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On May 13 2020 08:04 LML wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2020 07:47 tec27 wrote:On May 13 2020 06:55 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 06:46 GGzerG wrote:
Blizzard please. -_- what do you expect them to do? You can't create an unhackable game (or program in general). You can damn well do a better job than Blizzard has, lol. This isn't a case like maphacking, where it is hard to fully prevent because you can't verify any of the software you're running on top of hasn't been modified. It's a simple case where the game allows commands to execute that are absolutely not possible: users cannot select nukes through the normal UI and issue commands to them. Yet the game doesn't properly filter out such commands, due to bad programming. To make matters worse, Blizzard even tried to fix this issue in previous patches and just did a bad job of it, so there are still simple ways to perform such actions. If I hack the game to simply increase my mineral count, if I try to spend those non-existent minerals, every other client in the game will disconnect me because I've de-synced from the commonly accepted game state. If I issue impossible commands to a nuke? They accept it and execute them. See how imminently fixable that is? Those are called edge cases. Now this game's engine was released in 1998. What do you think it is they envisioned to happen? For BW to live for 20+ years and someone giving commands to a nuke? Idk if you ever read about their scrambling at the end of development (like how path finding was basically created in a matter of days), but that definitely makes me doubt they have ever added an extensive testing framework and put in the time to think of all the weird shit that may happen. Minerals hacks were a thing even in 1.16. Without some anti-cheat client you couldn't trust people to use some form of cheat since forever. At this state it's the usual cat and mouse game. The hackers find a new thing, Blizzard has to fix it. But with SCR not getting a lot of resources it's sadly a slow process. It's to all our predicament, but the player base and continued profitability is probably too small for them to assign more resources to it.
Is it hard to write software free of bugs? Yes. Is it especially hard to do that in an engine plagued with hacky choices because of the amount of crunch the developers were under? Sure. Is it incredibly hard to maintain those fixes without a reasonable set of tests in place? Absolutely.
But no one is arguing about whether that is hard, you're the one here making excuses for Blizzard. They've had 22 years to fix this shit. This exact kind of bug has been known about and exploited in popular hacks since at least patch 1.15, which was released 13 years ago. Why should they be afforded any kind of understanding about this? It's completely absurd to argue that this is due to the "cat and mouse" nature of preventing hacks, when this exploit has been known and the fix is extremely obvious. Not only have they not fixed it, they came along and forced the community to pay for the game again during that time period, lest they receive a worse experience than they previously had, and forced the community to pay them for permission to run big events. Is that something that is somehow deserving of praise?
Anti-cheats didn't fix the mineral hacks of earlier versions, patching the game to not allow those invalid commands did. Any anti-cheat applied to BW (including the current one) is a joke that has been easily bypassed. The fact that hackers haven't plagued the competitive scene forever has been because the big hack developers weren't interested in hacking them, not because the anti-hacks were good or sufficient.
Given that Blizzard understood they were going to be maintaining and making changes to a 22 year old game going into their Remastered project, it's totally on them for not setting up proper testing infrastructure to make those changes safely. It's totally on them for not looking at what hacks and exploits existed previously and were still exploitable. It's totally on them for not actively seeking out exploits for things that hackers haven't yet discovered or abused. Fuck giving them a pass for shit like this. They absolutely have not done anything to earn that kind of good will.
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INMO its simple, each replay should be uploaded into Blizzard after every game, if someone reports bad behavior this replays should get sent into a severs that checks for exploits or just weird things going on (outside of normal game parameters), for example, now that this has been discovered the replays should get scanned and found, because this theoretical server already knows how to search for weird stuff like this.
Now i believe that this action should only be activated when a trust worthy account reports a game, so a "report" button should be added at the End Screen, and if you are a player that is trolling using that button without sense you should lose the option to report at all.
Otherwise improvement in the antihack "real time" system is needed, that is a more complicated endevour really, but its needed.
People should get banned for doing this for sure, though not for using this in custom games... even if 1v1 or melee, but using it in RANK should be punishable for at least a 30 day ban.
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I think they flat out reject looking into any of the more technical stuff under the pretext of "preserving the original gameplay". It does not only apply to engine code but also applies to data files (faulty AI scripts, faulty terrain flags…)
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The entertainment factor of the replay was great but the fact that he's #5 on ladder is a giant yikes... If he's that high on the ladder he should get banned with the quickness but that obviously hasn't happened yet
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
imagine maphacking AND infinite nuke hacking AND still losing
lmao these hackers are pathetic
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On May 13 2020 12:10 konadora wrote:
imagine maphacking AND infinite nuke hacking AND still losing
lmao these hackers are pathetic
Yea that is pretty bad lol
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This is so funny - Ghosts chilling to the side and launching nukes from far away.
