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This map is so beautiful, I really had loved Eclipse before I played it.
We played and watched it so much, what do we expect from Eclipse in 2025?
2020 Season 2 29/05
(2) Eclipse
(2) Match Point
(3) New Sylphid
(3) Reap the Storm
(4) Polypoid
(4) Fighting Spirit
(4) Circuit Breakers
2020 Season 3 09/10
(2) Benzene
(2) Eclipse
(3) Plasma
(4) Polypoid
(4) Ringing Bloom
(4) Fighting Spirit
(4) Circuit Breakers
2021 season 1 10/02
(2) Benzene 1.1
(2) Eclipse 1.2
(3) Plasma 1.0
(4) Optimizer 1.0
(4) Polypoid 1.6
(4) Ringing Bloom SE 2.0
(4) Shakuras Temple 1.1
2021 season 2 29/09
(2) Eclipse 1.2
(3) Ascension 1.0
(4) Fighting Spirit 1.3
(4) Good Night 1.3
(4) Largo 1.5
(4) Polypoid 1.65
(4) Revolver 1.0
2022 season 1 08/09
(2) Butter 2.0C
(2) Eclipse 1.2
(3) Sylphid 3.0
(4) Fighting Spirit 1.3
(4) Nemesis (ASL)
(4) Polypoid 1.65
(4) Vermeer SE 2.1
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50600 Posts
On December 31 2024 01:32 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Updated MP:
(2)DeathValley0.80
(4)Metropolis0.80
(4)Pole Star 0.91
*기존 맵 수정*
(4)Deja Vu SE 1.95
(3)Dominator SE 1.9
*기존맵*
(2)Eclipse 1.3
(4)Radeon 1.0
Cant believe they bringing back eclipse xD
In an ideal scenario, they should be rotating one or two new maps, 3 at the most. but I would guess map makers get paid more for new maps.
This has to be a response to the reception they got last season.
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On December 28 2024 22:48 29 fps wrote:
out of curiosity, what do map makers gain from making these maps?
do they get royalties, or is it just for the love of the game and the fame of being a good mapmaker?
Many people are aware that there is an incentive for map production, as it is indirectly mentioned from time to time. However, the exact amount has never been disclosed. It might only be revealed after ASL and SSL come to an end.
Here are one hints:
1) There isn’t a single person who creates maps as a full-time job. It’s purely a hobby. 🤭
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Good and quick riddance of Anynomous. All other maps are looking great. Eclipse is imo one of the best maps of all time, happy to see it back.
On December 31 2024 11:50 BLinD-RawR wrote:
In an ideal scenario, they should be rotating one or two new maps, 3 at the most. but I would guess map makers get paid more for new maps.
Wake up sheeple! The BigMapMaking-lobbyists are destroying our beloved game by choosing profits over the wishes of the people!!
For real though, there are no incentives like that...
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United States10253 Posts
Trying to theorycraft on Death Valley right now on whether you simply play normally then expand later to the bottom side, or if there's some kind of mind games by expanding to the egg natural quickly.
It's almost impossible to attack the egg natural unless you commit your production to the egg natural. But that makes you extremely vulnerable to attacks at your assimilator. And it's all a guessing game too, almost a little like Monty Hall.
Example 1: Both players play normal, leads to a normal game.
Example 2: Both players take egg natural with production in mains, probably just leads to a normalish game.
Example 3: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural with production in main. Egg natural player has slight advantage in that they only have to defend their assimilator/ramp while the opponent has to defend the natural choke and can't easily harass opponent's egg natural. So likely egg natural player has some advantage.
Example 4: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural but commits production to the egg natural. In this case, the normal player would probably have advantage and can sieze initiative with harassing the assimilator and getting up the ramp while egg natural player units must quickly break the eggs to get back on defense. Difficult especially for Terran and Zerg players who don't have high damage units to break though egg armor.
Example 5: One player takes normal natural BUT commits to egg natural production while other player takes egg natural and main production. In this case, it would turn into a very messy game, as the production is not on the same side of the map and both players may end up losing their naturals.
It feels like Terran may have some advantages on this map by being able to lift their buildings. If they guessed wrong, they can always lift their early rax/factory back to the main for example, or let's say they expand to egg natural but build production in main. They can quickly try to build bunker at egg natural while lifting their rax down to the low ground to produce a few marines to get set defensively. Of course, depending on the matchup like TvZ, might be too difficult to kill the eggs fast enough when mutas arrive, so that might not be an option in TvZ (but maybe mech could be good on this map to 1) kill eggs faster, and 2) take advantage of relatively safe 3rd gas).
I think for Protoss, the egg natural basically solves the issue with 3 hatch hydra play, since Zerg will want to take the egg natural as one of their bases rather than the multi at 1. This means Zerg can't reliably rush a Protoss since they'll have at minimum 1 hatchery not joining the attack (though Zerg could maybe play a very interesting style where they take egg natural as 2nd base, then take 6/9 as 3rd base and rush the bottom side of the map). I think 12 nex to the egg natural will also be very strong and maybe a rush into fast carriers, since how does Terran reliably punish a 12 nex? They could maybe BBS... but getting up the ramp into the main would be difficult, so maybe PvT will just be 12 nex vs 14 cc?
Zerg muta play will be very strong on this map as they can dance between the three bases especially with how the egg natural minerals are placed. Rushes seem pretty weak though as mentioned before, taking the egg natural means being cut off in your production and early game zerg will have struggles opening the eggs. I think this map will see quite a few games actually reach hive ZvZ, as taking the egg natural can be pretty safe (although maybe not to ling-allins since your hatches will be disconnected by ground). 12 hatch to the egg natural vs 9 pool would auto lose as the 9 pooling player would be able to get lings inside the main and you don't have the advantage of the extra larva from the 12 hatch to defend yourself (maybe they just immediately drop a sunken in their main and can freely drone at the egg natural since it can't be attacked). But also, if Zerg takes egg natural, there's a chance opponent could also theorize a sunken rush since they likely won't make lings at that location... Very curious for how ZvZ will play out.
