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Maps being considered for ASL16
(3)Apocalypse
(2)Champion 2.0
(4)Tempest
(4)Shooting Break
(4)La Campanella
(2)Invader
Maps confirmed for ASL16
(2)Neo Dark Origin
-Sylphid
-Retro
Link: https://910map.tistory.com/category/ASL/ASL 시즌 16Poll: Which map would you like to see in ASL16?(2)Champion 2.0 (22) 43% (3)Apocalypse (3) 6% (4)Tempest (8) 16% (4)La Campanella (7) 14% (2)Invader (11) 22% 51 total votes Your vote: Which map would you like to see in ASL16? (Vote): (2)Champion 2.0
(Vote): (3)Apocalypse
(Vote): (4)Tempest
(Vote): (4)La Campanella
(Vote): (2)Invader
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I like literally all new proposals, holy heck, amazing looking maps.
Neo Dark Origin - nah, why.
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On June 17 2023 16:27 Nirli wrote:
I like literally all new proposals, holy heck, amazing looking maps.
Neo Dark Origin - nah, why.
Same. All of them look pretty neat. Meanwhile, Neo Dark Origin looks like shit. What a shame.
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기존맵중에서는 레트로와 실피드를 고민중에 있으며 = Among the existing maps, I am considering retro and sylphid.
Why choice of maps belongs to just one person? I wonder what race does he play?
(3)Apocalypse has no any creative things compare to any 3 players maps
(2)Champion 2.0 is good for big combat and balance for all matchup. 3rd base is a bit large with one ramp, so far to come. These things favor Terran players, anyway it helps game last long, so fun to watch and very nice to replace Eclipse, Butter.
(4)Tempest is the best unbalanced I've seen ever. Terran can't lose here
(4)Shooting Break has nice idea. It's good for Zerg with 3 gas early from 2 bases. But Terran, Protoss will be happy also, due to they can defend easily at natural. And main base is so hard for Mutas. In short, this is a good map.
(4)La Campanella is very good. I love this map so much. Look at 3rd, 4th base that you will 2 options. One is easy to take but hard to defend. The other one is easy to defend but hard to take. The center base is always a thing which I love. In a competition, if you have something ahead, you should get a advantage from the map.
(2)Invader is Eclipse 2.0, that's it. It will be fun some new games but so boring after that.
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I think on Tempest , in PvT , protoss has no other choice but to go carriers..
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Wait why they replaced Dark Origin with Neo? Old one was perfect, I saw so many epic games not only on ASL, KCM but on streams, especially those narrow paths where you could escape, now they blocked them. Lame...
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I just looked at the maps in-game and La Campanella seems like a bad zerg map. There is a 250 mineral patch at the natural where you can mine to access 3rd base below. However, that would take some time, but terran can just float the CC down and protoss can do the pylon trick to get a probe behind the minerals so they both can get their 3rd base up faster. Zerg would have to research burrow, but even then it would take several tries to get a drone behind the lines.
Also, the 3rd base seems like it would be hard to defend against tanks placed on the high ground so I think terran would have a nice time with this map if the other races took the 3rd base below. The rest seems fairly good, especially shooting break where all 3 races can get a third gas right away.
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On June 17 2023 18:40 Souden wrote:
I just looked at the maps in-game and La Campanella seems like a bad zerg map. There is a 250 mineral patch at the natural where you can mine to access 3rd base below. However, that would take some time, but terran can just float the CC down and protoss can do the pylon trick to get a probe behind the minerals so they both can get their 3rd base up faster. Zerg would have to research burrow, but even then it would take several tries to get a drone behind the lines.
Also, the 3rd base seems like it would be hard to defend against tanks placed on the high ground so I think terran would have a nice time with this map if the other races took the 3rd base below. The rest seems fairly good, especially shooting break where all 3 races can get a third gas right away.
You can just push a drone through
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Cool. The pros are already testing the new maps.
But where is the crazy one this season?
My first impression is that they are not anti Terran as everyone thought.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50609 Posts
lot of lower ground/same ground mains in this pool.
