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The problems with old and new maps

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Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-28 17:04:50
June 30 2018 16:39 GMT
#1
To make for a better reference, I decided to give this its own thread. I'll take the current KSL maps as examples, but the issues I'd like to point our are all-pervasive throughout the llegacy (Kespa) map pool.

Analyses of the remaining 1.22 ladder maps, New Heartbreak Ridge and Neo Aztec, can be found here.

Analyses of the ASL6 map candidates Autobahn, Sylphide, Neo Transistor and Labyrinth can be found here.

Fighting Spirit 1.3
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[image loading]


So the most devastating bug, that definitely needs to be fixed, is the infamous ramp vortex (red circle). There are also various low ground holes on the reversed ramps (green circles), which are quite problematic (they make units go blind and randomly miss shots, obviously)

These aren't all the bugs the map has, there are definitely some mining problems at some of the expansions (most notably the 4 o'clock and 10 o'clock naturals), but they make for a good starting point.

There are also some aesthetical issues with the bridges when playing with HD graphics, some of the tiles would need to be swapped out.


Circuit Breakers 1.0
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[image loading]


If Fighting Spirit has some mild terrain level issues with its ramps, Circuit Breakers certainly suffers from rather disastrous editing. The reverse ramps are a total mess as you can see.

Various mining problems are a given, but again these are secondary issues that can only be addressed one editing step further.

Looking closely you can even spot a Reaver jam in the top centre.


Blue Storm 1.2
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[image loading]


Blue Storm is even worse. It's not only the ramps that have erratic terrain levels, there are lower ground holes all over the place. These should be regarded as serious issues as the "random" miss chance that in spots where it is totally unexpected for players can easily cost a player a fight and subsequently the game. This is just absolutely shoddy terrain editing, although to be fair to the map maker, Blizzard are actually (at least partially) to blame for a fair share of these issues.

Not to forget a couple of very relevant vortices, however solving the atrocious terrain level mess will most likely get rid of these as well.


Polaris Rhapsody 1.0
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[image loading]


Basically the same as Blue Storm, absolutely shoddy editing.


Gladiator 1.1
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[image loading]


Well, there is that one out-of place high ground tile, but that's not much of an issue. So this is actually a pretty decent map to play on in its given state.

There are some mining issues (look at the 7 o'clock base, for example), but at least there is nothing absolutely terrible going on here.


The Fortress 2.0
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+ Show Spoiler [show image] +
[image loading]


Due to the simplistic terrain design, there's really nothing fundamentally wrong here. There are some spots where units can get stuck on terrain (vortex bugs – see red circles), but at least they are not near any chokes, so game-breaking calamities are very unlikely to happen (maybe some Protoss can use these spots for some insane stacked recalls ). So this map is basically in a good basic state to do some final bug-fixing on, so I'll use it as an example to demonstrate some pathfinding related issues (these kind of things apply to all the other maps as well, mind, it's just that they have other issues that need to be addressed first).

First of, the magenta circle marks a spot that causes Reaver jamming (Reavers not being able to fire Scarabs). the cause is the pathfinding region marked in red that's jammed in a wedge-like manner between the two magenta regions, completely separating them. The magenta regions are spatially close together, but due to this layout much farther apart as far as the pathfinding engine is concerned. Since Scarabs are units and have to move like units and Reaves therefore use pathfinding distance instead of linear distance to determine whether a target is in range, this completely throws of their attack. A Reaver in one of the magenta Regions can simply not attack anything in the other magenta region. This is a very problematic issues as pathfinding is mostly hidden from the player and thus this behaviour comes unpredictable to players and can easily cost them a Reaver, a fight or subsequently the game. It's doubly bad here, as this spot is actually within 8 tiles range of the mineral line, so in a spot where Reaver harassment is likely to occur.

Furthermore I highlighted some regions that cause aberrant pathfinding for mining workers. Yellow marks the regions, resource depots are placed in, regions with critical resources are marked in cyan. I
outlined the expected mining paths in cyan. Red paths mark aberrations from that standard. These do not necessarily affect all races, due to differences in the collision sizes of their respective resource depots, mostly they apply to Zerg, which are also most affected by low saturation mining deficits caused by inefficient worker pathing.
If resource depot and resources are placed in different regions, the workers' behaviour is determined by long-range pathfinding, so they try to find the "shortest" path from their location to their destination (in this case the the location being the location at the worker position while mining or when returning resources to the resource depot and the destination being the region where the resource node or resource depot is located), avoiding all "detours" through other regions where possible. This can lead to all kinds of unwanted results. Of the problematic spots outlined here, only the ones in the top main and at the top right pseudo-island expansion have significant impact in-game, which is amazingly good, statistically, compared to most other maps, although mining bugs in mains are of course doubly bad.
There is also another problem that can be seen in the top main: As yo can see, two of the recessed mineral fields are placed in a region that is located completely behind the mineral line and is directly connected to the region above it, where the top three patches of the mineral line are located and workers are mining. This means that workers, following the "shortest" path between the regions will migrate from the top patches through the gap in the mineral behind the mineral line to reach one of the other two patches. This can slow mining at medium to high saturations quite a bit (savvy player would probably just block the gap with a building).
There are some other optimizations to resource formations that could further improve mining smoothness and balance for one or all races which are not region related for this map and any other.
Another interesting aspect can be seen in the left main, where, as you may notice, the mineral line is basically build in a way to avoid all potential issues with the problematic region layout (the old school solution to such issues: Just juggle your minerals around until all buggy ones are eliminated)