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On January 01 2025 01:20 FlaShFTW wrote:
Trying to theorycraft on Death Valley right now on whether you simply play normally then expand later to the bottom side, or if there's some kind of mind games by expanding to the egg natural quickly.
It's almost impossible to attack the egg natural unless you commit your production to the egg natural. But that makes you extremely vulnerable to attacks at your assimilator. And it's all a guessing game too, almost a little like Monty Hall.
Example 1: Both players play normal, leads to a normal game.
Example 2: Both players take egg natural with production in mains, probably just leads to a normalish game.
Example 3: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural with production in main. Egg natural player has slight advantage in that they only have to defend their assimilator/ramp while the opponent has to defend the natural choke and can't easily harass opponent's egg natural. So likely egg natural player has some advantage.
Example 4: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural but commits production to the egg natural. In this case, the normal player would probably have advantage and can sieze initiative with harassing the assimilator and getting up the ramp while egg natural player units must quickly break the eggs to get back on defense. Difficult especially for Terran and Zerg players who don't have high damage units to break though egg armor.
Example 5: One player takes normal natural BUT commits to egg natural production while other player takes egg natural and main production. In this case, it would turn into a very messy game, as the production is not on the same side of the map and both players may end up losing their naturals.
It feels like Terran may have some advantages on this map by being able to lift their buildings. If they guessed wrong, they can always lift their early rax/factory back to the main for example, or let's say they expand to egg natural but build production in main. They can quickly try to build bunker at egg natural while lifting their rax down to the low ground to produce a few marines to get set defensively. Of course, depending on the matchup like TvZ, might be too difficult to kill the eggs fast enough when mutas arrive, so that might not be an option in TvZ (but maybe mech could be good on this map to 1) kill eggs faster, and 2) take advantage of relatively safe 3rd gas).
I think for Protoss, the egg natural basically solves the issue with 3 hatch hydra play, since Zerg will want to take the egg natural as one of their bases rather than the multi at 1. This means Zerg can't reliably rush a Protoss since they'll have at minimum 1 hatchery not joining the attack (though Zerg could maybe play a very interesting style where they take egg natural as 2nd base, then take 6/9 as 3rd base and rush the bottom side of the map). I think 12 nex to the egg natural will also be very strong and maybe a rush into fast carriers, since how does Terran reliably punish a 12 nex? They could maybe BBS... but getting up the ramp into the main would be difficult, so maybe PvT will just be 12 nex vs 14 cc?
Zerg muta play will be very strong on this map as they can dance between the three bases especially with how the egg natural minerals are placed. Rushes seem pretty weak though as mentioned before, taking the egg natural means being cut off in your production and early game zerg will have struggles opening the eggs. I think this map will see quite a few games actually reach hive ZvZ, as taking the egg natural can be pretty safe (although maybe not to ling-allins since your hatches will be disconnected by ground). 12 hatch to the egg natural vs 9 pool would auto lose as the 9 pooling player would be able to get lings inside the main and you don't have the advantage of the extra larva from the 12 hatch to defend yourself (maybe they just immediately drop a sunken in their main and can freely drone at the egg natural since it can't be attacked). But also, if Zerg takes egg natural, there's a chance opponent could also theorize a sunken rush since they likely won't make lings at that location... Very curious for how ZvZ will play out.
As you mentioned, Zerg vs. Zerg seems quite exciting. Mirror matchups tend to have fewer balance concerns, making them even more enjoyable to watch.
Several users and map creators have pointed out structural issues with "Death Valley." From my perspective, the concept of a "separated battlefield" inherently feels structurally disadvantageous for Terran, which is typically slower in mobility.
Earthattack’s idea, compared to the previous "Third World," was to design a map where the "first battlefield could be easily abandoned." However, I still think this idea remains burdensome for Terran. If Terran gives up the 1 o'clock position, Protoss can produce an unlimited number of Interceptors, which was an issue I overlooked in my previous "Blitz Y" map. On the other hand, if Terran does not abandon the 1 o'clock position, unit movement paths become tangled.
Additionally, the "eggs" as structures feel disadvantageous for Terran.
Since they are treated as a "unit type," the activation speed of Probes and Drones becomes challenging to manage.
Furthermore, removing eggs with Marines takes considerable time.
Against Zerg, this could force Terran into a mechanical playstyle, which again suffers from slow mobility.
This predicts unfavorable choices. Unlike "Monty Hall," there is no central way, making a "time attack" strategy impossible.
The response I received was that they would "observe the games and review feedback." As far as I know, they are currently preparing a new test version alongside "Metropolis," but I do not know how or when it will be released.
Personally, I think having 1-2 slightly "imbalanced" maps each season is acceptable if they showcase "diverse gameplay." Such maps can be addressed through the "ban" system.
However, it has to be fun. I understand why people dislike gimmick maps, as there have been consistently unpleasant ones in the past. Personally, I would love to see an entertaining gimmick map. In my opinion, while 'Death Valley' might be slightly imbalanced, it seems like it could still be enjoyable to watch.
*
There are also opinions that the "unbuildable zones" in "Deja Vu SE" are excessive.
What do others think about this?
Even Mini, a Protoss player, mentioned that it might be too much.
However, I believe that allowing even a small degree of building would negate the intended changes.
Due to the map's structure, there are unfair starting positions that could give an advantage to Terran
(for example, Terran at 5 vs Protoss at 7).
