I'm currently a C- ish level Terran player. I started a few months ago playing T and after well over 65% of my games played versus P, I'm still extremely clueless about TvP.
In almost every game I go for a 1 fact seige expo and then shortly go for a 5-fact timing push with vultures and tanks (sometimes turrets) shortly after the toss takes his 3rd. I mostly do this build because I'm extremely confused about how else to approach the game.
A few questions regarding my build:
1. Is it good to have weapons 1 researched before I move out? Sometimes (for experimentation) plop down an armory shortly after my 1st fact and start research weapons one, which is usually done before I move out. Is this recommended?
2. Is it good to have some goliaths and marines with you to scan down obs as I move along? I've seen some players scan their army to find obs and kill them. I usually conserve my scans to try to locate the toss' army. And sometimes I get unlucky and get caught off guard before I can lay mines and siege my tanks. Any tips?
3. I usually move my army towards the toss' third to take it out. Is there any advantage in going straight towards the main and containing?
4. What do I do against a player who refuses to take his 3rd? I usually stay in my base and macro off of 5-facts until the toss eventually decides to expo and then I move out.
5. What is the proper reaction to 2-base arbiter or early arbiter in general?
6. What are other viable ways to approach TvP?
I really can't express my hate towards this matchup. It seems so imba because of all the ways P can open (12 nexus, 2 gate pressure, DT, DT drop, reaver drop, even speedlot rush, which owned me a few days ago) and the T having to respond do it even after good scouting information, which can result in misinformation (cancelled air weapons, etc..). UGH. -_-
1. IMO it isn't good because you won't have enough units fast enough, for a timing push you would want the most units you absoultely can 2. idk this, can't answer 3. I usually like to push to their base and then send a small group of units to take out the expo since the point of a 5 fact timing push is to attack when they don't have that many units yet. 4. Add a 6th fact and macro 5. idk this either 6. you can turtle up and take bases like the way flash does, or just harass a lot like fantasy.
Keep in mind this is from my experience of playing against T in TvP. 1. It depends on whether or not you have a small lead in the game. If you're a bit ahead then that +1 weapons won't set you back much, but WILL make a difference when engaging the toss army. However if you're behind a bit or at even footing, then no it wouldn't be a good idea to research +1 weapons until later. 2. Ob's are cheap and easy to make, and will often be there en masse. It isn't much of an annoyance for me to get my obs sniped since i normally have 3 or 4 sitting right inside my nat, ready to go replace the old ones. Because of that, you just have to accept that mid game any toss over D is going to be using obs all over the map - you can't have too many of them. 3. This depends on whether or not he has strongly reinforced his 3rd, or if he has scouted your army and moved out to flank you. Setting up a contain can potentially be bad because if you aren't perfectly aware of where his army is than you can get flanked from several sides at once, which is obviously very bad for you. If you know where his army is, or if it is inside his nat, then yes, a contain would be a very good idea. Send your reinforcements to his 3rd though, because he can't exactly stop them. It would make sense to snipe them if you were going for something a bit unexpected, however considering most players won't send their gols out in front of their main army just to snipe obs, which will lose them precious seconds, i don't see the point as they will see your army anyway when it moves under the obs to snipe them. 4. Either alter your build to try to tech faster - i.e. throw your starport and get a science facility, because he will probably be doing something unexpected, or try to expand yourself. In a more ballsy fashion, you could try to contain him and expand at the same time, which is risking a lot for yourself, but if you pull it off you will get a free third expansion to his two. 5. This is totally reliant on your scouting. If you don't manage to catch the arbiter before you have a clocked army knocking on your door, than i would recommend immediately throwing down your science facility (assuming you have a starport at this point...) and trying to hold him off with scans until you can get a science vessel out. Don't add too many goliaths to the mix, as vultures are generally better for harass, but keep them on their own seperate hotkey so you can try to snipe those arbs. I love it when i can keep my arbs safely cloaking my troops because the terran isn't microing his gols. 6. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Category:TvP_Builds
1. Is it good to have weapons 1 researched before I move out? Sometimes (for experimentation) plop down an armory shortly after my 1st fact and start research weapons one, which is usually done before I move out. Is this recommended?
