EPTPatch 1.23.2 - Page 9
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
I feel like prominent community figures like Artosis, Rapid, etc. need to stop covering for the development team: it's not okay to say that things are okay, when they are not, because that's lying. I understand it's a different culture and that they are casters, and regularly do it during casts "hyping" things up (and I know I'm not the only annoyed by this), but things have gotten way out of hand. The "new bug" that they have discovered during the casting the finals of one of the two premiere Starcraft leagues is over 2 years old. Seriously, it's a huge fucking fiasco, guys, and there has been so many fiascos, and yet, so little consequences. Can we all just stop pretending and saying things are okay? They are not okay. We have a mature and hard-spirited community here, and we need to make use of it. We need community oversight over Matt and Grant because they are not making the right choices at all. Remember starlog.gg? They killed it for what reason again? Just because they will, in a couple of years, implement something that even though is not nearly as good, will be done by them? They are doing color change patches and spending this much time fixing bugs an insignificant change caused? It's like painting the fingernails of a severed hand, instead of trying to re-attach it... And once you realize you can't paint the fingernails, because it makes the legs fall of, you don't start putting the legs back on, you roll back and work on issues that actually matter... I understand quick and easy improvements are nice low hanging fruits you can give to the community... But if it becomes clear that it is in fact not an easy-to-implement thing, for god's sake, just roll back, and actually work on things that matter... We have SO MANY enthusiastic people. Noone is on PTR? Well for gods sake, just coordinate with us so that we have a bunch of people hopping on PTR at a pre-determined time... We organize tournies, and we have streams with over 100 viewers... Surely we would be able to get like 10-30 people to test things for an hour or two if you made a thread on TL and posted in Discord... And god help you, maybe on naver too or whatever the koreans are using? There is a bunch of ladder abuse going on, that was dealt with swiftly and effectively (compared to now) on Fish and Iccup. Why the fudge don't you rely on the help of community admins? Like seriously, name one legitimate reason? We have had developers 2pac, tec, mca, and many others with a much better understanding of the game and the community. Why aren't you hiring them as consultants? Like seriously, I'm pretty sure that they would work for you FREE of charge just for having a chance to help you with this clusterfuck of a messup that has been going on for 2 years, if you let them, and offer public acknowledgment of the work they put in for Blizzard entertainment. I'm sure they'd be happy to have "Consultant for Blizz. ent." on their CV, and it would be a win-win-win situation for everyone... I'm sorry for the harsh tone of this message, but we need to stop pussy-footing around and acknowledge what needs to be acknowledged -- not for the sake of personal validation, but because we very obviously need to start working out the steps to get things to a working state as a community. We're mostly all a bunch of adults here with limited free time -- we want to keep as many people active as we can, draw in as many new people as we can, and remastered is doing the opposite of this sometimes, alienating people with its bugginess, lack of features, etc. We need to figure this out, and the sooner the community takes a more active hand in this, the better. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1162 Posts
On December 08 2019 21:31 fazek42 wrote: I feel like a big first step would be to issue a public apology and accept the fact that they have failed as developers. I don't think it matters much that they have personally and obviously been trying their hardest -- Grant, Matt, etc. have been in-touch with the community, reaching out, trying to do the right thing on every occasion -- but it's been two years, and teased-before-release features are missing, development of features we have had for 10+ years are still missing, and this is not acceptable. I think the lack of team match making alone would be grounds for a class-action lawsuit, not that I'm advocating for it, but I think it's baffling that as a pretty hard-spirited community we're sitting here, seeing all the problems, being frustrated with it, and then just letting two guys (? Matt and Grant) wrestle with this mammoth of a task that they are obviously incapable of handling, while we just sit here with our hands behind our backs, and just complaining. Feel like two years has been more than enough grace period and it should be about time the community took action again. I feel like prominent community figures like Artosis, Rapid, etc. need to stop covering for the development team: it's not okay to say that things are okay, when they are not, because that's lying. I understand it's a different culture and that they are casters, and regularly do it during casts "hyping" things up (and I know I'm not the only annoyed by this), but things have gotten way out of hand. The "new bug" that they have discovered during the casting the finals of one of the two premiere Starcraft leagues is over 2 years old. Seriously, it's a huge fucking fiasco, guys, and there has been so many fiascos, and yet, so little consequences. Can we all just stop pretending and saying things are okay? They are not okay. We have a mature and hard-spirited community here, and we need to make use of it. We need community oversight over Matt and Grant because they are not making the right choices at all. Remember