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Russian Federation1894 Posts
@chenchuan, Our perspective on wrongdoing may vastly differ because of cultural differences rather than any deliberate harm towards the Chinese community.
Many voices here have pointed to ZZZero's efforts in bridging our communities, including inviting top Chinese players and adjusting schedules to accommodate them. Time adjusting, for example, have ripple effects on multiple tournaments, requiring coordination with a group of another tournaments admins to avoid clashing. ZZZero has not asked for anything in return for these efforts.
As an ethnic Russian from Vladivostok, I have some knowledge of Chinese principles from my school days, including the concept of "huli huhui." Here is a question for you to think: Can you name any reciprocal actions from the Chinese community in this specific BSL context we're discussing? Most likely you cannot, and it must be seen as strong evidence of ZZZero's sincerity.
Regarding streaming to Chinese platforms and using Chinese services, having local ambassador support is crucial because simple sign in in such platforms as Douyu and WeChat is challenging for a laowai. If you're interested in representing BSL in China or establishing contact with the right person, it might be beneficial for both parties and lead to a mutually beneficial outcome. This particular piece of a "plain English" advice would stem from the wisdom of a nation that values win-win solutions.
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On January 28 2024 13:58 Rus_Brain wrote:
@chenchuan, Our perspective on wrongdoing may vastly differ because of cultural differences rather than any deliberate harm towards the Chinese community.
Many voices here have pointed to ZZZero's efforts in bridging our communities, including inviting top Chinese players and adjusting schedules to accommodate them. Time adjusting, for example, have ripple effects on multiple tournaments, requiring coordination with a group of another tournaments admins to avoid clashing. ZZZero has not asked for anything in return for these efforts.
As an ethnic Russian from Vladivostok, I have some knowledge of Chinese principles from my school days, including the concept of "huli huhui." Here is a question for you to think: Can you name any reciprocal actions from the Chinese community in this specific BSL context we're discussing? Most likely you cannot, and it must be seen as strong evidence of ZZZero's sincerity.
Regarding streaming to Chinese platforms and using Chinese services, having local ambassador support is crucial because simple sign in in such platforms as Douyu and WeChat is challenging for a laowai. If you're interested in representing BSL in China or establishing contact with the right person, it might be beneficial for both parties and lead to a mutually beneficial outcome. This particular piece of a "plain English" advice would stem from the wisdom of a nation that values win-win solutions.
I am not here to argue right or wrong with you.I am just providing a method for you to obtain sponsorship from China.
I have already made it very clear earlier.You cannot attract audiences from China.Collaborating with Chinese anchors to hold competitions is the only way to receive sponsorship from China.
This statement is like a concept of partnership.I hope you can understand what I mean.The audience cannot gather together, but the prize money can.
Mr. Zero used to have more contact with Chinese contestants in the past.By doing so, you can only receive Chinese contestants, but you cannot receive Chinese bonuses.
I hope someone can communicate directly with Mr. Zero.Tell him to try as much as possible to communicate and cooperate with Chinese anchors.Please note that what I am referring to here has always been a Chinese anchor, who is also the organizer of the Chinese interstellar competition.
Simply inviting Chinese athletes to participate is not beneficial for you.But Chinese anchors can help you raise funds and increase your visibility.
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On January 28 2024 00:13 chenchuan wrote:
I can tell you very clearly.It is absolutely impossible for Chinese audiences to watch any content on Twitch.
Considering this, which is my understanding too, changing the times to accomodate live Chinese viewership is irrelevant. But providing a clean feed to willing/paying Chinese broadcasters after the live taping seems like it solves the issue.
The time accomodations really only effect the players, so that should be considered for all regions, but the viewing time is less important if watching it live for Chinese folks isn't even an option.
Same as rebroadcasts of any global sporting event.
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On January 24 2024 01:46 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2024 17:22 Rus_Brain wrote:
That will be a real challenge to convince Chiense to donate to the laowai online/LAN tournament. If Chinese players play in it, and make money from it, Chinese fans should donate
I had posted responses to comments like this in Discord previously, but I will respond here again.
Please check the facts before making some overall comments - it's pretty easy.