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lol, looks like they're really going all out to prevent Terran getting near the final this season. TvZ on Apocalypse when T spawns on 12 when Z spawns on 4 is going to be ass, Champion and Tempest are gonna be TvP graveyards with those 3rd base positions.
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They’re playing the maps in proleague today
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On June 17 2023 20:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
lol, looks like they're really going all out to prevent Terran getting near the final this season.
I don't think so. Would take something really special to beat the combination of 76 + HBR + Nemesis + Dark Origin.
TvZ on Apocalypse when T spawns on 12 when Z spawns on 4 is going to be ass
Is it that much of a difference compared to Sylphid when T spawns on 12 and Z on 8?
Champion and Tempest are gonna be TvP graveyards with those 3rd base positions.
3rd base on Champion is similar to 3rd on Polypoid, except it's not on high ground but it looks like you can siege from main. 3rd on Tempest is similar to Ascension except the paths are even narrower which can only benefit Terran.
Think about the 3rd on Eclipse, FS, Retro. If it's not harder than those (especially Eclipse) then it's fine.
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On June 17 2023 18:39 outscar wrote:
Wait why they replaced Dark Origin with Neo? Old one was perfect, I saw so many epic games not only on ASL, KCM but on streams, especially those narrow paths where you could escape, now they blocked them. Lame...
Same feelings here. Overcorrection strikes again.
Sad.
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On June 17 2023 21:12 MineraIs wrote:
They’re playing the maps in proleague today
This will make me start watching it again. Thx for the info, bro 
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On June 17 2023 20:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
lol, looks like they're really going all out to prevent Terran getting near the final this season. TvZ on Apocalypse when T spawns on 12 when Z spawns on 4 is going to be ass, Champion and Tempest are gonna be TvP graveyards with those 3rd base positions.
Where did we heard that before, hmm.. :3
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On June 17 2023 18:39 outscar wrote:
Wait why they replaced Dark Origin with Neo? Old one was perfect, I saw so many epic games not only on ASL, KCM but on streams, especially those narrow paths where you could escape, now they blocked them. Lame...
PvZ is under 40% winrate for P in that map, also T is below 50% winrate vs both races, maybe that's why it was changed-
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On June 17 2023 18:40 Souden wrote:
I just looked at the maps in-game and La Campanella seems like a bad zerg map. There is a 250 mineral patch at the natural where you can mine to access 3rd base below. However, that would take some time, but terran can just float the CC down and protoss can do the pylon trick to get a probe behind the minerals so they both can get their 3rd base up faster. Zerg would have to research burrow, but even then it would take several tries to get a drone behind the lines.
Also, the 3rd base seems like it would be hard to defend against tanks placed on the high ground so I think terran would have a nice time with this map if the other races took the 3rd base below. The rest seems fairly good, especially shooting break where all 3 races can get a third gas right away.
Classic forum user feedback, no wonder ASL doesn't let people vote on such things and don't read threads.
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On June 17 2023 21:13 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 20:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
lol, looks like they're really going all out to prevent Terran getting near the final this season. I don't think so. Would take something really special to beat the combination of 76 + HBR + Nemesis + Dark Origin. Is it that much of a difference compared to Sylphid when T spawns on 12 and Z on 8? Show nested quote +Champion and Tempest are gonna be TvP graveyards with those 3rd base positions. 3rd base on Champion is similar to 3rd on Polypoid, except it's not on high ground but it looks like you can siege from main. 3rd on Tempest is similar to Ascension except the paths are even narrower which can only benefit Terran. Think about the 3rd on Eclipse, FS, Retro. If it's not harder than those (especially Eclipse) then it's fine.
76 is only bad TvP, not TvZ. It's 52.7% TvZ (small sample size, but still).
Nemesis is 54.2% PvT, but 57.8% TvZ..
Sylphid is balanced in every matchup except TvZ, which is insanely enough at 60%.
Dark Origin is slightly anti Terran, but certainly playable, at 54.8% PvT and 53.4% ZvT. It's fine.
