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On July 20 2021 00:44 Kare wrote:
Who cares? It's not like the game has been a real esport for a long time anyway, the progamers are just using the game as an income source by playing against each other on stream. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that the game has not been popular for 8ish years.
Yeh. Who cares if Sidney Crosby stop playing hockey or Roger Federer stop tennis? I am no expert but I would guess that some fans would care.
Does the sport have to be “big” for someone to care? Let me ask you, just how “big” must it be to be considered real? Is chess a real sport? Is pedal canoeing a real sport? It is about the price money or how many people there is in the audience?
If you really like this game you don’t care about any of that stuff. My suggestion is that you stop being a jerk and bugger of to some LOL forum where you can feel safe about it being real.
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I'm going to play BW until I die. Doesn't mean I need to do that daily, but I won't give up challenging myself to reach new rank and at the same time enjoy it, no other game makes you feel that speial feeling that you accomplished something. At this point if pros decide to retire I don't judge them, they already gave half of their lives and I'm sure none of them regret that. ACS is going on, maybe we can see some fresh blood.
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On July 20 2021 03:50 ...onmYwaY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 00:44 Kare wrote:
Who cares? It's not like the game has been a real esport for a long time anyway, the progamers are just using the game as an income source by playing against each other on stream. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that the game has not been popular for 8ish years. Yeh. Who cares if Sidney Crosby stop playing hockey or Roger Federer stop tennis? I am no expert but I would guess that some fans would care. Does the sport have to be “big” for someone to care? Let me ask you, just how “big” must it be to be considered real? Is chess a real sport? Is pedal canoeing a real sport? It is about the price money or how many people there is in the audience? If you really like this game you don’t care about any of that stuff. My suggestion is that you stop being a jerk and bugger of to some LOL forum where you can feel safe about it being real.
Hockey and Tennis is huge, so not sure what you are talking about there. As someone who watched every match back in 2007 etc, todays BW situation is less than satisfying to say it lightly. I still play some games here and there because I like the game, probably way more than you, but that doesn't mean I care about some koreans stopping playing.
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On July 20 2021 04:47 Kare wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 03:50 ...onmYwaY wrote:On July 20 2021 00:44 Kare wrote:
Who cares? It's not like the game has been a real esport for a long time anyway, the progamers are just using the game as an income source by playing against each other on stream. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that the game has not been popular for 8ish years. Yeh. Who cares if Sidney Crosby stop playing hockey or Roger Federer stop tennis? I am no expert but I would guess that some fans would care. Does the sport have to be “big” for someone to care? Let me ask you, just how “big” must it be to be considered real? Is chess a real sport? Is pedal canoeing a real sport? It is about the price money or how many people there is in the audience? If you really like this game you don’t care about any of that stuff. My suggestion is that you stop being a jerk and bugger of to some LOL forum where you can feel safe about it being real. Hockey and Tennis is huge, so not sure what you are talking about there. As someone who watched every match back in 2007 etc, todays BW situation is less than satisfying to say it lightly. I still play some games here and there because I like the game, probably way more than you, but that doesn't mean I care about some koreans stopping playing.
Damn it! I was just going to write “in before stating hockey and tennis are big!” Ah, well... big or huge - you answered the question, kind of. You think that there has to be X amount of people watching and X amount of price on the line for it to be considered a “real sport”.
Please let me remind you that BW never had the level of following as the modern games outside Korea. Never. There used to be one major tournament a year (WCG). There were nothing close to TSL or BSL that we have today. The player base has always been small in comparison to even contemporary games like CS.
So... in with your logic BW was never an “e-sport”?
However, if we speak about the situation in Korea is a different matter altogether. So mind me that there probably a lot of Korean fans in despair when players such as Flash or Bisu retire.
In my opinion BW is to this very day the one of the most competitive e-sports out there and the skill it requires is second to none. That is enough to be considered as an “e-sport” to me.
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On July 20 2021 00:44 Kare wrote:
Who cares?
read the thread
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Sad but understandable, they've been playing for a very long time now. There's still enough old players in ASL so I'll keep watching but it's not looking great. It's like tennis - the new players just aren't exciting to watch. Once the big players stop playing, there's no appeal to keep watching (for me anyway).
