| Forum Index > BW General |
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
BJ Kevin and effort give us this info. But it is not fixed. About 90% Possibility, I think Edit Team list (90% correct) Flash, Stork, Sea, Terror Bisu, JD, Mind, Tyson Best , Rain, Briteney, Jangbi Last, Shuttle, Larva, Mini sSak, Hero, Horang2, ? Shine, Sharp, Rush, Miso Mong, Effort, Snow, Skyhigh Soulkey, Organ, Guemchi, Light 4:4Winners league format It is not fixed. Edit : Go to tournament 
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
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BossPurple
Sweden65 Posts
If Flash, Bisu and Effort want to create a team for this new season, they should be able to. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 16 2017 17:35 BossPurple wrote: I had no interest in watching the previous team battle because the teams weren't formed by the players themselves. If Flash, Bisu and Effort want to create a team for this new season, they should be able to. So... Team Flash, players picked by Flash. Team Bisu, players picked by Bisu. At which point in your opinion did players not form the teams themselves? | ||
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BossPurple
Sweden65 Posts
On May 16 2017 20:51 TheNewEra wrote: So... Team Flash, players picked by Flash. Team Bisu, players picked by Bisu. At which point in your opinion did players not form the teams themselves? The part where the team leaders have to be the top 8? | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
2/3 of the players being player-selected is pretty good, especially since the other 1/3 earns it through ASL Ro8 placement. Better than SSL 100% fan voting that virtually precludes an unknown from rising to the ranks. Flash could choose Purpose (unknown amateur in Ro24 ASL3) instead of Last next time. But it's not surprising to see friends pick each other. What changes would you specifically make? An open tournament without seeding with preliminaries? I think it being streamlined like this is what is important to Afreeca right now. | ||
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Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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Piste
6177 Posts
When will there be team FAT showmatch offline? | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 17 2017 01:12 Piste wrote: Awesome shit! When will there be team FAT showmatch offline? when we fund it  | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
Also, Working on it. Next event I want to have money to hand FAT regardless of result too. Team FAT is filled with incredibly awesome people. | ||
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FOXin
China15 Posts
On May 16 2017 20:45 PVJ wrote: Cool! It was a great format, loved the 2v2s. yeah, love it too. | ||
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Executer08
Germany163 Posts
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wabe.PrayHard
Bolivia45 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
On May 18 2017 05:40 Xxio wrote: Really hope this happens. I wonder what viewership was compared to ASL Agreed, and also curious of the viewership as well. | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
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tommya
Canada52 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
Which one is more interesting? ATB or ACL ? | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
I'd like to see a version of ACL that adds another team by padding rosters with some promising Fish amateurs like Purpose and is played offline. | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
but obviously ATB has the advantage of being offline and in the studio. if teams in ATB each had one lesser known/rookie player that would be great. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On June 01 2017 13:43 K.H.J wrote: I want to know your opinion, guys. Which one is more interesting? ATB or ACL ? ACL. ATB's only advantage is that its offline ACL is like proleague, ATB is like random 3:3s | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
I prefer ATB though because of the team diversity and because it is offline. | ||
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/523304-ajae-league-season-2 Liquidpedia should be updated: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ajae_League_Season_1 | ||
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
Final today: Team SKT : Best Rain sSak S2 Team STX : Last Hero Shuttle Mini 6/1. 21:00 KST. Final | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On June 01 2017 15:18 sc19980331 wrote: Plus Larva's league Final today: Team SKT : Best Rain sSak S2 Team STX : Last Hero Shuttle Mini 6/1. 21:00 KST. Final S K T FIGHTING! :D | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On June 01 2017 16:40 K.H.J wrote: Thank you guys calling it now KHJ is actually a huge sponsor and hes going to create the next proleague | ||
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kogeT
Poland2037 Posts
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On May 29 2017 00:19 K.H.J wrote: Team list Flash, Sea, Terror Bisu, JD, Mind Best , Rain, Briteney Last, Shuttle, Larva sSak, Hero, Horang2 Shine, Skyhigh, Movie Mong, Effort, Snow Soulkey, Organ, Guemchi It is not fixed. Team Bisu and Last are the strongest. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 05 2017 00:18 outscar wrote: SK + Piano + Guemchi best team ever! Bisu, JD and Mind looks so OP. Yeah, but this list is not fixed list. There is some possibility for something change. 1. 4 players in 1 team 2. Winners league format This two are considered now. | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On June 05 2017 00:27 K.H.J wrote: Yeah, but this list is not fixed list. There is some possibility for something change. 1. 4 players in 1 team 2. Winners league format This two are considered now. I would love to see the teams be a tad bit bigger as long as we see some other players. Not just same old, same old. Not even someone like Rush in the teams anymore. It's literally the Old Boys Clique + some viewer favorites  | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Tadah
Sweden120 Posts
Also, please make sure the players are properly insulated from the noise of the crowd by using proper booths as I am not sure the previously used setup was sufficient in this regard. If Sonic could afford them then I am sure you can too, so please look into that. Even if proper booths provided no improvements to cancelling out crowd-noise it would probably still help players (especially less seasoned ones) mentally by being "cordoned off" more from the spectating audience. I hope you take this input into consideration, thanks!  | ||
GTR
51450 Posts
also after being at the studio before and after there were booths - there is SO MUCH FUCKING SPACE to work with when the booths are removed. it's just aesthetics more than anything. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On June 05 2017 01:29 classicyellow83 wrote: Flash is saying that this one might be "winners league" style. He's super confident if it is "winners league" style. Well, if it is winner's league then yeah, he will probably all-kill majority of the teams. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On June 05 2017 01:29 classicyellow83 wrote: Flash is saying that this one might be "winners league" style. He's super confident if it is "winners league" style. oh hey you're back, wheres the may top 5 thread? | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
he find new maps which will be used in ATB 2. Also he said that Gladiator is candidate and think negative about CB. Now, he want to find some maps like Loki. | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
edit: maps like loki? probably god's garden would be a prime candidate. definitely don't want to see gladiator again, it was used in the nsl. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 05 2017 15:52 GTR wrote: hopefully they will consider using atb 2 as a map test for some of the new asl map submissions? yeah, he test some maps now. not only old OSL,MSL,Proleague maps, but also maps which made by fans. they consider all maps now. ASL4 will use remaster, so they will test something in this ATB. | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On June 05 2017 15:56 K.H.J wrote: yeah, he test some maps now. not only old OSL,MSL,Proleague maps, but also maps which made by fans. they consider all maps now. ASL4 will use remaster, so they will test something in this ATB. Triathalon pls but there are a bunch of maps submitted for ASL4 I want to see as many of them as possible. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
Perhaps BO7 where 1 game is rookie, 1 game is Ajae, 4 games are standard, and ace match is anyone (but probably not a rookie or Ajae). Or just BO5 with alternating rookie / Ajae, 3 normal matches, and ace. | ||
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Eleonora
29 Posts
Agree, although Soulkey + Guemchi won last edition. It's really nice to see Larva and Last in the same team seeing hard they are fighting on stream. Really the pinacle of current TvZ in my opinion, pretty sure Terran players won't be super happy to face Larva. And who could feel confident against Last (aside from God himself)... Side note, team Best wants to show true master race apparently (P). | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 05 2017 15:56 K.H.J wrote: yeah, he test some maps now. not only old OSL,MSL,Proleague maps, but also maps which made by fans. they consider all maps now. ASL4 will use remaster, so they will test something in this ATB. Oh snap. Do we even have dates for ASL 4/Remaster, or is it "sometime in later 2017" status? Definitely glad to see this, it's a super fun events. However, I really think teams are too small and that we need more amateur representation. 5-7 person teams with Bo5 adding in more amateurs would be much better in my opinion, assuming it works logistically. Excited either way, and much thanks KHJ for updates! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 05 2017 15:56 K.H.J wrote: yeah, he test some maps now. not only old OSL,MSL,Proleague maps, but also maps which made by fans. they consider all maps now. ASL4 will use remaster, so they will test something in this ATB. Man I love that ASL4 is using remaster, but I don't want to wait 3 months if that's how long it is until the next ASL... | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On June 06 2017 07:52 blade55555 wrote: Man I love that ASL4 is using remaster, but I don't want to wait 3 months if that's how long it is until the next ASL... I would say probably around 2-3 months since there's this team battle going on and there's usually time before and after (including time for qualifiers). | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
Blizzard and AfreecaTV's Original plan : using 1.18 in ASL3, Showcase of Remaster at ASL3 Grand final. But, as you know, it is changed now. Because of 1.18 problem, original plan is delayed now. | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
Edit Light will join team soulkey | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
But i think these 2 are 90% possibility. 1. Winners league format 2. 4 Players per team And, Team Flash has a BW camp training plan. Flash, Stork, Sea, Terror will stay together in Terror's Studio for a while. | ||
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
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IntoTheStorm
116 Posts
On June 19 2017 17:53 K.H.J wrote: And, Team Flash has a BW camp training plan. Flash, Stork, Sea, Terror will stay together in Terror's Studio for a while. I must thank you for those insights about our favorite game. Really, I enjoy such snippets of information. They always me grin stupidly. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On June 19 2017 17:53 K.H.J wrote: There is nothing decided.(Maps,version,format and so on) But i think these 2 are 90% possibility. 1. Winners league format 2. 4 Players per team And, Team Flash has a BW camp training plan. Flash, Stork, Sea, Terror will stay together in Terror's Studio for a while. Training camp sounds fun. I wonder if they will be streaming at least part of it. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
Flash, Stork, Sea, Terror -> NeOx team. They will have BW camp training. Flash said ' Bros, you will be deadman in camp. I will bring my baseball bat.' Bisu, JD, Mind, Tyson -> 3Top players + 1 Gag player Bisu said ' 4 Top players are imbalanced. We need one Gag player.' Best , Rain, Briteney, Jangbi ->4 protoss team Last, Shuttle, Larva, Mini -> They live in same city. Last said ' Shuttle, you are a driving technician. This is the reason why i chose U.' sSak, Hero, Horang2, ? Shine, Sharp, Rush, Miso -> these 3players were Shine's ASL3 Pratice partners Shine said ' i really appreciated these 3 mans. So i will make this team.' Mong, Effort, Snow, Skyhigh -> ex CJ Entus Soulkey, Organ, Guemchi, Light -> ex woongjin stars It is not fixed. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Bisu, last, mong and Soulkey are great groups overall if they do a similar format to last time. | ||
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Piste