Chinese viewers do sponsor - We just received ~$740 from two Chinese sponsors yesterday. They didn't donate because they love watching BSL (there's almost no audience in mainland China, as people need to use a VPN); they did it because Mihu had won three championships. I have personally donated $600+ to BSL, too. It is unfair to ask Chinese viewers to donate to BSL when they don't watch it. But if we can keep the communication flowing, we might get some significant sponsors in China interested and involved.
Dewalt is another example. I hope you all watched his many show matches since he went to Korea earlier this month. When the connection is not an issue, and you have someone from China to stream, Chinese viewers like to see him play against top Chinese players. I have sponsored $160+ so far, and several other ppl sponsored show matches as well. There will be another bo7 between him and Xiaoshuai tomorrow.
At last, I want the efforts of volunteers from China, including myself, to be seen. We helped coordinate between the Chinese players and other BSL participants, test speed, interpret, and arrange pre-plays. Jindi uploaded and updated all the statistics on Liquipedia. I helped transfer funds in RMB to the Chinese players and paid all the transaction fees myself.
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On January 25 2024 03:21 kAra wrote:
how bad is the ping issue vs china?
i guess making it a fight for pride and hosting a "the world" (without korea of course) vs "china" could pull in some viewers from both camps
Connection has always been an issue. Unfortunately, it seems Blizzard is the only one who can fix it. When I first came to TL and tried to host show matches around 2018, the games were almost unplayable. When I organized the first EU vs China event in 2021 together with Zero, we could only get TR16 High. We have made numerous tests and worked with Sanpao (the no.1 BW streamer in China) to find a solution, but it is impossible.
On the other hand, Chinese players can play under TR24 low smoothly with Korean players, and multiple show matches are played daily with top Korean amateurs & ex-pros.
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personally, I think that Chinese players in BSL gave a big breath of fresh air. The foreign scene is definitely staling, no new players (it's probably shrinking tbh) and the overall ranking is always about the same.
Chinese players are great and they are tough opponents, generally a bit stronger than the rest of the foreign scene but not totally impossible to overcome.
Of course there are other things to be considered from the organizers: lag, scheduling, donations, sponsors, etc.
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Chinese players make BSL very competitive. I also see it very wrong people saying over and over that chineses are not bringing money or sponsors. If i was ZZZero i will be so happy those high level players were taking part of my tourney so i can show the world a better competition. But well that is me i guess. ZZZero made BSL to crown the best starcraft player outside Korea so im not sure if bringing koreans to the pool changes the vision. But is true that evolution is good so who knows.
Also is kinda crazy the job that calvinbobo does to make the life easier to chinese players. Im not exagerating when im saying the guy does a job of a personal manager. Interpret and didnt know he also took care of finances. He is doing all that job at crazy hours. So props to him for real. Idk if the chinese players are paying him but what he does is insane.
I been part of the scene for a long time. I used to play tourneys for 10$ When yoda was doing tourneys at defiler.ru
These days ZZZero gets more than 7000$ to each BSL season. All of that coming from people willing to donate to the less skilled competition in Starcraft. (Korea, China are better it is what it is.) I kind of miss the days were people actually loved to play the game and make fun tournaments rather than be focused on. If we reach this amount im going to make a tourney. Or if we reach this amount im gonna do this. In my opinion that is a wrong aproach. And the most important is be sure what audience do you want to reach. How do you expect to reach chinese viewers if they cant even watch twitch or the time zone is terrible for them to watch ? Like i said before foreigner BW tier skill is super low. Who in his right mind gonna wake up at 4 am to watch Madinho vs Gosudark fighting each other for 40 minutes making blunders. Lets be real. ( Nothing personal Madinho. Just an example bro  )
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On January 28 2024 00:13 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 00:46 Rus_Brain wrote:
@chenchuan, how would you describe ZZZero's sincerity to pleasing a Chinese viewer and securing a Chinese sponsor in clear and straightforward English in your opinion? Firstly, your current thinking is completely wrong.I can tell you very clearly.It is absolutely impossible for Chinese audiences to watch any content on Twitch.