Heartbreak Ridge is balanced in ZvT at 51.4% ZvT, but with a more significant 58.7% PvT.
The last ASL did not have an anti Terran map pool. It had some balanced maps, some maps with farouable TvZ but also favourable PvT, some slightly anti Terran maps, and some pro Terran maps.
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On June 17 2023 23:32 ZakRoM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 18:39 outscar wrote:
Wait why they replaced Dark Origin with Neo? Old one was perfect, I saw so many epic games not only on ASL, KCM but on streams, especially those narrow paths where you could escape, now they blocked them. Lame... PvZ is under 40% winrate for P in that map, also T is below 50% winrate vs both races, maybe that's why it was changed-
ZvP at 60% is a yikes and should be changed, but some 55ers in any direction are fine.
I don't think anyone is worried about 54.8% PvT and 53.4% ZvT.
55% just means that over 20 games, the stats are 11 - 9. so, every twentieth game, the favoured race gets an extra win.
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Really cool lineup of maps.
Also one general note: the least amount of FS/Vermeer type of maps in the whole set in quite awhile, sign that they're trying to avoid another disaster (a TvT finals).
I think they just kept Dark Origin because it seemed like Protoss was doing good on it against both the two races, which is rare in modern BW for any map.
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Really nice a++ hope to see all of them in ASL
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51525 Posts
Crossing fingers for Champion, mainly because it was featured heavily in the remake map contest.
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this is actually a newer version of Champion, it got pro-tested and updated based on their feedback
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On June 17 2023 16:38 bovienchien wrote:
기존맵중에서는 레트로와 실피드를 고민중에 있으며 = Among the existing maps, I am considering retro and sylphid.
Why choice of maps belongs to just one person? I wonder what race does he play?
I have been wondering the same thing for a few years now. He plays protoss.
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On June 18 2023 17:17 MineraIs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 16:38 bovienchien wrote:
기존맵중에서는 레트로와 실피드를 고민중에 있으며 = Among the existing maps, I am considering retro and sylphid.
Why choice of maps belongs to just one person? I wonder what race does he play?
I have been wondering the same thing for a few years now. He plays protoss.
Wrong. Kang Gu Yeol aka 910 was a Terran player (not a good one though):
 910
I too wonder why he single-handedly decides maps for ASL. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he seeks advices/approval from a board or something, like the trio Korean casters...
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Croatia9529 Posts
On June 17 2023 14:53 MineraIs wrote:
(3)Apocalypse
This should've been a 2-player map, imo.
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51525 Posts
On June 18 2023 17:47 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2023 17:17 MineraIs wrote:On June 17 2023 16:38 bovienchien wrote:
기존맵중에서는 레트로와 실피드를 고민중에 있으며 = Among the existing maps, I am considering retro and sylphid.
Why choice of maps belongs to just one person? I wonder what race does he play?
I have been wondering the same thing for a few years now. He plays protoss. Wrong. Kang Gu Yeol aka 910 was a Terran player (not a good one though): 910I too wonder why he single-handedly decides maps for ASL. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he seeks advices/approval from a board or something, like the trio Korean casters...
because he's the tournament director, but no doubt he has input from production staff etc
also he was an ex-progamer so better than some nobody amateur lol
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On June 18 2023 17:47 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2023 17:17 MineraIs wrote:On June 17 2023 16:38 bovienchien wrote:
기존맵중에서는 레트로와 실피드를 고민중에 있으며 = Among the existing maps, I am considering retro and sylphid.
Why choice of maps belongs to just one person? I wonder what race does he play?
I have been wondering the same thing for a few years now. He plays protoss. Wrong. Kang Gu Yeol aka 910 was a Terran player (not a good one though): 910I too wonder why he single-handedly decides maps for ASL. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he seeks advices/approval from a board or something, like the trio Korean casters...