But then the better player won anyways, hahaha
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hahaha thanks for the subs!
Scan is such a legend, winning despite the nukes like a boss
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do you actually control the nukes directly with this exploit, the ghost being redundant after the initial launch. like if the cheater even had a modicum of mechanics/multitasking he can easily beat even expros. not that difficult to maintain production of units/economy on the side while relaunching nukes to reset opponent economy constantly to 0.
also thread is funny for someone trying to lecture the creator of shieldbattery on hacks. classic internet takes.
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On May 13 2020 12:55 ggsimida wrote:
do you actually control the nukes directly with this exploit, the ghost being redundant after the initial launch. like if the cheater even had a modicum of mechanics/multitasking he can easily beat even expros. not that difficult to maintain production of units/economy on the side while relaunching nukes to reset opponent economy constantly to 0.
also thread is funny for someone trying to lecture the creator of shieldbattery on hacks. classic internet takes.
Fbh speculated you need ghost alive for the exploit, as when scans drop killed the ghosts, he was not able to nuke apparently
Scan is just awesome
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On May 13 2020 10:16 tec27 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2020 08:04 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 07:47 tec27 wrote:On May 13 2020 06:55 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 06:46 GGzerG wrote:
Blizzard please. -_- what do you expect them to do? You can't create an unhackable game (or program in general). You can damn well do a better job than Blizzard has, lol. This isn't a case like maphacking, where it is hard to fully prevent because you can't verify any of the software you're running on top of hasn't been modified. It's a simple case where the game allows commands to execute that are absolutely not possible: users cannot select nukes through the normal UI and issue commands to them. Yet the game doesn't properly filter out such commands, due to bad programming. To make matters worse, Blizzard even tried to fix this issue in previous patches and just did a bad job of it, so there are still simple ways to perform such actions. If I hack the game to simply increase my mineral count, if I try to spend those non-existent minerals, every other client in the game will disconnect me because I've de-synced from the commonly accepted game state. If I issue impossible commands to a nuke? They accept it and execute them. See how imminently fixable that is? Those are called edge cases. Now this game's engine was released in 1998. What do you think it is they envisioned to happen? For BW to live for 20+ years and someone giving commands to a nuke? Idk if you ever read about their scrambling at the end of development (like how path finding was basically created in a matter of days), but that definitely makes me doubt they have ever added an extensive testing framework and put in the time to think of all the weird shit that may happen. Minerals hacks were a thing even in 1.16. Without some anti-cheat client you couldn't trust people to use some form of cheat since forever. At this state it's the usual cat and mouse game. The hackers find a new thing, Blizzard has to fix it. But with SCR not getting a lot of resources it's sadly a slow process. It's to all our predicament, but the player base and continued profitability is probably too small for them to assign more resources to it. Is it hard to write software free of bugs? Yes. Is it especially hard to do that in an engine plagued with hacky choices because of the amount of crunch the developers were under? Sure. Is it incredibly hard to maintain those fixes without a reasonable set of tests in place? Absolutely. But no one is arguing about whether that is hard, you're the one here making excuses for Blizzard. They've had 22 years to fix this shit. This exact kind of bug has been known about and exploited in popular hacks since at least patch 1.15, which was released 13 years ago. Why should they be afforded any kind of understanding about this? It's completely absurd to argue that this is due to the "cat and mouse" nature of preventing hacks, when this exploit has been known and the fix is extremely obvious. Not only have they not fixed it, they came along and forced the community to pay for the game again during that time period, lest they receive a worse experience than they previously had, and forced the community to pay them for permission to run big events. Is that something that is somehow deserving of praise?
But Diablo 2 has similar problems, map hack and bots are all the rage there and blizzard has been completely unable to stop them for 20 years, since year 2000 map hack has been around and its still working fine.
So with these old games the problem being them being easy to hack is not easy to solve, with out a ton of reworking of the code which there is no resources for
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On May 13 2020 08:04 LML wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2020 07:47 tec27 wrote:On May 13 2020 06:55 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 06:46 GGzerG wrote:
Blizzard please. -_- what do you expect them to do? You can't create an unhackable game (or program in general). You can damn well do a better job than Blizzard has, lol. This isn't a case like maphacking, where it is hard to fully prevent because you can't verify any of the software you're running on top of hasn't been modified. It's a simple case where the game allows commands to execute that are absolutely not possible: users cannot select nukes through the normal UI and issue commands to them. Yet the game doesn't properly filter out such commands, due to bad programming. To make matters worse, Blizzard even tried to fix this issue in previous patches and just did a bad job of it, so there are still simple ways to perform such actions. If I hack the game to simply increase my mineral count, if I try to spend those non-existent minerals, every other client in the game will disconnect me because I've de-synced from the commonly accepted game state. If I issue impossible commands to a nuke? They accept it and execute them. See how imminently fixable that is? Those are called edge cases. Now this game's engine was released in 1998. What do you think it is they envisioned to happen? For BW to live for 20+ years and someone giving commands to a nuke? Idk if you ever read about their scrambling at the end of development (like how path finding was basically created in a matter of days), but that definitely makes me doubt they have ever added an extensive testing framework and put in the time to think of all the weird shit that may happen. Minerals hacks were a thing even in 1.16. Without some anti-cheat client you couldn't trust people to use some form of cheat since forever. At this state it's the usual cat and mouse game. The hackers find a new thing, Blizzard has to fix it. But with SCR not getting a lot of resources it's sadly a slow process. It's to all our predicament, but the player base and continued profitability is probably too small for them to assign more resources to it.