I manage, but I browse the web scientifically
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On January 30 2024 01:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Like i said before foreigner BW tier skill is super low.
You weren't at the Thailand LAN, but Bonyth and Dewalt beat Sharp multiple times off stream. How can that happen when their skill is super low?
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On January 30 2024 01:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Chinese players make BSL very competitive. I also see it very wrong people saying over and over that chineses are not bringing money or sponsors. If i was ZZZero i will be so happy those high level players were taking part of my tourney so i can show the world a better competition. But well that is me i guess. ZZZero made BSL to crown the best starcraft player outside Korea so im not sure if bringing koreans to the pool changes the vision. But is true that evolution is good so who knows. Also is kinda crazy the job that calvinbobo does to make the life easier to chinese players. Im not exagerating when im saying the guy does a job of a personal manager. Interpret and didnt know he also took care of finances. He is doing all that job at crazy hours. So props to him for real. Idk if the chinese players are paying him but what he does is insane. I been part of the scene for a long time. I used to play tourneys for 10$ When yoda was doing tourneys at defiler.ru These days ZZZero gets more than 7000$ to each BSL season. All of that coming from people willing to donate to the less skilled competition in Starcraft. (Korea, China are better it is what it is.) I kind of miss the days were people actually loved to play the game and make fun tournaments rather than be focused on. If we reach this amount im going to make a tourney. Or if we reach this amount im gonna do this. In my opinion that is a wrong aproach. And the most important is be sure what audience do you want to reach. How do you expect to reach chinese viewers if they cant even watch twitch or the time zone is terrible for them to watch ? Like i said before foreigner BW tier skill is super low. Who in his right mind gonna wake up at 4 am to watch Madinho vs Gosudark fighting each other for 40 minutes making blunders. Lets be real. ( Nothing personal Madinho. Just an example bro )
im not sure if you compare apples and lemons. If we lool at the BSL final stages, we see close competitions between chinese players and top westerners. (Bony, Dewalt, Sziky) In fact, i see the latter three ahead more often than not against any chinese but Mihu who is a calibre of his own in all fairness. Yes players like Mad, GosuD make blunders in comparison to top chinese and top westeners, but how do they compare against their chinese counterparts? We have a lot more western players in BSL than chinese, ofc the chinese you see are top of the crops.
I agree with your other points tho. im not sure either if it makes sense to focus so much on X $ raised to hold the next event. Especially if it is like 10k, which is hard to reach these days tbh.
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On January 30 2024 10:19 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 01:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Like i said before foreigner BW tier skill is super low. You weren't at the Thailand LAN, but Bonyth and Dewalt beat Sharp multiple times off stream. How can that happen when their skill is super low?
Maybe he didnt try so hard ? And i was talking about the whole scene. Bonyth and Dewalt being good doesnt make the whole scene by magic top tier.
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On January 30 2024 17:42 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 01:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Chinese players make BSL very competitive. I also see it very wrong people saying over and over that chineses are not bringing money or sponsors. If i was ZZZero i will be so happy those high level players were taking part of my tourney so i can show the world a better competition. But well that is me i guess. ZZZero made BSL to crown the best starcraft player outside Korea so im not sure if bringing koreans to the pool changes the vision. But is true that evolution is good so who knows. Also is kinda crazy the job that calvinbobo does to make the life easier to chinese players. Im not exagerating when im saying the guy does a job of a personal manager. Interpret and didnt know he also took care of finances. He is doing all that job at crazy hours. So props to him for real. Idk if the chinese players are paying him but what he does is insane. I been part of the scene for a long time. I used to play tourneys for 10$ When yoda was doing tourneys at defiler.ru These days ZZZero gets more than 7000$ to each BSL season. All of that coming from people willing to donate to the less skilled competition in Starcraft. (Korea, China are better it is what it is.) I kind of miss the days were people actually loved to play the game and make fun tournaments rather than be focused on. If we reach this amount im going to make a tourney. Or if we reach this amount im gonna do this. In my opinion that is a wrong aproach. And the most important is be sure what audience do you want to reach. How do you expect to reach chinese viewers if they cant even watch twitch or the time zone is terrible for them to watch ? Like i said before foreigner BW tier skill is super low. Who in his right mind gonna wake up at 4 am to watch Madinho vs Gosudark fighting each other for 40 minutes making blunders. Lets be real. ( Nothing personal Madinho. Just an example bro ) im not sure if you compare apples and lemons. If we lool at the BSL final stages, we see close competitions between chinese players and top westerners. (Bony, Dewalt, Sziky) In fact, i see the latter three ahead more often than not against any chinese but Mihu who is a calibre of his own in all fairness. Yes players like Mad, GosuD make blunders in comparison to top chinese and top westeners, but how do they compare against their chinese counterparts? We have a lot more western players in BSL than chinese, ofc the chinese you see are top of the crops. I agree with your other points tho. im not sure either if it makes sense to focus so much on X $ raised to hold the next event. Especially if it is like 10k, which is hard to reach these days tbh.
