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On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote:
When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
Nony with all your respect... I cannot believe you think that way"Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring".
That's exactly why boxer is different from other pro gamers is for doing shit like that and playing different than others. What is so exciting about Bisu being perfect? bisu doing the same build over and over again and winning just because he is faster and he can multitask better? How is that more exciting than playing outside of the box weird as fuck risking loosing the game to give joy to the fans? building a engineering bay in your opponent's mineral line? playing mind games with your opponents. Look at the face of Ruby when he is loosing... he is pulling so many faces, because of the way he got played. Fans love that.
Look at people's reaction when they lose to bisu. They are just like "oh well, this guy is unbeatable he is a perfect multitasking machine"
On the other side, there was a lot of hype before that game of Boxer vs Ruby. People calling boxer old, unpracticed, slow, etc. And Ruby being the new young blood that is used to the multitasking to the extreme plus speed and new style of gaming. I strongly believe people was waiting on ruby rolling over boxer. But what happened? Boxer schooled the youngsta with weird builds + switching to wraiths when he coulda basically just kept pushing/drop tank/golis. And everyone enjoyed Ruby's face being like "omg omg . wtf, wtf I cant do anything"
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United States22883 Posts
It's a lot like MJ playing for the Wizards, having to outsmart younger players since he can't keep up physically (although in this case it's just in practice time.) It's not really the young guys' fault, they're simply inexperienced and that comes with the territory. Luckily in this case, I assume Boxer isn't nearly as restricted by his age as MJ was when he returned.
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Wow, his proxy never ceases to amaze, I liked Ruby's face, he looked like Savior when he faced FBH
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@NonY[rC]: I salute you for opposing TL's general opinion on this game, but I have the impression that you're doing it for that sole purpose.
Personally, I love mindgames.
Even though I don't watch many VODs and my skill level isn't very high, I'm positive that if it was, I would still enjoy this game.
-Peace out
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poor ruby didnt do anything wrong really. he did everything in a standard TvT matchup. except boxer gambled his game in hope that ruby will play standard, and poor ruby became the new poster child of boxer's ingeniuty.
boxer was playing TvT, ruby was playing T_T
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On January 10 2008 12:47 dybydx wrote:
boxer was playing TvT, ruby was playing T_T
Haha great quote.
Just like everyone said, gotta love Ruby's facial expressions throughout the whole game.
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On January 10 2008 12:47 dybydx wrote:boxer was playing TvT, ruby was playing T_T
Rofl classic, never thought of it that way. I would like to see Boxer frustrated for once though. It seems that every time he pulls a crazy strat it WORKS. Maybe that's why he's so awesome :D. Or...maybe only the ones that work get aired.
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United States33553 Posts
On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote:
When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
It wasn't simply carrying and advantage in the most simple way. More boring players would be likely to go the macro route after gaining a small-but-meaningful advantage in terms of an expansion.
Boxer read/guessed his opponent correctly on multiple points, mostly to the conclusion that he knew ruby would be very passive. It allowed him to fast expand and go cloaking wraiths off a ridiculously low troop count, and then have his otherwise unimpressive force of tanks at the one position where they would be significant: ruby's natural.
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I watched it.
It wasn't boring.
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Maybe that's why he's so awesome :D. Or...maybe only the ones that work get aired.
LOL thats funny
very very nice + entertaining game =]
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On January 10 2008 14:18 fookyou wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2008 12:47 dybydx wrote:boxer was playing TvT, ruby was playing T_T Rofl classic, never thought of it that way. I would like to see Boxer frustrated for once though. It seems that every time he pulls a crazy strat it WORKS. Maybe that's why he's so awesome :D. Or...maybe only the ones that work get aired.
Censorship?
As for Nony's argument, the thing is that when Boxer does that sort of stuff he doesn't miscalculate his opponent's reaction, while other players usually do. Remember the game vs. Sheis? Or the game vs. oov on RH3 (2?), that game on Bifrost where he used the (in)famous Barracks block, or where he did a similar thing against ChoJJa (??), preventing him from defending his own expo? Or when he proxied Factory in order to kill Anytime's backing out Dragoons on Neo Forte?
Do you really think he depends on simple assumptions and gets THAT lucky, Nony?
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I seriously doubt if any true Starcraft fan could really find Boxer's games boring. His play could get boring yes, sometimes in the past, but that's when he tried to play it safe in unBoxerish macro style.
Nony when you said that was boring, I knew deep down in your heart you knew it was NOT. It's nice to go against the public opinion but just don't lie to yourself ok 
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While I thoroughly enjoyed the game and thought Boxer's move was great, I think I understand Nony's point of view. It's two different ways of seeing the game.
The idea of playing the perfect game is something that the greatest players in any game strive for. Seeing a player play such a beautiful game and get close to that perfection is awe-inspiring. It's the kinda thing that gives you chills because their play is just so good.