You say not a good one but he got a progamer license. That makes him at the time better than most of the Terran players in Korea and the rest of the world. Getting a progamer license was super difficult lol
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On June 18 2023 18:22 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2023 17:47 TMNT wrote:On June 18 2023 17:17 MineraIs wrote:On June 17 2023 16:38 bovienchien wrote:
기존맵중에서는 레트로와 실피드를 고민중에 있으며 = Among the existing maps, I am considering retro and sylphid.
Why choice of maps belongs to just one person? I wonder what race does he play?
I have been wondering the same thing for a few years now. He plays protoss. Wrong. Kang Gu Yeol aka 910 was a Terran player (not a good one though): 910I too wonder why he single-handedly decides maps for ASL. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he seeks advices/approval from a board or something, like the trio Korean casters... You say not a good one but he got a progamer license. That makes him at the time better than most of the Terran players in Korea and the rest of the world. Getting a progamer license was super difficult lol
I mean compared to his colleagues obviously. But that's not a dig at him by any means. I just imagine to be in this position, like in other sports, you must be a renown figure from your playing days. Like a Boxer for example, not necessarily as good as him but you know what I mean.
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On June 18 2023 18:56 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2023 18:22 Qikz wrote:On June 18 2023 17:47 TMNT wrote:On June 18 2023 17:17 MineraIs wrote:On June 17 2023 16:38 bovienchien wrote:
기존맵중에서는 레트로와 실피드를 고민중에 있으며 = Among the existing maps, I am considering retro and sylphid.
Why choice of maps belongs to just one person? I wonder what race does he play?
I have been wondering the same thing for a few years now. He plays protoss. Wrong. Kang Gu Yeol aka 910 was a Terran player (not a good one though): 910I too wonder why he single-handedly decides maps for ASL. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he seeks advices/approval from a board or something, like the trio Korean casters... You say not a good one but he got a progamer license. That makes him at the time better than most of the Terran players in Korea and the rest of the world. Getting a progamer license was super difficult lol I mean compared to his colleagues obviously. But that's not a dig at him by any means. I just imagine to be in this position, like in other sports, you must be a renown figure from your playing days. Like a Boxer for example, not necessarily as good as him but you know what I mean.
It may come as a shock, but being the best tournament player does not necessarily make you the best in every facet of the game nor the activities surrounding it, including the creation/interpretation of maps, coaching, strategy development, etc.
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On June 18 2023 18:10 2Pacalypse- wrote:This should've been a 2-player map, imo.
I agree with this on Apocalypse, it feels kinda messy as is (looks like they tried to copy Ascension). Woulda been a nicer map if it was bot left vs bot right, just gotta move expos/overall layout around a bit.
Champion looks by far like the best map to me atm (main factors being design/balance), the other maps still need to be refined imo.
That said a lot of these maps have potential but there's some big design/balance issues, Campanella for example looks interesting but it has big spawn disadvantages. For example if u spawn bot left u have an easy path to drop behind bot right's nat or 3rd base (same for top right vs top left), i also don't think the inbase 3rds should be right behind the highgrounds.
For maps like Campanella the layout is interesting but balance-wise it's very hard to get these maps right as 4p maps, it woulda been much easier to balance as a 2p map (or 3p but that would also be hard most likely, way more do-able tho). Most of the other maps just look way too cramped, a lot of reverse ramps too..
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Champion looks like they tooked the Polypoid/Vermeer/Allegro type of map and turn it into a 2p map. So it's nice. Since Dark Origin is confirmed, they will remove either Champion or Invader. I guess it'll be Invader because Dark Origin is already the weird 2p map and Champion looks more standard.
ASL always has at least four 4p maps and never more than one 3p map, so I dont know why Apocalypse is in contention since Sylphid is already confirmed.
So there we have it already, the official map pool of ASL16:
- Neo Dark Origin (2p)
- Champion (2p)
- Neo Sylphid (3p)
- Retro (4p)
- Tempest (4p)
- La Campanella (4p)
- Shooting Brake (4p)
The good news is they finally ditched Vermeer, the most imbalanced 'standard' map in recent memory and it seems like Retro has taken its position. Retro is virtually 50% for all races now, so it could be the best map of the modern era actually.
