DO NOT FLAME IN THIS THREAD. JUST PURE DISCUSSION.
So, Tossgirl finally got her first win after 1877 days (according to Fomos). But for those who have watched the match, you guys may have felt that it was fixed and stuff. There are quite a lot of clues, such as Reach's weird decision to expand at 1 island expo, losing shuttle easily, fast carrier, slow leg upgrades, bad micro, etc.
Another reason for this speculation is the recent article, where Reach apologised to Tossgirl and promised to create 'an interesting game'.
Netizen comments: - Poor Reach - Commentators please stop saying 'Good day for Tossgirl' repeatedly. It's annoying. - Well done Reach. You should at least let her win one game. - This is so embarassing... - Tossgirl was amazing... Reach how are you going to face everyone now? - YellOw > Reach > Tossgirl. This is the truth. - This is Reach's retirement match - THIS IS THE ROYAL DECREE - Tossgirl hwaiting! - Victory Tossgirl! - 2009, Best year ever! - The winner of this match doesn't matter you newbie - You've played long and hard... - Emotional victory.. + Show Spoiler +
- This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match - This is Reach's retirement match
The thing is that money was on the line. This tournament has the same prize as the OSL. If he beat her, he could've still made it out of his group. I doubt he cared enough about putting on a show to lose $40,000
On July 20 2009 20:40 konadora wrote: The whole thing just felt rather sloppy and lazy on Reach's part. It was almost like he didn't really care that much.
More likely, he just didn't practice very hard for this, and was practicing PvP for his match against Anytime instead, since he figured she would just fail at a cheese and be easy to roll.
On July 20 2009 20:40 konadora wrote: The whole thing just felt rather sloppy and lazy on Reach's part. It was almost like he didn't really care that much.
More likely, he just didn't practice very hard for this, and was practicing PvP for his match against Anytime instead, since he figured she would just fail at a cheese and be easy to roll.
That doesn't result in a steep decline is skill and decision-making...
Anyone find it really annoying how whenever people watch Tossgirl, they pick apart her game HARDCORE.. of course, shes not on a Bisu level, but shes pretty good. I dont see people looking at games from players such as go.go or type-b and other lesser-known pros and going "OMG he lost one scv, GG!" like they do with tossgirl. Tossgirl is trying her best, and while she may run a dropship into goons at times, while you all are going "OMG SHES A NEWB", Reach did the same thing losing a dropship earlier on to a turret, and no one said anything. Not fair.
I just hate the bias people have, im not saying shes the best thing ever or even top ~50, but she deserves respect for being the only female to even compete at this level. Still would probably be able to kill most or all foreigners.
All gaming shouldnt be segregated, because theres no advantage for Women or men. like I dont understand how much of CS teams are like, Either 100% female or 100% male. They should just have their tournaments based on the best teams get in.
I hope to see a really dominant SC2 female pro someday in the future.. It'd be nice to break this barrier.
Stop making up excuses and just face the truth that Reach underestimated her, and lost because he didn't bring his A-game.
Some people seems to have some dumb ass pride that a girl can never beat a guy in Starcraft without letting her win. Last time I checked men don't have a physical advantage over women in a computer game.
She played much better than expected. No cheese and all. Yes Reach could've done better but you have to give Tossgirl some credits. This also proves how important practice can be.
There was a point where Reach had a Shuttle with a Reaver in it just hanging out dancing around two Vultures and a Siege Tank, which were attacking his Nexus at 1:00. He waited until JUST AFTER the Nexus was destroyed to drop his Reaver and kill the Tank. Maybe he was afraid of dropping on spider mines, but it looked to me as if he was intentionally not playing his hardest (throwing the game, or at least that battle).
Also, consider the following scenario: Reach: Sorry I forgot to play an entertaining game in Germany. Tossgirl: That's okay, we'll play one in the e-Stars Heritage match. You let me get ahead three bases to one, and then I'll let you come back for the victory. Reach: Okay, sounds good. I will not play my hardest, in order to make this an interesting game and thereby atone for the sins of my past. Tossgirl: Sure, whatever. Just be sure to get Carriers for the comeback, and I'll make sure not to get any Goliaths.