starlog.gg? They killed it for what reason again? Just because they will, in a couple of years, implement something that even though is not nearly as good, will be done by them? They are doing color change patches and spending this much time fixing bugs an insignificant change caused? It's like painting the fingernails of a severed hand, instead of trying to re-attach it... And once you realize you can't paint the fingernails, because it makes the legs fall of, you don't start putting the legs back on, you roll back and work on issues that actually matter... I understand quick and easy improvements are nice low hanging fruits you can give to the community... But if it becomes clear that it is in fact not an easy-to-implement thing, for god's sake, just roll back, and actually work on things that matter... We have SO MANY enthusiastic people. Noone is on PTR? Well for gods sake, just coordinate with us so that we have a bunch of people hopping on PTR at a pre-determined time... We organize tournies, and we have streams with over 100 viewers... Surely we would be able to get like 10-30 people to test things for an hour or two if you made a thread on TL and posted in Discord... And god help you, maybe on naver too or whatever the koreans are using? There is a bunch of ladder abuse going on, that was dealt with swiftly and effectively (compared to now) on Fish and Iccup. Why the fudge don't you rely on the help of community admins? Like seriously, name one legitimate reason? We have had developers 2pac, tec, mca, and many others with a much better understanding of the game and the community. Why aren't you hiring them as consultants? Like seriously, I'm pretty sure that they would work for you FREE of charge just for having a chance to help you with this clusterfuck of a messup that has been going on for 2 years, if you let them, and offer public acknowledgment of the work they put in for Blizzard entertainment. I'm sure they'd be happy to have "Consultant for Blizz. ent." on their CV, and it would be a win-win-win situation for everyone... I'm sorry for the harsh tone of this message, but we need to stop pussy-footing around and acknowledge what needs to be acknowledged -- not for the sake of personal validation, but because we very obviously need to start working out the steps to get things to a working state as a community. We're mostly all a bunch of adults here with limited free time -- we want to keep as many people active as we can, draw in as many new people as we can, and remastered is doing the opposite of this sometimes, alienating people with its bugginess, lack of features, etc. We need to figure this out, and the sooner the community takes a more active hand in this, the better. +1 great post It's 2020, start inclusivity, quit exclusivity for 20 years old game. Help develop the community, don't shoot it in the foot... | ||
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castleeMg
Canada758 Posts
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tec27
United States3696 Posts
That said, I do think a lot of prominent community members were all too willing to cede all control over to Blizzard without any resistance. BW has, for as long as I have been in the community, been a community-driven game. Blizzard pushed out a game, an expansion, and a series of balance patches over a couple years, and then they were done. They moved onto other games and left the community mostly to fend for itself. And it did! The community organized tournaments, created and refined competitive maps (and new map editors!), built ladder systems (on top of Blizzard's infrastructure, and later, in spite of it), and developed add-ons to improve the game. Throughout all those years, Blizzard remained largely oblivious to the game. I still remember a moment from ~2005, which is for some reason viscerally ingrained in my mind, when some TL members got to sit down with Blizzard developers. The current patch at the time had a bug that caused the game to crash if you canceled a building hatchery that already had a rally point set, which is a not-uncommon occurrence in regular games. This had been a well-known problem for *months*, and a recent foreign tournament had a very prominent game ended because this bug occurred. So the TL members sat down with Blizzard and they asked, "hey, when are you guys gonna release a fix for that hatchery bug?" Blizzard's reply? "What hatchery bug?" Brood War has achieved the success it has because of the community and the work they have done, not because of Blizzard. To give control back to Blizzard at this point would be like giving control of Fender over to the original inventor of the guitar. Blizzard formed the basic shape of the game we know today, but the community figured out how to make it balanced, competitive, and entertaining. It is not the same game they shipped in 1998, and indeed it is very unlikely that any single person or entity could have envisioned and created what we have today. I hope that if people take away only one thing from the Remastered saga, it is a renewed understanding that developer intervention in a game does not always bring positive outcomes to the community. Brood War, through chance, was one of the only highly competitive and long-lasting games where the community truly controlled its destiny. And yet, instead of understanding what we had and could further achieve, we ate up a bunch of empty promises from Blizzard and handed them the reins. After all, who could do better than the game's developer? We, the community, know what is best for ourselves, what is most direly needed and how it should work. If we want Brood War to last into the future, to shine brighter still instead of withering away, we need to build new structures to support it that Blizzard cannot steal from us again. We need systems in place that can support the contributors to this effort (tournament organizers, mapmakers, players, developers, and more) so that those contributions are sustainable. And, most of all, we need to build a platform that is wholly our own, such that we can focus on the community's needs, rather than filling in all of the holes that Blizzard leaves behind and opens up anew. I don't have real solutions or a path to solving these problems at this point, but I hope that we, as a community, can find a way to get there. The main thing I know is that if we keep looking to Blizzard to save us, all we're going to end up with is disappointment. | ||