This really depends, you have to sorta predict what type of expo he's going for. If he's going for no mid-game harrass and super fast 2nd nat, why get the armory? the +1 isn't even gonna be done by the time you push out. But if you do somehow think he's gonna take a later 2nd nat, then yea thats good get the +1 attack.
2. Is it good to have some goliaths and marines with you to scan down obs as I move along? I've seen some players scan their army to find obs and kill them. I usually conserve my scans to try to locate the toss' army. And sometimes I get unlucky and get caught off guard before I can lay mines and siege my tanks. Any tips?
Again this is situational, i usually like my scans to find his army. You don't want to get too many gols because 2 gols=1 less tank, plus the 2 gols are taking the time to produce while you cuold be making vults. I prefer SCV's to make turrets if its buildable on the map.
If ofcourse toss gets super fast 2nd, then this question is pointless, cuz you're not gonna be able to get an armory before you push out regardless.
3. I usually move my army towards the toss' third to take it out. Is there any advantage in going straight towards the main and containing?
Go for whatever is closer. If his nat is closer go for the nat, camp out while sending 1-2 tanks to attack his 2nd nat. If his 2nd nat is closer, take it out and run back home and play camp.
4. What do I do against a player who refuses to take his 3rd? I usually stay in my base and macro off of 5-facts until the toss eventually decides to expo and then I move out.
Thats good, yea you can add a 6th fac as well. If you have extra minerals also make a CC in ur base. Keep upgrading.
5. What is the proper reaction to 2-base arbiter or early arbiter in general?
Timing push, set pressure on him, and deny his expos by mining up the expos and sniping his early probes. Eventually though you'd have to try and snipe his arbs with gols/vessels. This can be tricky to play against, because if you see no 2nd natural, then perhaps he's just massing up units, or he might be going fast arbs. So better to always scan his base inside just to make sure he's not playing tricky like that.
6. What are other viable ways to approach TvP?
Some maps just don't favor timing pushes, such as colloseum. In that case you have to camp, get upgrades and play conservative. Like dhe95 say to play harrasive, i don't recommend it because you're winning off of the opponent's mistakes instead of being the better player.
I'll do what I can to answer the questions that I can, but I'll leave the ones that I don't know to someone more qualified.
On September 14 2009 01:07 asdfTT123 wrote: 1. Is it good to have weapons 1 researched before I move out? Sometimes (for experimentation) plop down an armory shortly after my 1st fact and start research weapons one, which is usually done before I move out. Is this recommended?
With a 5 fact push, you usually want to wait until about 50 supply to get your armory, not right after your first fact. The build is: 9 supply 11 rax 11 refinery 16 factory 16 supply 20 supply 31 cc 32 supply 34 ebay 39 2-3 turrets 46 supply 47 factory 50 refinery 50 armory 50 academy 54 supply 60 3 x facts
I think you're supposed to start +1 weaps as you move out. But maybe if you have a way to get +1 weaps to finish by the time you move out (by starting armory right after first fact), then I can't say that's better or worse. Someone who is better TvP could maybe shed some light on whether it's better to have the extra tank and vult/goliath that you lose by spending money on the upgrade.
On September 14 2009 01:07 asdfTT123 wrote: 3. I usually move my army towards the toss' third to take it out. Is there any advantage in going straight towards the main and containing?
I think you want to send it to whatever base is closest, whether it's a nat or the main. If you go for the nat and kill it, you've successfully performed your timing attack and made him pay for his expansion. If you go for his main, you contain his production facilities and can attack his nat (depending on where you siege and how quickly you push forward). If you managed to kill his army because he initially tried to break your contain and lost a bunch of his army, getting his gateways contained is a huge advantage because it makes it so much harder for him to flank you.