This game engine was not developed 20+ years ago, that was the original engine. They re-created the engine for remastered. For me it was unplayable during the release.
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I remember flying drones in 1998 bnet on LT. Fly your drone to the top left island.
This game was always buggy and exploitable
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On May 13 2020 19:16 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2020 08:04 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 07:47 tec27 wrote:On May 13 2020 06:55 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 06:46 GGzerG wrote:
Blizzard please. -_- what do you expect them to do? You can't create an unhackable game (or program in general). You can damn well do a better job than Blizzard has, lol. This isn't a case like maphacking, where it is hard to fully prevent because you can't verify any of the software you're running on top of hasn't been modified. It's a simple case where the game allows commands to execute that are absolutely not possible: users cannot select nukes through the normal UI and issue commands to them. Yet the game doesn't properly filter out such commands, due to bad programming. To make matters worse, Blizzard even tried to fix this issue in previous patches and just did a bad job of it, so there are still simple ways to perform such actions. If I hack the game to simply increase my mineral count, if I try to spend those non-existent minerals, every other client in the game will disconnect me because I've de-synced from the commonly accepted game state. If I issue impossible commands to a nuke? They accept it and execute them. See how imminently fixable that is? Those are called edge cases. Now this game's engine was released in 1998. What do you think it is they envisioned to happen? For BW to live for 20+ years and someone giving commands to a nuke? Idk if you ever read about their scrambling at the end of development (like how path finding was basically created in a matter of days), but that definitely makes me doubt they have ever added an extensive testing framework and put in the time to think of all the weird shit that may happen. Minerals hacks were a thing even in 1.16. Without some anti-cheat client you couldn't trust people to use some form of cheat since forever. At this state it's the usual cat and mouse game. The hackers find a new thing, Blizzard has to fix it. But with SCR not getting a lot of resources it's sadly a slow process. It's to all our predicament, but the player base and continued profitability is probably too small for them to assign more resources to it. This game engine was not developed 20+ years ago, that was the original engine. They re-created the engine for remastered. For me it was unplayable during the release.
I don't they even touched any of the core code. They just put another graphics renderer on top…
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On May 13 2020 19:16 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2020 08:04 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 07:47 tec27 wrote:On May 13 2020 06:55 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 06:46 GGzerG wrote:
Blizzard please. -_- what do you expect them to do? You can't create an unhackable game (or program in general). You can damn well do a better job than Blizzard has, lol. This isn't a case like maphacking, where it is hard to fully prevent because you can't verify any of the software you're running on top of hasn't been modified. It's a simple case where the game allows commands to execute that are absolutely not possible: users cannot select nukes through the normal UI and issue commands to them. Yet the game doesn't properly filter out such commands, due to bad programming. To make matters worse, Blizzard even tried to fix this issue in previous patches and just did a bad job of it, so there are still simple ways to perform such actions. If I hack the game to simply increase my mineral count, if I try to spend those non-existent minerals, every other client in the game will disconnect me because I've de-synced from the commonly accepted game state. If I issue impossible commands to a nuke? They accept it and execute them. See how imminently fixable that is? Those are called edge cases. Now this game's engine was released in 1998. What do you think it is they envisioned to happen? For BW to live for 20+ years and someone giving commands to a nuke? Idk if you ever read about their scrambling at the end of development (like how path finding was basically created in a matter of days), but that definitely makes me doubt they have ever added an extensive testing framework and put in the time to think of all the weird shit that may happen. Minerals hacks were a thing even in 1.16. Without some anti-cheat client you couldn't trust people to use some form of cheat since forever. At this state it's the usual cat and mouse game. The hackers find a new thing, Blizzard has to fix it. But with SCR not getting a lot of resources it's sadly a slow process. It's to all our predicament, but the player base and continued profitability is probably too small for them to assign more resources to it. This game engine was not developed 20+ years ago, that was the original engine. They re-created the engine for remastered. For me it was unplayable during the release.