6177 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On June 22 2017 13:12 K.H.J wrote: Team list (99% correct) Flash, Stork, Sea, Terror -> NeOx team. They will have BW camp training. Flash said ' Bros, you will be deadman in camp. I will bring my baseball bat.' Bisu, JD, Mind, Tyson -> 3Top players + 1 Gag player Bisu said ' 4 Top players are imbalanced. We need one Gag player.' Best , Rain, Briteney, Jangbi ->4 protoss team Last, Shuttle, Larva, Mini -> They live in same city. Last said ' Shuttle, you are a driving technician. This is the reason why i chose U.' sSak, Hero, Horang2, ? Shine, Sharp, Rush, Miso -> these 3players were Shine's ASL3 Pratice partners Shine said ' i really appreciated these 3 mans. So i will make this team.' Mong, Effort, Snow, Skyhigh -> ex CJ Entus Soulkey, Organ, Guemchi, Light -> ex woongjin stars It is not fixed. Shine's team is so weak. What happened to Movie? Hopefully he ends up in Ssak's team. Oh and when does the ASL team battle start? | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
On June 22 2017 13:58 BLinD-RawR wrote: team stars adding another former stars member in light who is free even | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
Movie, free, Pusan, Iris, HyuN, ggaemo are definitely gonna be missed | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
NaDa, Firebathero, Cloud, Iris, Shinee, Hiya, Leta, Bravo,...? | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I wonder if maybe Flash's statements about "revenge" made everyone not want to team up with him? (100% speculation) | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 22 2017 20:58 usopsama wrote: Stork and Terror will definitely drag Flash down. + Show Spoiler + I wonder if maybe Flash's statements about "revenge" made everyone not want to team up with him? (100% speculation) No, Flash just want funny team. When ATB season1, he already experienced strongest team. So, in this season, he made this weak and funny team. | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3440 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
On June 22 2017 20:46 PVJ wrote: Also Jaehoon, who I haven't seen since ASL anywhere. Jaehoon? I can't recall. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
Jaehoon is streaming right now. http://play.afreecatv.com/rlawogns019 | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Is he related to Failhoon? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10158 Posts
The team of Last, Shuttle, Larva, Mini is definitely an underrated team imo. My power rankings for Winner's League format: Team FlaSh Team Last Team Bisu Team SoulKey Team BeSt Team Mong Team sSak Team Shine Sadly, Shine's team is just so shit and there's no chance Shine can really carry that team. FlaSh is #1 even with a mediocre team cause FlaSh in Winner's league is like lolol. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3366 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On June 23 2017 06:49 blade55555 wrote: Hope you won't be disappointed when Flash's team gets smashed! Oh he will lol. Can't wait to see team flash get knocked out in last place | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
The FlaSh Show Unlikely Teammates Team Brotherhood of Aiur STX and God Hong Everybody who sucks (forgive me Horang2 hyung) The F Team CJ Entus Woongjin Stars People are overlooking Sea. Bisu and JD team look like they were left out and had no choice but to join each other lol. Is Shine still kicking after the finals loss? His team looks pretty meh (name and chemistry-wise) but hopefully, he/they prove me wrong. Team Protoss ftw! Last and Larva teaming up. That's GG online. They have chemistry and star power. Nice. Horang2, please get your stuff together and drag ssuck and ex-ZvP god Hero out of the mud. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 27 2017 00:18 The_Red_Viper wrote: I hope this starts soon CEO said it will start in June, but they agonize about version. And Blizzard didnt approve ATB2. AfreecaTV wait Blizzard's approval now. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hBiBOdX.png) | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
On a more on-topic note; Zeus was absolutely great in Ajae Season 2 so it's too bad he's not in any lineup either. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Dude is sick bastard. Larva vs Flash games always entertaining to watch. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
On June 27 2017 16:35 PVJ wrote: I would hate this thread to devolve into Blizz-bashing but it seems like they are really intent on making that happen. While I can understand why on a plane of theories it is a good marketing move to use a tournament to promote a new version of their game, I find it troubling that no employee in relevant departments has a humane touch to figure out how alienating their intended audience might be contraproductive to selling aforementioned new version. On a more on-topic note; Zeus was absolutely great in Ajae Season 2 so it's too bad he's not in any lineup either. The fact that Blizzard denies any SC1 just plain sucks and something like this is certainly alienating. The one time I could see eye to eye with them was when a sponsor for an event (remaining unnamed) sold stuff that broke the Blizzard EULA and so it made sense for Blizzard to say something. The argument for the importance of ATB is to highlight the second tier players and also supplement them with extra income outside of their, in some cases, less popular streams or day jobs. | ||
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M0KqVh1.png) 1. Blizzard will not support ATB. (i mean that they wont give money to this tournament) They just lend their name. 2. And Blizzard didnt aprrove ATB yet, and no reply. So AfreecaTV just waiting until now. CEO said 'Patience' 3. Their original plan is destoryed now. I cant understand why Blizzard didnt say anything. Isnt it simple problem?..umm i confused now | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
The only issue people reports nowadays (from my friend list) is mouse lagging but everything else seems smooth. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6586 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
They dont need to give money, the only thing that they can do is just saying yes | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On June 29 2017 08:08 Waxangel wrote: Hmmmm the KR post says it's not a version issue, so the organizers just aren't getting any word on tournament clearance from blizzard for whatever reason oh good, not even the reason we expected, all the more reason to get people riled up. :/ for fucks sake. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On another note, if they lower the prize pool below the $5k, atb should be able to run without their confirmation. Isn't that right? Hope they consider that route seeing as their plans are destroyed. | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On June 29 2017 12:05 BigFan wrote: I have no clue what blizzard is thinking but this is a terrible move on their part! They aren't even being asked to provide any money, just a simple confirmation! They better not be trying to hold any and all tourneys till remastered is out, that would be complete bs on their part. On another note, if they lower the prize pool below the $5k, atb should be able to run without their confirmation. Isn't that right? Hope they consider that route seeing as their plans are destroyed. Maybe they can find a loophole and pay the players like $4999 and then pay them more in some other way Blizzard makes no sense sometimes. | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
On June 29 2017 07:49 Lebesgue wrote: So what's the issue now. Why don't they approve ATB. What's the big deal about it? Are people at Blizzard just being assholes? It could just be that someone in the chain went on vacation at an inopportune time. | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
On June 29 2017 12:32 lemmata wrote: It could just be that someone in the chain went on vacation at an inopportune time. considering there is a supposed secret remastered summit happening in irvine right now, this would not surprise me. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On June 30 2017 01:31 outscar wrote: Buck Flizzard, sigh... They just need to stick with 1.16, do they need confirmation from Blizz for that? Even Sonic has been doing his leagues with more than 5k without problem before his company grew, what is this travesty. I like how in SC2 after GSL ends next season starts almost immediately but here we need to wait like months for nothing. They don't need confirmation for 1.16 itself. But they need confirmation for tournaments exceeding a certain amount of prize pool. ATB2 will certainly do so. So now Blizzard could say: Your tournament is big so you need permission and if you don't use 1.18 you will not get it. I'm not entirely sure how it works but past tournaments in SC2 have shown that tournaments with low or no prizepool don't need Blizz permission (or is it that Blizz doesn't care about small tournaments and just don't bother to 'sanction' them). | ||
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Lorch
Germany3683 Posts
Kinda reminds me of how a Sonic League (finals?) almost didn't happen because Blizzard suddenly figured that after like 8 seasons they'd also like to have a piece. /rant I just really hope that this can be resolved and ATB Season 2 can start ASAP, really miss my dose of offline BW. | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
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heluq
Spain119 Posts
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/community-competition-license.html | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On June 30 2017 04:27 supernovamaniac wrote: My guess is it has to do something with Remaster, maybe the release is around the corner? In other thread it says that the Remaster will be released on August 14th. So there is still month and a half. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
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GTR
51450 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 30 2017 14:18 GTR wrote: after remastered gets released, so after 8/15. Remastered will be released 7/30 in korea.(only PC bang) But well, ATB doesnt start until now, so maybe September? | ||
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lestye
United States4163 Posts
On June 30 2017 01:31 outscar wrote: Buck Flizzard, sigh... They just need to stick with 1.16, do they need confirmation from Blizz for that? Even Sonic has been doing his leagues with more than 5k without problem before his company grew, what is this travesty. I like how in SC2 after GSL ends next season starts almost immediately but here we need to wait like months for nothing. Yes, they'd need permission. On June 30 2017 03:48 Stax736 wrote: Why does Afreeca need permission from Blizzard to setup this tournament when SC1 is now free? Because they have to get a tournament license to broadcast and run the tournament. On June 29 2017 12:05 BigFan wrote: I have no clue what blizzard is thinking but this is a terrible move on their part! They aren't even being asked to provide any money, just a simple confirmation! They better not be trying to hold any and all tourneys till remastered is out, that would be complete bs on their part. On another note, if they lower the prize pool below the $5k, atb should be able to run without their confirmation. Isn't that right? Hope they consider that route seeing as their plans are destroyed. It's not just the prizepool its 10k for " prizes, prize money, salaries, travel and accommodation stipends or reimbursements, and appearance fees paid by organizers and sponsors to the players, teams and team owners, for participating in the competition " But thats pointless because "not exceed Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000 USD) or the equivalent for all of the events organized or hosted by you during the last 12 months pursuant to this Community Competition License;" so they'd need a license no matter what as I'm sure with the individual leagues they're way over that threshold. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 30 2017 14:26 K.H.J wrote: Remastered will be released 7/30 in korea.(only PC bang) But well, ATB doesnt start until now, so maybe September? And it's usually about what, 2 months till the final? Curious mostly because I want to organize a larger statewide/regional SC: R LAN, and think it would be nice to combine that with an ASL finals viewing party. I realize I can't get exact dates, but knowing I'm dealing with October vs December is certainly nice! | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T9jgFf2.png) CEO also cant understand this situatuon and do apologize to viewers. Only one thing we can do is just waiting... | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Obnoxious move. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On July 06 2017 05:11 L_Master wrote: So right now we're really thinking Blizzard is going to make everybody wait at least 4 weeks for release in PC Bangs before ATB2 can start? Obnoxious move. Yeah, really sucks. It could have been a lot better if they didn't touch ATB and start ASL4 with Remastered, until release ATB could've ended. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 06 2017 05:11 L_Master wrote: So right now we're really thinking Blizzard is going to make everybody wait at least 4 weeks for release in PC Bangs before ATB2 can start? Obnoxious move. Looks this way. Terrible move by Blizzard, extremely disappointing. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
