EPTSoma Explains: JD's Unrelenting Aggro vs FlaSh - Page 2
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Peeano
Netherlands5406 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5406 Posts
On February 28 2026 19:32 orangeshines wrote: Does anyone have a link to the original game please? https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/11567_Flash_vs_Jaedong/vod Learn to use the TLPD library at the bottom right. Use the Brood War Korean database for KeSPA era. | ||
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orangeshines
United Kingdom204 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4735 Posts
Today, we are watching players in their mid 30s. There is no sports or e-sports in the history of mankind where that is an advantage when you talk about speed. Noone thinks Paolo Maldini was an S-Class defender in his 30s because he finally got fast. Additionally, the players that are on top today, were not S-Class back then and in some cases not even A-Class. In Kespa times, most pros didn't stay at the top for more than 2 years. 3 years was already amazing. Younger, faster, hungrier people came in, if you were not at the very top you were just wiped out. The window for winning individual titles for all players but the all-time top ten, was like one year or one and a half years. The mechanics you see in this rush hour game is those of hungry 18-20 year olds who do nothing but play, play, play. What you see today is 30+ year old streamers. It is not even a comparision. If teleported in time, after adjusting to the current meta, this would look like the "real" Pro-League teams vs Air Force ACE. There would be some wins for the old guard, even some great ones, but they would still be bottom of the league. And some guy said, that mechanics were maxed out at a certain point in time. This is not something that can ever happen in Brood War. Never, and it really shouldn't require any explanation if you have ever played the game. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland597 Posts
On March 02 2026 05:03 Malinor wrote: The arguments about mechanics that are made in the last few years by not a tiny amount of people makes me question common sense. Today, we are watching players in their mid 30s. There is no sports or e-sports in the history of mankind where that is an advantage when you talk about speed. Noone thinks Paolo Maldini was an S-Class defender in his 30s because he finally got fast. Additionally, the players that are on top today, were not S-Class back then and in some cases not even A-Class. In Kespa times, most pros didn't stay at the top for more than 2 years. 3 years was already amazing. Younger, faster, hungrier people came in, if you were not at the very top you were just wiped out. The window for winning individual titles for all players but the all-time top ten, was like one year or one and a half years. The mechanics you see in this rush hour game is those of hungry 18-20 year olds who do nothing but play, play, play. What you see today is 30+ year old streamers. It is not even a comparision. If teleported in time, after adjusting to the current meta, this would look like the "real" Pro-League teams vs Air Force ACE. There would be some wins for the old guard, even some great ones, but they would still be bottom of the league. And some guy said, that mechanics were maxed out at a certain point in time. This is not something that can ever happen in Brood War. Never, and it really shouldn't require any explanation if you have ever played the game. There is confusion, because people define 'mechanics' differently. Say there is a 400 apm B-rank that I beat on ladder. Was he better mechanically? Yes, he could click faster, be in more places than me in a given time. However, since I won the micro battles with my 200 apm, some people will say that I had better 'mechanics', because I controlled units better. On March 02 2026 05:03 Malinor wrote: If teleported in time, after adjusting to the current meta, this would look like the "real" Pro-League teams vs Air Force ACE. There would be some wins for the old guard, even some great ones, but they would still be bottom of the league. Your catch phrase is 'after adjusting to the current meta' - this process could take even years. If you think the knowledge gap comes just from build orders or mineral boosting / optimization techniques, in my opinion you are mistaken. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1699 Posts
Here is an example on gap knowledge from build orders. On Radeon which is a very difficult map in zvp, it's just so difficult and demanding to take a win even against lesser opponent that I ended up going back to a far third fast lurker into hive, a 2009 build order ripped from JD's repack. I never had a winrate so high (++90%) because most protoss did not even played at that time and I expected that they wouldn't know the approriate counter to it which is quite "simple" but if you don't know it you will just die with a legendary 'a' move rolfstomp. Even some S rank protoss were dying from it trying to brute force with their 2 bases 2 forges sunkens lurkers defiler which made me jealous wondering how these dumbshits made it ot S rank, players that would have teared me apart had I engaged with current meta. There is no way a -A iccup 2009 protoss back then would have performed that bad facing far third especially if he was korean. That shows how crucial knowledge from build orders is which preempt any era from peak kespa until now. I guess one can argue that I am better at executing that bo since now I am amazed to hit 2/1 adrenal upgrade at 12min45 which was the same timing at which JD was hitting it from his 2009 replays, while back then I would always be delayed by 30 seconds to near 1 minute. But still, I don't think that's enough to cover the gap because back then protoss knew how to pressure you, while now protoss are mostly passive macroing up because they freak out on 2 lurkers, leaving you all the space to make 1 million drones and even the space for a muta switch in somes cases because they don't know that you are going early +1 air carap. I think blackmanpl is a good example of what I am pointing out, he has good rank while having no optimization build whatsoever aside of good sim city I guess. But he plays odly with unorthodox build orders, and that makes his opponents sometimes downright confused engaging fights they should not, their decision making suddenly going down the Abyss. What I mean is that we build automatism given a specific context, change this context and we are thrown back to stone age most of the time. But fair enough, this is just amateur level, nowadays at pro level I believe it's mostly about build orders optimization which are heavily map dependent, tiny details and timing which makes the early/mid game much more subtle than it used to be. Though, I don't think it would take years to adjust to that. Daily training, with someone to point out your mistakes so you don't have to learn all by yourself, a good 6 months to one year max. It's probably not uniform across match-up and races. At least from a zerg perspective since we mostly adapt to what's being thrown at us instead of really innovating. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1209 Posts
