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MaD[AoV]
Norway170 Posts
On January 23 2024 17:22 Rus_Brain wrote: That will be a real challenge to convince Chiense to donate to the laowai online/LAN tournament. I was thinking more towards the 10k goal for BSL 18 in that particular comment, but yes, i see it would be a challenge💰 | ||
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On January 23 2024 17:22 Rus_Brain wrote: That will be a real challenge to convince Chiense to donate to the laowai online/LAN tournament. If Chinese players play in it, and make money from it, Chinese fans should donate | ||
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JXSAZergling
China31 Posts
The time for Chinese audiences to watch is after 2am, and only the finals can be watched once. | ||
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Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1894 Posts
An extreme difficulty is not an impossibility; rather, it correlates with the extent of concessions, commitments, and reservations to be taken by the organizers and the players. Success of Chinese donations may be at hand if time is right; but in the current configuration, it appears to me unlikely. | ||
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chenchuan
37 Posts
They can bring more exciting matches while their commission is very cheap. | ||
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bochs
116 Posts
1. Time zone difference. Prime time in EU maps to midnight ~ early morning hours in Beijing time. Who's going to stay up all night & watch from China? Expecting sponsorship without viewership is just unrealistic; 2. If there were foreign games people do want to watch from China, they'd much rather prefer Korean games. After all, much higher level of skills, no time zone issues, no network latency, closer cultures, etc. 3. Last but not least, the SC scene in China is booming. There's a plethora of games & matches on a daily basis, often with several casters hosting different matches at the same time, competing for viewership. Would people prefer watching players that they are familiar with, commentated in their native language, arguably played at a slightly higher skill level, or would they rather prefer infrequent, over-night BSL games? The answer is obvious. | ||
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kAra
Germany1395 Posts
i guess making it a fight for pride and hosting a "the world" (without korea of course) vs "china" could pull in some viewers from both camps | ||
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ShibaT
Germany11 Posts
On January 25 2024 03:21 kAra wrote: how bad is the ping issue vs china? is ok from eu | ||
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chenchuan
37 Posts
On January 25 2024 03:12 bochs wrote: Getting Chinese sponsorship will be challenging, for the following reasons: 1. Time zone difference. Prime time in EU maps to midnight ~ early morning hours in Beijing time. Who's going to stay up all night & watch from China? Expecting sponsorship without viewership is just unrealistic; 2. If there were foreign games people do want to watch from China, they'd much rather prefer Korean games. After all, much higher level of skills, no time zone issues, no network latency, closer cultures, etc. 3. Last but not least, the SC scene in China is booming. There's a plethora of games & matches on a daily basis, often with several casters hosting different matches at the same time, competing for viewership. Would people prefer watching players that they are familiar with, commentated in their native language, arguably played at a slightly higher skill level, or would they rather prefer infrequent, over-night BSL games? The answer is obvious. 1.Sorry, you can only make concessions on the issue of competition time. 2.The level of Korean players is much higher than ours,So we are more inclined to compete with opponents who are close in level to us. 3.It depends on how much sincerity Mr. Zero has in cooperating with Chinese anchors | ||
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chenchuan
37 Posts
On January 25 2024 03:21 kAra wrote: how bad is the ping issue vs china? i guess making it a fight for pride and hosting a "the world" (without korea of course) vs "china" could pull in some viewers from both camps The delay is approximately 200 milliseconds，Not too bad，Mainly due to the time difference, are you willing to make concessions | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3442 Posts
On January 25 2024 23:03 chenchuan wrote: The delay is approximately 200 milliseconds，Not too bad，Mainly due to the time difference, are you willing to make concessions What concessions would work? Is it just the time? In which case special events could be done at China friendly time vs Europe (wouldn't work with SA/NA). Or would a recast in Chinese at china friendly time be a solution maybe? I doubt chinese viewers would spoil themselves reading foreign bw sites, and liquipedia etc update could be delayed until the recast. It would only be a few hours? Not sure how technically doable that is though. And it would not be quite live. Any other things that would help? Please detail them | ||
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engineNOVA
United States67 Posts
... would a recast in Chinese at china friendly time be a solution maybe? I doubt chinese viewers would spoil themselves reading foreign bw sites, and liquipedia etc update could be delayed until the recast. It would only be a few hours? Not sure how technically doable that is though. And it would not be quite live. Also, this ^ is a good idea in my opinion since Chinese internet is so different from the West's and you could potentially do something called a "simulated live cast" (we do them in marketing all the time with webinar software) where it feels live, the chat is live, but audio and video are recorded. | ||
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iRkSupperman
Norway140 Posts
And yet several years of minimal Chinese financial or viewer interest, for whatever reason. Many possible ones have been mentioned in the thread already. Maybe this time is different, but it's also maybe just not a product which the Chinese scene is very interested in? Speculative reasons: Unknown players for Chinese viewers/language barrier/quality of play/saturated enough domestic+Korean scene? It seems like the Chinese players participating are happy to collect some extra prize pool, sure, but after 2+ years, it doesn't seem like the interest in the event is there from the fans/donators etc. | ||
