|
On February 04 2026 23:44 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2026 05:38 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 04 2026 04:35 Kanzzer wrote:On February 04 2026 03:19 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 03 2026 22:36 Kanzzer wrote:On January 15 2026 01:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Metropolis yes. What does Metropolis do better than Retro in your opinion? Does it surpass FS? Metropolis is far better than Retro in the sense that the main/nat layouts give a lot more play to mutalisks, as well as right outside the natural. Metropolis's center also feels more dynamic than Retros which gives more flanking and counter play to Zerg. Would you say its TvP is also an improvement over Retro or FS? Protoss vetoed FS in TvP 3 out of 4 times in ASL11 and vetoed Metropolis in TvP all 3 times it was offered in group stages (though Protoss leads 2-1 in all PvT mandatory Metropolis matches). P never vetoed Retro in all 3 seasons it was used against T though (T vetoed twice out of total 11 times Retro was offered). Metropolis is just a dogshit map for Protoss at top levels. 45% PZ and 41% PT. Not entirely sure the reason for such a bad PZ matchup, my guess is that 1-1 pushes are super strong because of the chokes. PT is bad because Terran takes the center as a 4th base and once they set up tanks there, Protoss can't move around the edges because of how the map layout is without taking significant losses. Retro is actually a super balanced map outside of ZvT. All the other matchups are within 2.5%. It's possible if we ever get a 2.0, we could look to make the mineral lines more vulnerable at the naturals for muta harass. Not sure what else the map needs after that but that would be a good place to start. No, just put overlord posts everywhere.
I believe both Retro & Metropolis have sufficient amount of Overlord spots.
|
On February 04 2026 23:31 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Gotta be by far the most boring ASL map pool we've ever had. I'll probably be skipping this edition, honestly. It's a shame,
Sad but true.
I may not be skipping it entirely, but I'm also not excited like I usually am.
|
On February 05 2026 01:40 ahwala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2026 23:31 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Gotta be by far the most boring ASL map pool we've ever had. I'll probably be skipping this edition, honestly. It's a shame, Sad but true. I may not be skipping it entirely, but I'm also not excited like I usually am.
And it's getting worse with time.
|
United States10354 Posts
On February 04 2026 23:44 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2026 05:38 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 04 2026 04:35 Kanzzer wrote:On February 04 2026 03:19 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 03 2026 22:36 Kanzzer wrote:On January 15 2026 01:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Metropolis yes. What does Metropolis do better than Retro in your opinion? Does it surpass FS? Metropolis is far better than Retro in the sense that the main/nat layouts give a lot more play to mutalisks, as well as right outside the natural. Metropolis's center also feels more dynamic than Retros which gives more flanking and counter play to Zerg. Would you say its TvP is also an improvement over Retro or FS? Protoss vetoed FS in TvP 3 out of 4 times in ASL11 and vetoed Metropolis in TvP all 3 times it was offered in group stages (though Protoss leads 2-1 in all PvT mandatory Metropolis matches). P never vetoed Retro in all 3 seasons it was used against T though (T vetoed twice out of total 11 times Retro was offered). Metropolis is just a dogshit map for Protoss at top levels. 45% PZ and 41% PT. Not entirely sure the reason for such a bad PZ matchup, my guess is that 1-1 pushes are super strong because of the chokes. PT is bad because Terran takes the center as a 4th base and once they set up tanks there, Protoss can't move around the edges because of how the map layout is without taking significant losses. Retro is actually a super balanced map outside of ZvT. All the other matchups are within 2.5%. It's possible if we ever get a 2.0, we could look to make the mineral lines more vulnerable at the naturals for muta harass. Not sure what else the map needs after that but that would be a good place to start. No, just put overlord posts everywhere. It doesn't affect ZvP because Protoss gets corsair anyway so they don't really run around with dragoons sniping overlords. Why Radeon is relatively balanced is because there are places to put your overlords to get good map vision. You can even put the divot against hydra busts in front of the natural, it wouldn't hurt the balance.
