|
On August 04 2017 00:32 TT1 wrote:
Bisu is weird tho, his carrier micro isnt really good but he has good reaver micro. I find that he micros way way better with small groups of units as opposed to big army engagements.
Agree with this, Stork was better with large armies when he was good imo, even in PvZ. But Bisu is pure magic with stuff like, sairs dodging scourge, shuttle reaver micro, 2 zealots killing 8 zerglings in the open and both surviving with 0.5 hp(lol).
|
On August 03 2017 23:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 23:56 Lorch wrote:
Jesus fucking Christ. BW is back for fucks sake. Am I the only one who remembers Tving OSL 2012? The sadness in the eyes of casters, players, journalists and fans alike? You can blame blizz/sc2 or whatever you want for that. Who cares? It is back now and it refused to die when the times were darkest. We are on the brink of the beginning of the 3rd chapter of bw. The one where it rises from the ashes like a phoenix. And instead of being happy you guys can't stop arguing what has been argued for 7 years now? Let SC2 be SC2, let CS be CS, let LoL be LoL etc. BW is BW and it's fucking back! I would hope that to be the case, but what worries me personally is that for ti to be truly back you need new blood. So far the pc bang stats don't really show that new blood is streaming in, in fact there is no real difference between now with SC:R and before (which seems weird?) For reference: http://gametrics.com/
SC:R isn't out yet.
|
What do you mean it's not out yet? It's out in pc bangs
|
On August 04 2017 00:52 ReTr0[p.S] wrote:
Well that's a big fucking issue if I've ever seen one, hopefully it's related to PC specs and not bad programming.
it doesnt always happen tho, maybe once every 2 games
|
EDIT: Fuck it, if it comes back, it will be reinstated.
|
That peak in the gametric chart belongs to the weekend on which the GG together event took place. The general interest is of course highest on that day. I don't know much about Korean lifestyle but I'd assume older players who are now adult and work full-time jobs cannot spend as much time in the PC cafes. So having an increase of around 15% in that chart's units on the monday after the release of remastered compared to the friday before is maybe not as little as it sounds. Apparently on July 29 (saturday) SC:R was not available yet but still there was a notable increase of around 50% compared to the friday before. And on July 30 (sunday) most people probably followed the release event. So depending on what was actually measured for that chart that might also have played a role (e.g., people will probably not play themselves and watch the event at the same time).
On the whole, the data from the next weekend might be more telling of how much extra interest in BW the remastering has generated that has not been only mere curiousity because that would have largely died down after the showmatches and a week of streaming the beta. Anyway, while I think these are reasonable assumptions they could of course be wrong. I'm just saying even if the data of that chart was not tampered with we need to consider more information to tell the whole story.
And when there will be starleagues again I am sure they will be a success. And it will bring a tear to my eyes regardless of data  And some more tears when Jaedong loses to terran in the round of 8 :/
|
On August 04 2017 00:04 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 20:52 Letmelose wrote:
I think he had a fair point about Flash though, Flash is indeed a fearsome mechanical player, but his forte was never otherworldly micro-management. I first noticed it when his bionic micro-management wasn't as jaw-dropping as someone like BoxeR, or Casy during their primes, despite making his debut being initially dubbed as the "Bionic Genius".
But Jaedong said Flash's marine micro is beyond your imagination... BEYOND YOUR IMAGINATION!! I think Flash was always praised for his control of large armies. Terrans used to complain they try to copy Flash's builds but only he can get away with them, which is another testament to his precision. I am hard put to think of players better than Flash at micro, to be honest. You might be a little nostalgic for marine vs lurker micro in low econ games. Because Flash definitely gets a lot more mileage from his units than any other player I can think of.
Flash himself said on stream that his best strengths were not his micro-management.
Flash was probably the best at controlling large groups of ground armies for all three match-ups, and his science vessel usage was beyond approach. Apart from that, I don't think he was the absolute best in small scale micro-management for pretty much any composition of units. I don't think that highly of his early game terran-versus-terran skirmishing abilities, nor did I think his vulture micro-management was any better than somebody like FanTaSy, for example. His mastery of aerial units such as wraiths, valkyries, and battlecruisers was nothing special, while players such as Leta, and FanTaSy were more famous for using these kind of aerial units to their fullest potential.
Flash was the clear cut best in four things in my opinion, large scale groundarmy management in all three match-ups, and science vessel micro-management in terran-versus-protoss match-up. Apart from that, he was just one of the best, or one of the better terran players.
