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On December 25 2024 10:13 SCRVN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2024 11:39 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
I don't think any of these 3 maps would be fit for competition. Can see some huge balance issues with these that are bigger than the ones Monty and Troy had. Can you show to me some issues balance of them? In your words, there is an answer why kjw1090zz's maps should be picked. SSL needs some maps like Monty and Troy, and audiences need too. SSL was made for entertainment, making money. It's not real for competition. Do you know a nice map, will look like? 99% of people like it or dislike it, it's a nice map. btw, Metropolis is one of the most imbalance map I've seen. Terran can't lose in this, except to they afk
Naraka is a 20 base map with a terrible layout and too many gimmicks.
Everlasting has a terrible spawn layout and would just be crazy bad if two players spawned next to each other. same reason lost temple is terrible.
Last map has terrible spawn locations and bad base sizes. The maps are just terrible for competition at high level.
I am 100% against gimmick maps. sometimes they produce good games. most of the time the matches aren't that good because the limits it imposes on players start to unfairly favor a race and makes it too imbalanced. Troy for example had largely bad games. it had a 65% toss vs zerg winrate. Monty had a 67% zerg vs toss winrate.. thats just mega imbalanced and bad.
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Love this. Good maps.
Radeon, Déjà Vu, and Dominator are nice and comfy, with no major issues there.
Metropolis looks like a FS remix with strangely shaped mains and a center expo with stacked minerals. I like this. Let's see how the shape of the main influences muta timings in ZvT. I think there might be more design space to explore with expansions featuring stacked minerals, and this is a good start (one expansion at the center).
Pole Star – 16 expansions, 16 gas, macro-heavy map. Expect long games here. Looks good to me.
Death Valley – The experimental map of the season. I have no idea how this might play out, but it's just a single map, so I think it’s fine. Looks interesting tbh with plenty of potential for interesting scenarios. Let's see whether it passes playtests.
Anonymous - gimmick map. Whatever... it's not gonna make it past test phase.
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also stop discussing what you think might have been better maps instead. noone cares, it doesnt matter and its off-topic
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Metropolis remind me a lot this map called Beltway ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/f/fd/Beltway.jpg/600px-Beltway.jpg)
Is it a remake ?
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
Death Valley looks awesome and fun to play!
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On December 27 2024 07:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Metropolis remind me a lot this map called Beltway Is it a remake ?
The main layout does look quite similar! Whether something is considered a remake likely depends on what one considers the defining features of a map. To me, it feels more like we recognized that certain features of a map (like the main shape in Beltway) might be interesting to explore within the design space.
I think there's a lot of potential here. Many maps were considered interesting because of a specific feature. It's possible that the map as a whole wasn't deemed "good," but certain features were seen as interesting, examined, and re-imagined in a new way.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50600 Posts
On December 27 2024 07:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Metropolis remind me a lot this map called Beltway Is it a remake ?
good ol TvT central beltway
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On December 27 2024 07:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Metropolis remind me a lot this map called Beltway Is it a remake ?
Only the main base shapes look a bit similar, nothing else.
But anyway.. Beltway was a cool map.
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On December 27 2024 02:07 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Naraka is a 20 base map with a terrible layout and too many gimmicks.
Everlasting has a terrible spawn layout and would just be crazy bad if two players spawned next to each other. same reason lost temple is terrible.
Last map has terrible spawn locations and bad base sizes. The maps are just terrible for competition at high level.
I am 100% against gimmick maps. sometimes they produce good games. most of the time the matches aren't that good because the limits it imposes on players start to unfairly favor a race and makes it too imbalanced. Troy for example had largely bad games. it had a 65% toss vs zerg winrate. Monty had a 67% zerg vs toss winrate.. thats just mega imbalanced and bad.
A 20 base map is a good map, atleast for me. On Naraka, you need to think about kind of your units to fit Dark Swarm, D-Web, ground and movement on this map needs skillfull, smart, and vision. These good things really need for real contest.
(4)Everlasting is good like Python, Horizon Lunar Colony. Lost temple was a bad map because of dropping at nature base, not two players spawned next to each other. The places lead to mind game, you can be easy to drop or rush muta but your opponent prepares to defend easy too.
(3)진달래 is good like Pathfinder, Alchemist. The main base isn't small like you think, do you know Lemon map? (3)진달래 is very balance, it's far enough to fast expand safely, it's 3 island bases for the weakest race (P) get a little advantage. While island base maps are so terrible for Zerg, Terran, so semi-island or 2 players have to play on 5 bases and the other bases on outside is nice idea.
Death Valley = Third World favor Protoss
Anonymous = Holy World favor Zerg
Metropolis = Andromeda favor Terrran
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out of curiosity, what do map makers gain from making these maps?
do they get royalties, or is it just for the love of the game and the fame of being a good mapmaker?