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On July 20 2021 09:50 Freezard wrote:
Sad but understandable, they've been playing for a very long time now. There's still enough old players in ASL so I'll keep watching but it's not looking great. It's like tennis - the new players just aren't exciting to watch. Once the big players stop playing, there's no appeal to keep watching (for me anyway).
I don't get this attitude. I mean, the last finals was one of the best and neither Mini nor Larva were really big old school players.
Up and coming players like Rush and Soma are great to watch—far more so than the modern Bisu, say.
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On July 16 2021 01:14 staatbauhaus wrote:
I think it was Hiya who mentioned if he had an opportunity to work an office job he would do it instantly.
A lot of these pros are approaching mid to late 30's with absolutely no financial stability.
Streaming is only a real job to 1% of the streaming population.
Also, 1000 mmr streamers who play 5 melee games a day making 5-20x more $$$ has got to really feel like a kick in the nuts lol.
Yea what is up with these random Koreans getting 10k+ on twitch while hero gets 50 and queen gets 100?
Are they popular from something else and just happen to be streaming bw?
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On July 20 2021 04:47 Kare wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 03:50 ...onmYwaY wrote:On July 20 2021 00:44 Kare wrote:
Who cares? It's not like the game has been a real esport for a long time anyway, the progamers are just using the game as an income source by playing against each other on stream. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that the game has not been popular for 8ish years. Yeh. Who cares if Sidney Crosby stop playing hockey or Roger Federer stop tennis? I am no expert but I would guess that some fans would care. Does the sport have to be “big” for someone to care? Let me ask you, just how “big” must it be to be considered real? Is chess a real sport? Is pedal canoeing a real sport? It is about the price money or how many people there is in the audience? If you really like this game you don’t care about any of that stuff. My suggestion is that you stop being a jerk and bugger of to some LOL forum where you can feel safe about it being real. Hockey and Tennis is huge, so not sure what you are talking about there. As someone who watched every match back in 2007 etc, todays BW situation is less than satisfying to say it lightly. I still play some games here and there because I like the game, probably way more than you, but that doesn't mean I care about some koreans stopping playing.
It has fallen off the last few months but BW was literally peaking (as far as the last 10 years go) not long ago with the Flash R ASL and Queen's team win in ASTL.
These guys don't need huge followings to make relatively good money because their fans are older and have money.
Plus, we will always have Artosis
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Maybe he means BW as an esport is not "real" at some higher level of ontological abstraction. I watched ASL 8 live in a stadium at full capacity with tons more people standing behind the seats, and hundreds of thousands more watching live online, but I guess you could say that from some frames of reference, that experience doesn't exist as a thing. I mean how do you demarcate what physical entities comprise Brood War as a esport? It's a mess when you think about it.
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In any "sport" there are far more casuals than "real-fans", this has been proven time and time again in any kind of professional sport. Advertisement agencies and tv networks live and die by this principle when it comes to things they choose to invest in.
The NBA is what is what it is today for this generation because of the star power of LeBron and Steph Curry. Not because the Top50-100 players in the league are so entertaining that the average Joe is so thrilled by any random game in the league that he can't stop talking about it.
At an astronomically smaller scale, so it is for video games too, especially one like BW where the most popular players have remained those that enjoyed success at it' popularity peak.
So BW being 'real' or not was just another popularity contest. It's the same everywhere, it's been this way since the dawn of time, and it will remain that way as long as there are human eyeballs watching it.
What won't go away is the fact that BW at its competitive peak is as amazing to watch now as it was 12 years ago.