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TBH I'd like they surprise me and remove Tempest and replace it with a vintage map or a crazy map (we don't have one this season).
Tempest looks to me like a shit map which only looks aesthetically pleasing but units can't move properly and Tanks can hit you from anywhere and you dont even know where it comes from.
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On June 19 2023 08:48 TMNT wrote:
Champion looks like they tooked the Polypoid/Vermeer/Allegro type of map and turn it into a 2p map. So it's nice. Since Dark Origin is confirmed, they will remove either Champion or Invader. I guess it'll be Invader because Dark Origin is already the weird 2p map and Champion looks more standard.
ASL always has at least four 4p maps and never more than one 3p map, so I dont know why Apocalypse is in contention since Sylphid is already confirmed.
So there we have it already, the official map pool of ASL16:
- Neo Dark Origin (2p)
- Champion (2p)
- Neo Sylphid (3p)
- Retro (4p)
- Tempest (4p)
- La Campanella (4p)
- Shooting Brake (4p)
The good news is they finally ditched Vermeer, the most imbalanced 'standard' map in recent memory and it seems like Retro has taken its position. Retro is virtually 50% for all races now, so it could be the best map of the modern era actually.
Maps haven't been selected, so I wouldn't say there is an official map pool yet.
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On June 19 2023 08:53 TMNT wrote:
TBH I'd like they surprise me and remove Tempest and replace it with a vintage map or a crazy map (we don't have one this season).
Tempest looks to me like a shit map which only looks aesthetically pleasing but units can't move properly and Tanks can hit you from anywhere and you dont even know where it comes from.
ditto i wish the new Rush Hour or Luna got some consideration, they look good
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1063947141711663176/1117654446382518292/image.png)
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1045435626977235040/1119084594113818664/Neo_Luna_4.4.png)
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ASL is for audience, we + 4 strongest players (gosu) in last season should choose map for this league.
Step 1: 910 will pick 15 maps
Step 2: Gosu veto 4 maps
Step 3: Gosu pick 4 maps
Step 4: Audience pick 3 maps
My map pool for ASL 16:
1 old map
1 crazy map
2 semi island/island map
3 standard map
ASL 16 should be PvP in the final!
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i wanna Tau cross back 
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910 was a terran player!
I remember that I saw live the match vs go.go where he lost all the games...
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Germany1774 Posts
On June 19 2023 10:00 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 08:53 TMNT wrote:
TBH I'd like they surprise me and remove Tempest and replace it with a vintage map or a crazy map (we don't have one this season).
Tempest looks to me like a shit map which only looks aesthetically pleasing but units can't move properly and Tanks can hit you from anywhere and you dont even know where it comes from. ditto i wish the new Rush Hour or Luna got some consideration, they look good + Show Spoiler +
This picture of Rush Hour just made me realise something..
+ Show Spoiler +
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Soulkey said the same thing.
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no doubt. The new sylphid is trash. I cant believe they fucked up the map in the last update :/
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On June 19 2023 23:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
no doubt. The new sylphid is trash. I cant believe they fucked up the map in the last update :/
Wym New Sylphid, you probably confused with Neo Dark Origin because Sylphid and Neo Sylphid (which used on ASL14, 15) are almost same maps with minor tweaks on minerals etc.
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On June 20 2023 07:25 outscar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 23:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
no doubt. The new sylphid is trash. I cant believe they fucked up the map in the last update :/ Wym New Sylphid, you probably confused with Neo Dark Origin because Sylphid and Neo Sylphid (which used on ASL14, 15) are almost same maps with minor tweaks on minerals etc.
Before i took a long break from Starcraft the sylphid version i was playing was really good. 12 oclock spot had mineral boosting. Minerals balance was also better. But the most important is that it was a very enjoyable map vs all the races. The new sylphid version added spots where protoss put zealots in gaps that only 1 zergling can attack. I didnt realize at first what was wrong but i read the last update notes and they added all those things i mention early on. I dont really enjoy playing the map anymore.
you can use google translate and see all the changes they have done to the map here.
https://910map.tistory.com/160
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51525 Posts
Translating the part about Neo Sylphid from Jaedong (liberties from my translation style notwithstanding)
It's really old and there's no new strategies coming out for the map now, so it should be removed.