*Game begins*
Reach: Okay, now Tossgirl has three bases, so I will get Carriers and come back. Tossgirl: Ha ha, Reach is so gullible--he will die at my hands. Your Carriers melt against my Goliaths!
This would be what we call payback. It didn't happen exactly that way, of course. Maybe it didn't happen like that at all. But at this point, I don't believe Reach was playing his hardest. I want to believe it--I want it to be the case that Tossgirl won fair and square--but it looks to me as though Reach made more mistakes than we would expect him to. If I'm wrong, congrats to Tossgirl on beating a legend.
You seriously think that Reach would throw away a game with that much money on the line not to mention his reputation? And for what; Tossgirl's gratitude? Not sure if that it is worth $40k, but maybe you have a different opinion.
I don't think it was fixed. I do agree Reach did play somewhat sloppy though. He could have played better but hes not unbeatable. Tossgirl is not the greatest progamer but she definitely has the ability to win. Also she said shes been practicing really hard for this league so I guess it's paying off for her.
I think the worst conclusion I could come to is that Reach felt bad about breaking his promise earlier and wanted to go a little easy on her but I don't think for a second he would throw the game on purpose. Nor do I really believe that he wanted to take it easy on her but at worst perhaps thats what it was. To me though it doesn't change much. I still think Mantoss is a bamf.
The way I see it, we have two possible scenarios: 1) Reach DID play his hardest, or 2) Reach DID NOT play his hardest. Let's look at what we know and see if one or both of the scenarios fits them:
Supporting scenario 1: -Reach has been out of the pro scene for some time and could be getting rusty. -Likely did not prepare hard for this specific game against Tossgirl. -Tossgirl could have a grudge against Reach after the Germany situation (where Reach forgot or got nervous and didn't play an entertaining game), so she practiced extra hard to get revenge. -$40,000 and his reputation were on the line.
Supporting scenario 2: -Reach was "in Tossgirl's debt" after the Germany situation, and may have wanted to make amends. -Various uncharacteristic mistakes Reach made during the game: --Bulldogging, and failing at it. The greater player failing a cheesy strategy against the lesser player would make the most believable upset imo (sorry if bulldogging isn't considered cheese). --Expanding at the 1:00 island. --Dropping the Reaver to kill the Tank just after his Nexus at 1:00 was destroyed (I think he could have saved it in time). --Attacking with Carriers and Dragoons, but pulling back his Dragoons to let his Carriers die from Goliath fire (granted, there were Siege Tanks to run from). -Could have been played by Tossgirl in a situation like the fake one that I made up in my previous post. -Tossgirl doesn't win much.
Feel free to add to or criticize these points. Like konadora, I just want discussion. I don't know anything about Reach's economic situation or upbringing, but he might come from a very wealthy family or think that keeping his word is more important than a 1-in-9 chance at $40,000. Also, Reach had two reputations on the line: one as a "gentleman" or whatever you want to call it, and one as a StarCraft player. He may have felt that he had to choose between the two for this match. What we should probably do is look through Reach's past games, especially his other game this tournament, and see if his mistakes there compare to the ones he made against Tossgirl. I don't think I'm qualified to do so (D- player). At this point I don't think there is conclusive evidence one way or the other, but I'm still leaning toward Reach not having played his hardest.
aye..there would be absolutely no reason for him to lose to tossgirl intentionally considering the number of players who had to retire after losing to her...
and also, lots of players have bad games where they make lots of mistakes. this is no different. people would not be saying reach threw it if was any player but tossgirl
Imagine how tossgirl is feeling about this (hearing that her that the win wasn't a honest one) We should be having a hype thread instead of having a rumor thread.
On July 20 2009 23:51 JWD wrote: Reach badly needed this win to advance from his group in SHL...his motivation to win the game was much, much stronger than any motivation to lose it.
Exactly. There was a large cash prize, prestige, and his reputation on the line. No way he meant to lose that game. At the VERY WORST, he may not have fully prepared because he underestimated her, and wasn't fully concentrating early on because of the epic fails he witnessed from her recently. After that, you can blame his slipups to panic.
He simply threw it theres no other alternative in my eyes.
Reach even though hes in ace and isnt that hot anymore still got a sexy PvT (sure hes no stork or jangbi but hes good) while tossgirl is FUCKING HORRIBLE in all matchups(heard that she might be half decent vs z but not to sure of that.