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chenchuan
37 Posts
On January 25 2024 23:31 WGT-Baal wrote: What concessions would work? Is it just the time? In which case special events could be done at China friendly time vs Europe (wouldn't work with SA/NA). Or would a recast in Chinese at china friendly time be a solution maybe? I doubt chinese viewers would spoil themselves reading foreign bw sites, and liquipedia etc update could be delayed until the recast. It would only be a few hours? Not sure how technically doable that is though. And it would not be quite live. Any other things that would help? Please detail them Let me come up with a simple plan. Organize a competition between China and Europe.If Europe is willing to sponsor $500.We are willing to offer an additional $500. Of course.In order to ensure the smooth progress of this competition, there are still two issues that need to be resolved. These two questions are the time difference and whether Mr. Zero really has the sincerity to cooperate with us. If you are unwilling to choose a time that is friendly to Chinese people.Or rather, Mr. Zero did not have the sincerity to cooperate with us.These two questions will make our discussion meaningless. | ||
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chenchuan
37 Posts
On January 26 2024 08:00 iRkSupperman wrote: Didn't BSL already make concessions to the Chinese scene for several years already (Chinese players have done well and collected a signficiant amount of the prize pool in Seasons 13-17), with only minimal funding in return? Changing the broadcast times, accepting more laggy matches, and in some seasons dedicating Proleague spots specifically to Chinese/Asia region players. And yet several years of minimal Chinese financial or viewer interest, for whatever reason. Many possible ones have been mentioned in the thread already. Maybe this time is different, but it's also maybe just not a product which the Chinese scene is very interested in? Speculative reasons: Unknown players for Chinese viewers/language barrier/quality of play/saturated enough domestic+Korean scene? It seems like the Chinese players participating are happy to collect some extra prize pool, sure, but after 2+ years, it doesn't seem like the interest in the event is there from the fans/donators etc. In fact, BSL's competitions are mostly held in the early morning hours of China.That's why I kept emphasizing that you must make concessions on the game time. We are willing to sponsor the other half of the prize money for BSL.But the premise is that you need to provide us with a suitable time to watch the game. | ||
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Cruiser0929
516 Posts
Before I explain why, let me tell you a few things you need to know. Since I am the most active caster in the Korean scene, I will tell you about the situation in Korea. In the case of Korea, it is probably the scene and country with the most Pro Brood War players. Of course, the biggest "Pro" event in the Korean StarCraft scene would be ASL. The reason I say ASL is a Pro event here is because there are completely different premier events in Korea. Nowadays, there are many female players in Korea, and they are active in forming a kind of crew called “college.” And the “War of the Colleges” content literally brings huge prize money. To put it simply, if you win this "War of the Colleges" content, you'll get at least $16,500 in prize money ($16,500 is the smallest prize money I've seen in any "War of the Colleges" content). Even though the “War of the Colleges” content is an event that lasts only one day, they win such ridiculous amounts of prize money. Even if popular universities use the content, the prize money increases several times more. This is a premier event that has been popular in the Korean scene for several years now and has become the most successful content. Therefore, many Korean professional players are affiliated with universities as teachers, and if they win the "War of the Colleges" they will also receive a large amount of compensation. In addition, when it is not the ASL period, a huge number of contents and tournaments such as Daily Proleagues, UBE, KCM race wars, KCM B Division, SCSL, SCTV Content, etc. are planned and streamed "regularly" without interruption. What I want to say is that in the Korean scene, as you will know by reading this article, there are a huge number of tournaments and content being cast and streamed, and thanks to donations from quite a few viewers, Korean Pro Brood War players can become self-sufficient without having to work part-time or second jobs. It's possible. The same goes for the Chinese scene. A lot of StarCraft content is planned, streamed, and cast. Perhaps more content is being streamed than the Korean scene. If so, I think the Chinese scene has also created a situation where players can fully focus on practice and competition without having to work part-time or have a second job. In the case of the South American scene, the prize pool is much lower than that of the Korean or Chinese scenes, but tournaments and content are still planned and streamed. Of course, Latin players still have to work part-time or two jobs. But at least having regular tournaments would help them financially. Now, let’s look at the European scene. BSL is almost the only regularly organized tournament. The STPL and DPTL tournaments that were still taking place were all suspended. The BWCL is a tournament with a long history and tradition, but unfortunately there is no prize money. I actually created and run a team called StarCastTV Stats. And my team has several foreign players, And including the best foreign players Bonyth and Sziky. However, they are all working part-time or working two jobs. Earnings as a streamer are very minimal. There are no regular tournaments or content. That means, in practice, outside of BSL, the opportunities to win prizes by playing Brood War are even scarcer than in the South American scene. This means that foreign players cannot compete on the same level as Korean and Chinese players in the first place. Koreans and Chinese can devote 100% to their practice. They don't need another job. However, players excluding Korea and China reduce the amount of Brood War practice for