Overall, Flash may be the best modern day terran player in terms of micro-management, but if you consider all three races, and the kind of superlative micro-managements someone like Jaedong, and Stork during his prime was capable of doing, I don't think Flash can be considered in the same tier in terms of micro-management. In terms of micro-management, these two during their absolute prime had almost all aspects of their race mastered in my opinion, which cannot be said for Flash during his professional years.
Of course, Flash was untouchable in some regards, especially his large scale army micro-management, but like people said, Bisu too was godlike with some of the units he was more familiar with, but never fully mastered the art of battle in the protoss-versus-terran match-up, both in terms of large scale ground troop battles, and aerial warfare with carriers. I think both were incomplete in terms of micro-management, but it doesn't mean that they were bad at micro-management at all, like you said, it's hard to list players who were better. I just think that their other strengths such as decision making, multi-tasking, and macro-management masked their relative incomplete mastery of micro-management compared to the very, very best. They didn't rely on their sheer micro-management abilities for all occasions like Jaedong, or Stork, and spent time honing other skill-sets.
|
I don't know where you guys are getting your data from, but in this link (http://gametrics.com/gameinfo/gameinfo01.aspx?gamename=%ec%8a%a4%ed%83%80%ed%81%ac%eb%9e%98%ed%94%84%ed%8a%b8), it shows a growth from 135757 on 07/27 to 234729 on 08/02 (the blue line in the graphic).
|
On August 03 2017 22:39 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 22:19 aQuaSC wrote:On August 03 2017 22:09 Keniji wrote:On August 03 2017 21:08 outscar wrote:
[...]
Now take a look at SC2: 1 key for all production facilites (yes, if you have 5 rax and 5 facts, 2 ports you can just bind them to one key then switch them via TAB), 1 key for your army, A move mostly works. The only thing depends is a bit micro when deathball vs. deathball scenario occurrs. You can win without micro if your army composition is better.
[...] I don't play sc2 and rarely watch it, but that statement seems as ignorant as the statement that bw only needs macro. I just read that post again... what does this mean, "a move mostly works"? Does it not work in BW? Do you actualy have to micro each unit individually in Brood War for any attack to work? You can win without micro if your army composition is better? Is it impossible to happen in BW? I'll give you benefit of the doubt and assume you had in mind those early to mid-game engagements where units are not as numerous and micro really counts, but you are trying really, really hard to twist arguments to your favor and make SC2 sound as dumb as possible. BW isn't just macro or micro or both, it's the real trategy, it's about everything: timing, decision making, positioning, spell casting, multitasking, map control. Please, PLEASE tell me which of those beautifully pointed out terms does not apply to SC2. On August 03 2017 22:12 BigFan wrote:
The AI does a great job of giving you a concave during engagements but I wouldn't say there's no micro at all What do you mean by "AI giving you a concave"? In SC2 AI just makes units execute orders in the easiest possible manner, it never does anything else. Back to topic, can anyone with Remastered tell me how does it look on their battle.net account? Does the Remastered license have any text or is it this image of box and nothing next to it? Mate, you sound like you never played BW or SC2 lol. You never noticed the nice surround the SC2 AI is giving you when you a-move your units into the opponents? When you a-click in SC2 (1 action), does the AI just execute that single action you did, or does it really give you something, you would have to apply maybe 20-40 actions for in BW? Get a full surround of a control group of units with another 1 or 2 full control groups (thats 12 btw) in BW, record it. Do the same in SC2. Come back here, post your evidence of it being the same. Nobody will laugh at you, promised.
The ai sucks compared to manual micro, the units that won't shoot will try and move around friendly units until it can attack.
The reasons why it sucks are:
1) It takes up a lot of extra time vs manually creating in arc the way how you would in brood war
2) you want all your units to attack instantly, thus you normally move your army forward
3) In most cases the enemy has so form of splash, so you want to split manually. A moving makes this really hard because it if timed wrong you ruin your pre-split
Lets not pretend it a-move suddenly gives you godlike micro skills.
|
|
|
Some of the foreign broodwar players have gotten beta access now at least (eon, lancer and trutacz that I know of). Can only hope they let more people in the coming days. o/
|
I was thinking a lot about player styles, and skill-sets that allowed them to succeed, and limitations that held them back as professional Brood War players. Now I had some time to think it through, I want to do a wall of text to clear out a few things.
I wanted to do a rough outline of the strengths and weaknesses of these players as professionals, in order to figure out what made them tick as players. Then I realized that somebody had already been doing that for years on end, way back since 2007.
