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On February 13 2018 22:50 Ikirouta wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 13 2018 22:12 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2018 22:04 Ikirouta wrote:
[*]For the potential issues with the Kaydarin geysers I need some in-game investigation first, but to address something suggested above: For geysers that are permanently mineable only by Zerg, Kaydarin Crystals are the only option, because they are the only building unit with invincibility hard-coded into their unit properties (you can make other buildings invincible, but for that you need to use triggers or place them as units, both of which are not compatible with melee maps).
this is untrue, you can glitch workers to permanently mine as terran and protoss in some positions. I tested it, has to be fixed. As I said, I need to investigate that in-game. No idea why that would work, but if it does, then it does of course constitute a significant (map-breaking) problem. The point is that in that case there'd be no easy fix (probably none at all). As a starting point: Can you give some detailed explanation as to what you did to force workers to auto-mine and in what positions it does/doesn't work? I posted pictures earlier in this thread. You block sides of the gas with buildings (preferably turrets or pylons). Gather up a clump of workers by clicking on the gas, block unbuildable areas around the gas with other units, select your stack of workers, click over the gas so they glitch in (like mineralwalking) and spam glick gather on the gas. Usually it would take 2-3 tries for me to get a worker in. In order for the worker to return to the gas once its out, you have to place 2 units on hold position on path it uses to return the gas to a cc/nexus. It takes a lot of effort, so thats why I am wondering if its worth at all. As I mentioned earlier in this thread " It is doable in topleft and topright, however bottom right its really hard and bottomleft nearly impossible.". For some reason, if the gas is positioned so that the workers have to face right to return the minerals, you don't need to block the left side of the gas with other workers to glitch them in. I have no idea why. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/kZ1UFzp.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/g58fNxl.png)
So its a ton of resources and APM spent to glitch single workers in and gain the occasional 8 additional gas (while losing a ton of resources for all those workers basically idling around instead of, say, mine a depleted geyser). I don't think this is a problem at all in actual gameplay. It's simply not worth it. Unless you can find a way to glitch workers at a constant rate during auto-mining (which in theory should not be possible for P/T), I think there is no actual issue.
EDIT: Reading again, you wrote that you could get workers to mine permanently. I could not yet reproduce this, though.
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On February 13 2018 23:41 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2018 22:50 Ikirouta wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 13 2018 22:12 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2018 22:04 Ikirouta wrote:
[*]For the potential issues with the Kaydarin geysers I need some in-game investigation first, but to address something suggested above: For geysers that are permanently mineable only by Zerg, Kaydarin Crystals are the only option, because they are the only building unit with invincibility hard-coded into their unit properties (you can make other buildings invincible, but for that you need to use triggers or place them as units, both of which are not compatible with melee maps).
this is untrue, you can glitch workers to permanently mine as terran and protoss in some positions. I tested it, has to be fixed. As I said, I need to investigate that in-game. No idea why that would work, but if it does, then it does of course constitute a significant (map-breaking) problem. The point is that in that case there'd be no easy fix (probably none at all). As a starting point: Can you give some detailed explanation as to what you did to force workers to auto-mine and in what positions it does/doesn't work? I posted pictures earlier in this thread. You block sides of the gas with buildings (preferably turrets or pylons). Gather up a clump of workers by clicking on the gas, block unbuildable areas around the gas with other units, select your stack of workers, click over the gas so they glitch in (like mineralwalking) and spam glick gather on the gas. Usually it would take 2-3 tries for me to get a worker in. In order for the worker to return to the gas once its out, you have to place 2 units on hold position on path it uses to return the gas to a cc/nexus. It takes a lot of effort, so thats why I am wondering if its worth at all. As I mentioned earlier in this thread " It is doable in topleft and topright, however bottom right its really hard and bottomleft nearly impossible.". For some reason, if the gas is positioned so that the workers have to face right to return the minerals, you don't need to block the left side of the gas with other workers to glitch them in. I have no idea why. So its a ton of resources and APM spent to glitch single workers in and gain the occasional 8 additional gas (while losing a ton of resources for all those workers basically idling around instead of, say, mine a depleted geyser). I don't think this is a problem at all in actual gameplay. It's simply not worth it. Unless you can find a way to glitch workers at a constant rate during auto-mining (which in theory should not be possible for P/T), I think there is no actual issue. EDIT: Reading again, you wrote that you could get workers to mine permanently. I could not yet reproduce this, though.
Its a ton of APM to put one worker in, and tons of afk units to keep them going in. Its not worth it, all I'm saying that its possible, but its not worth it.