Add in all the dumb mistakes he made and yeah... it all adds up to him throwing it.
EDIT: I can accept that he went soft on her to make up for all that earlier shit but then got overwhelmed. tough that still qualifies as throwing it for me.
I think E-sports is fully recognized as a sport in Korea (it is in China at least), and match fixing in sports is illegal in pretty much every country in the world. So, people in this thread is pretty much accusing Reach for being a criminal.
Reach not saving the nexus with his reaver: Even if he killed the tank before the tank killed the nexus, it wouldn't have mattered the slightest. He ended up killing that tank anyway, and still failed to secure the expansion. By the time tossgirl floated over her CC, that nexus would be dead one way or another and Reach knows that. It wasn't high priority as long as he kills the tank.
Reach expanding at 1'o clock: At the time it probably felt like a good idea as a hidden expo. Tossgirl did not find that expo until her dropship was returning and met an unexpected goon which almost sniped the decelerating dropship. She would never have found it if it weren't for the drop, and even then had a good chance of not finding it. That expo would be easy to defend once the Carriers were out.
I'm not saying "Reach did this and that, so this was definitely fixed". I'm just saying that "this and this factors all combined highly seems likely that it was match-fixing (or Reach just giving the match away)." I'm not dead set on believing that Reach did it. It's just.. compared to his normal games, I can't help but think about it.
On July 21 2009 00:43 nexusil wrote: Reach not saving the nexus with his reaver: Even if he killed the tank before the tank killed the nexus, it wouldn't have mattered the slightest. He ended up killing that tank anyway, and still failed to secure the expansion. By the time tossgirl floated over her CC, that nexus would be dead one way or another and Reach knows that. It wasn't high priority as long as he kills the tank.
Reach expanding at 1'o clock: At the time it probably felt like a good idea as a hidden expo. Tossgirl did not find that expo until her dropship was returning and met an unexpected goon which almost sniped the decelerating dropship. She would never have found it if it weren't for the drop, and even then had a good chance of not finding it. That expo would be easy to defend once the Carriers were out.
Fair enough reason, but for the expo issue, Tossgirl spawned at 1. Siege tank and turret near the cliff and slowly transfer tanks to the island. Nat easily destroyed. If Tossgirl spawned at let's say, 7 or 9, this would have been more understandable. Of course, Reach may not have anticipated Tossgirl to go for dropships, but seeing how many games were played on that map, as well as the close position spawns, he should have known that.
On July 21 2009 00:43 nexusil wrote: Reach not saving the nexus with his reaver: Even if he killed the tank before the tank killed the nexus, it wouldn't have mattered the slightest. He ended up killing that tank anyway, and still failed to secure the expansion. By the time tossgirl floated over her CC, that nexus would be dead one way or another and Reach knows that. It wasn't high priority as long as he kills the tank.
Reach expanding at 1'o clock: At the time it probably felt like a good idea as a hidden expo. Tossgirl did not find that expo until her dropship was returning and met an unexpected goon which almost sniped the decelerating dropship. She would never have found it if it weren't for the drop, and even then had a good chance of not finding it. That expo would be easy to defend once the Carriers were out.
Fair enough reason, but for the expo issue, Tossgirl spawned at 1. Siege tank and turret near the cliff and slowly transfer tanks to the island. Nat easily destroyed. If Tossgirl spawned at let's say, 7 or 9, this would have been more understandable. Of course, Reach may not have anticipated Tossgirl to go for dropships, but seeing how many games were played on that map, as well as the close position spawns, he should have known that.
Yeah maybe Reach thought she would play in the same fashion as Boxer because she didn´t cheese either, expanding to the bottom and securing with a tankline. Reach was going for a early game economical lead. Maybe he didn´t think Tossgirl would go for air at all when she built all those turrets and didn´t get a Dship that fast.
I think Reach is the Man but god it was a sloppy game from him, no HTs no ground units. And that was also the best game from Tossgirl I have ever seen, she didn´t make that many bad mistakes.