ATB S2 is cancelled. Blizzard reject to approve ATB. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:13 K.H.J wrote: Official news. ATB S2 is cancelled. Blizzard reject to approve ATB. _____ Blizzard. | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:13 K.H.J wrote: Official news. ATB S2 is cancelled. Blizzard reject to approve ATB. Blizzard must have something else in the pipe if they are doing this but that sucks. Afreeca wanted to invest in Brood War scene and now I have to wonder if this will effect their and others enthusiasm about trying to host leagues. | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:33 CobaltBlu wrote: Blizzard must have something else in the pipe if they are doing this but that sucks. Afreeca wanted to invest in Brood War scene and now I have to wonder if this will effect their and others enthusiasm about trying to host leagues. I'm going to guess that this is because (supposedly) ASL4 was slated to start with SC:R if I'm not mistaken, and ATB would fill the time in between on 1.18. Basically Blizzard is now pushing the SC:R agenda over everything, or at least that's the message I get from this. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ok i was hesitant to call blizzard out, but this is just disappointing :/ Blizzard why you do this If everything here turns out to be true, as in, Blizzard is holding leagues hostage because of SC:R, I'm going to ask for a refund for my preorder. There is no excuse for this. Why is Blizzard hellbent and demolishing the competitive scenes for its own games? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Glueburn
United States496 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:13 K.H.J wrote: Official news. ATB S2 is cancelled. Blizzard reject to approve ATB. Nice. Big surprise here. Thnx Blizzard. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 06 2017 13:31 blade55555 wrote: That's so stupid. Why not allow this to go and have them switch to remastered during it or something? Grrr so stupid. First time in awhile Blizzard has made me mad. Why even required remastered? Why even required Blizzard's consent for a tournament? It's all absurd. BW got big because Blizzard didn't get involved with everything directly. Now they're trying to capitalize on an accident. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:13 K.H.J wrote: Official news. ATB S2 is cancelled. Blizzard reject to approve ATB. Blizzard, what assholes honestly. ATB2 could've come close to finishing if it already started 1-2 weeks ago like planned, just in time for remastered to come out and for ASL4 to use it. This news is just bad all around. Figured something is up with the way they never responded but hoped that there was more to it than that... | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On July 06 2017 14:02 rackdude wrote: WTF? Cancelling a tournament to force people to use a "new game" which is actually the same old game but with new graphics, but isn't even released yet? This is a new low. Pretty much the standard Blizzard procedures if you ask me. I hate Blizzard with a burning passion, not because I don't understand their actions or question their morals, but because they alone have the power to take away everything that I love about this game. You have not seen the level of their ruthlessness if you believe this to be a new low for them. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On July 06 2017 14:11 Letmelose wrote: Pretty much the standard Blizzard procedures if you ask me. I hate Blizzard with a burning passion, not because I don't understand their actions or question their morals, but because they alone have the power to take away everything that I love about this game. You have not seen the level of their ruthlessness if you believe this to be a new low for them. i agree with that soooo much. | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
PS: But take my money, please. | ||
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XERX
85 Posts
Relax Blizzard just wants them to use the newest HD for the tournament which is postponed / something else has taken its place. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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toriak
Slovakia477 Posts
yea me too people that made an amazing game in 98 are all long gone | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:13 K.H.J wrote: Official news. ATB S2 is cancelled. Blizzard reject to approve ATB. Ugh. This sucks. | ||
HaN-
France1920 Posts
The irony. | ||
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chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
I assume games like go and chess don't have to deal with shit like this because they aren't controlled by a corporation whose decisions are ultimately affected by a conflict of interest between supporting the game and increasing revenue. | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On July 06 2017 16:33 chaosTheory_14cc wrote: This is extremely frustrating. If remastered never existed does anyone think the community could or would have eventually moved over to a non-copyrighted/public domain game like OpenBW? Perhaps even beyond that, a game that functions exactly as BW does but without encroaching on Blizzards IP? I assume games like go and chess don't have to deal with shit like this because they aren't controlled by a corporation whose decisions are ultimately affected by a conflict of interest between supporting the game and increasing revenue. Plenty of top chess players have fallen out with FIDE as it happens. | ||
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raff100
498 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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NickHotS
United States105 Posts
Everyone is waiting for SC:R to drop and with that ASL4, which will be a lot more hype than ASL Team Battle S2 on old graphics. That's of course excluding the possibility Blizzard themselves have something up their sleeves. Just have some patience. I love BW as much as the next guy and am watching Afreeca streams nightly, but have some faith people. I'm not worried. Blizzard has wronged the BW scene in the past, but are doing a great job of making up for that; claiming the sky is falling because of something like this is extremely premature. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9504 Posts
On July 06 2017 17:58 NickHotS wrote: So much jumping to conclusions and worry-mongering here. So they want to manage the SC:R hype levels? Big deal. The BW tournament scene has gone unmolested since the whole SC2 fiasco. There's really nothing to worry about here. Everyone is waiting for SC:R to drop and with that ASL4, which will be a lot more hype than ASL Team Battle S2 on old graphics. That's of course excluding the possibility Blizzard themselves have something up their sleeves. Just have some patience. I love BW as much as the next guy and am watching Afreeca streams nightly, but have some faith people. I'm not worried. Blizzard has wronged the BW scene in the past, but are doing a great job of making up for that; claiming the sky is falling because of something like this is extremely premature. Yeah, I agree with this guy. This is fine. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vOOE5PK.jpg) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6586 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
On July 06 2017 17:58 NickHotS wrote: So much jumping to conclusions and worry-mongering here. So they want to manage the SC:R hype levels? Big deal. The BW tournament scene has gone unmolested since the whole SC2 fiasco. There's really nothing to worry about here. Everyone is waiting for SC:R to drop and with that ASL4, which will be a lot more hype than ASL Team Battle S2 on old graphics. That's of course excluding the possibility Blizzard themselves have something up their sleeves. Just have some patience. I love BW as much as the next guy and am watching Afreeca streams nightly, but have some faith people. I'm not worried. Blizzard has wronged the BW scene in the past, but are doing a great job of making up for that; claiming the sky is falling because of something like this is extremely premature. How would have a tourney that many were looking forward to disallow them to manage SC:R hype levels? I don't think "hype" a zero-sum game where cancelling a tourney makes the next one all that more "hype". At least for me, definitely not. So in that regard the only feeling I will have when ASL4 starts is anger. But let's put that aside and believe that Blizzard is thinking on doing something. If that is the case, I still wouldn't be happy about the way they handled it. Instead of having announced something and communicated with Afreeca, they just went mute, frustrated the organizer company, the viewers, and fans, and then let the whole tourney get cancelled while still not announcing anything in return. It's hard for me to imagine they can organise a better tourney than ATB2 would've been but even if they did, this is not the way to go. The main point is, I think no one here was jumping to conclusions or worry-mongering. We already arrived at the conclusion: ATB2 is cancelled. No one is better off for it. | ||
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ihcob
23 Posts
On July 06 2017 16:33 chaosTheory_14cc wrote: This is extremely frustrating. If remastered never existed does anyone think the community could or would have eventually moved over to a non-copyrighted/public domain game like OpenBW? Perhaps even beyond that, a game that functions exactly as BW does but without encroaching on Blizzards IP? I assume games like go and chess don't have to deal with shit like this because they aren't controlled by a corporation whose decisions are ultimately affected by a conflict of interest between supporting the game and increasing revenue. Yeah Blizzard still doesn't hold a candle to FIDE - the chess leadership is on a US sanctions list due to ties with the Assad regime, and the man in charge (Ilyumzhinov) believes chess was brought down to earth by aliens and has stated repeatedly that he himself was once abducted by aliens. His autobiography has a chapter titled 'It only takes two weeks to have a man killed.' Top 10 chess players repeatedly threaten to withdraw from top level tournaments due to the organization's management. But yeah never forget that Blizzard works for their shareholders not their players. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Levque
88 Posts
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psd
France91 Posts
Do they have to pollute everything with their greed ? | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 06 2017 17:58 NickHotS wrote: So much jumping to conclusions and worry-mongering here. So they want to manage the SC:R hype levels? Big deal. The BW tournament scene has gone unmolested since the whole SC2 fiasco. There's really nothing to worry about here. Everyone is waiting for SC:R to drop and with that ASL4, which will be a lot more hype than ASL Team Battle S2 on old graphics. That's of course excluding the possibility Blizzard themselves have something up their sleeves. Just have some patience. I love BW as much as the next guy and am watching Afreeca streams nightly, but have some faith people. I'm not worried. Blizzard has wronged the BW scene in the past, but are doing a great job of making up for that; claiming the sky is falling because of something like this is extremely premature. The problem i see is that judging from the afreeca ceo updates there simply wasn't any real conversation behind the scenes. So in the end afreeca and their sponsors had no idea what was going on, that's certainly bad. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
I'm okay with remaining calm, but whoever is in charge of the SC:R PR is making a huge mistake by not communicating with the community. Even by saying "I know this sucks, but please be patient and we promise BW tournaments will run soon". | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3440 Posts
On July 06 2017 12:13 K.H.J wrote: Official news. ATB S2 is cancelled. Blizzard reject to approve ATB. Did Blizzard even bother to give an explanation ? Still try to control over a 19 years old game ffs. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 06 2017 22:11 BisuDagger wrote: I'm okay with remaining calm, but whoever is in charge of the SC:R PR is making a huge mistake by not communicating with the community. Even by saying "I know this sucks, but please be patient and we promise BW tournaments will run soon". I think communicating with afreeca would be more important tbh. But it doesn't seem like there was any conversation going on, that part bothers me. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
Very pathetic and unnecessary. Good job. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
BJ Ginyuda will make Online ATB instead. It is not enough for ours, but this is the best in this situation. AfreecaTV will support Prize. | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On July 06 2017 23:51 K.H.J wrote: Did you remember ACL guys? BJ Ginyuda will make Online ATB instead. It is not enough for ours, but this is the best in this situation. AfreecaTV will support Prize. And they don't need approval for that? | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
