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United States10365 Posts
On February 24 2026 20:05 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2026 06:41 SiarX wrote:
Well ghosts at least very rarely see use in TvP vs carriers, but in TvZ they are totally useless, so... not exactly complete.
Also, did you ever see devourers in TvZ? In ZvZ they are at least used in very rare hive level plays. First of all, nuke rushes are viable against crazy Zerg and we've seen them in tournaments. You build one devourer when you guardian rush to prevent cloaked wraiths from just killing your cliff overlord and hunting your guardians. The devourer shows them and slows their attack They were also used many times on Roaring Currents! The map did not appear in ASL enough, but in pro league people tried everything
We saw nuke rush in one game in ASL, which, while exciting, still lost.
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I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5.
eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30
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At top top level the MU has been solved by Soulkey and Soma. It's been pretty brutal the past few years. Zerg camps, goes Mutas 99% of the time, completely dominates the tempo, Terran has a couple opportunities for timing attacks, if Zerg gets Defiler it's gg.
now that Flash returned and we got a new set of maps, Terrans are shitting on Zerg all over the place lol
TvZ win rates of 60% on multiple maps
this shouldn't be possible if what you said were true
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On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote:Show nested quote +I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30
TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran.
Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close.
The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much?
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On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote:I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much?
The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top.
I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary.
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On February 27 2026 14:00 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote:On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote:I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much? The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top. I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary.
Sounds like every narcissist.... I think the issue is that we all know since the beginning of time that terran is the winningest race, and this attracts all the narcissist to play terran... and they all like to protect themselves in their own world where everyone else is wrong and they are the weak victims
It explains idra, artosis, gypsy etc., and why day9 is so chill in comparison. Tasteless slowly gets infected by Artosises toxicity in his cast but is usually much more chill.
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On February 27 2026 14:00 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote:On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote:I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much? The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top. I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary.
Reading your post I'm unclear about whether you mean to support or not support that argument (in bold). But just want to throw this out there that the stats of a few players can't possibly inflate the stats of the whole population.
Evidence: Terran enjoyed the same win rates in all the 3-4 years of Flash's absence. Check the win rates on Vermeer for example. Flash never played a game on this map.
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On February 27 2026 14:00 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote:On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote:I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much? The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top. I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary.
Only below 1800 MMR terran has a bit lower winrate in TvZ. Above that terran increasingly starts dominating zerg. So it is not just the very top tier pros who have race advantage.
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/67t96Lr1/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png)
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays
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United States10365 Posts
On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote:I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much?
You and iopg keep making this weird "terrans complain, stop being big whiners about TvZ." Yet, I rarely find people actually complain about this matchup from the Terran perspective, or at least few enough that I'm not going to say it's representative of the population, or even a significant portion of the population.
I think the overwhelming majority of Terrans know the strengths of the matchup and how it is advantaged for them. So can we please stop with this tired argument of "TvZ terran crybabies"? Because it's simply not based on reality.
Now, Terrans crying about TvP on the other hand, definitely something we do.
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critizises "muh feelings"
by saying that based on "muh feelings", you are saying BS.
The fact remains that T>Z>P but somehow terrans whine about zerg.
Imagine rock not being able to beat scissor anymore, but scissors crying that the scissor paper matchup is where paper is OP and paper mains WHINING ABOUT THIS. Of course THIS STANDS OUT.
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Guys it was literary a shower thought topic, simply realized that in this match all units (except maybe the two generally useless units) are utilized in a meaningful way which is rare in the RTS games and it happens only in this match in Broodwar. Nothing more nothing less.
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On February 28 2026 06:49 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote:On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote:I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much? You and iopg keep making this weird "terrans complain, stop being big whiners about TvZ." Yet, I rarely find people actually complain about this matchup from the Terran perspective, or at least few enough that I'm not going to say it's representative of the population, or even a significant portion of the population. I think the overwhelming majority of Terrans know the strengths of the matchup and how it is advantaged for them. So can we please stop with this tired argument of "TvZ terran crybabies"? Because it's simply not based on reality. Now, Terrans crying about TvP on the other hand, definitely something we do.
I think the reason why the opinion is shared here is because while you are probably right in that minority opinions are not representative of the whole population, we had an example in this very thread so the perspective is justified here at least. Point in case:
On February 20 2026 12:15 .father wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2026 10:39 XenOsky wrote:On February 17 2026 03:26 .father wrote:
It's the most completely shit matchup in the game. Zerg has the best all ins in the game for the matchup and unbeatable lategame. Terran has about a 4 minute window to win the game before they're permanently locked out of any options. welcome to pvz Ya I mean zerg is insanely broken, I don't know much about pvz but it looks nearly as bad as tvz.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/q32ZhhH4/3535111t.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/wjMsZmy/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz.png)