I hope some of the information provided here is useful for players who want to abuse or work around some map bugs and of course for map makers struggling to debug their maps. Although most of all I hope that this raises awareness and understanding of the problems of the current map pool with players, tournament hosts and developers. We have all the tools to fix these and it is not really understandable why a game should be played competitively on maps that have the potential to screw players over in various "unpredictable" ways. It's a lot of work to actually update a map to a proper standard, though, because BW pathfinding is such a mindscrew. It's just way too much work for me or any map maker to do alone without much incentive for the updated maps to actually be used widely (and I guess most map makers are like me and would much rather work on their own maps if they find the time). So what we would need is better communication with tournament hosts (especially the big ones like Blizzard and afreeca), proper prioritization and ample planning ahead to make meaningful progress. So any concrete idea how that could be achieved is welcome. It should also be mentioned that Blizzard's promissed, but not yet delivered, support of new adaptable ramps puts most map projects, be it new map or updates, into a perpetual limbo until those additional assets, which would make some things somewhat easier (or at least more eye-pleasing), at least as far just SC:R (not 1.16-compatible updates) is concerned.
onlystar
Profile Joined March 2015
United States971 Posts
June 30 2018 18:22 GMT
#2
i honestly cant believe the maps are not bug fixed yet when its possible to do so those vortex ramp bugs appear more often than you would think if you need to defend that 12oclock expo on f.s alot moving units up&down
LG)Sabbath
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Argentina3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-30 19:04:26
June 30 2018 19:04 GMT
#3
The 4 oclock main ramp on FS is really bad, sit a marine there and sometimes he can't see anything, very annoying
https://www.twitch.tv/argsabbath/
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
June 30 2018 19:58 GMT
#4
far be it from me to condemn a mans hobby, but the pretense that this is anything but...
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10145 Posts
June 30 2018 20:21 GMT
#5
On July 01 2018 04:58 Dazed. wrote:
far be it from me to condemn a mans hobby, but the pretense that this is anything but...

Can you complete the thought? This post irks me like an itch you can't reach.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
JungleTerrain
Profile Joined January 2012
Chile799 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-30 20:46:34
June 30 2018 20:45 GMT
#6
He’s bettering the maps you play on, nothing wrong with that. If anything, it’s good. Especially when the maps are going to be played in a competitive setting with thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars on the line. Everything should be tip top, no?
www.broodwarmaps.net
757
Profile Joined June 2018
10 Posts
June 30 2018 23:09 GMT
#7
I actually think this is what makes brood war such a great game.. You have to work around those problem, and make something else happen for yourself!
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-30 23:33:38
June 30 2018 23:32 GMT
#8
On July 01 2018 08:09 757 wrote:
I actually think this is what makes brood war such a great game.. You have to work around those problem, and make something else happen for yourself!

These aren't some issues to just work around, though. Many of them are not apparent to the player to begin with, so they are more likely to screw you over without you even realizing it.
For example, you cannot manually micro your workers throughout the game to compensate for mining problems. The only "working around" you could do is to pick a build order that can cope with a mineral (or gas) deficit.
With things like Reaver jams, vortices or "random" low ground holes you probably would not even know they are there until they screw you over in a game, and even then you'd probably miss it because it happens off-screen, because you most likely have better things to focus your attention on than to keep statistics of things like missed shots or resource gathering rates or, most likely, you do not even have the mental model to realize there is problem.
Would you really claim that seeing these pictures you'd rather play on Blue Storm, which has all those issues, than on Gladiator, which hasn't, because you have more stuff consider to "work around"?
There aren't some fantastic new strategies and tricks to be gained here. Most of this is just very basic stuff that players rely on that it just works (even if does not). If you are on terrain that is visually distinguished to be uphill, you expect a miss chance advantage. Period. If you are mining from a base, you expect it to give you a comparable income to the analogue base your opponent is ming from. If you drop a Reaver to fire a Scarab, you expect it to actually do it and not sit there and do nothing while a Vulture is dancing right in front of its nose. And units just getting stuck on terrain where you cannot dislodge them any more is certainly nothing that you can just work around. Unless you are Protoss and have a recall ready you are basically screwed.
onlystar
Profile Joined March 2015
United States971 Posts
July 01 2018 00:10 GMT
#9
On July 01 2018 08:09 757 wrote:
I actually think this is what makes brood war such a great game.. You have to work around those problem, and make something else happen for yourself!



rampvortex can cause to lose a complete control group 12unit (or more??) all stuck inside the ramp... its often GG if that happens in early or late game
razorsuKe
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-19 17:51:19
July 19 2018 17:35 GMT
#10
Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago:
Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again

[image loading]

It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications.