Idk i feel like we are saying the same thing. If you check chinese results in liquipedia Mihu get beaten by many chinese players so overall there is a bigger player base close in skill. By your words only the later stages from BSL are worth looking at then ? Tell me how often did you watch BSL group stages rounds etc ? Is it worth waking up at 4 am in China to watch it ? Is there even a chinese caster covering it ? xd
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On January 30 2024 18:16 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 17:42 Cele wrote:On January 30 2024 01:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Chinese players make BSL very competitive. I also see it very wrong people saying over and over that chineses are not bringing money or sponsors. If i was ZZZero i will be so happy those high level players were taking part of my tourney so i can show the world a better competition. But well that is me i guess. ZZZero made BSL to crown the best starcraft player outside Korea so im not sure if bringing koreans to the pool changes the vision. But is true that evolution is good so who knows. Also is kinda crazy the job that calvinbobo does to make the life easier to chinese players. Im not exagerating when im saying the guy does a job of a personal manager. Interpret and didnt know he also took care of finances. He is doing all that job at crazy hours. So props to him for real. Idk if the chinese players are paying him but what he does is insane. I been part of the scene for a long time. I used to play tourneys for 10$ When yoda was doing tourneys at defiler.ru These days ZZZero gets more than 7000$ to each BSL season. All of that coming from people willing to donate to the less skilled competition in Starcraft. (Korea, China are better it is what it is.) I kind of miss the days were people actually loved to play the game and make fun tournaments rather than be focused on. If we reach this amount im going to make a tourney. Or if we reach this amount im gonna do this. In my opinion that is a wrong aproach. And the most important is be sure what audience do you want to reach. How do you expect to reach chinese viewers if they cant even watch twitch or the time zone is terrible for them to watch ? Like i said before foreigner BW tier skill is super low. Who in his right mind gonna wake up at 4 am to watch Madinho vs Gosudark fighting each other for 40 minutes making blunders. Lets be real. ( Nothing personal Madinho. Just an example bro ) im not sure if you compare apples and lemons. If we lool at the BSL final stages, we see close competitions between chinese players and top westerners. (Bony, Dewalt, Sziky) In fact, i see the latter three ahead more often than not against any chinese but Mihu who is a calibre of his own in all fairness. Yes players like Mad, GosuD make blunders in comparison to top chinese and top westeners, but how do they compare against their chinese counterparts? We have a lot more western players in BSL than chinese, ofc the chinese you see are top of the crops. I agree with your other points tho. im not sure either if it makes sense to focus so much on X $ raised to hold the next event. Especially if it is like 10k, which is hard to reach these days tbh. Idk i feel like we are saying the same thing. If you check chinese results in liquipedia Mihu get beaten by many chinese players so overall there is a bigger player base close in skill. By your words only the later stages from BSL are worth looking at then ? Tell me how often did you watch BSL group stages rounds etc ? Is it worth waking up at 4 am in China to watch it ? Is there even a chinese caster covering it ? xd
yeah i guess we are going in the same direction. I watch nearly all group stage games in BSL and not much chinese events. But by logic: chinese player base is bigger, thus the gaps in skill from each "tier" to the next are bigger within westerners. In fact they are pretty big in BSL if we are honest about it, no offense to any participant. In your initial statement you said " foreigner BW tier skill is super low" which is only wrong because you said it about everybody.