It was an online game that worked somewhat like Football Manager, called MyStarcraft. It was first released in 2007, and due to its popularity, there were numerous patches until 2011. They did release some patches until 2012, but I think the game was mostly popular until 2011.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82691-mystarcraft-fm-like-scsim-with-translation-guide
Now, I'm not saying this game had captured the essence of Brood War professionals, but the person who made the game was an obvious fanatic of the game, and had a lot of help from numerous people as he modified, and improved his game.
I think it is unwise to rank or define certain players from the statistics decided for a simulation game, just like you don't judge football players soley from the numbers crunched for games such as Pro Evolution Soccer, or Football Manager. However, considering many of the discussions going over the various characteristics of the professional players in Brood War communities are lost after many of those sites got shut down, I think the numbers decided for the last ever version of MyStraft that was released in December 2012 can be of some use to how these players were viewed by at least some of the community members as the professional Brood War scene ended.
Before going into it, I'd like to define the parametres used for this simulation game.
1) Decision making: Self explanatory.
2) Micro-management: Self explanatory.
3) Aggression: Killer instinct, the weakest statistic in the game. Defines the players stylistically, and is good when combined with other skill-sets, but by itself is basically useless.
4) Multi-tasking: A statistic that is good for over-coming difficult match-ups (protoss-versus-zerg, zerg-versus-terran, and terran-versus-protoss), where it is more difficult to win head on.
5) Strategy: How good players are coming up with cheese. A good statistic when combined with good micro-management. Another statistic that is defines a style, rather than being a statistic that becomes better with bigger numbers. It is more of a useful statistic for the zerg players in general.
6) Macro-management: Self explanatory.
7) Reliability: Defensive capabilities. Another stylistic statistic that is the most useful statistic for the terran race.
8) Awareness: Scouting ability, and ability the read the enemy player. Helps against defending against players with high numbers for strategy (defending against cheese).
Here are the stastics for some of the players after professional Brood War ended.
Stork
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QKO4g1R.png)
A fairly even distribution. Recognizes Stork's micro-management abilities.
Bisu
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hyiry1s.png)
Has the highest statistics for multi-tasking in the game, which is accurate in my opinion both in terms of style, and capacity. Bisu also has a very high statistics for awareness, which is something I'm not that sure about. I don't know why his macro-management is rated so lowly, perhaps his poor performances in 2012 hurt his statistics. I also think believe that his micro-management shouldn't be a single value, but categorized for each of the match-ups, because of the huge discrepancies he had (godlike corsair micro-management, and embarassing carrier micro-management, for example).
Jaedong
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1iWcV7a.png)
Represents the characteristics of Jaedong fairly well in my opinion, with the highest figures for micro-management in the game. However, I'm not so sure about Jaedong's decision making being that high.
Flash
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vjyrB62.png)
Just an all around great numbers, with decision making, macro-management, and reliability being highlighted the most. I would rate his decision making higher (it was rated 950 in the 2011 version, but I guess his relatively mortal performances in 2012 must have influenced the statistics).
Now, Flash had a rating of 800 for his micro-management abilities, a figure that was also found in numerous terran players such as Leta, Light, and Baby. I wouldn't agree with a lot of the numbers used for this game, but it does show that people who watched a lot of professional games didn't regard Flash's micro-management to same degree as some of the top micro-management players from the other races, even if he was still top tier.
It is true that Flash had great large scale ground army management, but how much of that is due to the set-up that he had leading up to that point? When it came to the late-game, and other players were struggling with multi-tasking, and macro-management from multiple bases, that's when Flash started to differentiate himself the most from the other players in terms of micro-management. When it came to a battle of pure micro-management, Flash was still top tier, but had flaws that I pointed out previously. That's why I didn't rate Flash as a godlike player just in terms of micro-management.
|
I pretty much completely agree Letmelose, especially with Flash. And that was what I was trying to say - his "macro" is off the charts, and as Terran, just having tons of shit can set you up in better positions for fights (having tanks already in position/etc as opposed to rallying as much as a weaker macro player).. Another thing Flash has thats evident in his play is excellent decision making. He knows exactly when to pounce and take advantage of a game, thats something that people can practice years for and still not accomplish.