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Uploaded all the maps on broodwarmaps.net. This time seems like they didn’t even bother to protect them. And the map with the Korean name, I’ve just been calling Red October.
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On February 14 2018 02:24 JungleTerrain wrote:
Uploaded all the maps on broodwarmaps.net. This time seems like they didn’t even bother to protect them. And the map with the Korean name, I’ve just been calling Red October. What sense would protecting them even make? It would only make bug finding a lot harder.
Google translate is always funny:
"Foreskin mineral" O_o :D
"The general homepage was removed from the front yard structure" @_@
"This gas can only be slaughtered (that is, it can be gassed to build an extractor)" ??!?! + Show Spoiler +You monsters, leave those poor geysers alone!
"refineries and aspirators" + Show Spoiler +Come to think about it, gas mining via an aspirator would actually be way more efficient than the current method.
"Other nostalgia are separated by a neutral building" :\ Whatevvvaaaa…
"Although the gas multi is more important than the gas multi" Relation does not compute…
"gas multimodal" …itiwise thingamajig…
"control of the right of provision" + Show Spoiler +You require more provisions! – Always!
"command center anti-flyover mineral on the turtleneck" + Show Spoiler +
"Tooth v Terran was terribly hard on Terran"+ Show Spoiler +It definitely sounds painful, and not only for the Terran: I wouldn't want to bite a Tank. But maybe that's just me. Maybe they are tasty, who knows? + Show Spoiler +
"Map Style: Combined Mystique Map" + Show Spoiler +
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Thank you freakling for the write up. And it's cool that latias is a tler. Korean?
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Lol Freakling.
Yes LatiAs is korean. I'm not sure if he's out of his military service yet though.
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It is a ZERG ONLY gas
no problem
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Yes，(2)Circulator have the “Ultra-Vortex” bug ，it's realy a black hole
On February 13 2018 19:46 Freakling wrote:If I'd known they're looking for completely crazy this time, I'd have send them Incidicence or something… Anyway, just from some quick glances: (3)Transistor: Clone of an old SC2 concept. We have plenty of maps of that kind on BWMN (Jungle's (3)Miss You for example) and my argument has always been that they'd basically be impossible to balance for BW meta, because of the backdoor, the impossibility to set up proper FEs/defenses and the very linear nature of between base pathing resulting from this type of layout. (2)Bulkeunsiwol (or something like that): Another highly problematic backdoor, Can't see details on the picture, though. (2)Circulator: Basically a Chain Reaction clone, but with changed terrain profile with standard high ground main/low ground nat. So overall pretty legitimate concept.
(4)Sunburst: Way too basic 4 player layout with another backdoor thrown in to make it more interesting. I need to look at it in editor to see if the backdoor is at al secured against early runbys. Either way, I think there is already too much thrown in in terms of obstrucive terrain (look at those overly long nat chokes, for example), just to make those backdoors somewhat work. for my taste. (4)Sparkle: The layout is absolutely cookie cutter, but I guess the fact that they are considering an island map at all and that a reasonable attempt was made to balance it for Zerg with the help of modernized map mechanics makes it an interesting option. (3)Syliphide: Solid 3 player map. Not my personal favourite of LatiAs', but his maps are generally exceptionally well made and I have studied it in detail before, so at the very least I know I won't have to write any extensive bug report on this one once I've studied them in the editor and done some in-game testing. Some quick runthrough of basic bug checking: (3)Transistor:- Horribly buggy ramps (unfortunately not a surprise), terrain levels all over the place: Why can't people still use ScmDraft properly?!
- What's the matter with those Khaydarins in the mains? Seems like they are set up to block the free of the three spawns from being built at (so no one can efficiently take it as an expo). Problem with this, apart from being a pretty stupid mechanic to begin with, is that it causes stack bug (players can build on top of the edge of their initial resource depots). Can easily be fixed by using disabled installation doors instead, but again: Why would you even want to forcefully cripple an expansion?
- There's currently a vortex bug on the bottom ramp to the plateau at 3 o'clock, but ramps need to be fixed first anyway before pathfinding can be addressed.
(2)Bulkeunsiwol: - Ramps are an absolute nightmare (surprise! + Show Spoiler +)
- While those 40 mineral fields are in principle a solid backdoor protection that cannot easily be broken offensively early on, I think they are way too close to the actual expansion. Not only can tanks dropped (or just moved) behind them shell the complete mineral line, but workers will most likely migrate there on their own, so players easily lose control over when to open up that path.
