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When CatZ tweeted that this was going to happen Hydra himself offered to help CatZ defeat the Tasteless menace:
CatZ is no slouch so it should be interesting.
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Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.
Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless
Heart vs Mind LEGGO
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On June 06 2020 06:20 GGzerG wrote:
Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.
Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless
Heart vs Mind LEGGO
CatZ is also a Grandmaster-level SC2 player, so I give the mechanical edge to CatZ and the game knowledge edge to Tasteless. Personally I think it's going to be a much closer match than some people think.
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On June 05 2020 05:09 Hot_Bid wrote:
catz could be good but 80% of the time i watched his stream he had a hatchery building in the opponents base
i think tasteless is a huge favorite but catz could learn to cheese, it's zvp after all and you can drop games to anyone that can execute a proper runby or hydra rush lmao
Catz gonna be watching every Shine replay ever for his own bag of builds.
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On June 06 2020 06:25 Chris_Havoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:20 GGzerG wrote:
Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.
Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless
Heart vs Mind LEGGO CatZ is also a Grandmaster-level SC2 player, so I give the mechanical edge to CatZ and the game knowledge edge to Tasteless. Personally I think it's going to be a much closer match than some people think.
I'm only asking this because I have no idea: if BW had a top 200 ranking for NA, would a B level player be there or close to there? I'm actually thinking MAYBE since I don't imagine there being that many active S / A / B level BW players in NA. I could be completely off though.
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On June 06 2020 06:44 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:25 Chris_Havoc wrote:On June 06 2020 06:20 GGzerG wrote:
Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.
Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless
Heart vs Mind LEGGO CatZ is also a Grandmaster-level SC2 player, so I give the mechanical edge to CatZ and the game knowledge edge to Tasteless. Personally I think it's going to be a much closer match than some people think. I'm only asking this because I have no idea: if BW had a top 200 ranking for NA, would a B level player be there or close to there? I'm actually thinking MAYBE since I don't imagine there being that many active S / A / B level BW players in NA. I could be completely off though.
Yeah B rank should be safely in the top 200 NA.
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On June 06 2020 06:25 Chris_Havoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:20 GGzerG wrote:
Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.
Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless
Heart vs Mind LEGGO CatZ is also a Grandmaster-level SC2 player, so I give the mechanical edge to CatZ and the game knowledge edge to Tasteless. Personally I think it's going to be a much closer match than some people think.
I wish he would showcase that game knowledge in the games he casts.
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On June 06 2020 08:31 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:25 Chris_Havoc wrote:On June 06 2020 06:20 GGzerG wrote:
Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.
Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless
Heart vs Mind LEGGO CatZ is also a Grandmaster-level SC2 player, so I give the mechanical edge to CatZ and the game knowledge edge to Tasteless. Personally I think it's going to be a much closer match than some people think. I wish he would showcase that game knowledge in the games he casts.
That is not his job.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51072 Posts
oh man hydra playing would be dope.
On June 06 2020 14:43 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 08:31 razorsuKe wrote:On June 06 2020 06:25 Chris_Havoc wrote:On June 06 2020 06:20 GGzerG wrote:
Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.
Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless
Heart vs Mind LEGGO CatZ is also a Grandmaster-level SC2 player, so I give the mechanical edge to CatZ and the game knowledge edge to Tasteless. Personally I think it's going to be a much closer match than some people think. I wish he would showcase that game knowledge in the games he casts. That is not his job.
imagine play-by-play being an acquired taste lol.
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man we need Day9 and Artosis to cast this! hahaha
Seeing as it is Tasteless, Day9 might do it.
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On June 04 2020 23:33 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:On June 04 2020 15:57 kogeT wrote:
Lol Tasteless will stomp him. From what I have seen CatZ is very very begginer (1500 lvl?) while Tasteless is around 1900 on KR server..? What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder? EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17. Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing. - A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other. ...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR. -Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always. -If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea... It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want. Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second...  Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this. From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences. The funny part is that being European you get matched vs foreginers up to like 2200, and afterwards there are so few players that you are getting matched vs koreans. So from 2200 onwards a real European challenge begins. 
Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder
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On June 07 2020 00:33 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 23:33 kogeT wrote:On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:On June 04 2020 15:57 kogeT wrote:
Lol Tasteless will stomp him. From what I have seen CatZ is very very begginer (1500 lvl?) while Tasteless is around 1900 on KR server..? What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder? EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17. Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing. - A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other. ...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR. -Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always. -If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea... It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want. Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second... Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this. From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences. The funny part is that being European you get matched vs foreginers up to like 2200, and afterwards there are so few players that you are getting matched vs koreans. So from 2200 onwards a real European challenge begins. Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder
The other way to see it is that they are getting games more consistently because they are more likely to tap into a richer player pool.
It also comes down to WHEN you play. In NYC area, I catch everyone from Koreans to South Americans to Europeans, depending on the time of day (apparently).
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Norway28805 Posts
On June 07 2020 00:33 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 23:33 kogeT wrote:On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:On June 04 2020 15:57 kogeT wrote:
Lol Tasteless will stomp him. From what I have seen CatZ is very very begginer (1500 lvl?) while Tasteless is around 1900 on KR server..? What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder? EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17. Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing. - A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other. ...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR. -Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always. -If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea... It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want. Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second... Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this. From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences. The funny part is that being European you get matched vs foreginers up to like 2200, and afterwards there are so few players that you are getting matched vs koreans. So from 2200 onwards a real European challenge begins. Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder
Some players have made this hypothesis but it's not like american players in general perform better in tournaments than they do in ladder, and if you look at the BSL ranks, there's no real indication that american players have lower mmr than european players of similar skill. Koreans also tend to play kinda bullshitty when they have laggy games - so even though a 2100 korean player is better than a 2100 european player, I have just as good of a chance at getting points facing a 2100 korean player as a 2100 european player, because the korean player is more likely to a) leave the game or b) 5pool/proxy gate/bbs. I mean, maybe there's like a 30 mmr difference or whatever, but it's really negligible.
There aren't that many players who have played from both regions, but Cadenzie doesn't seem to have a harder time reaching S on korea than on EU, I don't have the impression Nyoken does better at NA than korea either.
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On June 07 2020 08:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 00:33 blabber wrote:On June 04 2020 23:33 kogeT wrote:On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:On June 04 2020 15:57 kogeT wrote:
Lol Tasteless will stomp him. From what I have seen CatZ is very very begginer (1500 lvl?) while Tasteless is around 1900 on KR server..? What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder? EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17. Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing. - A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other. ...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR. -Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always. -If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea... It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want. Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second... Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this. From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences. The funny part is that being European you get matched vs foreginers up to like 2200, and afterwards there are so few players that you are getting matched vs koreans. So from 2200 onwards a real European challenge begins. Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder Some players have made this hypothesis but it's not like american players in general perform better in tournaments than they do in ladder, and if you look at the BSL ranks, there's no real indication that american players have lower mmr than european players of similar skill. Koreans also tend to play kinda bullshitty when they have laggy games - so even though a 2100 korean player is better than a 2100 european player, I have just as good of a chance at getting points facing a 2100 korean player as a 2100 european player, because the korean player is more likely to a) leave the game or b) 5pool/proxy gate/bbs. I mean, maybe there's like a 30 mmr difference or whatever, but it's really negligible. There aren't that many players who have played from both regions, but Cadenzie doesn't seem to have a harder time reaching S on korea than on EU, I don't have the impression Nyoken does better at NA than korea either.
An interesting follow-up point (IMO) would be that this is liekly to be* a depreciating effect vs. MMR. In other words, a 1600 MMR Korean is stronger than a 1600 MMR NA/EU player simply because all three of them can more reliably play against people local to them. After a certain MMR, you are either playing Koreans or other people in your region that are playing Koreans, with exceptions being some combination of location and internet (I feel like I recall a Nordic user stating this, actually - not ITW) where I've heard complaints that people at even 1800 or 1900 MMR have 15 minutes queues and only match with the same player every time for example.
Long story short, I feel like after a certain point (2000 MMR? 2100 MMR?) the difference in location is secondary to time of playing is secondary to internet connection (within reason) in terms of skill vs. MMR, whereas for a 1500 player in the middle of nowhere we can be MORE certain that they will lose vs. a 1500 player from Korea, for example.