Anyways, Those charts seem pretty accurate to me except Jaedong's macro, I think his macro is one of the best for zergs, even if his micro is top-notch too (which is why he's such a dangerous player). To be fair though, I haven't really watched much BW since 2011ish, maybe he had a decline or something from his glory years. (and before people start freaking out as usual, I mean decline as in not as god-like as 2007-2009.. still clearly a top 3 zerg/overall player)
And judging by those statistics, clearly no one can catch Flash's "macro" level.. not something an amateur can do. I think letmelose stated it perfectly - "When it came to the late-game, and other players were struggling with multi-tasking and macro from multiple bases, thats when Flash started to differentiate himself from most of the other players"..
|
On August 04 2017 12:11 SnowfaLL wrote:
Anyways, Those charts seem pretty accurate to me except Jaedong's macro, I think his macro is one of the best for zergs, even if his micro is top-notch too (which is why he's such a dangerous player).
Even if you take the version patched for 2011, Jaedong's macro-management is rated at 700, and I believe it was taken down a notch due to his severe drop in form after transfering to Team 8 after Hwaseung Oz disbanded.
Jaedong had one of the smallest hands out of all professional players, which is probably the reason why he can't make use of all the hotkeys, which is perhaps part of the reason for his relatively weaker macro-management compared to his micro-management despite having an insanely high eAPM.
In version 1.28.03 of the game (released in July 2011) herO was rated a fair bit higher for his macro-management abilities, which I personally think is fair. ZerO and Hydra also had significantly higher ratings for macro-management, which could be considered reasonable, but I'm not so certain it was actually the case for these two. I do agree that Jaedong's macro-management abilities are being under-rated in general, but I don't think his macro-management was ever that exceptional, especially compared to his micro-management, which was the reason why he was such a force of nature earlier on during his career, even before he developed into a more complete player.
Jaedong's micro-management abilities were best showcased in the match-up of zerg-versus-zerg (a match-up more influenced by micro-management than any other) during his peak form as a mechanical player between 2007 and 2008, when he was having a win percentage that went beyond 80%, a number that wouldn't be matched by any player for such a prolonged period of time. Not even iloveoov in his prime managed to hold such a success rate versus zerg for two years. Name any player in history, be it BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Bisu, or Flash, none managed to have a record that went above 80% for any single match-up for a period as long as two calendar years. Most would have their most prized match-up rise above a 70% win rate at best.
So yes, Jaedong was very good at macro-management, even if it wasn't necessarily the absolute best at times, but it is an insult to his micro-management to put his macro-management abilities on a similar level.
|
Does anyone know if Blizzard plans to finetune the design before or after release or if this is the final version forever?
I wish they would still work on bringing some parts of SC:R closer to remastered:
- Toss death animation is too similar to hallucination
- Toss archon
- SCV being too bright
and probably a few other element of the game I'm forgetting now.
It would be good to know what Classic Games thinks of the feedback and what their plan is in this regard.
|
On August 03 2017 03:05 Nathanias wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 03:02 Waxangel wrote:On August 03 2017 02:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's a generalised opinion across the bw community and there is no problem in expressing it. yah, it's a pretty awful circlejerk here Honestly I'm impressed at how few fucks anyone here gives about actually having a conversation. It's literally just people pissing all over SC2 and anyone that doesn't think BW is the holy grail of games. I wanted to give this a chance and see what discussions people were having but it's literally just nonstop whine which I find pretty amazing. I'm glad so many people here also know the intricate details of my life ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Your a sad little man.. just leave bro lol
|
is any pro streaming in SD 4:3 besides Mini?
also, is the ingame font of minerals/gas/unit health different because it is the korean version or because of remastered?
|
On August 04 2017 17:13 PVJ wrote:
Does anyone know if Blizzard plans to finetune the design before or after release or if this is the final version forever?
I wish they would still work on bringing some parts of SC:R closer to remastered:
- Toss death animation is too similar to hallucination
- Toss archon
- SCV being too bright
and probably a few other element of the game I'm forgetting now.
It would be good to know what Classic Games thinks of the feedback and what their plan is in this regard.
Seems like the version isn't quite final since the dynamic lighting feature is not in yet so I think there's a good chance for at least the third item on your list.
|
Did something change? I no longer find scv thrusters so distractingly large and bright. Or have I just got used to the visual effect and can no longer detect it?
|
On August 04 2017 20:20 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 17:13 PVJ wrote:
Does anyone know if Blizzard plans to finetune the design before or after release or if this is the final version forever?
I wish they would still work on bringing some parts of SC:R closer to remastered:
- Toss death animation is too similar to hallucination
- Toss archon
- SCV being too bright
and probably a few other element of the game I'm forgetting now.
It would be good to know what Classic Games thinks of the feedback and what their plan is in this regard.
Seems like the version isn't quite final since the dynamic lighting feature is not in yet so I think there's a good chance for at least the third item on your list.
That's reassuring to hear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