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On December 28 2024 22:48 29 fps wrote:
out of curiosity, what do map makers gain from making these maps?
do they get royalties, or is it just for the love of the game and the fame of being a good mapmaker?
I'm pretty sure the reality of map making (even for S. Korean tournaments) is much closer to the latter than to the former.
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Netherlands5198 Posts
Maybe Freakling can shine some light on that, as his (semi-)island map made it into ASL one time.
Wintered Korean map makers might get a fair money compensation? I remember ASL approaching Korean map makers, so I imagine they receive payment when ASL has an idea they want to be translated into a new map.
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On December 28 2024 09:09 SCRVN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2024 02:07 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Naraka is a 20 base map with a terrible layout and too many gimmicks.
Everlasting has a terrible spawn layout and would just be crazy bad if two players spawned next to each other. same reason lost temple is terrible.
Last map has terrible spawn locations and bad base sizes. The maps are just terrible for competition at high level.
I am 100% against gimmick maps. sometimes they produce good games. most of the time the matches aren't that good because the limits it imposes on players start to unfairly favor a race and makes it too imbalanced. Troy for example had largely bad games. it had a 65% toss vs zerg winrate. Monty had a 67% zerg vs toss winrate.. thats just mega imbalanced and bad. A 20 base map is a good map, atleast for me. On Naraka, you need to think about kind of your units to fit Dark Swarm, D-Web, ground and movement on this map needs skillfull, smart, and vision. These good things really need for real contest. (4)Everlasting is good like Python, Horizon Lunar Colony. Lost temple was a bad map because of dropping at nature base, not two players spawned next to each other. The places lead to mind game, you can be easy to drop or rush muta but your opponent prepares to defend easy too. (3)진달래 is good like Pathfinder, Alchemist. The main base isn't small like you think, do you know Lemon map? (3)진달래 is very balance, it's far enough to fast expand safely, it's 3 island bases for the weakest race (P) get a little advantage. While island base maps are so terrible for Zerg, Terran, so semi-island or 2 players have to play on 5 bases and the other bases on outside is nice idea. Death Valley = Third World favor Protoss Anonymous = Holy World favor Zerg Metropolis = Andromeda favor Terrran
All the things you listed make them bad maps in my opinion. Python is bad. Horizon Lunar Colony somewhat different and much better than everlasting but also not a great map. Pathfinder and alchemist are bad maps too.
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51507 Posts
On December 29 2024 02:31 Peeano wrote:
Maybe Freakling can shine some light on that, as his (semi-)island map made it into ASL one time.
Wintered Korean map makers might get a fair money compensation? I remember ASL approaching Korean map makers, so I imagine they receive payment when ASL has an idea they want to be translated into a new map.
at least for vermeer/radeon, AMD put in a bit of money as an incentive to the map makers and players in exchange for the brand exposure.
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On December 29 2024 06:19 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
All the things you listed make them bad maps in my opinion. Python is bad. Horizon Lunar Colony somewhat different and much better than everlasting but also not a great map. Pathfinder and alchemist are bad maps too.
You told about competition, but do you know why gosu/leagure/tournament don't use kind of fastest map for competition? It's so easy, players will have resource, land to build building, train army, make big combat... When you have everything, what things do show your skills/talents?
SSL/BSL/ASL/OSL/MSL/ProLeague know "bad" maps need/help leagues/players exist. StarCraft is the best balance game because it's 3 race with rock-paper-scissors gameplay. Therefore, "bad" and unbalance maps are not matter.
Fighting Spirit 1.3 is famous and beloved map because of convenience. This map is too unbalanced about places (3rd base safe for one but unsafe for the other), favor so much Terran (the weakest race without pro-players) except cross spawn.
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Updated MP:
(2)DeathValley0.80
(4)Metropolis0.80
(4)Pole Star 0.91
*기존 맵 수정*
(4)Deja Vu SE 1.95
(3)Dominator SE 1.9
*기존맵*
(2)Eclipse 1.3
(4)Radeon 1.0
Cant believe they bringing back eclipse xD
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United States10253 Posts
I mean Eclipse on eloboard is one of the most balanced maps (though we've seen 2p standard maps be pretty good for balance). Considering last SSL we had an abominations in Minstrel and Monty Hall, I don't mind a turn back to more standard maps.
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51507 Posts
damn they scrapped anonymous that quickly? shame.
no changes to eclipse as well outside of the in-game text changing any references to afreeca to soop.
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Best Map Pool in years! no gimmick maps, no bad maps. All looks hihh quality without crazy imbalances. expecting more quality games than we got from SSL1.
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EPT