From now everything blizzard - middle finger, im not going to buy a SCR or anything blizzard involved. GG | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
After Remastered is released I'm expecting a flood of events from Afreeca, SPOtv, maybe OGN and others for many months. Think of this a lull before the excitement of the Remastered events. On July 06 2017 19:38 Ansibled wrote: Blizzard has generally been supportive of ASL right? What reasons would they have to change this? To generate maximum hype by having as many Remastered events as possible post-release. The trade-off is forcing everyone to wait several weeks and not communicating to Afreeca or the community. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
It doesn't compete with the source material itself: people aren't going to not buy SC:R because they watched a tournament. In fact, it's exactly the opposite many times. The fact that Blizzard can wave a magic wand and cancel a tournament honestly seems like it's overstepping their copyright to me, and if such language is in the EULA, it should be unenforceable. The most they should be able to say is tournaments should require valid game keys for any copies used, and that they cannot present the work in a defamatory way, e.g., replacing unit quotations with Hitler quotations. Someone get Leonard French to talk about this LOL. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
Online league doesnt need approval. This is the reason why they choose online. | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
On July 06 2017 22:11 BisuDagger wrote: I'm okay with remaining calm, but whoever is in charge of the SC:R PR is making a huge mistake by not communicating with the community. Even by saying "I know this sucks, but please be patient and we promise BW tournaments will run soon". This is really my biggest gripe with the situation. It's really shitty to miss out on a tournament because they think for some reason that it will be better to have more tournaments right after release, but it's really not that long of a wait and it's not going to put a damper on the BW scene at this point. Blizzard has made many improvements with how they communicate with fans but they really don't seem to fully understand the desires of their most loyal fanbase. Sure, there are plenty of people that just hate Blizzard for past transgressions and will never get over that (and they have that right), but that just means they need to communicate all the more, even if it falls on a few deaf ears. On July 07 2017 00:01 Ancestral wrote: Can someone explain to me how tournaments aren't a simple fair use copyright issue? It's a transformative work; it uses the source material, StarCraft Broodwar, to facilitate high-level competitive multiplayer gameplay. It doesn't compete with the source material itself: people aren't going to not buy SC:R because they watched a tournament. In fact, it's exactly the opposite many times. The fact that Blizzard can wave a magic wand and cancel a tournament honestly seems like it's overstepping their copyright to me, and if such language is in the EULA, it should be unenforceable. The most they should be able to say is tournaments should require valid game keys for any copies used, and that they cannot present the work in a defamatory way, e.g., replacing unit quotations with Hitler quotations. Someone get Leonard French to talk about this LOL. This is definitely an interesting question. I don't think it's as simple as saying it's a transformative work because each game is designed to be an interactive and unique experience. And it's not an abstract set of rules like soccer, you can't play Starcraft without using their code. If we compare it to transformative works in the field of music, you have to make significant enough changes to justify something being truly your own work. How much of a video game match is truly your own work? It's hard to say. I also disagree that tournaments won't have an effect on sales. A badly organized tournament can potentially give the impression that the game isn't fit to be a sport, and you could argue that it could turn away potential customers who are interested primarily in esports. I'm not saying these are amazing and definitive points, just that this is really uncharted territory. Maybe there should be a period of time where Blizzard can exercise more control before it enters a "public domain". Most sales happen right after release anyway. I honestly don't know what the right answer is, I think this is a very interesting topic. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 06 2017 17:15 raff100 wrote: I hate Activision Blizzard Ya we know dude, still butthurt about the 15 dollars eh That being said this is pretty dumb PR, seems like it wasn't communicated very well. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On July 06 2017 23:55 _Animus_ wrote: lol, pure assholes. They didnt changed a bit, killed proscene once, for their fail sc2, now they do the same. From now everything blizzard - middle finger, im not going to buy a SCR or anything blizzard involved. GG By the way: The korean proscene killed themself. Matchfixing anyone? | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On July 07 2017 01:09 Little-Chimp wrote: Ya we know dude, still butthurt about the 15 dollars eh That being said this is pretty dumb PR, seems like it wasn't communicated very well. Can people stop bringing up the $15 like it's the crux of the issue? I have yet to hear anyone say that it is the cost of the game that is their major concern. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On July 07 2017 03:10 Heyjoray wrote: By the way: The korean proscene killed themself. Matchfixing anyone? I'm pretty sure I remember there being a BW pro scene after match fixing. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On July 07 2017 00:01 Ancestral wrote: Can someone explain to me how tournaments aren't a simple fair use copyright issue? It's a transformative work; it uses the source material, StarCraft Broodwar, to facilitate high-level competitive multiplayer gameplay. It doesn't compete with the source material itself: people aren't going to not buy SC:R because they watched a tournament. In fact, it's exactly the opposite many times. The fact that Blizzard can wave a magic wand and cancel a tournament honestly seems like it's overstepping their copyright to me, and if such language is in the EULA, it should be unenforceable. The most they should be able to say is tournaments should require valid game keys for any copies used, and that they cannot present the work in a defamatory way, e.g., replacing unit quotations with Hitler quotations. Someone get Leonard French to talk about this LOL. It's not clear that Blizzard has the rights they assert, but it is clear that Blizzard has more than enough money to bury anyone who challenges them in legal fees. So practically speaking it doesn't matter if they're correct or not. | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Dq5NWEU.gif) | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 07 2017 03:23 Jealous wrote: Can people stop bringing up the $15 like it's the crux of the issue? I have yet to hear anyone say that it is the cost of the game that is their major concern. Go on and explain the issue then dude, other than obvious bad PR by Blizzard by having their blue poster say it'd be free and not communicating with Afreeca well. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 07 2017 04:27 Little-Chimp wrote: Go on and explain the issue then dude, other than obvious bad PR by Blizzard by having their blue poster say it'd be free and not communicating with Afreeca well. Have you even read the thread title? Blizzard forbade ATB2 from occurring because they want to hype SC:R, proving they have no interest in the unfettered procession of the BW competitive scene and rather just want some of the sweet sweet cash from it's return. This thread is about ATB2. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 07 2017 04:30 Ancestral wrote: Have you even read the thread title? Blizzard forbade ATB2 from occurring because they want to hype SC:R, proving they have no interest in the unfettered procession of the BW competitive scene and rather just want some of the sweet sweet cash from it's return. This thread is about ATB2. Nice victim complex. I aknowledged that was a dumb move by blizz PR wise, even though they're trying to generate hype. Let's assume blizzard is the devil itself and killed your parents and is trying to create a strong scene with starcraft remastered JUST for money (whoah). Shouldn't we hope they succeed anyways? | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On July 07 2017 04:46 Little-Chimp wrote: Nice victim complex. I aknowledged that was a dumb move by blizz PR wise, even though they're trying to generate hype. Let's assume blizzard is the devil itself and killed your parents and is trying to create a strong scene with starcraft remastered JUST for money (whoah). Shouldn't we hope they succeed anyways? no, because blizzard would rather control 100% of a $1m scene than 49% of a $2m scene | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Total non-communication, then cancellation of the event, apparently without even an explanation (even if we all have a pretty good suspicion of what that reason is). No statement, no reasoning, just a blanket "nope, not now boyz". If they would immediately said "Hey, we are releasing SC: R in 4 weeks, can you guys start your tournament then", I wouldn't have been thrilled, but I could have understood and at least accepted that the company wants to maximize the hype and profit from their game. The lack of communication turns a irritating but understandable decision into a total fuck you type situation. What's most shocking to me though is why blizzard continues to do this. It seems like one of those things where you're only going to hurt your bottom line and fanbase going this route, whereas communicating well you're going to gain support and fan graces; which likely translates into extra publicity and more sales. All of this at the cost of one employing drafing a press release for maybe 5 minutes. All upside, no downside. Must be something about marketing I don't know though, because blizzard is far from the only company to act this way. The only good thing is that at least the BW: R dev team is pretty cool. We'd be so fucked right now if the people at Blizz making these kind of decisions were also the one making SC: R design designs | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 07 2017 04:54 gngfn wrote: no, because blizzard would rather control 100% of a $1m scene than 49% of a $2m scene What's the scene where SC Remastered doesn't exist? 50g? Anyways if this is only about blizzards questionable tourney scene control we can safely accuse them of trying to take sc2 behind the old shed as well. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On July 07 2017 04:46 Little-Chimp wrote: Nice victim complex. I aknowledged that was a dumb move by blizz PR wise, even though they're trying to generate hype. Let's assume blizzard is the devil itself and killed your parents and is trying to create a strong scene with starcraft remastered JUST for money (whoah). Shouldn't we hope they succeed anyways? Nope. Especially because of the way blizzard tries to control their scenes. They routinely make decisions that don't make for a better scene, either actively hurting the scene itself, the user experience, or both. Rushing beta's, bad interfaces (S2 BNET for a loonngggg time, etc.). In other words if what blizzard does get's more viewership for tournaments and more revenue generation, but also results in lots of potential canceled events, bad changes to the game, obnoxious restrictions, etc...that isn't necessarily worth more people watching the game. A similar argument would be if, hypothetically, blizzard knew putting in unlimited selection would increase the player-base by an order of magnitude. This would be fantastic for the scene and for making $$...but would absolutely impact the gaming experience for the worse, and it's a situation most would be unhappy worth. As a rule, a bigger scene and playerbase is a good thing; but the costs that can come with it must be weighed...and there are definitely some big potential costs that come with a blizzard overlord peeking in overhead. | ||
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lestye
United States4163 Posts