At one point, I considered allowing one turret to be built in the 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock regions,
but strategically, I think this would have minimal impact.
However, I plan to ensure that no structures can be built at all at the entrance points.
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United States10253 Posts
On January 01 2025 10:06 POPsNemec wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2025 01:20 FlaShFTW wrote:
Trying to theorycraft on Death Valley right now on whether you simply play normally then expand later to the bottom side, or if there's some kind of mind games by expanding to the egg natural quickly.
It's almost impossible to attack the egg natural unless you commit your production to the egg natural. But that makes you extremely vulnerable to attacks at your assimilator. And it's all a guessing game too, almost a little like Monty Hall.
Example 1: Both players play normal, leads to a normal game.
Example 2: Both players take egg natural with production in mains, probably just leads to a normalish game.
Example 3: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural with production in main. Egg natural player has slight advantage in that they only have to defend their assimilator/ramp while the opponent has to defend the natural choke and can't easily harass opponent's egg natural. So likely egg natural player has some advantage.
Example 4: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural but commits production to the egg natural. In this case, the normal player would probably have advantage and can sieze initiative with harassing the assimilator and getting up the ramp while egg natural player units must quickly break the eggs to get back on defense. Difficult especially for Terran and Zerg players who don't have high damage units to break though egg armor.
Example 5: One player takes normal natural BUT commits to egg natural production while other player takes egg natural and main production. In this case, it would turn into a very messy game, as the production is not on the same side of the map and both players may end up losing their naturals.
It feels like Terran may have some advantages on this map by being able to lift their buildings. If they guessed wrong, they can always lift their early rax/factory back to the main for example, or let's say they expand to egg natural but build production in main. They can quickly try to build bunker at egg natural while lifting their rax down to the low ground to produce a few marines to get set defensively. Of course, depending on the matchup like TvZ, might be too difficult to kill the eggs fast enough when mutas arrive, so that might not be an option in TvZ (but maybe mech could be good on this map to 1) kill eggs faster, and 2) take advantage of relatively safe 3rd gas).
I think for Protoss, the egg natural basically solves the issue with 3 hatch hydra play, since Zerg will want to take the egg natural as one of their bases rather than the multi at 1. This means Zerg can't reliably rush a Protoss since they'll have at minimum 1 hatchery not joining the attack (though Zerg could maybe play a very interesting style where they take egg natural as 2nd base, then take 6/9 as 3rd base and rush the bottom side of the map). I think 12 nex to the egg natural will also be very strong and maybe a rush into fast carriers, since how does Terran reliably punish a 12 nex? They could maybe BBS... but getting up the ramp into the main would be difficult, so maybe PvT will just be 12 nex vs 14 cc?
Zerg muta play will be very strong on this map as they can dance between the three bases especially with how the egg natural minerals are placed. Rushes seem pretty weak though as mentioned before, taking the egg natural means being cut off in your production and early game zerg will have struggles opening the eggs. I think this map will see quite a few games actually reach hive ZvZ, as taking the egg natural can be pretty safe (although maybe not to ling-allins since your hatches will be disconnected by ground). 12 hatch to the egg natural vs 9 pool would auto lose as the 9 pooling player would be able to get lings inside the main and you don't have the advantage of the extra larva from the 12 hatch to defend yourself (maybe they just immediately drop a sunken in their main and can freely drone at the egg natural since it can't be attacked). But also, if Zerg takes egg natural, there's a chance opponent could also theorize a sunken rush since they likely won't make lings at that location... Very curious for how ZvZ will play out. As you mentioned, Zerg vs. Zerg seems quite exciting. Mirror matchups tend to have fewer balance concerns, making them even more enjoyable to watch. Several users and map creators have pointed out structural issues with "Death Valley." From my perspective, the concept of a "separated battlefield" inherently feels structurally disadvantageous for Terran, which is typically slower in mobility. Earthattack’s idea, compared to the previous "Third World," was to design a map where the "first battlefield could be easily abandoned." However, I still think this idea remains burdensome for Terran. If Terran gives up the 1 o'clock position, Protoss can produce an unlimited number of Interceptors, which was an issue I overlooked in my previous "Blitz Y" map. On the other hand, if Terran does not abandon the 1 o'clock position, unit movement paths become tangled. Additionally, the "eggs" as structures feel disadvantageous for Terran. Since they are treated as a "unit type," the activation speed of Probes and Drones becomes challenging to manage. Furthermore, removing eggs with Marines takes considerable time. Against Zerg, this could force Terran into a mechanical playstyle, which again suffers from slow mobility. This predicts unfavorable choices. Unlike "Monty Hall," there is no central way, making a "time attack" strategy impossible. The response I received was that they would "observe the games and review feedback." As far as I know, they are currently preparing a new test version alongside "Metropolis," but I do not know how or when it will be released. Personally, I think having 1-2 slightly "imbalanced" maps each season is acceptable if they showcase "diverse gameplay." Such maps can be addressed through the "ban" system. However, it has to be fun. I understand why people dislike gimmick maps, as there have been consistently unpleasant ones in the past. Personally, I would love to see an entertaining gimmick map. In my opinion, while 'Death Valley' might be slightly imbalanced, it seems like it could still be enjoyable to watch. * There are also opinions that the "unbuildable zones" in "Deja Vu SE" are excessive. What do others think about this? Even Mini, a Protoss player, mentioned that it might be too much. However, I believe that allowing even a small degree of building would negate the intended changes. Due to the map's structure, there are unfair starting positions that could give an advantage to Terran (for example, Terran at 5 vs Protoss at 7). At one point, I considered allowing one turret to be built in the 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock regions, but strategically, I think this would have minimal impact. However, I plan to ensure that no structures can be built at all at the entrance points.
