Tasteless Vs CatZ

On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:

What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder?

EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17.

On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:

What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder?

EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17.

On June 04 2020 17:02 Dante08 wrote:


A 1900 rating on KR server is MUCH better than a 1900 rating on other servers as you will mostly get matched with Koreans who are generally on a higher level.

On June 04 2020 18:01 GGzerG wrote:
Ok I didn't know it was only per latency, then I wonder why I play 90%++ all Korean players living in SoCal

On June 04 2020 16:19 GGzerG wrote:

What does the Server have to do with anything though? Aren't we still on Global ladder?

EDIT : This will be really fun, I saw CatZ post about it on Twitter, whoever wins it will still be fun because of the Nostalgia factor of these two playing again, back in their hay day they were both in X17.

On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:


Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing.

-A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other.
...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR.

-Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always.

-If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea...

It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want.

Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second...

Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this.

From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences.

On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:


Still surprised people don't know this. Yes, it's global but it's based on latency pairing.

-A majority of Europe don't pair to Koreans due to the natural latency lacking the ability to achieve TR16. Ever notice people like Bonyth rarely pair KR? This isn't a call out, just a fact, for a popular streamer, so that people can visualize it. EU are typically playing against each other.
...[Please note I am using words like 'majority,' 'rarely,' and 'typically' -- before some random EU comes in here saying "WELL I PAIR KR SOMETIMES!!"]. Of course there are outliers and some in EU who probably have good latency to KR.

-Americans pair to Koreans often because we have the ability to get TR16 more readily. Typically in US, you don't need to wait long between games. I queue within 1minute or less always.

-If you live in Korea, well, you get the idea...

It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want.

Did you really think that some Europeans or LATAM players are just magically getting 2200+ so easily, with 70%+ win rates? Not an attack on anyone, but just think about it for a second...

Do I think someone like Bonyth or Eonzerg can still get 2400+ regardless of who they play on ladder? Yes. But not everyone is Bonyth or Eonzerg. And they probably won't have 80% win ratios playing Koreans non-stop, and that alone is a big difference even for top players like this.

From my own personal perspective, it is day and night playing against 2200-2300 foreigner vs. 2200-2300 Korean. Especially the Terrans. I'd say the gap is actually quite substantial, from my own experiences.

On June 04 2020 20:59 SuGo wrote:

It's a global ladder, sure, but with the parameter of "IF" you can achieve certain latency to other regions, including Korea. This makes NA ladder harder than EU ladder, and makes KR ladder harder than both and gives MMR ranges a bit of disparity from region to region. NA MMR is different than EU MMR and so on. NA ladder is second hardest due to these things. It's hard to say "+150 MMR harder" or something like this when comparing regions, but it is undoubtedly harder. Take it for what you want.

On June 05 2020 04:03 LG)Sabbath wrote:

Mostly accurate but you are adding a bit to the misconception here. Saying NA or EU ladder is not accurate, for example I am in SA but rarely get matched with many other SA players so there are separate regions even in the same continent and country. I get matched with a good amount of koreans, and never with europeans. On the other hand there is also the timezone issue, where if you play at a certain time always, you will be part of a MMR range that is different than if you played at a different time.

All in all the MMR regions are unpredictable and vary wildly which is why sometimes you'll watch a strong player stream and they might play a terrible 2300 player and sometimes a good 1900 player.

Blizzard is not helping this entire issue by putting regions in the launcher, I often run into koreans that start whining that I am "on the korean server" and that I should just leave their server, which is of course impossible for me to do.

On June 04 2020 16:51 kogeT wrote:


You are matched based on latency. That is why Europeans rearly get matched vs Koreans, but if you live in Korea you play exclusively vs Koreans (so overall difficulty lvl for your MMR will be a bit higher)

On June 05 2020 08:54 Jonoman92 wrote:
I seem to recall knowing CatZ as a pretty good sc2 player (and more recently he was streaming dota2 a bit). Was he into bw before that?

On June 06 2020 06:20 GGzerG wrote:
Right, CatZ is a master of preparation / build order execution, and he's no stranger to BW.

Heart = CatZ
Mind = Tasteless

Heart vs Mind LEGGO

On June 06 2020 06:25 Chris_Havoc wrote:


CatZ is also a Grandmaster-level SC2 player, so I give the mechanical edge to CatZ and the game knowledge edge to Tasteless. Personally I think it's going to be a much closer match than some people think.