- Not even going to look for any vortex bugs, because first those train wrecks of ramps need to be fixed before any further pathfinding fixes can be applied…
- Why is the natural gas so far away?!? On top of that, miners (both mineral and gas) will get in the way of units moving from the main towards the backdoor all the time.
- Some very bad gas positions in general. Best to plan map layouts around eventual gas positions from the very start!
(2)Circulator: - Do I even need to mention the buggy ramps?
- Little nitpick: Some potentially problematic drop spots are also still there.
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left main (Ultra vortex bugs may be a bit nitpicky, unless found in tight chokes, but why not remove any easily fixed and potentially gamebreaking bugs?)
- Really bad (and badly balanced) natural gas positions (among others)
(4)Sunburst: - I can see some probable mining problems here. Would need to confirm in-game.
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left 3rd
- Ultra-Vortex bug in bottom 3rd
- 3 Ultra-Vortex bugs in narrow passage to the right of top left main (the fact that these are in a tight passage means they could actually lead to game-breaking situations!)
(4)Sparkle: - (not a bug) There's also a lot of creep for building Nydus Canals around the map, which is nice. Take note, Blizzard: This is why we need creep spawners back!
- For the potential issues with the Khaydarin geysers I need some in-game investigation first, but to address something suggested above: For geysers that are permanently mineable only by Zerg, Khaydarin Crystals are the only option, because they are the only building unit (well, apart form other resource patches, of course) with invincibility hard-coded into their unit properties (you can make other buildings invincible, but for that you need to use triggers or place them as units, both of which are not compatible with melee maps).
- I can also see some potential mining bugs.
- Ultra-Vortex bug in bottom left main
(3)Syliphide: - Vortex bug in bottom right main
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left main
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left raised jungle expo
- Apart from those nitpicks, nothing. Guess LatiAs has hung around on BWMN too much
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On February 14 2018 14:19 FOXin wrote:Yes，(2)Circulator have the “Ultra-Vortex” bug ，it's realy a black hole Show nested quote +On February 13 2018 19:46 Freakling wrote:If I'd known they're looking for completely crazy this time, I'd have send them Incidicence or something… Anyway, just from some quick glances: (3)Transistor: Clone of an old SC2 concept. We have plenty of maps of that kind on BWMN (Jungle's (3)Miss You for example) and my argument has always been that they'd basically be impossible to balance for BW meta, because of the backdoor, the impossibility to set up proper FEs/defenses and the very linear nature of between base pathing resulting from this type of layout. (2)Bulkeunsiwol (or something like that): Another highly problematic backdoor, Can't see details on the picture, though. (2)Circulator: Basically a Chain Reaction clone, but with changed terrain profile with standard high ground main/low ground nat. So overall pretty legitimate concept.
(4)Sunburst: Way too basic 4 player layout with another backdoor thrown in to make it more interesting. I need to look at it in editor to see if the backdoor is at al secured against early runbys. Either way, I think there is already too much thrown in in terms of obstrucive terrain (look at those overly long nat chokes, for example), just to make those backdoors somewhat work. for my taste. (4)Sparkle: The layout is absolutely cookie cutter, but I guess the fact that they are considering an island map at all and that a reasonable attempt was made to balance it for Zerg with the help of modernized map mechanics makes it an interesting option. (3)Syliphide: Solid 3 player map. Not my personal favourite of LatiAs', but his maps are generally exceptionally well made and I have studied it in detail before, so at the very least I know I won't have to write any extensive bug report on this one once I've studied them in the editor and done some in-game testing. Some quick runthrough of basic bug checking: (3)Transistor:- Horribly buggy ramps (unfortunately not a surprise), terrain levels all over the place: Why can't people still use ScmDraft properly?!
- What's the matter with those Khaydarins in the mains? Seems like they are set up to block the free of the three spawns from being built at (so no one can efficiently take it as an expo). Problem with this, apart from being a pretty stupid mechanic to begin with, is that it causes stack bug (players can build on top of the edge of their initial resource depots). Can easily be fixed by using disabled installation doors instead, but again: Why would you even want to forcefully cripple an expansion?
- There's currently a vortex bug on the bottom ramp to the plateau at 3 o'clock, but ramps need to be fixed first anyway before pathfinding can be addressed.
(2)Bulkeunsiwol: - Ramps are an absolute nightmare (surprise! + Show Spoiler +)
- While those 40 mineral fields are in principle a solid backdoor protection that cannot easily be broken offensively early on, I think they are way too close to the actual expansion. Not only can tanks dropped (or just moved) behind them shell the complete mineral line, but workers will most likely migrate there on their own, so players easily lose control over when to open up that path.