I think that even if Death Valley is unbalanced, I do hope to see some very unique and interesting strategies on the map, which will give viewers memorable games. Ultimately, while we do want to see who the best players in the world are, we also are watching for our entertainment.
For Deja Vu changes, I have no examined the buildable terrain changes. I hope that we do not totally remove buildable terrain and give some options for Terran, similar to how Radeon's choke is set up with specific spots to build turrets. I think both Protoss and Terran players should give feedback to map maker to discuss what would be fair for buildable and unbuildable. I agree with no turrets right on top of the ramp, but maybe farther back is ok? Maybe just below the high ground in the center low ground area would be an acceptable area to build turrets so that a shuttle may still die, but will get the unload off on the zealots at least for a bust if Terran attempts to secure high ground. It would encourage Terran to at least feel like they must secure the Protoss's choke point and move forward, rather than sitting back and shelling Protoss area.
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On January 01 2025 14:20 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2025 10:06 POPsNemec wrote:On January 01 2025 01:20 FlaShFTW wrote:
Trying to theorycraft on Death Valley right now on whether you simply play normally then expand later to the bottom side, or if there's some kind of mind games by expanding to the egg natural quickly.
It's almost impossible to attack the egg natural unless you commit your production to the egg natural. But that makes you extremely vulnerable to attacks at your assimilator. And it's all a guessing game too, almost a little like Monty Hall.
Example 1: Both players play normal, leads to a normal game.
Example 2: Both players take egg natural with production in mains, probably just leads to a normalish game.
Example 3: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural with production in main. Egg natural player has slight advantage in that they only have to defend their assimilator/ramp while the opponent has to defend the natural choke and can't easily harass opponent's egg natural. So likely egg natural player has some advantage.
Example 4: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural but commits production to the egg natural. In this case, the normal player would probably have advantage and can sieze initiative with harassing the assimilator and getting up the ramp while egg natural player units must quickly break the eggs to get back on defense. Difficult especially for Terran and Zerg players who don't have high damage units to break though egg armor.
Example 5: One player takes normal natural BUT commits to egg natural production while other player takes egg natural and main production. In this case, it would turn into a very messy game, as the production is not on the same side of the map and both players may end up losing their naturals.
It feels like Terran may have some advantages on this map by being able to lift their buildings. If they guessed wrong, they can always lift their early rax/factory back to the main for example, or let's say they expand to egg natural but build production in main. They can quickly try to build bunker at egg natural while lifting their rax down to the low ground to produce a few marines to get set defensively. Of course, depending on the matchup like TvZ, might be too difficult to kill the eggs fast enough when mutas arrive, so that might not be an option in TvZ (but maybe mech could be good on this map to 1) kill eggs faster, and 2) take advantage of relatively safe 3rd gas).
I think for Protoss, the egg natural basically solves the issue with 3 hatch hydra play, since Zerg will want to take the egg natural as one of their bases rather than the multi at 1. This means Zerg can't reliably rush a Protoss since they'll have at minimum 1 hatchery not joining the attack (though Zerg could maybe play a very interesting style where they take egg natural as 2nd base, then take 6/9 as 3rd base and rush the bottom side of the map). I think 12 nex to the egg natural will also be very strong and maybe a rush into fast carriers, since how does Terran reliably punish a 12 nex? They could maybe BBS... but getting up the ramp into the main would be difficult, so maybe PvT will just be 12 nex vs 14 cc?
Zerg muta play will be very strong on this map as they can dance between the three bases especially with how the egg natural minerals are placed. Rushes seem pretty weak though as mentioned before, taking the egg natural means being cut off in your production and early game zerg will have struggles opening the eggs. I think this map will see quite a few games actually reach hive ZvZ, as taking the egg natural can be pretty safe (although maybe not to ling-allins since your hatches will be disconnected by ground). 12 hatch to the egg natural vs 9 pool would auto lose as the 9 pooling player would be able to get lings inside the main and you don't have the advantage of the extra larva from the 12 hatch to defend yourself (maybe they just immediately drop a sunken in their main and can freely drone at the egg natural since it can't be attacked). But also, if Zerg takes egg natural, there's a chance opponent could also theorize a sunken rush since they likely won't make lings at that location... Very curious for how ZvZ will play out. As you mentioned, Zerg vs. Zerg seems quite exciting. Mirror matchups tend to have fewer balance concerns, making them even more enjoyable to watch. Several users and map creators have pointed out structural issues with "Death Valley." From my perspective, the concept of a "separated battlefield" inherently feels structurally disadvantageous for Terran, which is typically slower in mobility. Earthattack’s idea, compared to the previous "Third World," was to design a map where the "first battlefield could be easily abandoned." However, I still think this idea remains burdensome for Terran. If Terran gives up the 1 o'clock position, Protoss can produce an unlimited number of Interceptors, which was an issue I overlooked in my previous "Blitz Y" map. On the other hand, if Terran does not abandon the 1 o'clock position, unit movement paths become tangled. Additionally, the "eggs" as structures feel disadvantageous for Terran. Since they are treated as a "unit type," the activation speed of Probes and Drones becomes challenging to manage. Furthermore, removing eggs with Marines takes considerable time. Against Zerg, this could force Terran into a mechanical playstyle, which again suffers from slow mobility. This predicts unfavorable choices. Unlike "Monty Hall," there is no central way, making a "time attack" strategy impossible. The response I received was that they would "observe the games and review feedback." As far as I know, they are currently preparing a new test version alongside "Metropolis," but I do not know how or when it will be released. Personally, I think having 1-2 slightly "imbalanced" maps each season is acceptable if they showcase "diverse gameplay." Such maps can be addressed through the "ban" system. However, it has to be fun. I understand why people dislike gimmick maps, as there have been consistently unpleasant ones in the past. Personally, I would love to see an entertaining gimmick map. In my opinion, while 'Death Valley' might be slightly imbalanced, it seems like it could still be enjoyable to watch. * There are also opinions that the "unbuildable zones" in "Deja Vu SE" are excessive. What do others think about this? Even Mini, a Protoss player, mentioned that it might be too much. However, I believe that allowing even a small degree of building would negate the intended changes. Due to the map's structure, there are unfair starting positions that could give an advantage to Terran (for example, Terran at 5 vs Protoss at 7). At one point, I considered allowing one turret to be built in the 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock regions, but strategically, I think this would have minimal impact. However, I plan to ensure that no structures can be built at all at the entrance points. I think that even if Death Valley is unbalanced, I do hope to see some very unique and interesting strategies on the map, which will give viewers memorable games. Ultimately, while we do want to see who the best players in the world are, we also are watching for our entertainment. For Deja Vu changes, I have no examined the buildable terrain changes. I hope that we do not totally remove buildable terrain and give some options for Terran, similar to how Radeon's choke is set up with specific spots to build turrets. I think both Protoss and Terran players should give feedback to map maker to discuss what would be fair for buildable and unbuildable. I agree with no turrets right on top of the ramp, but maybe farther back is ok? Maybe just below the high ground in the center low ground area would be an acceptable area to build turrets so that a shuttle may still die, but will get the unload off on the zealots at least for a bust if Terran attempts to secure high ground. It would encourage Terran to at least feel like they must secure the Protoss's choke point and move forward, rather than sitting back and shelling Protoss area.