Or simply retire this map already
EntusGalleries.com - CJ Uniform Sale
SuGo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States681 Posts
July 19 2018 18:18 GMT
#11
On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:
Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago:
Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again

[image loading]

It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications.

Or simply retire this map already



Never. Long live FS ~
razorsuKe
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada2000 Posts
July 19 2018 19:02 GMT
#12
On July 20 2018 03:18 ProtossGG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:
Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago:
Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again

[image loading]

It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications.

Or simply retire this map already



Never. Long live FS ~


why though? I think it's fine if you like to play on it, but do you honestly look forward to watching tournament games being played on FS?
EntusGalleries.com - CJ Uniform Sale
LG)Sabbath
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Argentina3022 Posts
July 19 2018 19:55 GMT
#13
On July 20 2018 04:02 razorsuKe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2018 03:18 ProtossGG wrote:
On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:
Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago:
Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again

[image loading]

It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications.

Or simply retire this map already



Never. Long live FS ~


why though? I think it's fine if you like to play on it, but do you honestly look forward to watching tournament games being played on FS?

What I like is seeing the pros play with standard strategies on standard maps occasionally, so I can compare that to my games or w/e. With that said, it would be fine if they used other maps with similar features, instead of FS.
https://www.twitch.tv/argsabbath/
SuGo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States681 Posts
July 19 2018 20:13 GMT
#14
On July 20 2018 04:02 razorsuKe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2018 03:18 ProtossGG wrote:
On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:
Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago:
Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again

[image loading]

It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications.

Or simply retire this map already



Never. Long live FS ~


why though? I think it's fine if you like to play on it, but do you honestly look forward to watching tournament games being played on FS?


100%. I enjoy seeing the pros play on CB/FS/Gladiator

I've argued this in some other threads so I don't want to derail the point of this. Simply my opinion; but I'm a huge advocate of FS/CB.
razorsuKe
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada2000 Posts
July 19 2018 20:45 GMT
#15
Fair enough, but can we at least agree that the Vortex of Doom™ should be fixed though? :D
EntusGalleries.com - CJ Uniform Sale
JungleTerrain
Profile Joined January 2012
Chile799 Posts
July 19 2018 21:33 GMT
#16
It’s not a difficult fix. Just move some terrain around or add unwalkable doodads here and there around the area. Might have to change some mineral formations if other pathfinding regions are affected. Wouldn’t be surprised if Freakling already has a debugged versión laying around somewhere.
www.broodwarmaps.net
CHEONSOYUN
Profile Joined August 2017
522 Posts
July 19 2018 22:52 GMT
#17
So that's why marines sometime struggle against dragoons on the ramp...
JAEDONG...!!! EFFORT IS ANGRY. ZERG...?!
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
July 20 2018 04:19 GMT
#18
I already posted a version that fixed the vortex and a a few other quick to fix issues (holes in ramps, bridge blends being screwed up by HD graohics) about a year ago. I even sent the link to Afreeca admins. But that's the crucial point here: The responsible for the big tournaments still seem to be completely oblivious as to the state of the art of melee map making. I guess they need more of a shitstorm from players about it. Afreeca seems to not even be able to enforce the minimal quality standard (such as smooth mining for all bases – they don't even make a mention of any other serious bugs) they set for their map contests (although it would be reasonable to allow for a lot of negligence in first versions, as complete bugfixing is best left till last, when the layout is completely finalized – but I feel that this is a general agreement and discussion we have not achieved yet). Most players are probably just worn down by decades of bad compromises that more or less forced them to just live with all kinds of crazy shenanigans. "It's just the game. Brood War, man, it's crazy!" – Literally Tastetosis whenever something happens that they don't fully understand.
So the question stands:
How can the top level players and tourney hosts be made aware of the importance of the issues and how can we instate an actual, reasonable effort to get them fixed, map by map, for at least the ones in current high level competition?
Maybe having some open documentation in Korean of bugs and how modern map making tools can get rid of them (and by this point it's actually all of the really serious ones) would help. So if some one is willing to do some translation work, just send me a PM.

On July 20 2018 07:52 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
So that's why marines sometime struggle against dragoons on the ramp...

Why Dragoons vs. Marines in particular? If neither of them get stuck on that tile it is not this bug.
CHEONSOYUN
Profile Joined August 2017
522 Posts
July 20 2018 04:42 GMT
#19
sometimes my marines go blind on top of the ramp :x

for me it's the only noticeable bug i've experienced personally
JAEDONG...!!! EFFORT IS ANGRY. ZERG...?!
SuGo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States681 Posts
July 20 2018 04:46 GMT
#20
On July 20 2018 05:45 razorsuKe wrote:
Fair enough, but can we at least agree that the Vortex of Doom™ should be fixed though? :D


Yeah, I could agree that the really bad "Vortex doom" at 12 nat on FS should be fixed. Lol
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