On March 02 2026 17:26 iFU.pauline wrote: I believe the knowledge gap comes largely from build orders and optimization techniques. If one player doesn't know the strategy he is facing, his gameplay will be dumb no matter which era he is facing. But I would be curious to know which parameters you are referecing to Bonyth, even if I get a feel on what you are saying. Here is an example on gap knowledge from build orders. On Radeon which is a very difficult map in zvp, it's just so difficult and demanding to take a win even against lesser opponent that I ended up going back to a far third fast lurker into hive, a 2009 build order ripped from JD's repack. I never had a winrate so high (++90%) because most protoss did not even played at that time and I expected that they wouldn't know the approriate counter to it which is quite "simple" but if you don't know it you will just die with a legendary 'a' move rolfstomp. Even some S rank protoss were dying from it trying to brute force with their 2 bases 2 forges sunkens lurkers defiler which made me jealous wondering how these dumbshits made it ot S rank, players that would have teared me apart had I engaged with current meta. There is no way a -A iccup 2009 protoss back then would have performed that bad facing far third especially if he was korean. That shows how crucial knowledge from build orders is which preempt any era from peak kespa until now. I guess one can argue that I am better at executing that bo since now I am amazed to hit 2/1 adrenal upgrade at 12min45 which was the same timing at which JD was hitting it from his 2009 replays, while back then I would always be delayed by 30 seconds to near 1 minute. But still, I don't think that's enough to cover the gap because back then protoss knew how to pressure you, while now protoss are mostly passive macroing up because they freak out on 2 lurkers, leaving you all the space to make 1 million drones and even the space for a muta switch in somes cases because they don't know that you are going early +1 air carap. I think blackmanpl is a good example of what I am pointing out, he has good rank while having no optimization build whatsoever aside of good sim city I guess. But he plays odly with unorthodox build orders, and that makes his opponents sometimes downright confused engaging fights they should not, their decision making suddenly going down the Abyss. What I mean is that we build automatism given a specific context, change this context and we are thrown back to stone age most of the time. But fair enough, this is just amateur level, nowadays at pro level I believe it's mostly about build orders optimization which are heavily map dependent, tiny details and timing which makes the early/mid game much more subtle than it used to be. Though, I don't think it would take years to adjust to that. Daily training, with someone to point out your mistakes so you don't have to learn all by yourself, a good 6 months to one year max. It's probably not uniform across match-up and races. At least from a zerg perspective since we mostly adapt to what's being thrown at us instead of really innovating. All fair points. Being familiar with build orders and how to read the information availavle to deduce opponent's choices and formulate your own his huge. Often these reflect the current metas. But I think "situational knowledge" specifically has massively improved. Pros have five times the experience now that they had in Kespa. They have encountered so many more different situations and how responses to said situations play out depending on a large set of choices they can make, that they have a massive edge over Kespa era players. They have "limit tested" so much trying to figure out how to get more results out of less and less minerals that today's pros just have much smaller margins towarda victory. Also you cant compare SC to a physical sport. Reaction speed is hardly relevant in SC as long as you are around 200-250ms, which everyone is. Most 40 to 50 year olds are still around 250-280. The reason turnover rate of pros was high in Kespa was because everyone was kind of new to starcraft and metas and skills were still being developed. Most of the 2007-2008 players were almost just as dominant as in 2012. Before 2007 turnover rate was HIGH because metas were in their infancy. An great example is Chess where you see the same 20 people in the top for over a decade now, with some young folks coming in from time to time to claim a spot. But the top 20 doesnt change much Same in League of Legends where reaction speed is many times more important than in StarCraft. The top League of Legends players have largely been active since 2015-2017. Turnover rate of the Top pros in LoL is LOW. bunch of younger faces take bottom to mid tier spots, but the top pros are all veterans. Or Super Smash Brothers Melee. Same faces for the past decade with VERY low turnover rate among the top pros. What we see in ALL esports is a high turnover rate in the first 3-5 years and then turnover rate gets LOW among the top performers because the game has been "Figured out" and Metas and physical parameters have been established. This too applies to even all the esports shooters. Even Fortnite with its humongous playerbase has a low turnover rate these days. | ||
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Zografa
254 Posts
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