On September 14 2009 01:07 asdfTT123 wrote: 4. What do I do against a player who refuses to take his 3rd? I usually stay in my base and macro off of 5-facts until the toss eventually decides to expo and then I move out.
If he doesn't take his third, you are correct: just macro up. Except you want to move up to six factories. When he does eventually expand, that's the time for you to move out. A 2 base terran will typically be a little bit stronger than a 2 base toss, so as long as you don't get your army fucked, you should be glad he's not expanding sooner.
FYI I'm like C-/C with TvP so I'm around your level. But I'll share my thoughts on TvP and maybe you can take something away from it.
On September 14 2009 01:07 asdfTT123 wrote: 1. Is it good to have weapons 1 researched before I move out? Sometimes (for experimentation) plop down an armory shortly after my 1st fact and start research weapons one, which is usually done before I move out. Is this recommended?
2. Is it good to have some goliaths and marines with you to scan down obs as I move along? I've seen some players scan their army to find obs and kill them. I usually conserve my scans to try to locate the toss' army. And sometimes I get unlucky and get caught off guard before I can lay mines and siege my tanks. Any tips?
3. I usually move my army towards the toss' third to take it out. Is there any advantage in going straight towards the main and containing?
4. What do I do against a player who refuses to take his 3rd? I usually stay in my base and macro off of 5-facts until the toss eventually decides to expo and then I move out.
5. What is the proper reaction to 2-base arbiter or early arbiter in general?
6. What are other viable ways to approach TvP?
I really can't express my hate towards this matchup. It seems so imba because of all the ways P can open (12 nexus, 2 gate pressure, DT, DT drop, reaver drop, even speedlot rush, which owned me a few days ago) and the T having to respond do it even after good scouting information, which can result in misinformation (cancelled air weapons, etc..). UGH. -_-
1. I think it's ok both ways. Sometimes you can push with no golies and maybe just a handful of marines if you opened FD and kept most of your marines alive. Sometimes you push with only tank/vult for a super fast push. The problem with this is though, if you time your upgrade to finish in time for your 5 fac push, it'll be too slow if your opponent gets ultra greedy and you're forced to do a 4 fac push. i.e. You will be adapting your push timing depending on what protoss does so you cannot get your upgrade to finish at the "right" time 100%.
2. I think this is situational. The slower your push is, the more likely P will have shuttles. If you push and you have 4-6 marines or a few goliaths, it'll discourage P from getting a shuttle which makes your push that much more powerful. Of course, it's means if P goes straight-up zealot/goon, then you'll be relatively weaker. I get caught off guard like that occasionally too. Your best bet is to send out vultures in all directions before your tanks and lay mines as you go. That way, you'll lose the least amount of units possible even if you're caught off guard.
3. Go for whatever is closer.
4. This is really easy to deal with. They basically want to rape the terran push when they come out with their so-called 110 push. You just get 6 facs, wait in your base until you're somewhere around 150 or so (until you feel safe pushing out) and steamroll the other guy. Here, you definitely want to have golies with range. 2 base T > 2 base P so there's no need to worry about this.
5. I don't like fast arbiter builds =( I usually follow up with vessel tech and try to get emp more or less in time while turreting and mining up my base for possible recall. If they're on 2 bases, then you're economically ahead so you should have enough units to defend.
6. My approach to TvP is very harass oriented and aggressive but safe lol. I get vulture speed asap (sometimes I get it before siege when I open FD) and keeping poking the P to see if there's an opening. But at the very least, I'll be able to scout when protoss is taking his 3rd so I time my push according to that. I don't like doing all-in ish types of attack where you forego detection and armory for a stronger army although that's a fine card to use occasionally if you feel that your opponent is playing too greedy (assuming you play against them regularly). And on maps like Desti, I like using dropships to harass P's worker line. I think my favourite thing in all of SC is vultures raping probes (especially mines )
Honestly, I think even 12 nexus is ok to deal with. You probably won't be able to do any timing pushes but you can still abuse the fact that their obs is slow or they don't have as much units early game and try to do as much damage as possible. If you throw off the P with constant harass, they'll eventually screw up at the C levels. Just keep scouting P for as long as possible (like sending 2nd scv if your 1st one dies by clicking on minerals).