Reach recently lost to tiny in a series. That's far worse, to me, than to lose to tossgirl. At this point, she's only being stigmatized for being female. Tossgirl is basically either at an average b-teamer level or just slightly above it. There are way worse players out there. Cat, for instance is like 0-5 in minor league. (I think he's neo.g.minam now.) Even very good players can lose to b-teamers in bo1 matches, and being in ACE guarantees that Reach might only have 50% of the practice time tossgirl does (she recently mentioned she's practicing 14 hours a day for this tournament, ACE members have 8 hours I think) and might not have as good practice partners. What terrans are on ace? Casy? Cloud? Ruby is there, but i don't think he's even done with basic yet. I LB tossgirl because I thought she'd be able to take one of the ACE players in this tournament. I do think that tossgirl would benefit from being on a team that actually participates in minor league, though.
I think it is likely that Reach thought he could pretty much get away with anything against Tossgirl, like expanding at 1'o clock. Which made it so much sweater when she stole the expansion from him.
On July 21 2009 01:34 Nevuk wrote: Reach recently lost to tiny in a series. That's far worse, to me, than to lose to tossgirl. At this point, she's only being stigmatized for being female. Tossgirl is basically either at an average b-teamer level or just slightly above it. There are way worse players out there. Cat, for instance is like 0-5 in minor league. (I think he's neo.g.minam now.) Even very good players can lose to b-teamers in bo1 matches, and being in ACE guarantees that Reach might only have 50% of the practice time tossgirl does (she recently mentioned she's practicing 14 hours a day for this tournament, ACE members have 8 hours I think) and might not have as good practice partners. What terrans are on ace? Casy? Cloud? Ruby is there, but i don't think he's even done with basic yet. I LB tossgirl because I thought she'd be able to take one of the ACE players in this tournament. I do think that tossgirl would benefit from being on a team that actually participates in minor league, though.
Reach losing to Tossgirl isn't really what's upsetting me, it's just how Reach played so bad as compared to when he usually does, as though to throw away the game. Most, if not all his decision making was poor and bad.
On July 20 2009 21:19 Eury wrote: You seriously think that Reach would throw away a game with that much money on the line not to mention his reputation? And for what; Tossgirl's gratitude? Not sure if that it is worth $40k, but maybe you have a different opinion.
the power of a women is not how well she plays, but in the bed.
On July 21 2009 00:43 nexusil wrote: Reach not saving the nexus with his reaver: Even if he killed the tank before the tank killed the nexus, it wouldn't have mattered the slightest. He ended up killing that tank anyway, and still failed to secure the expansion. By the time tossgirl floated over her CC, that nexus would be dead one way or another and Reach knows that. It wasn't high priority as long as he kills the tank.
Reach expanding at 1'o clock: At the time it probably felt like a good idea as a hidden expo. Tossgirl did not find that expo until her dropship was returning and met an unexpected goon which almost sniped the decelerating dropship. She would never have found it if it weren't for the drop, and even then had a good chance of not finding it. That expo would be easy to defend once the Carriers were out.
Fair enough reason, but for the expo issue, Tossgirl spawned at 1. Siege tank and turret near the cliff and slowly transfer tanks to the island. Nat easily destroyed. If Tossgirl spawned at let's say, 7 or 9, this would have been more understandable. Of course, Reach may not have anticipated Tossgirl to go for dropships, but seeing how many games were played on that map, as well as the close position spawns, he should have known that.
maybe he thought it would be a nice secret expo, close for the drop.
On July 21 2009 01:38 laLAlA[uC] wrote: Tossgirl won cause I liquibetted on her. ;D
But seriously, Reach played really sloppy and Tossgirl pretty well (for her standards), but thinking that Reach dropped this game on purpose is just wrong, and kinda ridiculous.
On July 20 2009 23:51 JWD wrote: Reach badly needed this win to advance from his group in SHL...his motivation to win the game was much, much stronger than any motivation to lose it.
Exactly. There was a large cash prize, prestige, and his reputation on the line. No way he meant to lose that game. At the VERY WORST, he may not have fully prepared because he underestimated her, and wasn't fully concentrating early on because of the epic fails he witnessed from her recently. After that, you can blame his slipups to panic.
aye..it makes no sense to lose a match that was do or die in a sense. he needed to win it to get into the finals
On July 20 2009 20:40 konadora wrote: The whole thing just felt rather sloppy and lazy on Reach's part. It was almost like he didn't really care that much.