Just looking at the win rates alone, it is an openly difficult map for Zergs and the only way it should be used again is if it is modified once again.
and here's Soulkey's take.
Please remove the map. Some people have already pointed out that the map is disadvantageous to Zerg players and all potential strategies have been exhausted on this map because it has been used for so long.
The map was naturally developed to give an advantage to the other two races. I'm sick and tired of playing on the map over and over as the same games always come out of it.
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On June 20 2023 07:54 GTR wrote:Translating the part about Neo Sylphid from Jaedong (liberties from my translation style notwithstanding) Show nested quote +It's really old and there's no new strategies coming out for the map now, so it should be removed.
Just looking at the win rates alone, it is an openly difficult map for Zergs and the only way it should be used again is if it is modified once again. and here's Soulkey's take. Show nested quote +Please remove the map. Some people have already pointed out that the map is disadvantageous to Zerg players and all potential strategies have been exhausted on this map because it has been used for so long.
The map was naturally developed to give an advantage to Terrans. I'm sick and tired of playing on the map over and over as the same games always come out of it.
Thank you for posting the reasoning behind those two not liking the map while everyone else was just saying they didn't like it. Perhaps there was a translation error in "developed to give an advantage to Terrans" because I don't see that being the case ever, it does have terran advantage not intende through development and perhaps all viable strategies have been tested.
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When maps are played millions of times they get old because there isn't much change strategically.
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He wrote "자연스레 테란토스가 유리하게 만들어졌습니다" which means the map was made with advantages to Terran and Toss. Whether it was made with that intention in mind is kind of up to interpretation though. I can't be sure, Korean is such a subtle language.
I find it funny as Soulkey was pulling no punches here, just like in that Zerg whining video.
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Congrats Minerals on getting the map Champion in ASL! 
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On June 20 2023 07:54 GTR wrote:Translating the part about Neo Sylphid from Jaedong (liberties from my translation style notwithstanding) Show nested quote +It's really old and there's no new strategies coming out for the map now, so it should be removed.
Just looking at the win rates alone, it is an openly difficult map for Zergs and the only way it should be used again is if it is modified once again. and here's Soulkey's take. Show nested quote +Please remove the map. Some people have already pointed out that the map is disadvantageous to Zerg players and all potential strategies have been exhausted on this map because it has been used for so long.
The map was naturally developed to give an advantage to the other two races. I'm sick and tired of playing on the map over and over as the same games always come out of it.
super refreshing to see that best of the best players actually get bored playing the same map for multiple years..
they actually enjoy playing this strategical game! imagine that 
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Brood War would be such a terrible game without constant map rotation to keep the game and meta fresh. Sylphid is a great map but it's stale and needs to go.
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I like Invader and Tempest the most.
I voted for Champion in the map contest, but I actually don't like this newer version as much, though that might just be an aesthetic thing. I know pros gave their opinion on it, and it was updated to reflect that, so I'm not trying to say the original was more balanced or objectively a better map. I'm just a scrub after all.
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On June 21 2023 09:49 Just_a_Moth wrote:
I like Invader and Tempest the most.
I voted for Champion in the map contest, but I actually don't like this newer version as much, though that might just be an aesthetic thing. I know pros gave their opinion on it, and it was updated to reflect that, so I'm not trying to say the original was more balanced or objectively a better map. I'm just a scrub after all.
Lots of balance problems with the original champion when it comes to korean progamers. Sure it would be fine for even top foreigners but the skill gap and abuse is immense.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
really liking the last 3 maps that are being considered!
edit: actually i like all the new maps
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EPT![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FbCX2XK%2FbtskizuMvc2%2FnoL2GMAkRztPrkamwiaihk%2Fimg.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FlvMcu%2FbtskgIsd8P6%2FQtGlkiMGIYPKitR5gSSCR0%2Fimg.png)
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