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Damn this is hype i hope i can finish up work next thursday in time to watch
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Katowice25012 Posts
On June 07 2020 10:31 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 08:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 07 2020 00:33 blabber wrote:On June 04 2020 23:33 kogeT wrote:On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:On June 04 2020 15:57 kogeT wrote:
Lol Tasteless will stomp him. From what I have seen CatZ is very very begginer (1500 lvl?) while Tasteless is around 1900 on KR server..? What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder? EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17. Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing. - A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other. ...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR. -Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always. -If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea... It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want. Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second... Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this. From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences. The funny part is that being European you get matched vs foreginers up to like 2200, and afterwards there are so few players that you are getting matched vs koreans. So from 2200 onwards a real European challenge begins. Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder Some players have made this hypothesis but it's not like american players in general perform better in tournaments than they do in ladder, and if you look at the BSL ranks, there's no real indication that american players have lower mmr than european players of similar skill. Koreans also tend to play kinda bullshitty when they have laggy games - so even though a 2100 korean player is better than a 2100 european player, I have just as good of a chance at getting points facing a 2100 korean player as a 2100 european player, because the korean player is more likely to a) leave the game or b) 5pool/proxy gate/bbs. I mean, maybe there's like a 30 mmr difference or whatever, but it's really negligible. There aren't that many players who have played from both regions, but Cadenzie doesn't seem to have a harder time reaching S on korea than on EU, I don't have the impression Nyoken does better at NA than korea either. An interesting follow-up point (IMO) would be that this is liekly to be* a depreciating effect vs. MMR. In other words, a 1600 MMR Korean is stronger than a 1600 MMR NA/EU player simply because all three of them can more reliably play against people local to them. After a certain MMR, you are either playing Koreans or other people in your region that are playing Koreans, with exceptions being some combination of location and internet (I feel like I recall a Nordic user stating this, actually - not ITW) where I've heard complaints that people at even 1800 or 1900 MMR have 15 minutes queues and only match with the same player every time for example. Long story short, I feel like after a certain point (2000 MMR? 2100 MMR?) the difference in location is secondary to time of playing is secondary to internet connection (within reason) in terms of skill vs. MMR, whereas for a 1500 player in the middle of nowhere we can be MORE certain that they will lose vs. a 1500 player from Korea, for example.
My general impression on this kind of stuff is that it's commonly accepted knowledge on a forum because it seems like it should be true (B rank in KR stronger than B rank in NA) but usually the evidence to support it is pretty weak. I suspect this is the case where it's maybe more true on at lower ranks but you reach a point probably quicker than we tend to assume, where it's effectively the same.
The discussion is super fun to have though so maybe it's for the best we can argue it forever.
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On June 07 2020 11:45 Heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 10:31 Jealous wrote:On June 07 2020 08:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 07 2020 00:33 blabber wrote:On June 04 2020 23:33 kogeT wrote:On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:On June 04 2020 15:57 kogeT wrote:
Lol Tasteless will stomp him. From what I have seen CatZ is very very begginer (1500 lvl?) while Tasteless is around 1900 on KR server..? What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder? EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17. Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing. - A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other. ...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR. -Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always. -If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea... It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want. Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second... Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this. From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences. The funny part is that being European you get matched vs foreginers up to like 2200, and afterwards there are so few players that you are getting matched vs koreans. So from 2200 onwards a real European challenge begins. Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder Some players have made this hypothesis but it's not like american players in general perform better in tournaments than they do in ladder, and if you look at the BSL ranks, there's no real indication that american players have lower mmr than european players of similar skill. Koreans also tend to play kinda bullshitty when they have laggy games - so even though a 2100 korean player is better than a 2100 european player, I have just as good of a chance at getting points facing a 2100 korean player as a 2100 european player, because the korean player is more likely to a) leave the game or b) 5pool/proxy gate/bbs. I mean, maybe there's like a 30 mmr difference or whatever, but it's really negligible. There aren't that many players who have played from both regions, but Cadenzie doesn't seem to have a harder time reaching S on korea than on EU, I don't have the impression Nyoken does better at NA than korea either. An interesting follow-up point (IMO) would be that this is liekly to be* a depreciating effect vs. MMR. In other words, a 1600 MMR Korean is stronger than a 1600 MMR NA/EU player simply because all three of them can more reliably play against people local to them. After a certain MMR, you are either playing Koreans or other people in your region that are playing Koreans, with exceptions being some combination of location and internet (I feel like I recall a Nordic user stating this, actually - not ITW) where I've heard complaints that people at even 1800 or 1900 MMR have 15 minutes queues and only match with the same player every time for example. Long story short, I feel like after a certain point (2000 MMR? 2100 MMR?) the difference in location is secondary to time of playing is secondary to internet connection (within reason) in terms of skill vs. MMR, whereas for a 1500 player in the middle of nowhere we can be MORE certain that they will lose vs. a 1500 player from Korea, for example. My general impression on this kind of stuff is that it's commonly accepted knowledge on a forum because it seems like it should be true (B rank in KR stronger than B rank in NA) but usually the evidence to support it is pretty weak. I suspect this is the case where it's maybe more true on at lower ranks but you reach a point probably quicker than we tend to assume, where it's effectively the same. The discussion is super fun to have though so maybe it's for the best we can argue it forever.