Thank you for your feedback.
I will take into consideration the positions you mentioned.
To share my perspective, I believe your initial suggestion of allowing turret placement "slightly farther back from the ramp" is a good idea, and I will review and discuss it further.
(However, I think the central low-ground area below the ramp lacks sufficient strategic value, so it may not be accepted.)
As you noted, Terran's win rate tends to increase as maps are used more frequently due to their ability to adapt to layouts. For this reason, in standard 4-player maps, we must deliberately reduce convenience for Terran to maintain balance.
(While the changes in 'Radeon' were beneficial for average players, I believe they introduced elements that favor Terran in high-level play. That said, the AMD project's goals warranted giving Terran certain advantageous features.)
<Discussion>
Ideally, Terran and Protoss players would reach a consensus through discussions,
but SOOP manager '910' has been reluctant to hold public discussions since the 'Inner Coven' project.
This reluctance stems from witnessing too many instances where "productive discussions" devolved into "emotional conflicts."
To address this, I plan to observe test games until January 5 and use the results to establish a middle ground.
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Very cool stuff. How can download these maps?? I clicked the first link but there are photos only !?
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On January 01 2025 18:29 namkraft wrote:
Very cool stuff. How can download these maps?? I clicked the first link but there are photos only !?
You can download using it this link.
https://910map.tistory.com/214
Previously, the 910 manager uploaded map files individually.
However, due to security problem on the Tistory site, only compressed zip files can be uploaded from now on.
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On January 01 2025 19:44 POPsNemec wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2025 18:29 namkraft wrote:
Very cool stuff. How can download these maps?? I clicked the first link but there are photos only !?
You can download using it this link. https://910map.tistory.com/214Previously, the 910 manager uploaded map files individually. However, due to security problem on the Tistory site, only compressed zip files can be uploaded from now on.
Thanks! And which version fit to play? Sorry I'm a newb for these maps.
(fog) version
(Ob) version
and plain version (nothing in bracket)
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On January 02 2025 02:11 namkraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2025 19:44 POPsNemec wrote:On January 01 2025 18:29 namkraft wrote:
Very cool stuff. How can download these maps?? I clicked the first link but there are photos only !?
You can download using it this link. https://910map.tistory.com/214Previously, the 910 manager uploaded map files individually. However, due to security problem on the Tistory site, only compressed zip files can be uploaded from now on. Thanks! And which version fit to play? Sorry I'm a newb for these maps. (fog) version (Ob) version and plain version (nothing in bracket)
Plain version: Normal Melee map.
(ob) version: A version with observer forces (for use map setting).
(fog) version: A version with fog of war processing, allowing visibility on the minimap (for use map setting).
When testing, I wished pro gamers had played using the (fog) version. However, most players are unfamiliar with this.
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Is there a way to suggest maps to be used in ASL?
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On January 02 2025 17:57 SiaBBo wrote:
Is there a way to suggest maps to be used in ASL?
My recommended approach is to wait until the SSL finals are over and preparations for the next season begin.
At that time, you can reach out to Manager 910 via email at kangkuyol@naver.com and make your maps.
If any of the maps you attach catch his interest, he may reach out to you.
In the past, maps like Good Night(ASL S12) and Champion(ASL S16) were selected, but I’m not sure about the exact process behind their selection, as I’m not directly involved in such matters.
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United States10253 Posts
On January 01 2025 16:27 POPsNemec wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2025 14:20 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 01 2025 10:06 POPsNemec wrote:On January 01 2025 01:20 FlaShFTW wrote:
Trying to theorycraft on Death Valley right now on whether you simply play normally then expand later to the bottom side, or if there's some kind of mind games by expanding to the egg natural quickly.
It's almost impossible to attack the egg natural unless you commit your production to the egg natural. But that makes you extremely vulnerable to attacks at your assimilator. And it's all a guessing game too, almost a little like Monty Hall.
Example 1: Both players play normal, leads to a normal game.
Example 2: Both players take egg natural with production in mains, probably just leads to a normalish game.
Example 3: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural with production in main. Egg natural player has slight advantage in that they only have to defend their assimilator/ramp while the opponent has to defend the natural choke and can't easily harass opponent's egg natural. So likely egg natural player has some advantage.