On July 07 2017 00:01 Ancestral wrote: Can someone explain to me how tournaments aren't a simple fair use copyright issue? It's a transformative work; it uses the source material, StarCraft Broodwar, to facilitate high-level competitive multiplayer gameplay. It doesn't compete with the source material itself: people aren't going to not buy SC:R because they watched a tournament. In fact, it's exactly the opposite many times. The fact that Blizzard can wave a magic wand and cancel a tournament honestly seems like it's overstepping their copyright to me, and if such language is in the EULA, it should be unenforceable. The most they should be able to say is tournaments should require valid game keys for any copies used, and that they cannot present the work in a defamatory way, e.g., replacing unit quotations with Hitler quotations. Someone get Leonard French to talk about this LOL. There is no legislative law to say its a transformative work, and there are no court rulings to say they're transformative either. And how are they overstepping their copyright? You need the owner of the IP's permission to do anything big like this tournament. That's not overstepping at all. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 07 2017 06:40 lestye wrote: There is no legislative law to say its a transformative work, and there are no court rulings to say they're transformative either. And how are they overstepping their copyright? You need the owner of the IP's permission to do anything big like this tournament. That's not overstepping at all. A legislative law huh? A law made by the process of making laws? But you're right - it comes down to a court ruling, and as far as you and I apparently know, there's no precedent. Funny Blizz didn't push the envelope on it until they were enough larger than the scene to ward off all efforts in the courts. "You need the owner of the IP's permission to do anything big like this tournament. That's not overstepping at all. " Yes, that is what Blizzard's lawyers believe to be the case. Fair use is very broad, but it may not seem like that given the wealth and power of holders of large IPs and their ability to stonewall the legal system. I'm hoping Blizzard can find a way to get what they want without causing damage, but we do have a precedent for that in which the opposite has happened. | ||
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lestye
United States4163 Posts
A legislative law huh? A law made by the process of making laws? Like, I meant specifically a law that labelled such things as creative works. It either has to be laid out by a new law, or there has to be a ruling. The act of someone's gameplay has not been recognized as transformative. Fair use is very broad, but it may not seem like that given the wealth and power of holders of large IPs and their ability to stonewall the legal system. This wouldnt be fair use though. Fair use would be taking another work and using it for commentary, search engines, criticism, parody, news reporting, research, etc. Having countless of hours of someone's IP broadcasted for entertainment is not fair use. Yes, that is what Blizzard's lawyers believe to be the case. The reason why Blizzard's lawyers believe this to be the case because that is the law. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 07 2017 09:38 lestye wrote: Like, I meant specifically a law that labelled such things as creative works. It either has to be laid out by a new law, or there has to be a ruling. The act of someone's gameplay has not been recognized as transformative. This wouldnt be fair use though. Fair use would be taking another work and using it for commentary, search engines, criticism, parody, news reporting, research, etc. Having countless of hours of someone's IP broadcasted for entertainment is not fair use. The reason why Blizzard's lawyers believe this to be the case because that is the law. "Fair use would be taking another work and using it for commentary, search engines, criticism, parody, news reporting, research, etc." You literally type "etc." in your response and then claim this in particular is not fair use. You were right originally; there has been no major court precedent settling the question definitively. Obviously, a review using video game footage would be fair use, and is far from transformative. You also put "commentary" in the list (it seems you copied the Wikipedia article, order and all, verbatim). Would commentary on the aspects of strategy and gameplay of pre-recorded match be fair use? What would obviously not be fair use is transmission of cracked binary files or source code. Blizzard owns the game assets. As you said originally, despite your recalcitrance now, whether or not Blizzard owns every second of video footage of the game generated by every player in history is not definitive. It is "the law" so far because the copyright holders have more resources than the tournament organizers. | ||
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lestye
United States4163 Posts
You literally type "etc." in your response and then claim this in particular is not fair use. You were right originally; there has been no major court precedent settling the question definitively. etc as in something along those lines. This wouldnt be along those lines. Obviously, a review using video game footage would be fair use, and is far from transformative. You also put "commentary" in the list (it seems you copied the Wikipedia article, order and all, verbatim). Would commentary on the aspects of strategy and gameplay of pre-recorded match be fair use? It'd probably be fair use to an extent, not an entire Ro28 tournament. There is also a time component to fair use. What would obviously not be fair use is transmission of cracked binary files or source code. Blizzard owns the game assets. As you said originally, despite your recalcitrance now, whether or not Blizzard owns every second of video footage of the game generated by every player in history is not definitive. As far as the law is concerned, yes. That was a huge problem in the Dota 2 scene because people with tickets who had access to replays of tournaments were able to cast over the replay and the owners of the league could not do anything directly about it because they don't own any of the assets except the voice recordings of the casters. It is "the law" so far because the copyright holders have more resources than the tournament organizers. It is the law because of the state of laws on the books. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 07 2017 10:04 lestye wrote: etc as in something along those lines. This wouldnt be along those lines. It'd probably be fair use to an extent, not an entire Ro28 tournament. There is also a time component to fair use. As far as the law is concerned, yes. That was a huge problem in the Dota 2 scene because people with tickets who had access to replays of tournaments were able to cast over the replay and the owners of the league could not do anything directly about it because they don't own any of the assets except the voice recordings of the casters. It is the law because of the state of laws on the books. I invite you to post what law you think it is that says every frame of a video game generated by anyone is under the sole ownership of the owner of the videogame. Because in that case, you cannot even record yourself playing legally, even if you don't share it with anyone. I'm not being snarky or sarcastic - I'm not familiar with the law and the specific part that states that unambiguously. So please post it, since you seem to be aware of it. | ||
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lestye
United States4163 Posts
On July 07 2017 10:08 Ancestral wrote: I invite you to post what law you think it is that says every frame of a video game generated by anyone is under the sole ownership of the owner of the videogame. Because in that case, you cannot even record yourself playing legally, even if you don't share it with anyone. I'm not being snarky or sarcastic - I'm not familiar with the law and the specific part that states that unambiguously. So please post it, since you seem to be aware of it. I'm sure you can, but broadcasting and monetizing that is a completely different issue. The CEO of Afreeca isnt recording these tournament games for his own enjoyment later. Overall my point was this, if you take a clip of you playing BW. A certain company is going to own the graphics, the artwork, the sound effects, music, sprites, UI, and all the assets that go with it. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 07 2017 10:20 lestye wrote: I'm sure you can, but broadcasting and monetizing that is a completely different issue. The CEO of Afreeca isnt recording these tournament games for his own enjoyment later. Overall my point was this, if you take a clip of you playing BW. A certain company is going to own the graphics, the artwork, the sound effects, music, sprites, UI, and all the assets that go with it. I don't want to argue on this forever, since I admit I'm not an absolute expert, and I assume you aren't either (correct me if I'm wrong). Based on my understanding of copyright law, if the company owns all assets generated with the original assets, then it would have to be illegal to have recordings of yourself, the difference being that the company wouldn't care. If, however, tons of recordings were incidentally found on your hard drive in a related case against you, they would be admissible evidence against you. The only distinction that could be made is if revenue is generated using content generated by users vs. revenue that is not. A further question, given initiatives like BWOpen, is if an original engine that perfectly emulates the mathematics and rules of BroodWar is protected under fair use, i.e., whether the rules themselves are tantamount to original IP. For example, is it illegal to stream yourself playing Dungeons and Dragons if you show no original assets whatsoever, and only use the rules? You could rename every class, race, item, and monster, but still follow the rules as far as their logical abstraction. I'm not arguing streamers should have unfettered rights to use content generated from games in any arbitrary way, I'm saying that given the lack of court precedents on many of these things and the many nuanced components, what matters most is that the copyright holders have tons of money, and streamers and tournament organizers don't, and sponsors aren't going to step in and fight legal battles on behalf of sponsored tournaments. Imagine if a nominally free small-time indie game blew up like StarCraft did, and the roles were reversed. Sponsors, tournament organizers, and players had combined billions in the bank, but the lone developer in his mom's basement failed to capitalize on it. I can only imagine he'd be comparatively hard up, even if copyright attorneys took his case up for free. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On July 07 2017 00:01 Ancestral wrote: Can someone explain to me how tournaments aren't a simple fair use copyright issue? It's a transformative work; it uses the source material, StarCraft Broodwar, to facilitate high-level competitive multiplayer gameplay. This is what KeSPA tried to go to court with against Blizzard a long time ago. The fact that they eventually dropped the case and kowtowed to Blizzard (changing their tone 180 degrees, releasing a statement that explicitly ceded all rights belong 100% to Blizzard), combined with the fact that no esports organization in the entire world has tried to challenge any publisher on the copyright to tournament broadcast, leads me to believe they have been advised by credible IP experts/lawyers that there is no chance in hell of winning such a case. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 07 2017 12:44 Waxangel wrote: This is what KeSPA tried to go to court with against Blizzard a long time ago. The fact that they eventually dropped the case and kowtowed to Blizzard (changing their tone 180 degrees, releasing a statement that explicitly ceded all rights belong 100% to Blizzard), combined with the fact that no esports organization in the entire world has tried to challenge any publisher on the copyright to tournament broadcast, leads me to believe they have been advised by credible IP experts/lawyers that there is no chance in hell of winning such a case. It doesn't lead me to believe that, because I don't read into things so much. Blizzard was far richer than KeSPA. That's a fact. And it is also a fact wealthier litigants do better, on average, concomitant with how much wealthier they are. http://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1181&context=law-review Hence, the entire comment I made, which I won't repeat as it's mere pixels above. | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On July 07 2017 12:44 Waxangel wrote: This is what KeSPA tried to go to court with against Blizzard a long time ago. The fact that they eventually dropped the case and kowtowed to Blizzard (changing their tone 180 degrees, releasing a statement that explicitly ceded all rights belong 100% to Blizzard), combined with the fact that no esports organization in the entire world has tried to challenge any publisher on the copyright to tournament broadcast, leads me to believe they have been advised by credible IP experts/lawyers that there is no chance in hell of winning such a case. There is also the possibility that the costs would be too high for KeSPA to go this route even if they could win, so they didn't try. In my limited understanding, it could be like this: KeSPA decides to file a suit against Blizzard. They consult some IP lawyer. IP lawyer's eyes bulge out of this atmosphere and explains that Blizzard would 1. Send a cease and desist right away, which KeSPA would either have to follow while fighting the case or violate while fighting the case with the potential of having to pay egregious fines later (imagine a cost/game or second televized of their leagues). 2. Hire a massive team of lawyers that would swamp KeSPA's team with paperwork forcing KeSPA to hire an equally large team to handle, something that KeSPA is ill equipped to cover in terms of hourly rates or retainers compared to Blizzard. 3. Blizzard then drags the process out as much as legally possible, incurring even further costs on KeSPA. All while potentially not broadcasting and thus losing public interest and fervor or while broadcasting and incurring more fees should they pull out of the suit. At this point if KeSPA pulls out, they would most likely be counter-sued for damages and potentially for violating the IP license if they had opted to do so. Now they have to cover a lot if not all of Blizzard's legal fees and other such expenses (hourly wage for people showing up to court, for example). These are just some possibilities, again within my limited knowledge of how it can happen on the civilian level. | ||