- Not even going to look for any vortex bugs, because first those train wrecks of ramps need to be fixed before any further pathfinding fixes can be applied…
- Why is the natural gas so far away?!? On top of that, miners (both mineral and gas) will get in the way of units moving from the main towards the backdoor all the time.
- Some very bad gas positions in general. Best to plan map layouts around eventual gas positions from the very start!
(2)Circulator: - Do I even need to mention the buggy ramps?
- Little nitpick: Some potentially problematic drop spots are also still there.
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left main (Ultra vortex bugs may be a bit nitpicky, unless found in tight chokes, but why not remove any easily fixed and potentially gamebreaking bugs?)
- Really bad (and badly balanced) natural gas positions (among others)
(4)Sunburst: - I can see some probable mining problems here. Would need to confirm in-game.
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left 3rd
- Ultra-Vortex bug in bottom 3rd
- 3 Ultra-Vortex bugs in narrow passage to the right of top left main (the fact that these are in a tight passage means they could actually lead to game-breaking situations!)
(4)Sparkle: - (not a bug) There's also a lot of creep for building Nydus Canals around the map, which is nice. Take note, Blizzard: This is why we need creep spawners back!
- For the potential issues with the Khaydarin geysers I need some in-game investigation first, but to address something suggested above: For geysers that are permanently mineable only by Zerg, Khaydarin Crystals are the only option, because they are the only building unit (well, apart form other resource patches, of course) with invincibility hard-coded into their unit properties (you can make other buildings invincible, but for that you need to use triggers or place them as units, both of which are not compatible with melee maps).
- I can also see some potential mining bugs.
- Ultra-Vortex bug in bottom left main
(3)Syliphide: - Vortex bug in bottom right main
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left main
- Ultra-Vortex bug in left raised jungle expo
- Apart from those nitpicks, nothing. Guess LatiAs has hung around on BWMN too much
Lol, I actually overlooked that one, though it's a real biggie of an issue…
The one I have listed is on the right-hand edge of the main (these things tend to be on right side, due to nodes being placed right off centre of a region, probably due to coordiante rounding).
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On February 14 2018 14:11 FOXin wrote:It is a ZERG ONLY gas no problem
yes, it is SUPPOSED to be a ZERG ONLY gas. But it is possible for protoss and terran to mine it. I talked over how earlier in the thread. This is cause by the asymmetrical shape of the spire on top of the gas.
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Lol, the map description of Transistor actually states "presented by Kespa", so this is probably a really old Kespa-reject map… Explains the usual buggy ramps, of course.
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Huh... it just dawned on me that 3 of the 6 maps have main bases that offer no advantage to narrow screen users (i.e. widescreen users will still have the main centered on the screen). Intentional?
Well, there's also a 66% chance of getting a widescreen friendly main on Transistor too, oh and 33% on sylphide, 50% on sparkle.
So yeah, I think it's fair to say that widescreen is buffed with these maps?
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On February 14 2018 04:01 JungleTerrain wrote:
Lol Freakling.
Yes LatiAs is korean. I'm not sure if he's out of his military service yet though.
When Stork reviewed the new maps yesterday LatiAs actually joined the chat and commented on there.
So if anyone knows Korean they can check what he has to say in this VOD: http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/30782005#n
Map review starts from 1 hour 5 minutes mark, not sure when exactly he joins.
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On February 15 2018 04:38 PVJ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 04:01 JungleTerrain wrote:
Lol Freakling.
Yes LatiAs is korean. I'm not sure if he's out of his military service yet though. When Stork reviewed the new maps yesterday LatiAs actually joined the chat and commented on there. So if anyone knows Korean they can check what he has to say in this VOD: http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/30782005#n Map review starts from 1 hour 5 minutes mark, not sure when exactly he joins.
I don't have time to watch it at the moment, nor do I even speak Korean. Could some one give a tldr if there's anything interesting in it?
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
I've been practicing a lot on these maps the past few days and genuinly I'm in love with every single one. Red October is still my favourite but all of them are really fun.
I'm going to be playing/getting people to play these maps for a long time for sure!
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Say I wonder if there was any information about the big meeting with Afreeca CEO and 40 players.
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qikz, how do you get people to play the maps? you have a group of buddies or do randoms just come in and play?
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On February 15 2018 13:59 Golgotha wrote:
qikz, how do you get people to play the maps? you have a group of buddies or do randoms just come in and play?
I run tournaments >:D
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Mind you the maps were updated. I will have to update the bwmn threads soon.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/XPMwaIk.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PySRFPX.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/OwyNqpR.png)