their real lives and work part-time or take on second jobs instead of reducing their greed for competitiveness. In this situation, will foreign players, excluding those from China, be able to advance to ASL just because they practice with Korean practice partners? I think it's absolutely impossible. Of course, if there are sponsors like Dewalt who support him, the possibility increases, but in the end, it is not much different from what I have been saying so far. That is, what I want to say is, Currently, the BSL is the largest and only regular foreigner tournament that offers hope to players from Europe, North America and Latin. Even if you don't plan a BSL Korea, There are already a lot of Korean tournaments. such as ASL CMSL CNSL SCSL KCM UBE, etc., and they are already fully saturated. There is already so much content and tournaments in the Korean scene and they hate turn rate issues so much that they refuse to play even at 20 low turn rates. They already play the daily pro league at dawn and go to sleep, and various content monopolizes the prime time schedule before the daily pro league starts. That means that the Korean scene's content is already excessive and it would be wise to use the prize money that will be used for BSL Korea to invest in creating another regular content for the foreign scene. I'll say it again, what the foreign scene needs most is regular tournaments, not one-off content. KCM and KCM B divisions are streamed every week during the ASL period, except for the one-month break. UBE is always streaming except during ASL periods. SCSL is also always streaming except during ASL periods. During the ASL period, players focus on ASL and do not participate in any content other than the Daily Pro League. I'm saying this sincerely. Patreon subscribers who support and donation you do so because they want to see a tournament where foreign players competing in the foreign scene and doing their best to survive in a harsh environment like a wasteland. StarCastTV already casts ASL, SCSL, and SCTV content in English. As you know, SCTV's English casters also have very good cast skills and reputation. Nyoken Eonzerg Scan Diggity etc If your patreon supporters wanted to see BSL Korea, they would have already supported SCTV's patreon. Don’t make the mistake of missing out on their needs. At the very least, if you want the foreign scene to grow and become more competitive, you could organize more regular foreign StarCraft content and tournaments to help the current top foreign players with their financial problems and get them to focus more on their practice. Providing an time to spare where players can play and practice is more helpful in improving the competitiveness of foreign players. | ||
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Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1894 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3442 Posts
On January 26 2024 23:34 chenchuan wrote: Let me come up with a simple plan. Organize a competition between China and Europe.If Europe is willing to sponsor $500.We are willing to offer an additional $500. Of course.In order to ensure the smooth progress of this competition, there are still two issues that need to be resolved. These two questions are the time difference and whether Mr. Zero really has the sincerity to cooperate with us. If you are unwilling to choose a time that is friendly to Chinese people.Or rather, Mr. Zero did not have the sincerity to cooperate with us.These two questions will make our discussion meaningless. I m not with BSL, I was just curious. We have chinese players in bwcl but not many and no grassroot integration. But I think ZZZero has been quite open to and generous with the chinese scene so far, despite essentially 0 benefits to himself financially, I m not sure how else he can show sincerity as you say? On the topic of money for BWCL specifically, we would need massive (unrealistic) amount of money and help to make it worth it. We would need a complete overall of our grid to have it on a proper site, better stream production or supporting our casters financially, and also a clan league by default needs more money since you split it among the players. Typically clans hse around 10ish players a season so even giving out 500 dollars to the winner, which would already be essentially impossible for us, it d be only 50 per player, maybe 45 if the captain also takes some. That s pocket change for a 3 month long event. We also do not want to encourage merc teams. There is a key point you are missing as well for Europe (r Western Europe at least) and NA and it s the base cost of living and the ongoing inflationary crisis. To be able to live off BW, not comfortably at all, you would need at least 2k a month. If you are in a big city this wouldn't even cover rent+utilities. This is just not going to happen for BW, we d need full time corporate sponsorships and why would they even bother? We could have some content creators and a few players/organisers for whom it would work (and that s great already), but we re never going to have the depth needed to actually compete as a region outside a few select individuals | ||
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iRkSupperman
Norway140 Posts
As Rus_Brain said, it's not immediately clear what is being proposed though as criteria for "sincerity about cooperating". Is it supposed to be multiple broadcasts/rebroadcasts at a specific Chinese time, with all the extra work that entails (and minimal existing audience)? Or something ala only broadcasting BSL at ASL~ times, which pretty much alienates two of the existing regions participating in BSL? (NA and SA) | ||
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chenchuan
37 Posts
On January 27 2024 00:46 Rus_Brain wrote: @chenchuan, how would you describe ZZZero's sincerity to pleasing a Chinese viewer and securing a Chinese sponsor in clear and straightforward English in your opinion? Firstly, your current thinking is completely wrong.I can tell you very clearly.It is absolutely impossible for Chinese audiences to watch any content on Twitch. So you must change your mindset.The correct approach should be to obtain funding sponsorship from China.Instead of trying to attract audiences from China. If you want sponsorship from China, you can only collaborate with Chinese anchors.This is currently the only feasible method. | ||
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