I hope I gave you some ideas to think about. I think sc is about finding your own style of play that works for you. This is the style that works for me =)
On September 14 2009 01:35 YPang wrote: Like dhe95 say to play harrasive, i don't recommend it because you're winning off of the opponent's mistakes instead of being the better player.
I disagree here. Making less mistakes than the other player IS being a better player. The other player has an equal chance to harass himself and whether or not he chooses to do it, that's his choice. If you purposely lead the game to be more demanding in terms of multitasking to force your opponent to make mistakes and profit from it, then you ARE the better player. That's why if I ever play someone amazing like JF and try my usual harass tactic against him it never works: because his multitasking is far superior to mine and so he is able to keep up and even overwhelmingly rape my attempts
On September 14 2009 01:52 infinity21 wrote: 1. I think it's ok both ways. Sometimes you can push with no golies and maybe just a handful of marines if you opened FD and kept most of your marines alive. Sometimes you push with only tank/vult for a super fast push. The problem with this is though, if you time your upgrade to finish in time for your 5 fac push, it'll be too slow if your opponent gets ultra greedy and you're forced to do a 4 fac push. i.e. You will be adapting your push timing depending on what protoss does so you cannot get your upgrade to finish at the "right" time 100%.
I have a question regarding how to time pushes (4/5/6). For a quick 4 or 5 fact push meant to attack before the third is running, what's the relative timing? If you are on 2 facts and you scout the protoss just starting his third, will adding 3 more facts immediately and moving out after the first round of vultures are produced be the "correct" timing, or is it already too late to start the factories then? I lose a lot by pushing too late because I'm not aware of the existence of a "trigger".
From Liquipedia it shows that a Nexus takes 120 time units, a Factory takes 80 and a Vulture takes 30. So, conceivably, one round of vults from a bunch of factories planted just as the toss is expanding would finish a few seconds before the 3rd finishes, which *sounds* like good timing to me, but in practice I usually still lose...
just in general 2 base timing pushes arent very good unless you got an advantage early on. protosses have gotten their builds/macro clean enough that timing windows are very very small. also 4 or 6 fac is almost always better than 5 fac.
On September 14 2009 01:07 asdfTT123 wrote: 1. Is it good to have weapons 1 researched before I move out? Sometimes (for experimentation) plop down an armory shortly after my 1st fact and start research weapons one, which is usually done before I move out. Is this recommended?
99% of the time no. timing is generally more important and its gotten to the point where a 2 base timing push is practically an allin. you're not even gonna want to build an armory if you can avoid it, just because you need to get factories up as soon as possible. but on some maps you can play a much more delayed 2 base timing push where you get a starport and drop harass while building up a much larger army off 2 base, when doing that you definitely want the +1 early, sometimes even waiting for 1/1 or +2 and attack right before 3 base arbiter kicks in.
2. Is it good to have some goliaths and marines with you to scan down obs as I move along? I've seen some players scan their army to find obs and kill them. I usually conserve my scans to try to locate the toss' army. And sometimes I get unlucky and get caught off guard before I can lay mines and siege my tanks. Any tips?
you should be keeping track of their army movement with mines for the most part, when you send out vultures to harass lay mines all over the middle. if they clear those all then yes you need to use scans to watch for them, otherwise its fine to scan for obs but like i said you dont really want to spend on an armory/goliaths in most 2 base timing pushes so you might have trouble killing obs. also bring 3-4 scvs for turrets.