Example 4: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural but commits production to the egg natural. In this case, the normal player would probably have advantage and can sieze initiative with harassing the assimilator and getting up the ramp while egg natural player units must quickly break the eggs to get back on defense. Difficult especially for Terran and Zerg players who don't have high damage units to break though egg armor.
Example 5: One player takes normal natural BUT commits to egg natural production while other player takes egg natural and main production. In this case, it would turn into a very messy game, as the production is not on the same side of the map and both players may end up losing their naturals.
It feels like Terran may have some advantages on this map by being able to lift their buildings. If they guessed wrong, they can always lift their early rax/factory back to the main for example, or let's say they expand to egg natural but build production in main. They can quickly try to build bunker at egg natural while lifting their rax down to the low ground to produce a few marines to get set defensively. Of course, depending on the matchup like TvZ, might be too difficult to kill the eggs fast enough when mutas arrive, so that might not be an option in TvZ (but maybe mech could be good on this map to 1) kill eggs faster, and 2) take advantage of relatively safe 3rd gas).
I think for Protoss, the egg natural basically solves the issue with 3 hatch hydra play, since Zerg will want to take the egg natural as one of their bases rather than the multi at 1. This means Zerg can't reliably rush a Protoss since they'll have at minimum 1 hatchery not joining the attack (though Zerg could maybe play a very interesting style where they take egg natural as 2nd base, then take 6/9 as 3rd base and rush the bottom side of the map). I think 12 nex to the egg natural will also be very strong and maybe a rush into fast carriers, since how does Terran reliably punish a 12 nex? They could maybe BBS... but getting up the ramp into the main would be difficult, so maybe PvT will just be 12 nex vs 14 cc?
Zerg muta play will be very strong on this map as they can dance between the three bases especially with how the egg natural minerals are placed. Rushes seem pretty weak though as mentioned before, taking the egg natural means being cut off in your production and early game zerg will have struggles opening the eggs. I think this map will see quite a few games actually reach hive ZvZ, as taking the egg natural can be pretty safe (although maybe not to ling-allins since your hatches will be disconnected by ground). 12 hatch to the egg natural vs 9 pool would auto lose as the 9 pooling player would be able to get lings inside the main and you don't have the advantage of the extra larva from the 12 hatch to defend yourself (maybe they just immediately drop a sunken in their main and can freely drone at the egg natural since it can't be attacked). But also, if Zerg takes egg natural, there's a chance opponent could also theorize a sunken rush since they likely won't make lings at that location... Very curious for how ZvZ will play out. As you mentioned, Zerg vs. Zerg seems quite exciting. Mirror matchups tend to have fewer balance concerns, making them even more enjoyable to watch. Several users and map creators have pointed out structural issues with "Death Valley." From my perspective, the concept of a "separated battlefield" inherently feels structurally disadvantageous for Terran, which is typically slower in mobility. Earthattack’s idea, compared to the previous "Third World," was to design a map where the "first battlefield could be easily abandoned." However, I still think this idea remains burdensome for Terran. If Terran gives up the 1 o'clock position, Protoss can produce an unlimited number of Interceptors, which was an issue I overlooked in my previous "Blitz Y" map. On the other hand, if Terran does not abandon the 1 o'clock position, unit movement paths become tangled. Additionally, the "eggs" as structures feel disadvantageous for Terran. Since they are treated as a "unit type," the activation speed of Probes and Drones becomes challenging to manage. Furthermore, removing eggs with Marines takes considerable time. Against Zerg, this could force Terran into a mechanical playstyle, which again suffers from slow mobility. This predicts unfavorable choices. Unlike "Monty Hall," there is no central way, making a "time attack" strategy impossible. The response I received was that they would "observe the games and review feedback." As far as I know, they are currently preparing a new test version alongside "Metropolis," but I do not know how or when it will be released. Personally, I think having 1-2 slightly "imbalanced" maps each season is acceptable if they showcase "diverse gameplay." Such maps can be addressed through the "ban" system. However, it has to be fun. I understand why people dislike gimmick maps, as there have been consistently unpleasant ones in the past. Personally, I would love to see an entertaining gimmick map. In my opinion, while 'Death Valley' might be slightly imbalanced, it seems like it could still be enjoyable to watch. * There are also opinions that the "unbuildable zones" in "Deja Vu SE" are excessive. What do others think about this? Even Mini, a Protoss player, mentioned that it might be too much. However, I believe that allowing even a small degree of building would negate the intended changes. Due to the map's structure, there are unfair starting positions that could give an advantage to Terran (for example, Terran at 5 vs Protoss at 7). At one point, I considered allowing one turret to be built in the 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock regions, but strategically, I think this would have minimal impact. However, I plan to ensure that no structures can be built at all at the entrance points. I think that even if Death Valley is unbalanced, I do hope to see some very unique and interesting strategies on the map, which will give viewers memorable games. Ultimately, while we do want to see who the best players in the world are, we also are watching for our entertainment. For Deja Vu changes, I have no examined the buildable terrain changes. I hope that we do not totally remove buildable terrain and give some options for Terran, similar to how Radeon's choke is set up with specific spots to build turrets. I think both Protoss and Terran players should give feedback to map maker to discuss what would be fair for buildable and unbuildable. I agree with no turrets right on top of the ramp, but maybe farther back is ok? Maybe just below the high ground in the center low ground area would be an acceptable area to build turrets so that a shuttle may still die, but will get the unload off on the zealots at least for a bust if Terran attempts to secure high ground. It would encourage Terran to at least feel like they must secure the Protoss's choke point and move forward, rather than sitting back and shelling Protoss area. Thank you for your feedback. I will take into consideration the positions you mentioned. To share my perspective, I believe your initial suggestion of allowing turret placement "slightly farther back from the ramp" is a good idea, and I will review and discuss it further. (However, I think the central low-ground area below the ramp lacks sufficient strategic value, so it may not be accepted.) As you noted, Terran's win rate tends to increase as maps are used more frequently due to their ability to adapt to layouts. For this reason, in standard 4-player maps, we must deliberately reduce convenience for Terran to maintain balance. (While the changes in 'Radeon' were beneficial for average players, I believe they introduced elements that favor Terran in high-level play. That said, the AMD project's goals warranted giving Terran certain advantageous features.) <Discussion> Ideally, Terran and Protoss players would reach a consensus through discussions, but SOOP manager '910' has been reluctant to hold public discussions since the 'Inner Coven' project. This reluctance stems from witnessing too many instances where "productive discussions" devolved into "emotional conflicts." To address this, I plan to observe test games until January 5 and use the results to establish a middle ground.
