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On January 13 2009 21:57 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 18:48 baubo wrote:On January 13 2009 13:56 mog87 wrote:On January 13 2009 12:02 Jyvblamo wrote:On January 13 2009 12:00 mog87 wrote:
cj is the deepest team in the league.
Savior, Effort, Iris,Xellos (lol? hes still there for like a month or so right?) Skyhigh, Movie, Much.
they also have up and comers and soso players like azang, memory, and darkelf. Xellos is gone. And no, Khan, MBC, SKT, Oz all have deeper line-ups than CJ (Azang and memory? They've never been good in PL). Stork-Jangbi-FBH-Frozean-Great Best-Bisu-Fantasy-Canata-Midas-Thezerg Pusan-Sea-Light-Saint-Ruby Jaedong-Forgg-Lomo-Backho-Hiya-Young Oh yea MBC is up there definetely. KHan...lol no they have the 3 big guns and the rest are mehhhhh.. SKT...SKT1 would have like 5 monsters if they actually played well. Current Midas is almost laughable considering how good he was just last season. Canata has the same problem. Fantasy is good...but a bit overrated and still a little green. Best..is vulnerable to a good zerg. Oz... has Jaedong and forgg(where has he been?), backho...is weird and sucks balls vs zerg, who knows what he will bring. Lomo hasnt been doing anything lately. Hiya is solid but in an average sort of way. Young..has barely done anything. CJ is definitely deeper than KHAN and Oz, but with people like Jaedong, Forgg Stork, and Jangbi they can all kill teams potentially, but my statement was that CJ had the deepest roster, which I believe is rivaled/surpassed only by MBC hero and an SKT1 with alot of its players back in form namely iloveoov, boxer, midas, and canata. Your idea of "depth" is pointless. Because when you only need 4 wins, you'll never send more than 4 players. For example, Khan's "big 4" are 49-24(67%). Who cares if the rest of their players are all worse than CJ's(if that is indeed the case)? It matters cause BeSt can rip through Samsung's line up for example. The more players you have the more option you have to snipe someones weakness.
But how much of a chance does a player who's not even the top 4 of his own team has against a player capable of "all-kill"? If Effort can't beat a player, for example, does that mean you should send Savior and then Kwanro? At some point MU becomes less of an issue than simple talent. There's a reason why both Stork and Best can put up good numbers against zerg despite being absolutely stiffs in the MU. They're simply such good players that their overall play can overcome their deficiencies in a particular MU.
I can understand depth when you're absolutely loaded, and have a plethora of good B/A class players. I think STX may fit the description. But that's about it.
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On January 14 2009 14:03 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 21:57 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 13 2009 18:48 baubo wrote:On January 13 2009 13:56 mog87 wrote:On January 13 2009 12:02 Jyvblamo wrote:On January 13 2009 12:00 mog87 wrote:
cj is the deepest team in the league.
Savior, Effort, Iris,Xellos (lol? hes still there for like a month or so right?) Skyhigh, Movie, Much.
they also have up and comers and soso players like azang, memory, and darkelf. Xellos is gone. And no, Khan, MBC, SKT, Oz all have deeper line-ups than CJ (Azang and memory? They've never been good in PL). Stork-Jangbi-FBH-Frozean-Great Best-Bisu-Fantasy-Canata-Midas-Thezerg Pusan-Sea-Light-Saint-Ruby Jaedong-Forgg-Lomo-Backho-Hiya-Young Oh yea MBC is up there definetely. KHan...lol no they have the 3 big guns and the rest are mehhhhh.. SKT...SKT1 would have like 5 monsters if they actually played well. Current Midas is almost laughable considering how good he was just last season. Canata has the same problem. Fantasy is good...but a bit overrated and still a little green. Best..is vulnerable to a good zerg. Oz... has Jaedong and forgg(where has he been?), backho...is weird and sucks balls vs zerg, who knows what he will bring. Lomo hasnt been doing anything lately. Hiya is solid but in an average sort of way. Young..has barely done anything. CJ is definitely deeper than KHAN and Oz, but with people like Jaedong, Forgg Stork, and Jangbi they can all kill teams potentially, but my statement was that CJ had the deepest roster, which I believe is rivaled/surpassed only by MBC hero and an SKT1 with alot of its players back in form namely iloveoov, boxer, midas, and canata. Your idea of "depth" is pointless. Because when you only need 4 wins, you'll never send more than 4 players. For example, Khan's "big 4" are 49-24(67%). Who cares if the rest of their players are all worse than CJ's(if that is indeed the case)? It matters cause BeSt can rip through Samsung's line up for example. The more players you have the more option you have to snipe someones weakness. But how much of a chance does a player who's not even the top 4 of his own team has against a player capable of "all-kill"? If Effort can't beat a player, for example, does that mean you should send Savior and then Kwanro? At some point MU becomes less of an issue than simple talent. There's a reason why both Stork and Best can put up good numbers against zerg despite being absolutely stiffs in the MU. They're simply such good players that their overall play can overcome their deficiencies in a particular MU. I can understand depth when you're absolutely loaded, and have a plethora of good B/A class players. I think STX may fit the description. But that's about it. would you really rather have fbh than great out against best?
you're right, there is a point where base skill overcomes weak matchups.. but the disparity we're talking about isnt that big here. that and i think you underestimate how much variance there can be between a player's matchups.
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I wasn't too sure about the all-kill format. But the more I think of it, the more I get excited.
The top 10 or so players will only become better because of it, as they will have to practice against all races at once and improve their endurance.