Overlord spots are important, but not inherently the reason for poor ZT winrates. Knockout quite literally has 0 overlord spots in the center but has 45% ZT winrate (could be in part of the ditch). Conversely, maps like Pole Star and Vermeer have a decent number of Overlord spots comparatively to Metropolis and Retro, but have atrocious ZT winrates.
I do think they should be included in every map and it's strange when they aren't like on Knockout or Sylphid, but again, not the end all to addressing the poor ZT winrates.
|
On February 04 2026 05:38 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2026 04:35 Kanzzer wrote:On February 04 2026 03:19 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 03 2026 22:36 Kanzzer wrote:On January 15 2026 01:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Metropolis yes. What does Metropolis do better than Retro in your opinion? Does it surpass FS? Metropolis is far better than Retro in the sense that the main/nat layouts give a lot more play to mutalisks, as well as right outside the natural. Metropolis's center also feels more dynamic than Retros which gives more flanking and counter play to Zerg. Would you say its TvP is also an improvement over Retro or FS? Protoss vetoed FS in TvP 3 out of 4 times in ASL11 and vetoed Metropolis in TvP all 3 times it was offered in group stages (though Protoss leads 2-1 in all PvT mandatory Metropolis matches). P never vetoed Retro in all 3 seasons it was used against T though (T vetoed twice out of total 11 times Retro was offered). Metropolis is just a dogshit map for Protoss at top levels. 45% PZ and 41% PT. Not entirely sure the reason for such a bad PZ matchup, my guess is that 1-1 pushes are super strong because of the chokes. PT is bad because Terran takes the center as a 4th base and once they set up tanks there, Protoss can't move around the edges because of how the map layout is without taking significant losses.
I am always slightly cautious of eloboard general map statistics due to their tendency towards safe-macro-plays (they should have a separate map stats for Daily Proleagues tbh), so I went to check out the individual pros' performance on Metropolis just to make sure.
And you weren't kidding. As of right now the only top Protosses who have positive TvP winrates on Metropolis are Rain (9-3), Best (43-31) and SnOw (34-15) - all batshit dominant records too. Every other Protoss struggles there in TvP, including Bisu (10-19) and Mini (28-40).
|
On February 04 2026 05:38 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2026 04:35 Kanzzer wrote:On February 04 2026 03:19 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 03 2026 22:36 Kanzzer wrote:On January 15 2026 01:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Metropolis yes. What does Metropolis do better than Retro in your opinion? Does it surpass FS? Metropolis is far better than Retro in the sense that the main/nat layouts give a lot more play to mutalisks, as well as right outside the natural. Metropolis's center also feels more dynamic than Retros which gives more flanking and counter play to Zerg. Would you say its TvP is also an improvement over Retro or FS? Protoss vetoed FS in TvP 3 out of 4 times in ASL11 and vetoed Metropolis in TvP all 3 times it was offered in group stages (though Protoss leads 2-1 in all PvT mandatory Metropolis matches). P never vetoed Retro in all 3 seasons it was used against T though (T vetoed twice out of total 11 times Retro was offered). Retro is actually a super balanced map outside of ZvT. All the other matchups are within 2.5%. It's possible if we ever get a 2.0, we could look to make the mineral lines more vulnerable at the naturals for muta harass. Not sure what else the map needs after that but that would be a good place to start.
I compared top Zergs' ZvT performance between Retro & Metropolis.
soma
81W-67L on Retro
57W-32L on Metropolis
effort
40W-30L on Retro
32W-21L on Metropolis
JD
112W-115L on Retro
29W-40L on Metropolis
Queen
88W-91L on Retro
89W-68L on Metropolis
Action
96W-105L on Retro
43W-29L on Metropolis
Larva
11W-19L on Retro
26W-56L on Metropolis
SoulKey
58W-51L on Retro
16W-10L on Metropolis
herO
95W-90L on Retro
52W-51L on Metropolis
Two things I can deduce from this:
1. soma, effort, Queen, Action and SoulKey have better ZvT winrates on Metropolis, especially when Queen & Action both had losing records on Retrom
2. However, Jaedong & Larva both have worse ZvT winrates on Metropolis. Whereas herO's ZvT performances on both maps look identical.