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lestye
United States4163 Posts
On July 07 2017 10:28 Ancestral wrote: I don't want to argue on this forever, since I admit I'm not an absolute expert, and I assume you aren't either (correct me if I'm wrong). Based on my understanding of copyright law, if the company owns all assets generated with the original assets, then it would have to be illegal to have recordings of yourself, the difference being that the company wouldn't care. If, however, tons of recordings were incidentally found on your hard drive in a related case against you, they would be admissible evidence against you. The only distinction that could be made is if revenue is generated using content generated by users vs. revenue that is not. A further question, given initiatives like BWOpen, is if an original engine that perfectly emulates the mathematics and rules of BroodWar is protected under fair use, i.e., whether the rules themselves are tantamount to original IP. For example, is it illegal to stream yourself playing Dungeons and Dragons if you show no original assets whatsoever, and only use the rules? You could rename every class, race, item, and monster, but still follow the rules as far as their logical abstraction. e. I think private recordings would be fair use. It's only when you broadcast or copy such content to the world that it matters. I think comparable examples is if you took a photograph of yourself with a bunch of coke merchandise, or viewing a movie with your family versus trying to broadcast it via the internet. Private vs public use is a big part of it as well. I don't think your examples are very relevant because at the end of the day, they want to broadcast Blizzard's IP. And if CJ Group gave up 10 years ago, then its settled. | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:06 GTR wrote: Blizzard far richer than KeSPA? You do realise that KeSPA is made up of members of some of the richest companies in the world, including Samsung, SK and Hanjin right? That doesn't mean that those backers are willing to gamble millions of dollars on what could effectively amount to the death of progaming, a limitation precedent, and little to no outright profit. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:06 GTR wrote: Blizzard far richer than KeSPA? You do realise that KeSPA is made up of members of some of the richest companies in the world, including Samsung, SK and Hanjin right? I'm sure the KeSPA members were totally ready to spend hundreds of times their teams' budgets to have their top counsel litigate a video game tournament IP case with zero implications for their actual business priorities | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:06 GTR wrote: Blizzard far richer than KeSPA? You do realise that KeSPA is made up of members of some of the richest companies in the world, including Samsung, SK and Hanjin right? KeSPA does have powerful corporate sponsorship, but they are not themselves Samsung, SKT, and Hanjin. And Blizzard has a market cap of $50 billion. It wasn't Samsung vs. Blizzard, it was KeSPA vs. Blizzard. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:32 K.H.J wrote: Well, this thread is destroyed now. Please someone give me the way how do i delete this thread. ATB is ended now. Don't worry, will close it once the discussion above finishes. | ||
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Blacksheepwall1
2 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:32 K.H.J wrote: Well, this thread is destroyed now. Please someone give me the way how do i delete this thread. ATB is ended now. Don't do that. Let everyone knows this. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
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XERX
85 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:06 GTR wrote: Blizzard far richer than KeSPA? You do realise that KeSPA is made up of members of some of the richest companies in the world, including Samsung, SK and Hanjin right? Except all those companies won't waste their time and money for Kespa. | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:06 GTR wrote: Blizzard far richer than KeSPA? You do realise that KeSPA is made up of members of some of the richest companies in the world, including Samsung, SK and Hanjin right? The strange thing is they catered to Blizzard's so called intellectual property. This is why the term limit for copyright should be like 12 years at most. And S.Korea wasn't really violating copyright. I believe the only you can violate a copyright is through illegal distribution (ie piracy). S.Korea was broadcasting legitimately bought Starcraft games. It's odd how the copyright laws are these days, that broadcasting a game is the same as illegally distributing a game. | ||
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On July 06 2017 13:23 K.H.J wrote: Well, i understand this decision. but one thing i cant understand is that why they didnt mention it earlier? Im really worried Sponsor of this ATB.(Same corp. in last season). So many fans, sponsor, AfreecaTV had been looked Blizzard's mouse for 4 weeks..... When a corporation has some government law backing them up (copyright) it's not really surprising they behave like this. This is also called corporate power. All large tech firms and video game companies will defend their so called intellectual property even if it goes against consumer interest. Why do you think Nintendo has gotten so much hate recently? How to prevent these companies from behaving this like? You get rid of their power which is copyright. I wouldn't go as far and say that copyright should be abolished, but there are a lot of things that needs to be reduced and abolished. The term limit should be like 12 years at most. The current copyright duration is a lifetime + 75 years which is unjust and actually unconstitutional (see the eighth amendment). The DMCA and international ip laws shouldn't even exist. What Blizzard is doing is clearly wrong, but copyright gives Blizzard the power to do this. I know everyone here believes in copyright because you guys are probably thinking without copyright how can content creators be rewarded for their work, but you clearly are seeing the problems when copyright is extended for far too long. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On July 07 2017 10:08 Ancestral wrote: I invite you to post what law you think it is that says every frame of a video game generated by anyone is under the sole ownership of the owner of the videogame. Because in that case, you cannot even record yourself playing legally, even if you don't share it with anyone. I'm not being snarky or sarcastic - I'm not familiar with the law and the specific part that states that unambiguously. So please post it, since you seem to be aware of it. It's got nothing to do with the fact that the game is being recorded, it's the fact they're benefitting monetarily without giving any royalties or money to the people who actually own the rights to the game. It's the same reason you don't see random channels broadcasting something like football, because channels have to pay the people who own the rights of said game to broadcast it. | ||
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NickHotS
United States105 Posts
On July 07 2017 13:06 GTR wrote: Blizzard far richer than KeSPA? You do realise that KeSPA is made up of members of some of the richest companies in the world, including Samsung, SK and Hanjin right? KeSPA is an eSports association made up by those companies, but that doesn't mean it shares their wealth. It is but a small venture for them. Yes, Blizzard is much richer and more influential than KeSPA, and can strong arm any organization infringing on their IP rights. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
7/16 7/18 7/19 7/21 : Ro8 7/25 7/26 : Ro4 Prize : 1st 5,000$ 2nd 3,000$ Team : same | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On July 07 2017 19:16 K.H.J wrote: Ginewda's Team battle 7/16 7/18 7/19 7/21 : Ro8 7/25 7/26 : Ro4 Prize : 1st 5,000$ 2nd 3,000$ Team : same Big props to Ginewda and Afreeca for setting this up with such short notice. Looking forward to the games regardless! Thank you K.H.J for these updates!! They are very much appreciated. | ||
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shizzz
Australia127 Posts
On July 07 2017 12:44 Waxangel wrote: This is what KeSPA tried to go to court with against Blizzard a long time ago. The fact that they eventually dropped the case and kowtowed to Blizzard (changing their tone 180 degrees, releasing a statement that explicitly ceded all rights belong 100% to Blizzard), combined with the fact that no esports organization in the entire world has tried to challenge any publisher on the copyright to tournament broadcast, leads me to believe they have been advised by credible IP experts/lawyers that there is no chance in hell of winning such a case. (Completely open to being corrected here) Did KeSPA ever do that though? I thought the KeSPA/Blizz court situation ended due to reaching an agreement, with Blizzard's original demands being found unreasonable and KeSPA's rights solidified (to host tournaments as they saw fit, but with a licencing fee, which is what they always wanted). | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
Can't wait to see the teams go at it. | ||
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
On July 07 2017 19:16 K.H.J wrote: Ginewda's Team battle 7/16 7/18 7/19 7/21 : Ro8 7/25 7/26 : Ro4 Prize : 1st 5,000$ 2nd 3,000$ Team : same When is the final? Or the final will be played on 7/26? Looks like this will be the last big match for classic BW, and 7/30 remaster will be released. | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On July 07 2017 21:35 shizzz wrote: (Completely open to being corrected here) Did KeSPA ever do that though? I thought the KeSPA/Blizz court situation ended due to reaching an agreement, with Blizzard's original demands being found unreasonable and KeSPA's rights solidified (to host tournaments as they saw fit, but with a licencing fee, which is what they always wanted). That and at that point Kespa gave up because of LoL. They probably did a cost and benefit analysis of using money to fight against Blizzard vs using the same money to develop LoL proscene. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
He get partnerBJ recently.(Because of ACL) CEO Kevin order him to hold this team battle. Because of Approval problem, They choose online and diminish prize pool. And this prize will be given by AfreecaTV. Final date and place are not arranged now. They want offline final, and it needs time. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
Much appreciation to those involved! | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
The more Blizzard gets their fingers in people's pies, the less people are gonna feel like making them. It's one thing for them to benefit indirectly from people loving their game, it's another to basically use people as free labour because they are monsters. | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
On July 07 2017 15:16 Qikz wrote: It's the same reason you don't see random channels broadcasting something like football, because channels have to pay the people who own the rights of said game to broadcast it. Do they have to pay to broadcast the game or do they pay to broadcast the league? I don't think traditional sports can be used as a good comparison. On a separate note, is there any difference between Let's Plays/streaming and Broadcasting a tournament? I would say tournaments are far more transformative and I would be worried about the type of precedent set for video games as a whole if Blizzard were to win such a case about IP rights and tournament broadcasting. It seems to me like legally this is a road we don't want to go down. It seems like it should be within their right to control such a thing even if it would be in their best interest to not. It would be a can of worms we wouldn't be able to close again. | ||
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BossPurple
Sweden65 Posts
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