Yeah, I don't think the match was a set up. I dunno why such conspiracy theories should even warrant a thread of their own to be honest.
He lost to Tossgirl, yeah so what. He played bad, and she played decently. People are being ridiculousy biased against her because she's a girl.
On July 21 2009 01:34 Nevuk wrote: Reach recently lost to tiny in a series. That's far worse, to me, than to lose to tossgirl. At this point, she's only being stigmatized for being female. Tossgirl is basically either at an average b-teamer level or just slightly above it. There are way worse players out there. Cat, for instance is like 0-5 in minor league. (I think he's neo.g.minam now.) Even very good players can lose to b-teamers in bo1 matches, and being in ACE guarantees that Reach might only have 50% of the practice time tossgirl does (she recently mentioned she's practicing 14 hours a day for this tournament, ACE members have 8 hours I think) and might not have as good practice partners. What terrans are on ace? Casy? Cloud? Ruby is there, but i don't think he's even done with basic yet. I LB tossgirl because I thought she'd be able to take one of the ACE players in this tournament. I do think that tossgirl would benefit from being on a team that actually participates in minor league, though.
Reach losing to Tossgirl isn't really what's upsetting me, it's just how Reach played so bad as compared to when he usually does, as though to throw away the game. Most, if not all his decision making was poor and bad.
Yeah but I bet it upsets you ten times more that he lost to Tossgirl though. I think this thread is a bit awkward to be honest. First of all you're accusing Reach of throwing games, second you make a big deal out of him loosing to a female progamer.
It's not about being a gentleman. The other game was a showmatch! Nothing on the line. Why in hell would Reach throw away an individual league tourney game to make up for a foreigner showmatch? And why would it be compelling evidence to say it's Reach's retirement match? What man do you know says he wants to end his career on a loss?
On July 21 2009 03:58 BisuBoi wrote: It's not about being a gentleman. The other game was a showmatch! Nothing on the line. Why in hell would Reach throw away an individual league tourney game to make up for a foreigner showmatch? And why would it be compelling evidence to say it's Reach's retirement match? What man do you know says he wants to end his career on a loss?
On July 21 2009 03:58 BisuBoi wrote: It's not about being a gentleman. The other game was a showmatch! Nothing on the line. Why in hell would Reach throw away an individual league tourney game to make up for a foreigner showmatch? And why would it be compelling evidence to say it's Reach's retirement match? What man do you know says he wants to end his career on a loss?
There's no way it was fixed, Reach probably did not put much time into practicing python of all maps for a game against tossgirl. He just decided he'd do a pretty standard island expand after reaver harrass not expecting her to get a fast starport. The only thing that was really bad was his shuttle control.
But assuming he did nothing with his reaver and still lost that shuttle earlier, had tossgirl not gone dropships he still probably would have won despite playing an awful game overall
On July 20 2009 23:51 JWD wrote: Reach badly needed this win to advance in SHL...his motivation to win the game was much, much stronger than any motivation to lose it.
This motivation that u r speaking off wasn't reflected in any ways in the game he played against tossgirl.
after reading tossgirls interview and reach's response, it makes u wonder if rigging games are a normal things in the pro-gaming scene in korea, let me put it this way:
tossgirl asked reach to play in a certain way to entertain the crowd, and thus rigging the game, reach didn't rig the game and opted to play fair, and now tossgirl well... kinda bitched about reach, and Reach almost immediate response to that is apologies? why the fuck would u apologize for playing a match fairly? sportsmanship outweighs personal promises no matter how u look at it, unless if reach felt bad for not rigging a game like he was supposed to.
On July 20 2009 23:51 JWD wrote: Reach badly needed this win to advance in SHL...his motivation to win the game was much, much stronger than any motivation to lose it.