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
Blizzard has largely effed up the scene. KSL seems to be rushed as hell. Most likely because they lost their entire esports staff. What's worse is theres barely room for another big tournament to run since ASL/KSL seems to be every other season. Not to mention people have said running a $10,000 tournament gets forced to pay fees to blizzard? Not sure how true that is but if it is it makes so little sense to me. I get they want to get paid or something, but it hurts the scene and drives away potential players. The ASL/KSL right now barely are profitable for players, as seen by the fact so many don't play in them and prefer to just stream. BW's big draw is competition and esports, and if Blizzard keeps messing up esports, it'll never draw new talent and the pro scene will die. They need to release Korea to just let them hold tournaments but not break blizz PR rules like alcohol or something. The more tournaments -> the more players, the more players -> the more pcbang bucks for blizz. I don't see how they don't understand this. Anyway, I defend Matt & Grant because they're trying really hard to do the right thing, but Blizz as a whole is messing it up. What's worse is, even if we get successful and start rebuilding the scene to some glory, if we get a $10,000 tournament, how effed are we? If Blizz is holding us back or will, what's even the point. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
ps. is anyone really blaming the individual developers? I mean the game probably has 100s of thousands of lines of code, it's not easy to manage for 1-2 developers that they have | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On December 10 2019 21:53 LG)Sabbath wrote: it's hard to tell if they're releasing smaller patches or not, but the game's performance seems to change, I was playing fine for a couple of weeks but today it's lagfest, it's like my mouse took sleeping pills and I end up misclicking a lot ps. is anyone really blaming the individual developers? I mean the game probably has 100s of thousands of lines of code, it's not easy to manage for 1-2 developers that they have Like this kind of case? Cursor jumping? https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/553445-cursor-jump-while-playing | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Keeping myself away from the game until everything is fixed. If it ever will be. They dont deserve my time when they cant fix sh!t without breaking the game over and over again. Blaming it on old code, lulz. And as Schamtoo mentions.. Whenever they touch SC:R code, they implement some stupid sh!t like new colors and break the game completely, also putting time on "fixes" that didnt need a fix in the first place. We have been living with this game and how it works for 20 years. Why change stuff now that has never been an issue. They should whole-heartedly spend 100% of the time getting 2v2 ladder, or fix the current ladder. Whatever is priority that will bring more players to SC:R, because colors arent. | ||
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basilos
1 Post
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
I think in an ideal world we would have 1 central (and autonomous...) place for everyone who wanted to play BW. If we were to try building this on our own, this would mean a fragmentation of the playerbase (which Remastered is doing for the past 2 years for some unbelievably, mind-bogglingly, incomprehensibly stupid reason with it's multi-server approach, too...). And then also there's still a TON of features left to build in SC:R... But ShieldBattery has even more features missing, no? So if we were to mass migrate to ShieldBattery, sponsor it's development, how many years would it be before it's a full-fledged solution? And how many years would it be for us to consolidate the playerbase over there? On the other hand, if we start a class-action lawsuit against Blizzard, and get them to "hire" the old Iccup and Fish admins as ladder admins, force a couple of changes and appoint tec27 as a community consultant-overseer for the team, SC:R could be in a close-to-ideal place in about... a year I feel like. Implementing the Iccup 2v2 system (provisionally, until in however many years they figure out 2v2 matchmaking) shouldn't take too long, greying out the servers and only leaving Korean and USWEST or whatever would solve the gateway consolidation issue, in not an elegant, but nonetheless working manner. Restore the starlog.gg API, fix the cursor bug, the dynamic TR mess, the graphics being ugly, the stupidly slow menus, and we pretty much have a functional server... Should mostly be doable in a year with proper leadership I think. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On December 11 2019 06:17 fazek42 wrote: On the other hand, if we start a class-action lawsuit against Blizzard. Does anyone actually think there is a remote chance a class-action lawsuit is even feasible let alone affordable? On December 11 2019 06:17 fazek42 wrote: Should mostly be doable in a year with proper leadership I think. Project manager in me says with what resourcing, who says what is priority, and what leadership? | ||