All you who came out with "Aww how nice Blizzard are remastering Brood War, why should we be against it if the product is decent?", I point you to... exactly this kind of thing. Blizzard getting their mittens deep into the tournament scene, and screwing the fans. We had relative independence. That was valuable. Now we don't. A lot of things have failed to kill BW, but Blizzard swanning in with some funky graphics to rinse cash out out could well be what does it. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Maybe even blizzard will support the korean scene a bit. Yes it sucks that this was handled poorly, but right now it's just that. A poorly handled situation | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote: Way to overreact, why not just see what happens after the remastered launch? There are rumors of OGN creating tournaments, etc. Maybe even blizzard will support the korean scene a bit. Yes it sucks that this was handled poorly, but right now it's just that. A poorly handled situation Answer me this. Why would Blizzard stop SC tournaments of any kind from happening? It doesn't make sense, more tournaments just means more exposure to their product. If it is "Just because they can", then dick moves by them. | ||
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote: Way to overreact, why not just see what happens after the remastered launch? There are rumors of OGN creating tournaments, etc. Maybe even blizzard will support the korean scene a bit. Yes it sucks that this was handled poorly, but right now it's just that. A poorly handled situation Me, a few minutes ago: We had relative independence. That was valuable. Now we don't. | ||
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toriak
Slovakia477 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:44 RealityIsKing wrote: It doesn't make sense, more tournaments just means more exposure to their product. Maybe it is because pros dont want to play on 1.18. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 08 2017 02:03 toriak wrote: Maybe it is because pros dont want to play on 1.18. I don't think Blizzard should cancel tournaments because they use the wrong patch, or the wrong graphics, or the use Acer monitors instead of HP, or whatever. The tournament organizers did nothing wrong and Blizzard intervened merely because they for some reason think their launch will be affected. But! The scene has triumphed thanks to the energy and enthusiasm of its members. I applaud them for coming up with a consolation which will be every bit as entertaining, if slightly more of a headache. | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
On July 08 2017 02:45 Ancestral wrote: I don't think Blizzard should cancel tournaments because they use the wrong patch, or the wrong graphics, or the use Acer monitors instead of HP, or whatever. The tournament organizers did nothing wrong and Blizzard intervened merely because they for some reason think their launch will be affected. But! The scene has triumphed thanks to the energy and enthusiasm of its members. I applaud them for coming up with a consolation which will be every bit as entertaining, if slightly more of a headache. This is why I think this is a bit of an overreaction. Blizzard has done far worse to fuck the BW scene when SC2 came out. I honestly don't believe it was with malicious intent either, they are just very out of touch with a core base of their fans. Here they made a decision that they believed was important to their business interests, but BW fans have faithfully kept their game alive through sheer force of will, the game will never truly die as long as people care as much as they do. The irony is that the game will survive because fans are so passionate, so I can't tell people not to be upset or up in arms about Blizzard's actions, even if I think this situation is nothing to worry about. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:44 RealityIsKing wrote: Answer me this. Why would Blizzard stop SC tournaments of any kind from happening? It doesn't make sense, more tournaments just means more exposure to their product. If it is "Just because they can", then dick moves by them. They probably wanted to delay it until remaster was out to maximize hype. Sounds like the way they did it was sloppy though. Bad PR Oh wait I mean Blizzard hates the fans and just wants our 15 dollars bwa hahahaha haha AHAHAHA | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
On July 08 2017 03:59 Little-Chimp wrote: They probably wanted to delay it until remaster was out to maximize hype. Sounds like the way they did it was sloppy though. Bad PR Oh wait I mean Blizzard hates the fans and just wants our 15 dollars bwa hahahaha haha AHAHAHA dont know if i understand you correctly but actually yes for blizzard SC:R could turn out an insane profit, since bw sold almost 10million copies.. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 08 2017 03:59 Little-Chimp wrote: They probably wanted to delay it until remaster was out to maximize hype. Sounds like the way they did it was sloppy though. Bad PR Oh wait I mean Blizzard hates the fans and just wants our 15 dollars bwa hahahaha haha AHAHAHA Here, maybe this will help. I said it in response to your last zero-effort meme about $15, which literally no one aside from you is even talking about in this thread. Have you even read the thread title? Blizzard forbade ATB2 from occurring because they want to hype SC:R, proving they have no interest in the unfettered procession of the BW competitive scene and rather just want some of the sweet sweet cash from it's return. This thread is about ATB2. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On July 08 2017 03:59 Little-Chimp wrote: They probably wanted to delay it until remaster was out to maximize hype. Sounds like the way they did it was sloppy though. Bad PR Oh wait I mean Blizzard hates the fans and just wants our 15 dollars bwa hahahaha haha AHAHAHA I dont see what is wrong here, it is a company, it seeks above all the profits of course, it is not charity, but it'salso a fan service. And having a tournament with the best players in the world could make an incredible publicity for a counterpart that's not huge, only a small postponement. So the organizers may have more viewer (due to that) and SC: R receives an ad, it's really a win-win situation for the BW scene. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:07 Ancestral wrote: Here, maybe this will help. I said it in response to your last zero-effort meme about $15, which literally no one aside from you is even talking about in this thread. Yeah it was a joke. Basically at people's expense like you who have a severe victim complex with Blizzard because Brood War lost popularity for a while while SC2 was a big thing. As for a response to your quote, obviously Blizzard has interest in both cash and a competitive BW scene. When you work with a company like Blizzard, there's going to be positives and negatives. The positives is that tournaments will be sponsored by blizzbucks which is nice for players, and sc remastered will generate a lot of hype for these things (especially with foreigners). The negatives include sometimes having to do what they tell you and shitty things like this. I already said they managed this situation poorly by not explaining themselves. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:18 Little-Chimp wrote: Yeah it was a joke. Basically at people's expense like you who have a severe victim complex with Blizzard because Brood War lost popularity for a while while SC2 was a big thing. As for a response to your quote, obviously Blizzard has interest in both cash and a competitive BW scene. When you work with a company like Blizzard, there's going to be positives and negatives. The positives is that tournaments will be sponsored by blizzbucks which is nice for players, and sc remastered will generate a lot of hype for these things (especially with foreigners). The negatives include sometimes having to do what they tell you and shitty things like this. I already said they managed this situation poorly by not explaining themselves. Nice personal attack. I don't feel like a victim, and you got the history completely wrong. Also, Blizzard wants fees; they don't give money to tournament organizers. So, 0/3. But at least you got right that they're terrible at PR sometimes. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:24 Ancestral wrote: Nice personal attack. I don't feel like a victim, and you got the history completely wrong. Also, Blizzard wants fees; they don't give money to tournament organizers. So, 0/3. But at least you got right that they're terrible at PR sometimes. Go ahead and explain the history then (this time with actual evidence). And you sure act like a victim to me duderino. Maybe I was wrong about Blizz sponsoring tourneys though, admittedly I haven't looked into the financial aspect. I just assume they would help out like with WCS. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
Go fuck yourselves... we don't even know what/who else Blizz will screw up, it's only beginning. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:24 Ancestral wrote: Nice personal attack. I don't feel like a victim, and you got the history completely wrong. Also, Blizzard wants fees; they don't give money to tournament organizers. So, 0/3. But at least you got right that they're terrible at PR sometimes. ...you know Blizzard bankrolls multiple esports games that make zero sense from a balance sheet perspective, right? you know they've been giving the ASL money, right? | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:41 eviltomahawk wrote: I wonder if we can tweet Mike Morhaime about this. Not a bad idea, he seems like a pretty chill dude who likes Starcraft from the few interviews he's done. I imagine it'll just get ignored though. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:50 Little-Chimp wrote: Not a bad idea, he seems like a pretty chill dude who likes Starcraft from the few interviews he's done. I imagine it'll just get ignored though. He did tweet about helping out Sonic Starleague sort out one of its licensing debacles. Although this ASL Team Battle is a much smaller profile tournament, so it'll be harder to get a similar response. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 08 2017 05:03 eviltomahawk wrote: He did tweet about helping out Sonic Starleague sort out one of its licensing debacles. Although this ASL Team Battle is a much smaller profile tournament, so it'll be harder to get a similar response. That thread is pretty neat. It's like this one on steroids but 5 years ago. "Fuck blizzard!!!" And then everything turned out okay in the end | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:48 Waxangel wrote: ...you know Blizzard bankrolls multiple esports games that make zero sense from a balance sheet perspective, right? Just to be equitable, [citation needed]. Show me the balance sheets that were approved that showed negative projected profit. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On July 08 2017 06:14 Ancestral wrote: Just to be equitable, [citation needed]. Show me the balance sheets that were approved that showed negative projected profit. show us the opposite? I think to Waxs point we only need to look at Heroes of the Storms HGC, however that's an assumption. Wax works with these people and writes about them professionally, I'd say he's got a better idea than most of us. | ||
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
On July 08 2017 05:28 Little-Chimp wrote: That thread is pretty neat. It's like this one on steroids but 5 years ago. "Fuck blizzard!!!" And then everything turned out okay in the end The licensing debacle IS the bit that's not ok- that because of a big lawsuit everything has to jump through extra hoops and be at the behest of a company who are not, fundamentally about the long-term good of the scene. Further, this is the issue with losing autonomy entirely. It's not that Blizzard are evil, but that they have a different set of interests and skew the balance of power massively away from fans, players and fan-led organisations, and into the realm of corporate profit. Again, I'm not saying this is evil, it's fine for what it is, but that it's a model which has led to boom and bust in other esports such as SC2, rather than what has let Broodwar survive. Blizzard have, and can exert a level of control that we haven't seen before, concentrated in the hands of one organisation, and have greater ooportunity to profit directly from the game by orders of magnitude, I would say, than any other organisation before. | ||
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
On July 08 2017 06:50 SchAmToo wrote: show us the opposite? I think to Waxs point we only need to look at Heroes of the Storms HGC, however that's an assumption. Wax works with these people and writes about them professionally, I'd say he's got a better idea than most of us. To be fair, Wax is making a concrete claim and requires others to post solid evidence, as is his prerogative of course. If he's able to make this claim and genuinely has the connections and info to back it up, then posting at least a decent summary of how he came to know it isn't a particularly onerous or unreasonable request. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 08 2017 06:50 SchAmToo wrote: show us the opposite? I think to Waxs point we only need to look at Heroes of the Storms HGC, however that's an assumption. Wax works with these people and writes about them professionally, I'd say he's got a better idea than most of us. I respect his knowledge of privileged facts. But it's laughable to think he's privy to what the accounting department knows, even if someone from Blizzard says "you know this is a money-losing deal." I've said it already - I don't think Blizzard is evil. But I do think, in fact know, that the truth is between their PR justificatons and people who think they're totally Machiavellian. | ||