3. I usually move my army towards the toss' third to take it out. Is there any advantage in going straight towards the main and containing?
depends alot on the map setup. if their third is far away from the rest of their base then you definitely want to go for their original main, as if you send your whole army to their third theyll just counter and you'll die. if they have no gateways/units at their third just send a tank and a couple vultures to kill it while you're setting up a contain and slowly pushing towards their natural.
4. What do I do against a player who refuses to take his 3rd? I usually stay in my base and macro off of 5-facts until the toss eventually decides to expo and then I move out.
set up a siege/turret/mine line and take your own third, unless its really hard to defend, and go starport+armories and into a normal macro game. if it is really hard to defend then you just need to wait longer, add a starport and dropship harass.
5. What is the proper reaction to 2-base arbiter or early arbiter in general?
most people will say timing push. dont. unless you got some kind of big advantage early, or the map has really short rush distances, there isnt actually a timing window. simply turtle and take your third base (off 4 fac or less) as quickly as you possible can. get vessels and 2 armory grades very fast, and mine/turret up your base. fantasy vs jangbi on chupung was perfect example of how to play vs this style.
6. What are other viable ways to approach TvP?
watch flash and fantasy vods, their general styles are really the only solid ways to play tvp. you really shouldnt be using 2 base timing pushes as a standard. its fine to mix in, or use as a reaction to situations where you have a macro advantage, but in general its not good.
On September 14 2009 03:38 IdrA wrote: just in general 2 base timing pushes arent very good unless you got an advantage early on. protosses have gotten their builds/macro clean enough that timing windows are very very small. also 4 or 6 fac is almost always better than 5 fac.
On September 14 2009 01:07 asdfTT123 wrote: 1. Is it good to have weapons 1 researched before I move out? Sometimes (for experimentation) plop down an armory shortly after my 1st fact and start research weapons one, which is usually done before I move out. Is this recommended?
99% of the time no. timing is generally more important and its gotten to the point where a 2 base timing push is practically an allin. you're not even gonna want to build an armory if you can avoid it, just because you need to get factories up as soon as possible. but on some maps you can play a much more delayed 2 base timing push where you get a starport and drop harass while building up a much larger army off 2 base, when doing that you definitely want the +1 early, sometimes even waiting for 1/1 or +2 and attack right before 3 base arbiter kicks in.
2. Is it good to have some goliaths and marines with you to scan down obs as I move along? I've seen some players scan their army to find obs and kill them. I usually conserve my scans to try to locate the toss' army. And sometimes I get unlucky and get caught off guard before I can lay mines and siege my tanks. Any tips?
you should be keeping track of their army movement with mines for the most part, when you send out vultures to harass lay mines all over the middle. if they clear those all then yes you need to use scans to watch for them, otherwise its fine to scan for obs but like i said you dont really want to spend on an armory/goliaths in most 2 base timing pushes so you might have trouble killing obs. also bring 3-4 scvs for turrets.
3. I usually move my army towards the toss' third to take it out. Is there any advantage in going straight towards the main and containing?
depends alot on the map setup. if their third is far away from the rest of their base then you definitely want to go for their original main, as if you send your whole army to their third theyll just counter and you'll die. if they have no gateways/units at their third just send a tank and a couple vultures to kill it while you're setting up a contain and slowly pushing towards their natural.
4. What do I do against a player who refuses to take his 3rd? I usually stay in my base and macro off of 5-facts until the toss eventually decides to expo and then I move out.
set up a siege/turret/mine line and take your own third, unless its really hard to defend, and go starport+armories and into a normal macro game. if it is really hard to defend then you just need to wait longer, add a starport and dropship harass.
5. What is the proper reaction to 2-base arbiter or early arbiter in general?
most people will say timing push. dont. unless you got some kind of big advantage early, or the map has really short rush distances, there isnt actually a timing window. simply turtle and take your third base (off 4 fac or less) as quickly as you possible can. get vessels and 2 armory grades very fast, and mine/turret up your base. fantasy vs jangbi on chupung was perfect example of how to play vs this style.
watch flash and fantasy vods, their general styles are really the only solid ways to play tvp. you really shouldnt be using 2 base timing pushes as a standard. its fine to mix in, or use as a reaction to situations where you have a macro advantage, but in general its not good.