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/520464-an-interview-with-the-devs-of-starcraft-remastered
[..] The game is still built around the original graphics and gameplay engine; [..]
[..] We’re still using the original gameplay engine. [..]
Just imagine having to recreate the BW engine, with all of its quirks and bugs.
@tec27
From a technical standpoint I agree with you. But from a business decision view point of allocating resources to BW, I can totally see why Blizzard hasn't put anything into keeping BW free of these exploits being out there in the past 13 years. Sad as it is for us.
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i lost it at:
Scan: Piece of shit
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On May 13 2020 15:31 att wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2020 10:16 tec27 wrote:On May 13 2020 08:04 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 07:47 tec27 wrote:On May 13 2020 06:55 LML wrote:On May 13 2020 06:46 GGzerG wrote:
Blizzard please. -_- what do you expect them to do? You can't create an unhackable game (or program in general). You can damn well do a better job than Blizzard has, lol. This isn't a case like maphacking, where it is hard to fully prevent because you can't verify any of the software you're running on top of hasn't been modified. It's a simple case where the game allows commands to execute that are absolutely not possible: users cannot select nukes through the normal UI and issue commands to them. Yet the game doesn't properly filter out such commands, due to bad programming. To make matters worse, Blizzard even tried to fix this issue in previous patches and just did a bad job of it, so there are still simple ways to perform such actions. If I hack the game to simply increase my mineral count, if I try to spend those non-existent minerals, every other client in the game will disconnect me because I've de-synced from the commonly accepted game state. If I issue impossible commands to a nuke? They accept it and execute them. See how imminently fixable that is? Those are called edge cases. Now this game's engine was released in 1998. What do you think it is they envisioned to happen? For BW to live for 20+ years and someone giving commands to a nuke? Idk if you ever read about their scrambling at the end of development (like how path finding was basically created in a matter of days), but that definitely makes me doubt they have ever added an extensive testing framework and put in the time to think of all the weird shit that may happen. Minerals hacks were a thing even in 1.16. Without some anti-cheat client you couldn't trust people to use some form of cheat since forever. At this state it's the usual cat and mouse game. The hackers find a new thing, Blizzard has to fix it. But with SCR not getting a lot of resources it's sadly a slow process. It's to all our predicament, but the player base and continued profitability is probably too small for them to assign more resources to it. Is it hard to write software free of bugs? Yes. Is it especially hard to do that in an engine plagued with hacky choices because of the amount of crunch the developers were under? Sure. Is it incredibly hard to maintain those fixes without a reasonable set of tests in place? Absolutely. But no one is arguing about whether that is hard, you're the one here making excuses for Blizzard. They've had 22 years to fix this shit. This exact kind of bug has been known about and exploited in popular hacks since at least patch 1.15, which was released 13 years ago. Why should they be afforded any kind of understanding about this? It's completely absurd to argue that this is due to the "cat and mouse" nature of preventing hacks, when this exploit has been known and the fix is extremely obvious. Not only have they not fixed it, they came along and forced the community to pay for the game again during that time period, lest they receive a worse experience than they previously had, and forced the community to pay them for permission to run big events. Is that something that is somehow deserving of praise? But Diablo 2 has similar problems, map hack and bots are all the rage there and blizzard has been completely unable to stop them for 20 years, since year 2000 map hack has been around and its still working fine. So with these old games the problem being them being easy to hack is not easy to solve, with out a ton of reworking of the code which there is no resources for
Again, maphacks are not at all the same class of exploit, and I don't know why people keep bringing them up like they're relevant. They are, indeed, basically unpreventable without significant changes to the engine structure, and it makes sense that they wouldn't want to invest the time or take the risk to do so. The nuke sort of exploit is one in which they failed to prevent actions that are not orderable via the UI from being executed anyway. It is imminently preventable, and, ideally, they would adjust the game to fix every single class of this bug instead of fixing them one-off every time (especially since they consistently fail to properly fix even the one-off cases, as is the case with this one). This is not hard.
Blizzard is a multi-billion dollar company that made conscious decisions to further monopolize their control over this game, we do not need to lavish them with this "at least they tried" bullshit.
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On May 14 2020 05:51 tec27 wrote:
Blizzard is a multi-billion dollar company that made conscious decisions to further monopolize their control over this game, we do not need to lavish them with this "at least they tried" bullshit.
Thank you for stating the truth.
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Time to revive shieldbattery, SCR's been out for like 2-3 years now and it hasn't progressed much in the past year. The game is still filled with bugs/exploits and we have no 2v2 ladder, among other issues..
They constantly have to work on fixing bugs/exploits and everything else just gets delayed. It's impossible to get ahead, we're always playing catch up.
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EPT