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Sd13
Vietnam185 Posts
Last time, SC2 was released for quite some time thus Blizzard put to rest the whole BW pro scene against its own will. This time, SC:R is not even released yet, and a potential Proleague in the making was canceled. Blizzard's words speak for their propaganda/marketing, but their actions show their agenda and it is eerily déjà vu. This whole time we are here due to the Koreans' magic over BW and again, Blizzard seemingly want to own it and somehow cast it itself. Like me, who have followed the game and the scene for more or less half of my life and hopefully more in the future, some people are sensitive when it comes to BW pro scene since we love to see it flourish, but we are dreaded that this is the last burst of magic there is in the Koreans and there are no next time. Let's just hope that this is but an overreaction. | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On July 08 2017 04:18 Little-Chimp wrote: Yeah it was a joke. Basically at people's expense like you who have a severe victim complex with Blizzard because Brood War lost popularity for a while while SC2 was a big thing. As for a response to your quote, obviously Blizzard has interest in both cash and a competitive BW scene. When you work with a company like Blizzard, there's going to be positives and negatives. The positives is that tournaments will be sponsored by blizzbucks which is nice for players, and sc remastered will generate a lot of hype for these things (especially with foreigners). The negatives include sometimes having to do what they tell you and shitty things like this. I already said they managed this situation poorly by not explaining themselves. SC:BW didn't popularity though. During the last full BW ProLeague, there were way more people showing up than SC2 PL ever did. And the viewership for BW was consistent in the millions for just a regular PL game in the end of Kespa era. The thing is that have Blizzard not forced all the players to switch to SC2, PL and OSL would 100% have persisted. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On July 08 2017 12:48 RealityIsKing wrote: SC:BW didn't popularity though. During the last full BW ProLeague, there were way more people showing up than SC2 PL ever did. And the viewership for BW was consistent in the millions for just a regular PL game in the end of Kespa era. The thing is that have Blizzard not forced all the players to switch to SC2, PL and OSL would 100% have persisted. From things I was able to gather, both from player/insider streams talking about old days and talking to some of them myself, popularity of BW did not correlate with the sponsorship that they were getting at that point. To quote Best, (citation: 10/19/15 stream but can't find the VOD), there were 3 sponsors waiting to sponsor Starleague, but then they all decided to not sponsor starleague after the matchfixing incident. the move was seen as moving away from BW to SC2 at the 'right time' (they solved their issues and had a chance to transfer over from BW to SC2) so that they can keep things going, i.e. sponsorship issues. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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XERX
85 Posts
On July 08 2017 13:16 supernovamaniac wrote: From things I was able to gather, both from player/insider streams talking about old days and talking to some of them myself, popularity of BW did not correlate with the sponsorship that they were getting at that point. To quote Best, (citation: 10/19/15 stream but can't find the VOD), there were 3 sponsors waiting to sponsor Starleague, but then they all decided to not sponsor starleague after the matchfixing incident. the move was seen as moving away from BW to SC2 at the 'right time' (they solved their issues and had a chance to transfer over from BW to SC2) so that they can keep things going, i.e. sponsorship issues. SNM oh shit whattup | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sdgpodH.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S1L9A3I.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qq0CoEw.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zBhUsbr.png) There are some member change. Tyson out / ggaemo in Briteney out / Hyuk in | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On July 10 2017 19:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: ahh this is online though. Yeah...this is the only way to hold tournament without Blizzard's approval. CEO command directly to BJ Ginewda. AfreecaTV consider Offline Final now. It is the reason why they cant decide final date. | ||
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james1024
118 Posts
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
On July 10 2017 19:46 K.H.J wrote: Yeah...this is the only way to hold tournament without Blizzard's approval. CEO command directly to BJ Ginewda. AfreecaTV consider Offline Final now. It is the reason why they cant decide final date. At least we will get offline final for this match like Ajae League Season 2. | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
Uzi sara Salamander Crossing field FS Gladiator Montecristo Neo Aztec | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
Also, I hope they don't mean Set 7 as the 'traditional' Ace match where two players are picked blindly for it, I hope. Would be pretty fucked up to have all-kill format for only the first 6 sets, only for a player who was killed earlier be revived just for that set. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On July 11 2017 11:10 K.H.J wrote: Maps Uzi sara Salamander Crossing field FS Gladiator Montecristo Neo Aztec nice, they are using all 3 new maps | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On July 11 2017 11:26 GTR wrote: Fuck yes, we get to see all three ASL nominee maps for this, although I question FS returning? Also, I hope they don't mean Set 7 as the 'traditional' Ace match where two players are picked blindly for it, I hope. Would be pretty fucked up to have all-kill format for only the first 6 sets, only for a player who was killed earlier be revived just for that set. They just call 7set=Ace match. It is winners format. | ||
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
On July 11 2017 11:10 K.H.J wrote: Maps Uzi sara Salamander Crossing field FS Gladiator Montecristo Neo Aztec Can you please provide those three new maps for us to download? Combine them into one zip file would be great. Many thanks | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On July 11 2017 12:56 1030xxx wrote: Can you please provide those three new maps for us to download? Combine them into one zip file would be great. Many thanks http://m.blog.naver.com/kangkuyol/221043099991 You can download maps in this blog. It is 910's official blog | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
Thank you! | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On July 11 2017 14:25 Stax736 wrote: There are two protoss players in team Ssak. I know one of them is Horang2, but who is the other one? free | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On July 11 2017 13:51 K.H.J wrote: http://m.blog.naver.com/kangkuyol/221043099991 You can download maps in this blog. It is 910's official blog Don't download my map from there. Instead use the version found here: Uzi Sara 1.21 Download page Reason for this: SCMDraft now has a brand new feature that allows us to see pathfinding. This is the first time a map editor has been able to do this and it has shown that Uzi Sara 1.2 has a ramp vortex, which produces a stack bug. Here are the pictures as evidence (credit to Freakling for finding these): Ramp vortex: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZYcN9Dp.jpg) Stack bug: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q6c1TxS.jpg) I have e-mailed 910 (ASL manager) about this, so I hope they use 1.21 unless they want to risk having a stack bug appear in the middle of a game. | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On July 11 2017 14:12 TT1 wrote: Can we get the member names for each team? I can't read Korean Thank you! Team Flash: TerrOr, Sea, Stork Team Shine: MIsO, Rush, Sharp Team Bisu: JD, Mind, ggaemo Team Soulkey: PianO, Light, GuemChi Team Last: Larva, Shuttle, Mini Team Mong: EffOrt, Snow, sKyHigh Team sSak: horang2, free, hero Team BeSt: JangBi, Rain, Hyuk | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On July 11 2017 14:54 TheNewEra wrote: Team Flash: TerrOr, Sea, Stork Team Shine: MIsO, Rush, Sharp Team Bisu: JD, Mind, ggaemo Team Soulkey: PianO, Light, GuemChi Team Last: Larva, Shuttle, Mini Team Mong: EffOrt, Snow, sKyHigh Team sSak: horang2, free, hero Team BeSt: JangBi, Rain, Hyuk ty | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
On July 11 2017 13:51 K.H.J wrote: http://m.blog.naver.com/kangkuyol/221043099991 You can download maps in this blog. It is 910's official blog Great! Thanks a lot! | ||
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HaN-
France1920 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
On July 11 2017 14:33 JungleTerrain wrote: Don't download my map from there. Instead use the version found here: Uzi Sara 1.21 Download page Reason for this: SCMDraft now has a brand new feature that allows us to see pathfinding. This is the first time a map editor has been able to do this and it has shown that Uzi Sara 1.2 has a ramp vortex, which produces a stack bug. Here are the pictures as evidence (credit to Freakling for finding these): Ramp vortex: Stack bug: I have e-mailed 910 (ASL manager) about this, so I hope they use 1.21 unless they want to risk having a stack bug appear in the middle of a game. Interesting I think this is better than dragoon stack. For the reason that you can burrow the lurkers and then unburrow one at a time. Is that so? | ||
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GTR
51450 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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GTR
51450 Posts
http://sponbbang.com/search/?search_date1=2017-05-01&search_date2=2017-07-14&bj1=전체&bj2=전체&map_id=86 | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5219 Posts
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On July 13 2017 15:13 reps)squishy wrote: Interesting I think this is better than dragoon stack. For the reason that you can burrow the lurkers and then unburrow one at a time. Is that so? If you think that will get them unstuck: Nope. Reason is that they are still sitting on a region node while overlapping unwalkable terrain. On July 13 2017 15:19 GTR wrote: pretty sure the ramp vortex can happen with any unit, not just lurkers/goons correct. But it is easiest to reproduce with Lurkers as you can create both terrain and unit overlap with them in a controlled manner: Burrow stack some Hydras, then make them all morph into Lurkers, which will not only have them all spawn stacked on top of each other but also force-create significant overlap with unwalkable minitiles through the collision box extension (Lurkers have a much bigger one than Hydras). There is nothing in particular about Dragoons that would cause them to get stacked. If you want to reproduce the bug with Protoss you need to use either resource-walking Probes or Archon Warp. I guess what makes people associate this with goons is a combination of the bug gaining most prominence through that Bisu game on FS and people having prejudice against Dragoons' pathfinding to begin with (no, the pathfinding of Dragoons is not in any way worse, or even different, from the pathfinding of any other unit in the game. They follow the same algorithm as anything else. What distinguished Dragoons is merely the slowest pre-attack animation in the game, which makes them prone to get stuck mid-it). | ||
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JacktheTerr
United States97 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9504 Posts
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HaN-
France1920 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On July 16 2017 19:20 2Pacalypse- wrote: What's the official stream for this? http://afreecatv.com/arinbbidol just look in the tournament thread | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
Or maybe a mod can add the necessary details in the OP? Btw thanks for the information guys! | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
On July 16 2017 19:06 JacktheTerr wrote: English cast??? Nope. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
Put me in, coach. If someone gives me replays or VoDs I'll cast them. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 20 2017 07:33 SchAmToo wrote: Put me in, coach. If someone gives me replays or VoDs I'll cast them. I'm casting the event live over the Korean stream if you ever want to join me ^^. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On July 20 2017 13:10 EsportsJohn wrote: I'm casting the event live over the Korean stream if you ever want to join me ^^. Yes yes yes when! | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
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