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I wouldn't call it balls, I'd call it smart. I guess what NonY meant is that it doesn't take balls to do, it's just a way to win that doesn't need so much mechanical skill. I don't see why it should be boring though.
It's the fault of coaches to turn their young players into machines who can not think outside of the standard strategies they learned. And it _is_ astonishing that after so many years Boxer can still find ways to abuse their narrow-mindedness.
Apart from that I don't think the fake proxy rush set Ruby so far back. After all, Boxer did in fact build two fax and vultures and Ruby's marines didn't cost too much. I think what won Boxer the game was that he scouted a lot better. Ruby didn't use his rax to scout, couldn't use SCVs and got his scanner very late. In TvT, if you know what and where your opponent's units are, you practically can't lose.
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8751 Posts
When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
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I don't think that people like Boxer for his micro. When Boxer first came to the scene he dominated because of his dropship micro and his multitasking. Nowadays every great player has that. The one thing that sets Boxer apart from the others and that makes him unique is that you never know what he's going to do because he seems to understand the game and especially the mind games that go on between players better than anyone else. And this game exemplifies just that.
Remember when he lifted his CC hoping that his opponent would scout all three positions without finding an enemy base? It didn't work, it didn't involve micro or any mechanical skills whatsoever, but people loved him for it. Especially the spectators that don't have such a firm grasp on the machanics of the games.
One other player that very consciously included mind games in his strategies was Savior when he won the OSL against Nada. When he infested Nada's CC in one of the games it didn't do anything in that game, but I think that it made Nada feel bad. It's like saying "I have such an edge over you that I have time to do things like these." It's rubbing salt into a wound. That isn't Boxer's style and it's nowhere near the brilliance Boxer shows, but I think it gives Savior an additional edge, like Boxer's unpredictability give him an edge, even though Boxer is rusty and is therefore miles away from winning a title. But that may change when he's out of the army again.
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We got a saying in Sweden: "Gammal är äldst." Literally meaning: "Old is the oldest."
This game shows what that saying really means. Boxer is still The Emperor.
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On January 08 2008 13:19 TheTyranid wrote:
This TvT was Freshhhhh. Games like this are a precious jewl among the ocean of 30 minute lullaby TvT's out there now. The best part was when Boxer was sieging Ruby's nat ecoline and Ruby could not get vision on those tanks because his floating rax was getting hit by wraiths. Ruby's goliaths would be hit by tanks if they got too close to hit the wraiths. Ruby couldn't do anything at that point, his face was priceless when they zoomed on him moments later.
All hail the Emperor.
I know! Half the game I was like "OMFG BOXER hahahha!" and half the game I was like "Oh shit this is so rape"
Man I was doubting boxer would take this game before the game start but game like this... boxer show us "I'm the emperor bitch!" Man... he IS still boxer.
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On January 08 2008 21:33 NonY[rC] wrote:
zzzzz I don't think boxer is the only one who can do shit like this. He's just the only one whose game revolves around it. So boring...
I and many posters in this thread find the game "refreshing" and "amazing". If you find it boring then okay, kinda feel bad for you that you cannot seek joys in such game.
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This game was awesome. While watching it, I thought Boxer was just building outside his base to have avoid the tanks and gols not being forced to walk around that mini path but now I also see the thinking on HIS side. It's Boxer's unpredictability that makes him unique. 
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Complete victory there. Very one sided.
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The game vs hiya was even better strategically-wise in my opinion
+ Show Spoiler +Since in Blue Storm TvT it's all about managing to stall the opponent, and usually the battle ensues as soon as possible for that purpose(gay mass vults madness), he used marine and medics! to do it, abusing the fact that mechanical units can't go for the small path and that there's an upper ground in front of the nat to place marines and medics and give them an advangate vs vults. Since hiya was obviously scared about a rush he made vults (and failed to kill the mm force in front of his nat), gols and only after siege tanks, giving boxer full time to go tanks aswell and succesfully stall hiya, the follow up then was the same as in this game, wraith and tanks
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On January 09 2008 01:48 UbRi wrote:The game vs hiya was even better strategically-wise in my opinion + Show Spoiler +Since in Blue Storm TvT it's all about managing to stall the opponent, and usually the battle ensues as soon as possible for that purpose(gay mass vults madness), he used marine and medics! to do it, abusing the fact that mechanical units can't go for the small path and that there's an upper ground in front of the nat to place marines and medics and give them an advangate vs vults. Since hiya was obviously scared about a rush he made vults (and failed to kill the mm force in front of his nat), gols and only after siege tanks, giving boxer full time to go tanks aswell and succesfully stall hiya, the follow up then was the same as in this game, wraith and tanks
The game vs Hiya, showed absolutely why this guy is the emperor, the build Boxer used on Blue Storm is THE perfect TvT build, maximizing using the map as the advantage. He showed why he still has it.
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sometimes boxer plays like WOW, His TvT is now in better shape than when he was in SKT1 i think... Recently also beating Mind who was at that time PROLEAGUE winner who won TvT iloveoov
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Haha i like the expressions on rubys face, He looked so frusterated. Kinda makes me wonder what kind of expressions i make when im playin haha.
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On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote:
When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
i think i understand.
But, remember, the most excitment comes from danger. And using a strategy like that is dangerous/risky. Pure gold for audience.
i think nony is like a good skater who watches other skater perform tricks. Audience aplauds the most to some trick that might look cool, but he realizes that trick isnt even among the harder ones to pull off.
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On January 08 2008 21:17 samachking wrote:
Thats the Blue Storm Boxer Build
Invincible TvT
Boxer's the best TvT statistically in PL
*Looks up*
For Proleague Season 2 TvT:
8 wins - 3 losses (72.73%)
Damn, not bad
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great game indeed =)
speaking of boxer: someone MUST change his tlpd picture.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/225.jpg)
he looks as if he has to poop. or as if he actually is pooping, choose one.
it's very... dishonorable!!
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United States20667 Posts
Ahaahahahahahahahahhahaah Waveland
I agree though.
His T1 picture was so much better 
There was this ethereal golden glow behind him. That was nice.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
Awesome game, complete and utter rape. Ruby's facepalm right after he gg'ed was priceless too! =)
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On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote:
When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
The beautiful thing about his 2 proxy builds on Blue Storm is that they can't be used on other maps. BoxeR figured a way against HiyA to access his ennemy's ramp before him, while still hiding therefor containing him. He removed the disadvantage of the tiny choke by building factories in the same area both times. RuBy reacted the only way he could given the information he had on BoxeR's build and having seen HiyA's destruction, he opted for a safe defensive build. BoxeR is smart and knows that people expect him to cheese and go for quick wins. He had RuBy guessing for the most part of the game and was in complete control of the map. He exerted his will from the beginning till the end and there was nothing RuBy could do about it.
If that isn't TvT genius, I don't know what is.
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EPT