3. Despite the 43% total ZvT winrate on the aggregate spon records, it seems none of the top Zergs straight up die in ZvT on Retro except for Larva. JD, Action & Queen were all only a handful of wins away from tying up their TvZ records. This is supported by the 3 ASL seasons too, where Zergs lead Terran 10-8, and out of 11 times Retro was up for vetoes in ZvT, Zerg only vetoed it twice.
So all in all, I would say Retro is a challenging map for ZvT, but still within reasonable fairness. Certainly not as tough as PvT in Metropolis, where only the absolute best of the best PvT gods can win.
|
On February 05 2026 01:55 Rainalcar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2026 01:40 ahwala wrote:On February 04 2026 23:31 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Gotta be by far the most boring ASL map pool we've ever had. I'll probably be skipping this edition, honestly. It's a shame, Sad but true. I may not be skipping it entirely, but I'm also not excited like I usually am. And it's getting worse with time.
Seems like it, yeah.
|
So no crazy map this season ?
|
Jane Doe isn't traditional, but I suppose you can't exactly call it crazy either.
|
On February 05 2026 04:02 Kanzzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2026 05:38 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 04 2026 04:35 Kanzzer wrote:On February 04 2026 03:19 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 03 2026 22:36 Kanzzer wrote:On January 15 2026 01:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Metropolis yes. What does Metropolis do better than Retro in your opinion? Does it surpass FS? Metropolis is far better than Retro in the sense that the main/nat layouts give a lot more play to mutalisks, as well as right outside the natural. Metropolis's center also feels more dynamic than Retros which gives more flanking and counter play to Zerg. Would you say its TvP is also an improvement over Retro or FS? Protoss vetoed FS in TvP 3 out of 4 times in ASL11 and vetoed Metropolis in TvP all 3 times it was offered in group stages (though Protoss leads 2-1 in all PvT mandatory Metropolis matches). P never vetoed Retro in all 3 seasons it was used against T though (T vetoed twice out of total 11 times Retro was offered). Retro is actually a super balanced map outside of ZvT. All the other matchups are within 2.5%. It's possible if we ever get a 2.0, we could look to make the mineral lines more vulnerable at the naturals for muta harass. Not sure what else the map needs after that but that would be a good place to start. I compared top Zergs' ZvT performance between Retro & Metropolis. soma81W-67L on Retro 57W-32L on Metropolis effort40W-30L on Retro 32W-21L on Metropolis JD112W-115L on Retro 29W-40L on Metropolis Queen88W-91L on Retro 89W-68L on Metropolis Action96W-105L on Retro 43W-29L on Metropolis Larva11W-19L on Retro 26W-56L on Metropolis SoulKey58W-51L on Retro 16W-10L on Metropolis herO95W-90L on Retro 52W-51L on Metropolis Two things I can deduce from this: 1. soma, effort, Queen, Action and SoulKey have better ZvT winrates on Metropolis, especially when Queen & Action both had losing records on Retrom 2. However, Jaedong & Larva both have worse ZvT winrates on Metropolis. Whereas herO's ZvT performances on both maps look identical. 3. Despite the 43% total ZvT winrate on the aggregate spon records, it seems none of the top Zergs straight up die in ZvT on Retro except for Larva. JD, Action & Queen were all only a handful of wins away from tying up their TvZ records. This is supported by the 3 ASL seasons too, where Zergs lead Terran 10-8, and out of 11 times Retro was up for vetoes in ZvT, Zerg only vetoed it twice. So all in all, I would say Retro is a challenging map for ZvT, but still within reasonable fairness. Certainly not as tough as PvT in Metropolis, where only the absolute best of the best PvT gods can win.