This motivation that u r speaking off wasn't reflected in any ways in the game he played against tossgirl.
after reading tossgirls interview and reach's response, it makes u wonder if rigging games are a normal things in the pro-gaming scene in korea, let me put it this way:
tossgirl asked reach to play in a certain way to entertain the crowd, and thus rigging the game, reach didn't rig the game and opted to play fair, and now tossgirl well... kinda bitched about reach, and Reach almost immediate response to that is apologies? why the fuck would u apologize for playing a match fairly? sportsmanship outweighs personal promises no matter how u look at it, unless if reach felt bad for not rigging a game like he was supposed to.
she played well and he played bad? thats all it is. progamers will lose to eachother all the time in practice...dont know why its so hard for people to accept that she won
Oh and to those people who whine about all the tossgirl bashing is becuase shes a girl... well hell no i bet most people just say the stuff they do becuase shes REALLY REALLY BAD.
Yea she plays decently sometimes but so what ive seen players like Zergbong and frozean pull out some way better stuff than that and one is generally agreed to be shit while the other is considered medicore.
Tossgirl is obviously not the best player there and I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, but she played a decent game against Reach, who apparently thought he could just walk through it.
She did many things right, including being very careful with her pushes, mine placements, turret positioning and unit composition.
On the other hand, Reach (carelessly) streamed units at her in the early-game, just expecting her to crumble.
One tiny detail that adds to the case against this match being rigged beforehand - look how nervous she was before the game (and during the game also. You could see how tense she got after she first pushed back Reach's carriers). She even forgot to put her earphones in. :D
Honestly, I was torn about this game. I mean, I love to see the Mantoss do well, but Tossgirl just really needed this win. It must really suck to be the one person every progamer is embarrassed to lose against.
Okay I watched the VOD (thanks Woody) and whatever it was that seemed fishy the first time I watched it didn't seem so suspicious this time around. Innocent until proven guilty, and I'll let someone else take the helm if they want to prove anything. Congrats on a game well played, Tossgirl.
I don't know where you guys are getting the idea of rigging or throwing away meaningful matches from. This tournament is KeSPA sponsored and has a large prize pool - there is no reason anyone would rig this match.
The game in question between Reach and Tossgirl was a showmatch in Germany for foreigners. Tossgirl and Reach came up with a plan beforehand to show an entertaining game with a lot of tricks for foreigners, and Reach backed off on the idea as the game started and ended up winning. The game had no meaning other than the foreigners' enjoyment at that time. There was no money, fame or rankings involved. There simply is no similarities between that situation and now.
From the Yellow interview it sounded like the ACE players haven't been able to practice very well lately, that could be the reason for his performance in this game.
If thinking it was rigged helps you sleep at night, whatever. I for one am getting so annoyed at every week there being a new "omg XXXX threw the match" conspiracy. You don't throw a match that can win you 40,000 against Tossgirl who everyone in the world will rag on you for losing to.
On July 21 2009 01:34 Nevuk wrote: Reach recently lost to tiny in a series. That's far worse, to me, than to lose to tossgirl. At this point, she's only being stigmatized for being female. Tossgirl is basically either at an average b-teamer level or just slightly above it. There are way worse players out there. Cat, for instance is like 0-5 in minor league. (I think he's neo.g.minam now.) Even very good players can lose to b-teamers in bo1 matches, and being in ACE guarantees that Reach might only have 50% of the practice time tossgirl does (she recently mentioned she's practicing 14 hours a day for this tournament, ACE members have 8 hours I think) and might not have as good practice partners. What terrans are on ace? Casy? Cloud? Ruby is there, but i don't think he's even done with basic yet. I LB tossgirl because I thought she'd be able to take one of the ACE players in this tournament. I do think that tossgirl would benefit from being on a team that actually participates in minor league, though.
Reach losing to Tossgirl isn't really what's upsetting me, it's just how Reach played so bad as compared to when he usually does, as though to throw away the game. Most, if not all his decision making was poor and bad.
You are really making Reach seem better than he actually is. He's been shaky for years, and has a negative score for 2009, definitely not a top-player.
There's no reason to think the game was set up - Tossgirl played what was probably the best game of her career, doing most things right and having quite good micro (only thing I really thought she was lacking was more scouting). Reach couldn't really get past her defenses (turret placement was good btw), but still managed to pressure her enough for people to claim she'd already lost about halfway through the game. But she managed to keep her calm and push to victory in a convincing manner. Seriously, she played a good game with solid TvP, and all people can do is call it rigged. Give her some credit for beating someone noone thought she would instead of just making lame excuses about it.