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broodwar will live on forever. sad to see a pro scene like Koreas go though
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 20 2021 14:03 LpTraxamillion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 04:47 Kare wrote:On July 20 2021 03:50 ...onmYwaY wrote:On July 20 2021 00:44 Kare wrote:
Who cares? It's not like the game has been a real esport for a long time anyway, the progamers are just using the game as an income source by playing against each other on stream. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that the game has not been popular for 8ish years. Yeh. Who cares if Sidney Crosby stop playing hockey or Roger Federer stop tennis? I am no expert but I would guess that some fans would care. Does the sport have to be “big” for someone to care? Let me ask you, just how “big” must it be to be considered real? Is chess a real sport? Is pedal canoeing a real sport? It is about the price money or how many people there is in the audience? If you really like this game you don’t care about any of that stuff. My suggestion is that you stop being a jerk and bugger of to some LOL forum where you can feel safe about it being real. Hockey and Tennis is huge, so not sure what you are talking about there. As someone who watched every match back in 2007 etc, todays BW situation is less than satisfying to say it lightly. I still play some games here and there because I like the game, probably way more than you, but that doesn't mean I care about some koreans stopping playing. It has fallen off the last few months but BW was literally peaking (as far as the last 10 years go) not long ago with the Flash R ASL and Queen's team win in ASTL. These guys don't need huge followings to make relatively good money because their fans are older and have money. Plus, we will always have Artosis
I think in his mind, you have to have teams, proleague and constant leagues in order for it to be a "real" esports which is absolutely silly and preposterous. The fact that BW still has a large following after everything that happened is just further proof that this is the best esports of all time. It's nice that he got to experience BW in 2007, and it's understandable why someone would think the current scene pales in comparison, but BW in this era has been nothing short of fantastic and spectacular.
The amount of popularity that SSL had when it was being broadcasted on OGN again in 2014/15 took even OGN by surprise. Think about that for a second. It was hype as hell and then ASL took the momentum and kept building it up before we even got RM released. The climax imo was ASL6 where we saw Flash vs EffOrt, the rematch. Even after Flash took a break, ASL7 was still great with Nada playing and we hit another peak with Flash playing random while Zergs took home 3 straight ASLs which was crazy to think about just several years ago.
The fact of the matter is that BW will always be around and it's important for the community and viewers who love BW to keep tabs on their favourite players so his question of "Who cares" is so misplaced considering where he posted it lol.
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StarCraft is the first and longest running real e-sport. Modern games come and go but broodwar will never die.
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Yeha.... and I really don’t like it when people try to romanticize the old KESPA days. Players were locked up by sponsors who payed them next to nothing and the audience got a few games a week during an active season.
For the audience there was perhaps some romanization of the mysterious pro gamer hidden behind the curtain just to pop up and make a magic trick happen before being shoved off.
I would guess that close to all players who experienced that world is very happy where things are now. And we as audience should too as we get so much more content, more than we can chew.
And never try to romanticize the foreign scene of old. It was not better than now, trust me. Go and compare WCG where commentators before tasteless didn’t even know the names of the units.
Perhaps we have been over exposed for a while and need some time to digest but I think Korea will always keep BW going to some extent. Leave it be for 2-3 months and people will queue for the next ASL.
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On July 21 2021 09:23 ...onmYwaY wrote:
Yeha.... and I really don’t like it when people try to romanticize the old KESPA days.
were you in Korea at that time?
it was special.
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On July 21 2021 09:23 ...onmYwaY wrote:
Yeha.... and I really don’t like it when people try to romanticize the old KESPA days. Players were locked up by sponsors who payed them next to nothing and the audience got a few games a week during an active season.
For the audience there was perhaps some romanization of the mysterious pro gamer hidden behind the curtain just to pop up and make a magic trick happen before being shoved off.
I would guess that close to all players who experienced that world is very happy where things are now. And we as audience should too as we get so much more content, more than we can chew.
And never try to romanticize the foreign scene of old. It was not better than now, trust me. Go and compare WCG where commentators before tasteless didn’t even know the names of the units.
Perhaps we have been over exposed for a while and need some time to digest but I think Korea will always keep BW going to some extent. Leave it be for 2-3 months and people will queue for the next ASL.