An important note on EffOrt and Action specifically. They tend to spon and proleague vs generally weaker opponents than HerO, SoMa, Queen, Jaedong and Soulkey. When the player pool is this small, who a person plays against also strongly affects the winrate. It is the pitfall of small data sets where everyone is of a different skill level.
|
On February 05 2026 01:23 Kanzzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2026 23:44 iopq wrote:On February 04 2026 05:38 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 04 2026 04:35 Kanzzer wrote:On February 04 2026 03:19 FlaShFTW wrote:On February 03 2026 22:36 Kanzzer wrote:On January 15 2026 01:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Metropolis yes. What does Metropolis do better than Retro in your opinion? Does it surpass FS? Metropolis is far better than Retro in the sense that the main/nat layouts give a lot more play to mutalisks, as well as right outside the natural. Metropolis's center also feels more dynamic than Retros which gives more flanking and counter play to Zerg. Would you say its TvP is also an improvement over Retro or FS? Protoss vetoed FS in TvP 3 out of 4 times in ASL11 and vetoed Metropolis in TvP all 3 times it was offered in group stages (though Protoss leads 2-1 in all PvT mandatory Metropolis matches). P never vetoed Retro in all 3 seasons it was used against T though (T vetoed twice out of total 11 times Retro was offered). Metropolis is just a dogshit map for Protoss at top levels. 45% PZ and 41% PT. Not entirely sure the reason for such a bad PZ matchup, my guess is that 1-1 pushes are super strong because of the chokes. PT is bad because Terran takes the center as a 4th base and once they set up tanks there, Protoss can't move around the edges because of how the map layout is without taking significant losses. Retro is actually a super balanced map outside of ZvT. All the other matchups are within 2.5%. It's possible if we ever get a 2.0, we could look to make the mineral lines more vulnerable at the naturals for muta harass. Not sure what else the map needs after that but that would be a good place to start. No, just put overlord posts everywhere. I believe both Retro & Metropolis have sufficient amount of Overlord spots.
I would prefer if you couldn't kill them with marines
|
|
|
If Protoss uses mind control on the medic on Jane Doe they get it with restoration and optical flare upgrades, right?
probably not useful in any realistic scenario but fun to think about use cases
|
They unfortunately do not.
|
dang 
|
(2)JaneDoe 0.95 -> 1.0
- Finely adjusted the position of minerals at the 8 o'clock main base.
- Adjusted the position of the main base entrance to prevent Marine/Medic walls from receiving the high-ground advantage.
- Increased the gas at the back expansion from 2000 to 3000.
- Removed one neutral building blocking the back path of the natural expansion (from 6 layers to 5 layers) and reduced mineral amounts from 48 to 40.
- Increased the gas amount at the 5 o'clock and 11 o'clock expansions from 3000 to 3500.
- Fixed other bugs and miscellaneous issues.
(2)MatchPoint 1.35 -> 1.4
- Partially adjusted the terrain to fit the Remastered version
- Improved resource gathering rates
- Modified the terrain so that the entrances to the 11 o'clock and 5 o'clock expansions can be blocked with 3 Pylons
(4)Attitude 0.9 -> 1.0
- Fixed an issue where workers moving from the main base to the natural expansion at the 11 o'clock position would path awkwardly near the bone decorations by the main entrance.
- Fixed other bugs and miscellaneous issues.
(4)KnockOut 1.2 -> 1.3
- Finely adjusted resource gathering rates at the 11 o'clock and 7 o'clock main bases (to match Dominator's 7 o'clock rates).
- Modified the terrain at the 6 o'clock expansion to allow 3 Hatcheries to be built adjacent to each other.
(4)Octagon 0.91 -> 1.0
- No changes.
|
Hm they didn't change the lower ramps on match point. Would have thought they would if adjustments were going to be made.
|
Jane Doe has been producing some really fun games so far. I think it's going to be the standout map of this season.
|
United States10354 Posts
Extremely disappointed in them not changing the MP ramps. It's not like it a massive change and while the pros are all familiar with the map in its original state, I don't think in the modern day that a 2p/4p map should not be perfectly symmetrical.
|
On February 06 2026 04:48 RouaF wrote:
So no crazy map this season ?
apparently not
kinda sad we dont have at least one island or semi-island map. ngl like meta was developing into people starting to experiment with air units regularly
And now we back to the usual
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/743222513852481582/1469569002304180288/Screenshot_2026-02-07_004102.png?ex=69882249&is=6986d0c9&hm=e7c15fd51ef68ce445e2bc50191443f11c6a080e01167bad303437fbfae54514&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1838&height=1244)