Wow Idra. I love it when do a round of threads on TL It ends all the pointless strategy forum debate
Thanks for your help, IdrA. I have been utilizing the 5 fact push as a standard and on a good day with decent mechanics its seemed to work pretty well at the D+/C- level on maps like destination.
Are you basically suggesting to go a more macro and turtle intensive route? I've tried utilizing this before I find it's very hard to harass a protoss that goes for cannon heavy expansions. On maps such as destination I take the easy to defend 3rd with my tank line stretching from my natural. I have a tough time against recall, mostly because I don't lay enough mines in my bases, but I find it extremely hard to fight off a toss that takes the entire map with cannons. How do you recommend combating this? Also, it it necessary to take a 4th base when utilizing this kind of build? Also, what are the proper timings for moving out? I know flash uses the 2-1 timing push, but what are other indicators for the beginning of your push?
hi would like to bump this thread re: pushing on Desti:
I played vs a C- highest toss (im D at the moment, 1st season iccup) and he went with 2 gate triple nexus (which i was too afraid scout for fear of heavygoon) and i went for the 6 fac push. I moved to his half of the map and was trying to hardpush into his army and got totally raped by zeals.
Me spawned bottom, toss spawned top
Question here is, where do i start setting up the slow push? I'm thinking of making an oblique line from the 2nd bridges to his right and shelling his gas from that side as that is the narrowest line possible, but that way i wont get leverage on his 3rd base, so what would be suggestion?
I also realised that his ridiculously fast expo meant a booming econ for him and a huge timing window that i obviously did not take advantage of.
i tried to ask the toss for his comments but he speaks spanish. i would say the average apms would be about 220ish for toss and 160 for myself. Thanks in advance =D
i think what idra is saying applies to progamers and A players.. for me as a C player i think timing pushes are still good and can still give you easy wins. i know that macroing up on 3-4 bases is also good but playing every TvP like that just makes me crazy.
On September 19 2009 02:02 JFKWT wrote: hi would like to bump this thread re: pushing on Desti:
I played vs a C- highest toss (im D at the moment, 1st season iccup) and he went with 2 gate triple nexus (which i was too afraid scout for fear of heavygoon) and i went for the 6 fac push. I moved to his half of the map and was trying to hardpush into his army and got totally raped by zeals.
Me spawned bottom, toss spawned top
Question here is, where do i start setting up the slow push? I'm thinking of making an oblique line from the 2nd bridges to his right and shelling his gas from that side as that is the narrowest line possible, but that way i wont get leverage on his 3rd base, so what would be suggestion?
I also realised that his ridiculously fast expo meant a booming econ for him and a huge timing window that i obviously did not take advantage of.
Rep here, please comment on the (several) mistakes that i have made thanks: <a href="http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=21206"><img src="http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/21206.jpg" /></a>
i tried to ask the toss for his comments but he speaks spanish. i would say the average apms would be about 220ish for toss and 160 for myself. Thanks in advance =D
rep link doesnt work but your push came too late. thats the danger of 6 fac. if they got the double expo up really fast and see your push coming they just cut probes and go 9 gate speedlot. against something like 2 gate triple nex with no tech its better to go fac cc fac and attack with 4 tanks 4 marines and rallied vultures, or something like that. the timing window comes very early, because the 3rd nexus and economy kick in so fast that your 6 fac push will be too late.
Hmm i'm having much problems with defending harass like DT drops and macro, but most problematic now are the push mechanics and defending arbs (which i assume that most D players have to overcome before going up to C and beyond).
im gona take another look at fantasy's tvps on desti and see if theres any optimal way to push into the P's half of the map since on desti they can just take a roundabout and counter your nat ez
EPT
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