She said she practiced alot to win the games and more than her micro, it was her defense and her macro that got her victory in my opinion. She played a very good game, and if she weren't tossgirl, no one would even bring up the thought of rigging the game.
Reach chose a bad strategy, executed badly and consequently lost. He looked bad, but it didn't look THAT bad.
There was only one moment where i thought Reach is winning, that was when the first real push pf Tossgirl was stopped by Carrier/goon/zeal. The rest of the game Tossgirl was simply ahead. Faster expo, better harass while defending very well, decent scouting and good counters to Reachs gameplan.
Was it just me or did Reach did not look disappointed or mad at all? If I were as good as Reach, and lost to TossGirl, i woulda cried. I think Reach just severely underestimated TossGirl and paid the price, but i dont know.
On July 20 2009 20:53 Eury wrote: Stop making up excuses and just face the truth that Reach underestimated her, and lost because he didn't bring his A-game.
Some people seems to have some dumb ass pride that a girl can never beat a guy in Starcraft without letting her win. Last time I checked men don't have a physical advantage over women in a computer game.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this...
edit - she probably just kicked it up a notch after her embarassing match vs YellOw...you can't lie and say she didn't play at least somewhat well this round, and Reach kinda F'ed up in more than one spot.
Remember all the Shuttle and Memory upsets in Gom TV? Upsets. That's all this was, there was no BS rigging or any of that crap. Get off it.
On July 21 2009 07:28 Pieguy314 wrote: Anybody notice the "no gg" at the end?
the little thing that looks like a L is used as "no" in korean
That smelled fishy for me aswell, in case anyone is wondering the "ㄴ" is positioned where our "s" is and koreans often type that ㄴgg after cheese losses or BM, the nogg was absolutely intentional.
the most convincing part is the goons that dont attack expo bottom right and stay without moving for 30sd, and carrier who dont finish expo top right. He throw it away, that's all, but if I was reach, maybe I would have feel the same because I have a crush on tossgirl, Tossgirl understood that perfectly that's why she said the L gg at the end.
Someone talks about the shuttle dancing... well maybe you forgot that there is a tank on the cliff ? he wants to drop reaver but see the tank on cliff, that's why he comes back to drop a safe place.
On July 21 2009 08:42 Tonyoh wrote: the most convincing part is the goons that dont attack expo bottom right and stay without moving for 30sd, and carrier who dont finish expo top right. He throw it away, that's all, but if I was reach, maybe I would have feel the same because I have a crush on tossgirl, Tossgirl understood that perfectly that's why she said the L gg at the end.
Someone talk about the shuttle dancing... well maybe you forgot that there is a tank on the clif ? he want to drop reaver but see the tank on cliff, that's why he comes back to drop a safe place.
thats ridiculous. i think the best explanation is he under estimated her and ended up losing
what i think is that reach got just a bit cocky by expanding to the upper right, thinking that tossgirl couldn't atk it, but not only was he wrong and lost an expansion, he also lost a shitload of units trying to defend it
On July 20 2009 20:40 konadora wrote: The whole thing just felt rather sloppy and lazy on Reach's part. It was almost like he didn't really care that much.
get used to it, he's in ACE
btw he's just trying to see new ways of playing like boxer... i'd give him more credit for doing interesting stuff.
Maybe, just maybe, he's trying to get rid of the 1a2a3a mentality? who knows
On July 20 2009 20:52 Skyze wrote: Anyone find it really annoying how whenever people watch Tossgirl, they pick apart her game HARDCORE.. of course, shes not on a Bisu level, but shes pretty good. I dont see people looking at games from players such as go.go or type-b and other lesser-known pros and going "OMG he lost one scv, GG!" like they do with tossgirl. Tossgirl is trying her best, and while she may run a dropship into goons at times, while you all are going "OMG SHES A NEWB", Reach did the same thing losing a dropship earlier on to a turret, and no one said anything. Not fair.
I just hate the bias people have, im not saying shes the best thing ever or even top ~50, but she deserves respect for being the only female to even compete at this level. Still would probably be able to kill most or all foreigners.
All gaming shouldnt be segregated, because theres no advantage for Women or men. like I dont understand how much of CS teams are like, Either 100% female or 100% male. They should just have their tournaments based on the best teams get in.