On June 07 2020 00:33 blabber wrote:

Sorry for being off topic, but just had a thought, doesnt this make things like the BSL ladder stage favor Europeans? If those in NA are constantly playing against Koreans, I would imagine it's harder to climb ladder

On June 07 2020 11:45 Heyoka wrote:


My general impression on this kind of stuff is that it's commonly accepted knowledge on a forum because it seems like it should be true (B rank in KR stronger than B rank in NA) but usually the evidence to support it is pretty weak. I suspect this is the case where it's maybe more true on at lower ranks but you reach a point probably quicker than we tend to assume, where it's effectively the same.

The discussion is super fun to have though so maybe it's for the best we can argue it forever.

On June 07 2020 08:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:


Some players have made this hypothesis but it's not like american players in general perform better in tournaments than they do in ladder, and if you look at the BSL ranks, there's no real indication that american players have lower mmr than european players of similar skill. Koreans also tend to play kinda bullshitty when they have laggy games - so even though a 2100 korean player is better than a 2100 european player, I have just as good of a chance at getting points facing a 2100 korean player as a 2100 european player, because the korean player is more likely to a) leave the game or b) 5pool/proxy gate/bbs. I mean, maybe there's like a 30 mmr difference or whatever, but it's really negligible.

There aren't that many players who have played from both regions, but Cadenzie doesn't seem to have a harder time reaching S on korea than on EU, I don't have the impression Nyoken does better at NA than korea either.

On June 08 2020 21:38 iopq wrote:

I mean, I got 1900 on NA immediately, then queued from Beijing next season and got like 1600. I was a bit rusty, so I grinded and grinded up to 1700, and then eventually 1800

the difference is very large

On June 08 2020 22:26 SuGo wrote:



You think this because your latency to KR is not good, so it lags, and they don't want to play you. Likely, you shouldn't be pairing KR anyways if you can't maintain TR 16 Low, but there are obviously instances where you'll sneak by. For NA players, this isn't really the case. Mostly, when I play KR at 2100+ it's regular games, and it is way different than playing a 2100 European, that's for sure. If that's your perspective, it makes sense, but that doesn't change the fact for how it is in NA. Your experience doesn't change what happens in NA. NA pairs TR 16 low or better with KR, it's typically smooth. So hopefully you can understand why experiences would vastly differ... to be clear, I am not rejecting your experience. I understand why you feel this way, but don't reject the NA experience either.

Also you mention Nyoken, but that's not actually true. When Nyoken was laddering from US, he had MUCH higher win rate and also 2250+ easily. But of course, using some specific examples here and there is not a good argument. Of course some top players can perform well regardless. Not to mention, the argument can be made that someone who moves to KR and grinds many games would have improved too, so you are forgetting that learning curve and adaptation of a very strong player. The poiint is, you can't just pick a few outliers and make a point for it. I'm talking majority here; outlier arguments can be used for anything...

Lastly, you mention a point regarding correlation of ladder play to tournament play. This is not a good talking point to the context. We're talking just ladder, and as you know, a player of your skill, ladder and tournament play is much different. For instance, I would say I'm a pretty good ladder player, but am not as strong in tournaments. Lot of factors go into tournaments like experience, preparation, nervousness, etc. So you can't use that as an argument to talk about if ladder is more difficult or not, that's not logical. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Before NA was getting paired to KR often, I was getting 2300+ with 80% win rates. Now? 2200+ with like 50-60% win rate, and sometimes getting knocked below 2100 if I pair some KR monsters who are 1900 and I lose -40 lol, which does happen more often than you'd imagine.

On June 10 2020 05:55 FlaShFTW wrote:

I love catz's banter. Also god I cannot watch that carbot skin lol I have no idea what's going on.

On June 11 2020 15:37 Ty2 wrote:
Legit the best bo7 I've seen in a while.+ Show Spoiler +

On June 12 2020 13:24 ROOTCatZ wrote:
Uploaded the showmatch to Youtube, all edited to avoid dead time between the games and mixing in Tasteless POV / camera as well. Hope you guys like it, thanks everyone for the kind comments.

oops, here's the link lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDE0toQQZAQ