I mean, I got 1900 on NA immediately, then queued from Beijing next season and got like 1600. I was a bit rusty, so I grinded and grinded up to 1700, and then eventually 1800
the difference is very large
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On June 07 2020 08:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 00:33 blabber wrote:On June 04 2020 23:33 kogeT wrote:On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:On June 04 2020 15:57 kogeT wrote:
Lol Tasteless will stomp him. From what I have seen CatZ is very very begginer (1500 lvl?) while Tasteless is around 1900 on KR server..? What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder? EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17. Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing. - A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other. ...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR. -Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always. -If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea... It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want. Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second... Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this. From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences. The funny part is that being European you get matched vs foreginers up to like 2200, and afterwards there are so few players that you are getting matched vs koreans. So from 2200 onwards a real European challenge begins. Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder Some players have made this hypothesis but it's not like american players in general perform better in tournaments than they do in ladder, and if you look at the BSL ranks, there's no real indication that american players have lower mmr than european players of similar skill. Koreans also tend to play kinda bullshitty when they have laggy games - so even though a 2100 korean player is better than a 2100 european player, I have just as good of a chance at getting points facing a 2100 korean player as a 2100 european player, because the korean player is more likely to a) leave the game or b) 5pool/proxy gate/bbs. I mean, maybe there's like a 30 mmr difference or whatever, but it's really negligible. There aren't that many players who have played from both regions, but Cadenzie doesn't seem to have a harder time reaching S on korea than on EU, I don't have the impression Nyoken does better at NA than korea either.
You think this because your latency to KR is not good, so it lags, and they don't want to play you. Likely, you shouldn't be pairing KR anyways if you can't maintain TR 16 Low, but there are obviously instances where you'll sneak by. For NA players, this isn't really the case. Mostly, when I play KR at 2100+ it's regular games, and it is way different than playing a 2100 European, that's for sure. If that's your perspective, it makes sense, but that doesn't change the fact for how it is in NA. Your experience doesn't change what happens in NA. NA pairs TR 16 low or better with KR, it's typically smooth. So hopefully you can understand why experiences would vastly differ... to be clear, I am not rejecting your experience. I understand why you feel this way, but don't reject the NA experience either.
Also you mention Nyoken, but that's not actually true. When Nyoken was laddering from US, he had MUCH higher win rate and also 2250+ easily. But of course, using some specific examples here and there is not a good argument. Of course some top players can perform well regardless. Not to mention, the argument can be made that someone who moves to KR and grinds many games would have improved too, so you are forgetting that learning curve and adaptation of a very strong player. The poiint is, you can't just pick a few outliers and make a point for it. I'm talking majority here; outlier arguments can be used for anything...
Lastly, you mention a point regarding correlation of ladder play to tournament play. This is not a good talking point to the context. We're talking just ladder, and as you know, a player of your skill, ladder and tournament play is much different. For instance, I would say I'm a pretty good ladder player, but am not as strong in tournaments. Lot of factors go into tournaments like experience, preparation, nervousness, etc. So you can't use that as an argument to talk about if ladder is more difficult or not, that's not logical. It's comparing apples and oranges.
Before NA was getting paired to KR often, I was getting 2300+ with 80% win rates. Now? 2200+ with like 50-60% win rate, and sometimes getting knocked below 2100 if I pair some KR monsters who are 1900 and I lose -40 lol, which does happen more often than you'd imagine.
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Russian Federation249 Posts
On June 08 2020 21:38 iopq wrote:
I mean, I got 1900 on NA immediately, then queued from Beijing next season and got like 1600. I was a bit rusty, so I grinded and grinded up to 1700, and then eventually 1800
the difference is very large
Please tell us more about it. Did you play closed Chinese ladder? If yes, then difference is understandable. They have larger player pool then any foreign country and probably even Korea. Meanwhile they only play each other and MMR numbers can not be compared to global ladder.
If you played global ladder, you probably had to experience extreme lag and no wonder your MMR dropped.
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EPT