Lesser players are most likely to train against a specific race and/or on a specific map. This should result in epic snipes, so I think lesser players will benefit from this too, as stopping a 3-win-streak Jaedong would be insta fame.
And finally coaches are likely to have nightmares about when to have their Ace player in, or whether they should send their Ace or a sniper to take out another Ace.
Sad thing is, ACE is likely to get 0 wins (it would take a red hot  Anytime and  Casy or  OversKy to seal the deal), and teams like eSTRO and Woongjin, and probably WeMade will be torn apart.
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I would play this out like this:
If I would be STX-Coach:
STX has no real *All-Kill*-Player (no Flash/Jaedong/Bisu) but great Snipers...
Player 1: Calm (or some other guy, you just want someone that is not easy to snipe and plays a race that is suitable for the map - if he wins GREAT, if not - don't worry).
Then, just snipe after guy 1 loses (if the maps are balanced this should work out)...
Zerg = Kal (or Hwasin if the map is bad for Protoss).
Protoss = July (and hope that the map is no *BIG* Zerg graveyard  ).
Terran = Hwasin (or Kal... if the map is bad for Terran).
That’s really why I think STX will do fantastic in this, they can snipe about anything whiteout relying totally on one player. If Jaedong loses whiteout a win for Lecaf theire pretty fucked (well ForGG is there, but else?), same with KTFlash...
The other team I see doing really good is SKT1, they have no good Zerg but this won't hurt them as much in this round because Best/Bisu are capable of multiple/all kills - if Best does not get a strong Zerg to overcome (and there are not many such Zergs at the moment...).
I'm hyped :p
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True, this will hit the ACE team quite hard, since they have a noticable lack of "aces" (bad pun, sorry). I don't think Woongjin and WeMade will be that badly off. Free is capable of taking enough games for them to stand a chance at winning a few matches. And WeMade have a chance with Mind on their roster, and Nada hasn't been playing shabbily lately either (see the latest Stork vs Nada in proleague.)
But yeah, they will have a harder time winning matches than they have at the moment.
Oh! Didn't see they were bringing back Tau Cross. That's probably my second favorite map ever! Great to see it back in action, I liked the games played on it. (I basically started following SC esports in 2007, so I haven't experienced many of the older maps >.<)
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Im so excited about these series!
All-Kill FTW!!
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I don't think Wonngjin will do terribly. Free, ZerO, and GGPlay all have the ability to beat anyone. It will all depend on how they're playing that particular day.
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United States13896 Posts
On January 14 2009 17:56 Uraeus wrote:Sad thing is, ACE is likely to get 0 wins (it would take a red hot Anytime and Casy or OversKy to seal the deal), and teams like eSTRO and Woongjin, and probably WeMade will be torn apart.
Even a red hot Casy is going to lose 9 out of every 10 TvP's. Because of this I doubt he'll win more than one game in a row this round. OversKy and Anytime have decent shots at multiple game win streaks against weaker teams.
This helps ACE imo because if Anytime or OversKy are just 'on' when they play a lesser team like Woongjin/eSTRO two or three wins are not out of the question, and one player getting 3 wins would really help even the tables for Ace. I'll bet they win 1 or 2 matches this round, like usual.
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Depending on how big the pressure is on teams to win, this may lead to huge polarization in skill between different MUs of the same players.
Mainly lesser players, who will be trained specifically for one matchup.
A team that has 1-2 good all-round players, and the rest 1mu mercenaries would perform well imo.
You take the 1-0 lead, and simply keep the lead by sending out mercenaries depending on opponent.
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United States3824 Posts
EDIT
nvm I understand a little better now
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This setup is so much better, it really ups the amount of metagame involved rather then who has the most muscles in their line up.
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Huhuhu, so much diversity~
I wanna see July triple 5 pool a team...
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Will it last for 3 rounds or only for this round
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On January 16 2009 10:14 SuperJongMan wrote:
Huhuhu, so much diversity~
I wanna see July triple 5 pool a team...
I wanna see July owning:
Bisu - Probably the only toss with a *not negative* winrate gainst non-slumping July (this means since his last OSL win)
Best - The guy who gave him the Golden Mouse.
Oov - The guy who lost his invincibility to July and later denied him the Golden Mouse.
i can't imagine anyhting more exciting  .
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I honestly think STX is going to perform really well with this format, like some have said before me. If they can just get Hwasin/Kal/July to be good at the same time, and Calm at least 50%, I don't see any team with an advantage over them.
For example, I think SKT is going to do well against Khan, since Khan seems to lack a solution to Best/Bisu. OTOH, I think that Lecaf will do well against SKT, Jaedong can handle both Bisu and Best, and ForGG should be able to tie it up. But Samsung matches up really well against Lecaf, with FBH being a very good choice against Jaedong.
But STX is able to exploit almost every single MU. As long as Kal/Hwasin/July are playing well, I would hold them as slight favorite over any team, something I can't say for any other. Flash might be able to stop them, but realistically? 4 different maps, against strong players, with no sure way of knowing matchups in 3 of them. He wont be able to do it.
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So... I went to my first pro-league live game today and it was an all-kill format (Sparkz vs Woongjin Stars) - won't spoil the results here, but I was wondering how many people are living in Seoul and go to these things? I think it would be cool to go as a group every once in a while..
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51449 Posts
people usually have jobs etc so the only time foreigners go together are finals.
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This setup is soooooooooooo good. These games the past week have been much more exciting than the previous proleague games.
They should switch to this format all the time.
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EPT