Thanks for all your comments and the discussion we're having. I appreciate reaching out to our community to get our feedback and comments.
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On January 03 2025 03:34 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2025 16:27 POPsNemec wrote:On January 01 2025 14:20 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 01 2025 10:06 POPsNemec wrote:On January 01 2025 01:20 FlaShFTW wrote:
Trying to theorycraft on Death Valley right now on whether you simply play normally then expand later to the bottom side, or if there's some kind of mind games by expanding to the egg natural quickly.
It's almost impossible to attack the egg natural unless you commit your production to the egg natural. But that makes you extremely vulnerable to attacks at your assimilator. And it's all a guessing game too, almost a little like Monty Hall.
Example 1: Both players play normal, leads to a normal game.
Example 2: Both players take egg natural with production in mains, probably just leads to a normalish game.
Example 3: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural with production in main. Egg natural player has slight advantage in that they only have to defend their assimilator/ramp while the opponent has to defend the natural choke and can't easily harass opponent's egg natural. So likely egg natural player has some advantage.
Example 4: One player plays normal, one player takes egg natural but commits production to the egg natural. In this case, the normal player would probably have advantage and can sieze initiative with harassing the assimilator and getting up the ramp while egg natural player units must quickly break the eggs to get back on defense. Difficult especially for Terran and Zerg players who don't have high damage units to break though egg armor.
Example 5: One player takes normal natural BUT commits to egg natural production while other player takes egg natural and main production. In this case, it would turn into a very messy game, as the production is not on the same side of the map and both players may end up losing their naturals.
It feels like Terran may have some advantages on this map by being able to lift their buildings. If they guessed wrong, they can always lift their early rax/factory back to the main for example, or let's say they expand to egg natural but build production in main. They can quickly try to build bunker at egg natural while lifting their rax down to the low ground to produce a few marines to get set defensively. Of course, depending on the matchup like TvZ, might be too difficult to kill the eggs fast enough when mutas arrive, so that might not be an option in TvZ (but maybe mech could be good on this map to 1) kill eggs faster, and 2) take advantage of relatively safe 3rd gas).
I think for Protoss, the egg natural basically solves the issue with 3 hatch hydra play, since Zerg will want to take the egg natural as one of their bases rather than the multi at 1. This means Zerg can't reliably rush a Protoss since they'll have at minimum 1 hatchery not joining the attack (though Zerg could maybe play a very interesting style where they take egg natural as 2nd base, then take 6/9 as 3rd base and rush the bottom side of the map). I think 12 nex to the egg natural will also be very strong and maybe a rush into fast carriers, since how does Terran reliably punish a 12 nex? They could maybe BBS... but getting up the ramp into the main would be difficult, so maybe PvT will just be 12 nex vs 14 cc?
Zerg muta play will be very strong on this map as they can dance between the three bases especially with how the egg natural minerals are placed. Rushes seem pretty weak though as mentioned before, taking the egg natural means being cut off in your production and early game zerg will have struggles opening the eggs. I think this map will see quite a few games actually reach hive ZvZ, as taking the egg natural can be pretty safe (although maybe not to ling-allins since your hatches will be disconnected by ground). 12 hatch to the egg natural vs 9 pool would auto lose as the 9 pooling player would be able to get lings inside the main and you don't have the advantage of the extra larva from the 12 hatch to defend yourself (maybe they just immediately drop a sunken in their main and can freely drone at the egg natural since it can't be attacked). But also, if Zerg takes egg natural, there's a chance opponent could also theorize a sunken rush since they likely won't make lings at that location... Very curious for how ZvZ will play out. As you mentioned, Zerg vs. Zerg seems quite exciting. Mirror matchups tend to have fewer balance concerns, making them even more enjoyable to watch. Several users and map creators have pointed out structural issues with "Death Valley." From my perspective, the concept of a "separated battlefield" inherently feels structurally disadvantageous for Terran, which is typically slower in mobility. Earthattack’s idea, compared to the previous "Third World," was to design a map where the "first battlefield could be easily abandoned." However, I still think this idea remains burdensome for Terran. If Terran gives up the 1 o'clock position, Protoss can produce an unlimited number of Interceptors, which was an issue I overlooked in my previous "Blitz Y" map. On the other hand, if Terran does not abandon the 1 o'clock position, unit movement paths become tangled. Additionally, the "eggs" as structures feel disadvantageous for Terran. Since they are treated as a "unit type," the activation speed of Probes and Drones becomes challenging to manage. Furthermore, removing eggs with Marines takes considerable time. Against Zerg, this could force Terran into a mechanical playstyle, which again suffers from slow mobility. This predicts unfavorable choices. Unlike "Monty Hall," there is no central way, making a "time attack" strategy impossible. The response I received was that they would "observe the games and review feedback." As far as I know, they are currently preparing a new test version alongside "Metropolis," but I do not know how or when it will be released. Personally, I think having 1-2 slightly "imbalanced" maps each season is acceptable if they showcase "diverse gameplay." Such maps can be addressed through the "ban" system. However, it has to be fun. I understand why people dislike gimmick maps, as there have been consistently unpleasant ones in the past. Personally, I would love to see an entertaining gimmick map. In my opinion, while 'Death Valley' might be slightly imbalanced, it seems like it could still be enjoyable to watch. * There are