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
On December 11 2019 06:26 SchAmToo wrote: Does anyone actually think there is a remote chance a class-action lawsuit is even feasible let alone affordable? I'm not well-versed in legal things at all, so this could have been a silly suggestions, and I have no idea how things work in the US either, but the idea here would be just to drum up some publicity for the issues we are having. Because we can keep complaining to the dev team, but the issue is higher up -- and we need grab their attention. No need to hire expensive lawyers -- just hand in our observations of fake advertisement to a court, have a petition ready to hand in alongside to Blizzard, and hope that things change? On December 11 2019 06:17 fazek42 wrote: Should mostly be doable in a year with proper leadership I think. Project manager in me says with what resourcing, who says what is priority, and what leadership? I think the community could produce tec27 as project lead, him deciding on what's priority and how to do things. Resources stay the same, but he helps out? And the project is also opened up to outsourcing, which is currently happening too -- they have already replaced the stock mapmaker with a community developed one, etc. Same thing could go for 2v2 ladder -- just import Iccup's solution, import starlog.gg, etc. They HAVE to rely on the community more, and in light of their recent failures, and with Matt pondering how to actually do things on twitter, it seems like they are rather open to suggestions and help. They certainly need it too, and I think they do realize that. Edit: But I would also be happy with you taking on the project managing role, Schamtoo... Or TT1... Or basically any known community member with a proven track record who is willing to do the job... | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On December 11 2019 06:17 fazek42 wrote: I find there is much truth in what tec27 is saying, and that indeed, full autonomy would be the best option for us. However, I also don't know what the road to that would be; or if it is feasible at all -- and on the other hand, a middle-of-the-road solution of having community members in active positions within the Classic Games team seems a lot less far-fetched and actually doable sooner rather than later. I think in an ideal world we would have 1 central (and autonomous...) place for everyone who wanted to play BW. If we were to try building this on our own, this would mean a fragmentation of the playerbase (which Remastered is doing for the past 2 years for some unbelievably, mind-bogglingly, incomprehensibly stupid reason with it's multi-server approach, too...). And then also there's still a TON of features left to build in SC:R... But ShieldBattery has even more features missing, no? So if we were to mass migrate to ShieldBattery, sponsor it's development, how many years would it be before it's a full-fledged solution? And how many years would it be for us to consolidate the playerbase over there? On the other hand, if we start a class-action lawsuit against Blizzard, and get them to "hire" the old Iccup and Fish admins as ladder admins, force a couple of changes and appoint tec27 as a community consultant-overseer for the team, SC:R could be in a close-to-ideal place in about... a year I feel like. Implementing the Iccup 2v2 system (provisionally, until in however many years they figure out 2v2 matchmaking) shouldn't take too long, greying out the servers and only leaving Korean and USWEST or whatever would solve the gateway consolidation issue, in not an elegant, but nonetheless working manner. Restore the starlog.gg API, fix the cursor bug, the dynamic TR mess, the graphics being ugly, the stupidly slow menus, and we pretty much have a functional server... Should mostly be doable in a year with proper leadership I think. Do you really think, Blizzard would ever give any voluntary coder of the community access to the actual source code of SC:R? In my opinion, the main purpose of this whole remastered disaster was to get back total control of the whole e-sports side of BW and getting as much cost covered with the initial release sales of SC:R. Blizzard probably cut the development team as much as possible after the release to save as much money as possible but can still pretend to work on the game (at this speed we might have all the features we had before remastered came out in another 20 years). The best we can hope for I think, would be for Blizzard to announce the stop of all development for SC:R, so that the community can reverse-engineer the current state of the game and develop its own fixes/tools like it was done in the past without having to worry about new official patches which kill the 3rd party tools. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
On December 11 2019 07:16 Cryoc wrote: The best we can hope for I think, would be for Blizzard to announce the stop of all development for SC:R, so that the community can reverse-engineer the current state of the game and develop its own fixes/tools like it was done in the past without having to worry about new official patches which kill the 3rd party tools. This guy gets it. And if only it would be wrapped in a promise that they won't come legally after anyone who does it, it would make for a pretty good Christmas present  | ||
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poighg
2 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On December 12 2019 21:12 LG)Sabbath wrote: I don't know what the deal is or why performance changes every day, but today the game is completely unplayable and in slow motion pretty much, my mouse is super lagged no matter what setting I change there was a new patch ? maybe some windows 10 update ? | ||
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