Boxer's play here, on the other hand, is more about the excitement of the mind game, and his ability to know what the other person will do. He was able to manipulate his opponent into playing a certain way, and then countered it beautifully. It's amazing in a different way.
I think the fact that you can see both of these things are part of the reason why Starcraft is such a great game. There's just so many different aspects of the game, that even after a decade it still hasn't gotten old.
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On January 10 2008 14:05 JohnnyHazardous wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2008 12:47 dybydx wrote:
boxer was playing TvT, ruby was playing T_T Haha great quote. Just like everyone said, gotta love Ruby's facial expressions throughout the whole game.
LOL. Haha, what a game. Ruby really got schooled there.
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On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote:
When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
I find winning through a strategy that depends on micro to be more uninteresting than a win which was dependent on mentally out-thinking the opponent and punishing his assumptions. Its a natural assumption for a boring mechanical player like Ruby to make, one who "plays by the book" so to speak. Its awesome to watch such players punished. The former is just a matter of handspeed and multitasking. The latter is a genius move mentally.
Even against world-class opponents such fakery and mental planning can sometimes give the small edge needed to close out the game.
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NoNy is an excellent player and someone that knows the game really well.
But when you mess with Boxer the whole starctraft community will go off on you.
Everything that boxer does has a meaning. Saying his play is boring is just so ..... 
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On January 11 2008 03:01 InfesTeD]i[ wrote:NoNy is an excellent player and someone that knows the game really well. But when you mess with Boxer the whole starctraft community will go off on you. Everything that boxer does has a meaning. Saying his play is boring is just so .....
Well, if i was watching this game live i would say this game would be on equally entertaining compared to NonY's described unbeatable strategy level of entertainment. Hope you know what i mean. I would be shouting pumping just like when i saw Boxer proxy barrack OOV in the Pimpest Plays 2006
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On January 11 2008 19:27 soccercop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2008 03:01 InfesTeD]i[ wrote:NoNy is an excellent player and someone that knows the game really well. But when you mess with Boxer the whole starctraft community will go off on you. Everything that boxer does has a meaning. Saying his play is boring is just so ..... Well, if i was watching this game live i would say this game would be on equally entertaining compared to NonY's described unbeatable strategy level of entertainment. Hope you know what i mean. I would be shouting pumping just like when i saw Boxer proxy barrack OOV in the Pimpest Plays 2006
I think what people is concerned about is that he called boxer's play boring and that we are glorifying it etc, thats the thing. But I totally get your point I also love it too. Why do you think Im a iloveoov fan? I just love how well he dominated everyone with his macro style. But boxer makes me jump out of my seat!
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I just saw the game and finally got through reading your posts. In general finding something boring is a personal oppinion and cannot be argued with. So I dont want to discuss your opinion NoNy, I just have a different one:
I find it entertaining to watch anything that Boxer is coming up with. This might be because I am a little fanboy, but who cares. When I read this discussion I was thinking about his autobiography though. Crazy as me. In it he talks about the pressure on him to entertain and surprise the viewers. I personally think that this is a very important point to Boxer. Sure he is a great and innovative player, but some of his builds are risky and just for the sole purpose of Entertainment. I think that is what sepparates him from most of the other ProGamers:
Boxer is not a machine, he thinks and does his mindgames, he wants to play his own style and still beat his opponent.
Sometimes this gets to him, he loses because of one of his little gimmicks. But most of the time he succeeds and all of the time it is clearly visible that he still enjoys playing. After all that Boxer has achieved, he has come back for the fun.
Maybe today hes not Emperor anymore, more the "Entertainer"!
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On January 11 2008 22:03 Sourdough wrote:I just saw the game and finally got through reading your posts. In general finding something boring is a personal oppinion and cannot be argued with. So I dont want to discuss your opinion NoNy, I just have a different one: I find it entertaining to watch anything that Boxer is coming up with. This might be because I am a little fanboy, but who cares. When I read this discussion I was thinking about his autobiography though. Crazy as me. In it he talks about the pressure on him to entertain and surprise the viewers. I personally think that this is a very important point to Boxer. Sure he is a great and innovative player, but some of his builds are risky and just for the sole purpose of Entertainment. I think that is what sepparates him from most of the other ProGamers: Boxer is not a machine, he thinks and does his mindgames, he wants to play his own style and still beat his opponent. Sometimes this gets to him, he loses because of one of his little gimmicks. But most of the time he succeeds and all of the time it is clearly visible that he still enjoys playing. After all that Boxer has achieved, he has come back for the fun. Maybe today hes not Emperor anymore, more the "Entertainer"!
You are right. If it isn't for Boxer performing the tricks and mind games, i absolutely don't know which terran player will do it. The same goes for Ra. If Ra wasn't the Magician, i don't who can. Don't think i can accept Stork as magician. Boxer is Boxer and i don't think anyone will replace him. And Ra will be missed when he retires too.
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EPT