I think it is comparable to China at the very top but not so much on 2nd and 3rd tier.
Agreed?
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Super low compared to Korea and China i still keep it. Just look how good chineses did in ACS recently outperforming korean semipros.(funny enough Mihu didnt do that well in that one ) Just look at it as Football divisions 1 2 and 3. There is not doubt there are good football players in division 3 but overall the lvl is not up to division 1 and 2.
BTW. to be clear im not shitting on Foreign BW. Im just saying that why will chineses tune in at a terrible time zone to watch a division 3 match that is all. So is not crazy at all that BSL is not popular in China even if Mihu win it all the time. People just dont tune in.
Hell i myself will not wake up at 4 am to watch Korea bw either.
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''Super low compared to Korea and China i still keep'' not even close to true: many players can and many times they won against top China players, and some match played around 14:00 cet with 16 low( you are zerg you know what means example in tvz ) I'm also talking about them Gypsy,Oya,Boa there were people who did this while working or at least not earn 40k+++++ dollar /years with significant better opportunity for the practice.
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On January 30 2024 18:56 sas.Sziky wrote:
''Super low compared to Korea and China i still keep'' not even close to true: many players can and many times they won against top China players, and some match played around 14:00 cet with 16 low( you are zerg you know what means example in tvz ) I'm also talking about them Gypsy,Oya,Boa there were people who did this while working or at least not earn 40k+++++ dollar /years with significant better opportunity for the practice.
Super low is poor word choice by me. My bad.
But i have to say i also consider Chinese skill low compared to Korea skill. Honestly i will not claim Chinese skill is way higher than foreigner players but is still high.
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On January 30 2024 18:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Super low compared to Korea and China i still keep it. Just look how good chineses did in ACS recently outperforming korean semipros.(funny enough Mihu didnt do that well in that one ) Just look at it as Football divisions 1 2 and 3. There is not doubt there are good football players in division 3 but overall the lvl is not up to division 1 and 2.
BTW. to be clear im not shitting on Foreign BW. Im just saying that why will chineses tune in at a terrible time zone to watch a division 3 match that is all. So is not crazy at all that BSL is not popular in China even if Mihu win it all the time. People just dont tune in.
Hell i myself will not wake up at 4 am to watch Korea bw either.
Nah this we can not agree upon. Look at the series Dewalt Bony and Sziky played in BSL vs Mihu. Also who is always place 2-4 in BSL? XiaoShuai? QiaoGege? Zhanhun? No, its westerners. Also look at recent show matches Dewalt vs Mihu.
I think you mean by average, but i think it makes no sense to compare it in total, but compare different groups of players. The level in China is higher over all, but at the very top, not by much.
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im not even sure what we arguing anymore. There are way more high level players in China than in our scene. There are atleast 10 players in China close to Dewalt and Bonyth. And Dewalt and bonyth are way ahead of the rest in our scene. So im not sure what we arguing anymore. Im just telling you chineses are not gonna tune in to watch any foreigner tourney or random foreigner videos if they are not playing vs chinese players. Hell i bet very few chineses will watch a bonyth vs dewalt even.
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Look what a foreigner tournament line looks like compared to a chinese tournament talent of players.
foreigner line from last BSL 17
chinese line
i left out other groups since there are chinese players in the mix. and the point is to show the talent pool..
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On January 30 2024 20:08 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
im not even sure what we arguing anymore. There are way more high level players in China than in our scene. There are atleast 10 players in China close to Dewalt and Bonyth. And Dewalt and bonyth are way ahead of the rest in our scene. So im not sure what we arguing anymore. Im just telling you chineses are not gonna tune in to watch any foreigner tourney or random foreigner videos if they are not playing vs chinese players. Hell i bet very few chineses will watch a bonyth vs dewalt even.
i think we mean the same thing basically, you just expressed it more drastic: "super low skill" than i would have. But in general i agree that the talent pool is much deeper. Well, as you said no reason to argue about it.
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