also opinions that the "unbuildable zones" in "Deja Vu SE" are excessive. What do others think about this? Even Mini, a Protoss player, mentioned that it might be too much. However, I believe that allowing even a small degree of building would negate the intended changes. Due to the map's structure, there are unfair starting positions that could give an advantage to Terran (for example, Terran at 5 vs Protoss at 7). At one point, I considered allowing one turret to be built in the 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock regions, but strategically, I think this would have minimal impact. However, I plan to ensure that no structures can be built at all at the entrance points. I think that even if Death Valley is unbalanced, I do hope to see some very unique and interesting strategies on the map, which will give viewers memorable games. Ultimately, while we do want to see who the best players in the world are, we also are watching for our entertainment. For Deja Vu changes, I have no examined the buildable terrain changes. I hope that we do not totally remove buildable terrain and give some options for Terran, similar to how Radeon's choke is set up with specific spots to build turrets. I think both Protoss and Terran players should give feedback to map maker to discuss what would be fair for buildable and unbuildable. I agree with no turrets right on top of the ramp, but maybe farther back is ok? Maybe just below the high ground in the center low ground area would be an acceptable area to build turrets so that a shuttle may still die, but will get the unload off on the zealots at least for a bust if Terran attempts to secure high ground. It would encourage Terran to at least feel like they must secure the Protoss's choke point and move forward, rather than sitting back and shelling Protoss area. Thank you for your feedback. I will take into consideration the positions you mentioned. To share my perspective, I believe your initial suggestion of allowing turret placement "slightly farther back from the ramp" is a good idea, and I will review and discuss it further. (However, I think the central low-ground area below the ramp lacks sufficient strategic value, so it may not be accepted.) As you noted, Terran's win rate tends to increase as maps are used more frequently due to their ability to adapt to layouts. For this reason, in standard 4-player maps, we must deliberately reduce convenience for Terran to maintain balance. (While the changes in 'Radeon' were beneficial for average players, I believe they introduced elements that favor Terran in high-level play. That said, the AMD project's goals warranted giving Terran certain advantageous features.) <Discussion> Ideally, Terran and Protoss players would reach a consensus through discussions, but SOOP manager '910' has been reluctant to hold public discussions since the 'Inner Coven' project. This reluctance stems from witnessing too many instances where "productive discussions" devolved into "emotional conflicts." To address this, I plan to observe test games until January 5 and use the results to establish a middle ground. Thanks for all your comments and the discussion we're having. I appreciate reaching out to our community to get our feedback and comments.
I would like to clarify that the opinions I share here are solely my personal views and not official statements.
(I'm not a SOOP employee.)
The reason for my visit here is to gather as many diverse opinions as possible.
(If SOOP truly aims for globalization, having diverse communication channels is essential, even if they cannot accommodate everything. However, I’m unsure how much interaction you have with SOOP.)
That said, foreign communities, including TL, are not easily accessible to Korean users.
This is often due to cultural differences or difficulties in fully understanding what is being discussed.
(I’m not aware of other foreign communities, though I’ve seen some Discord channels mentioned on YouTube.)
However, based on my occasional visits, I feel that the perspectives on maps among Korean and foreign viewers don’t differ significantly. (Some prefer standard maps, while others dislike creative maps. Korean users share similar sentiments, leaning towards conservative preferences.)
You might also be curious about where Korean users are active.
Let me introduce some Korean communities.
https://www.fmkorea.com/starcraft
Most users and viewers are active in a community called "fmkorea."
(It’s somewhat similar to the older Starcraft gallery on DCinside or YGOSU.)
However, this community doesn’t solely focus on Starcraft gameplay—it also covers topics related to female streamers playing Starcraft, as well as various current events and daily life discussions.
If you're curious about other maps created by Korean users, I can introduce another community. "SCM05."
https://cafe.naver.com/scm05
Since September 2023, I’ve resumed managing this community as a hobby.
(It’s a community for hobbyist map creators and has no connection with SOOP.)
Although it’s in Korean, you can find notes on the production of some official maps and their behind stories.
(We also translated some of the posts from TL and processed them into resources.)
One downside is that this community uses Naver, a Korean portal site, which can be difficult to access.
Due to security reasons, you need to sign up to view the posts.
https://cafe.naver.com/scm05/1385
I’ll leave a link explaining the sign-up process.
(If any part of the instructions seems awkward due to translation, feel free to leave a comment!)
This will probably be my last comment for this season.
As 2025 has begun, I wish you a wonderful year ahead!
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Netherlands5198 Posts
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Netherlands5198 Posts
Not sure I like the change. Feels like it could use a version in between. Pathing should be better on the new one at least.
Have gas values in main/nat changed with the added gas on the mineral only bases?
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Yeah, some drastic changes and I'm really not sure I like most of them. That upper area seems without any particular purpose and what's up with that weird very small high ground leading to nowhere in the middle?
Meh..
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EPT![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2Fcuy4L2%2FbtsLrldRNnK%2FLoT7QeBGFa0g6Sl4NMGCu0%2Fimg.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FchkcUB%2FbtsLELJd5B5%2FU7AlbK7A1Gz1J5sQKWaKkk%2Fimg.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/tUJaVaD.gif)