I hope to see a really dominant SC2 female pro someday in the future.. It'd be nice to break this barrier.
They pick apart tossgirl because tossgirl is a the best GIRL in the world, and yet still vastly vastly inferior to the players you put forth as an example, type-b or go.go. She wouldn't even be on the A team on any other team in PL, and the only reason she is for stx- is because they don't have a B team. She is BAD. At that, shes been a pro gamer for a looooooooooong time, so theres no excuse other than a complete lack of skill. Thus? We have a crappy [though hot] female gamer who refuses to retire- because shes hot and knows the job will get her some mild attention in the media. THATS why people criticize her.
Edit: Tossgirl is more akin to pepe than any other pro gamer. A shitty terran that refuses to go away. If pepe beat reach, people would be calling 1) Reach terrible 2) Reach giving the match away for some reason, AND there wouldn't be anyone piping up touting pepe's skill and how we are all overly cruel and critical of him, either. EVERYONE would agree that Reach was either losing any claim at being a legitimate A team pro gamer, or that he threw the match. Tossgirl is being defended because she is a girl, not attacked. Stop trying to be the knight in shining armour and admit the truth, she fucking sucks, and so does reach for losing to her [either cause it was a true defeat or he 'sucks' for being a big enough of a douche to throw a match].
On one hand, I am sure it wasn't fixed in the sense of agreed upon before the match. Tossgirl would probably never agree to such a thing, plus it would have been an utter insult to her, and also to the spectators and fans.
On the other hand, their old game in Germany was supposed to be exactly like that. I don't know if it was for an important tournament with money rewards and all that, but even if it was just a show match, staging it is a terrible thing to do and it should piss out their fans. For that reason I am quite surprised that they even admit it was supposed to be staged.
In this heritage game there probably wasn't any fixing before-hand. It is still possible that Reach decided to give her the win on his own, but I doubt even that - because it would still piss her off if she suspected it even one bit... Reach wouldn't be so stupid to do that :p
Granted, he made some weird choices, but I think they were a result of him underrating her and thinking he would just get a quick win with fast expos and mass carriers.
I think it's fairly obvious that Reach didn't give it his best shot.
Look, he already lost 2 games; therefore, technically he's out. So, the idea of him tossing this one to Tossgirl after apologizing to her shouldn't come as a surprise. This was his way of getting even with her.
-_-
EDIT: The game wasn't fixed per say. Reach chose a bad strategy and didn't put any effort into winning the game. Tossgirl had no prior knowledge of what he was going to do.
On July 21 2009 23:09 Showtime! wrote: I think it's fairly obvious that Reach didn't give it his best shot.
Look, he already lost 2 games; therefore, technically he's out. So, the idea of him tossing this one to Tossgirl after apologizing to her shouldn't come as a surprise. This was his way of getting even with her.
-_-
EDIT: The game wasn't fixed per say. Reach chose a bad strategy and didn't put any effort into winning the game. Tossgirl had no prior knowledge of what he was going to do.
Actually if Reach won, he would've still had a chance if (when) Boxer beats Yellow.
I'm not suggesting that the game was rigged, but its not hard to imagine some possible motives...
- What if STX offered Reach 5k for throwing the game? In all likelyhood, Reach isn't going to take 1st, and he probably knows it. This would give STX more publicity, Reach some cash, and give him an opportunity to fix things between him and Tossgirl.
- What if SHL offered both players a sum of money to let Tossgirl win? Everyone expects Reach to win, but look at how much discussion is generated when the girl wins.
The game probably wasn't rigged, but Reach played so poorly... it was like watching a progamer in slow motion.
edit: My bad everyone, i just heard this over battlenet last night and i thought it was a couple days ago. But ya Imo i think it is even more disrespectful that reach would not play his best knowing the fact that she would train super hard for this event.
Odd bump - but I wanted to chime in. I think it's rather strange that a translated interview with Tossgirl claims that Reach 'made a promise' to play a certain way.
From http://koreanprosc.com/?p=482: "We had promised on a certain game plan, to entertain the non-Korean fans. But he didn’t play as we promised and just did Shuttle attack!"
I really don't think it's kosher for supposed opponents to decide beforehand together what they're going to do.
EPT
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