Locked up? That is some serious hyperbole. They were bound to contracts, Just like any real sport. It was no different than being signed to a team in the nba where you were bound by contract only play basketball professionally in the official nba leagues, because it was completely understandable. Players at least got paid a wage they could live off of. Kespa legitimized starcraft as a sport. If it weren't for Kespa, the korean starcraft scene would have never grown as big as it had. Kespa even handled contract negotiations. Kespa was even responsible for making starcraft mainstream on tv through mbcgame and ongamenet. If it weren't for kespa, players like boxer, nada etc etc would have never gotten the big salaries that they did. If it weren't for Kespa, sc1 in korea would have been completely wildwest just like the sc2 scene when it came to teams and players getting paid. If we pretend for a second that a governing body like Kespa wasn't a good thing, then the sc1 scene would have stagnated and fallen off just like the sc2 scene did. Why? Because Kespa brought real structure to the scene. They implemented real qualifications for being a progamer. They created an actual process. If it weren't for Kespa, absolutely nobody in the sc1 or sc2 playerbase would have been inspired to become a pro gamer. Kespa was the main reason sc1 was as successful as it was as an esport and I think it's important to recognize that.
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Larva is the last person I would imagine quitting due to wrist injuries because he can play with his feet just fine..
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On July 21 2021 16:21 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2021 09:23 ...onmYwaY wrote:
Yeha.... and I really don’t like it when people try to romanticize the old KESPA days. Players were locked up by sponsors who payed them next to nothing and the audience got a few games a week during an active season.
For the audience there was perhaps some romanization of the mysterious pro gamer hidden behind the curtain just to pop up and make a magic trick happen before being shoved off.
I would guess that close to all players who experienced that world is very happy where things are now. And we as audience should too as we get so much more content, more than we can chew.
And never try to romanticize the foreign scene of old. It was not better than now, trust me. Go and compare WCG where commentators before tasteless didn’t even know the names of the units.
Perhaps we have been over exposed for a while and need some time to digest but I think Korea will always keep BW going to some extent. Leave it be for 2-3 months and people will queue for the next ASL. Locked up? That is some serious hyperbole. They were bound to contracts, Just like any real sport. It was no different than being signed to a team in the nba where you were bound by contract only play basketball professionally in the official nba leagues, because it was completely understandable. Players at least got paid a wage they could live off of. Kespa legitimized starcraft as a sport. If it weren't for Kespa, the korean starcraft scene would have never grown as big as it had. Kespa even handled contract negotiations. Kespa was even responsible for making starcraft mainstream on tv through mbcgame and ongamenet. If it weren't for kespa, players like boxer, nada etc etc would have never gotten the big salaries that they did. If it weren't for Kespa, sc1 in korea would have been completely wildwest just like the sc2 scene when it came to teams and players getting paid. If we pretend for a second that a governing body like Kespa wasn't a good thing, then the sc1 scene would have stagnated and fallen off just like the sc2 scene did. Why? Because Kespa brought real structure to the scene. They implemented real qualifications for being a progamer. They created an actual process. If it weren't for Kespa, absolutely nobody in the sc1 or sc2 playerbase would have been inspired to become a pro gamer. Kespa was the main reason sc1 was as successful as it was as an esport and I think it's important to recognize that.
This is what I mean. I never said that KeSPA was not good for the scene from a marketing or packaging point of view. They did a real good job to romanticize the scene. They made Boxer, Nada etc. as shining examples of what could be if you were on top of the game. Truth is that 99% of the rest struggled for years. They saw money to be made from youth who sacrificed everything to play the game. It is what it is, and kudos to all the players that made it though, but anyone can admit that it was a pretty hard time, that probably broke a lot of people.
Yeh... they did get contracts signed. Contrats that would break you, and me and most of the people here within months. Don't even try to compare it to an NBA contract where you can go home to your family every day - instead of sitting in a crammed apartment with 20 others in front of a screen 12 hours a day. There is nothing romantic about that.
I think that the scene is more healthy today, and I think the players are better off than before during the KeSPA era. Sure, we don’t get massive production with screaming fans and huge SKT and KTF banners. Money goes to the players instead who in turn gives us 1000 hours of streaming content.
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I can say that I value the streaming world more than the kespa days. The old days were more about results and the spectacle with strict rules than it was about supporting and connecting with self-determined players.
We also get to see a lot more games and interactions than we used to. The open rivalry between Flash and Larva for example would've been completely impossible during the kespa days. Back then that would've taken place behind closed doors.
It also allows for the streamers to have important experiences earlier in life because they have to control their finances themselves, they can choose during which hours they want to play, and they can more easily take days off if they need to. This helps build confidence and character and it seems a lot more relaxed.
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EPT
