I just happened to read some post from just 1 hour ago claiming that the Almighty himself should be finishing his military service today and that he is exepected to stream some bw. This is fucking huge... in my opinion this is the single greatest addition that could happen to the post Kespa scene player pool right now
Is anyone in the position to confrirm or deny this rumor ?
On April 30 2017 10:30 Aylear wrote: JangBi's Afreeca channel is/was mycou (http://play.afreecatv.com/mycou), but it hasn't been live yet afaik. He may make a new channel for all I know. Wouldn't be the first old pro player to make a new Afreeca ID when he came back to stream.
On April 30 2017 10:36 GTR wrote: well the main page says his stream will be live 5pm tomorrow so i dont think it'll change.
On April 20 2017 14:03 LocoBolon wrote: I just happened to read some post from just 1 hour ago claiming that the Almighty himself should be finishing his military service today and that he is exepected to stream some bw. This is fucking huge... in my opinion this is the single greatest addition that could happen to the post Kespa scene player pool right now
Is anyone in the position to confrirm or deny this rumor ?
On April 20 2017 14:03 LocoBolon wrote: I just happened to read some post from just 1 hour ago claiming that the Almighty himself should be finishing his military service today and that he is exepected to stream some bw. This is fucking huge... in my opinion this is the single greatest addition that could happen to the post Kespa scene player pool right now
Is anyone in the position to confrirm or deny this rumor ?
Holy coincidence! I was about to ask about him because I looked for some vods and didn't find his fpvids, not recent ones. This is great news. I'm actually rewatching Jin Air OSL \Finals on TLDB(GOAT SITE) right now!
The other day I saw a thread people saying Best was the greatest PvTer.. Nah, Jangbi is the GOAT PvT no one comes close!
Maybe I'm wrong but the Jin Air had some horrible maps for P and IIRC he was the only P in the R24 and he still won the whole thing.
I wouldn't expect much tbh unless Jangbi decides to get serious. Last time he came around, he was knocked out of SSL by Larva 2-0 and it was sad overall. His PvP seemed good, PvZ was kinda bad, can't remember his PvT that well unfortunately.
On April 20 2017 14:23 BigFan wrote: I wouldn't expect much tbh unless Jangbi decides to get serious. Last time he came around, he was knocked out of SSL by Larva 2-0 and it was sad overall. His PvP seemed good, PvZ was kinda bad, can't remember his PvT that well unfortunately.
Yes, I remember by that time he couldn't get close to decent shape. In his defense I wanna say he was just retired from sc2 and had military service just around the corner. Maybe now that's he is done with duty, and that the whole afreeca/bw scene has better shape and there is a clear posibility of living a peaceful, easy life streaming and collecting balloons in Afreeca he will be more stimulated to work on those extravagant skills he has.
Maybe it's just me that I like this kid so much.... but I can't help to get emotionaly invested when I hear news like these.
Gogo Jangbi! show us some of that unmatched, unrealistically sexy bw you showcased before....
On April 20 2017 14:23 BigFan wrote: I wouldn't expect much tbh unless Jangbi decides to get serious. Last time he came around, he was knocked out of SSL by Larva 2-0 and it was sad overall. His PvP seemed good, PvZ was kinda bad, can't remember his PvT that well unfortunately.
Well Larva is not a joke, no shame on losing to him
On April 20 2017 14:19 mcmascote wrote: The other day I saw a thread people saying Best was the greatest PvTer.. Nah, Jangbi is the GOAT PvT no one comes close!
Agreed - peak form Jangbi was the greatest PvT player of all time.
On April 20 2017 14:19 mcmascote wrote: The other day I saw a thread people saying Best was the greatest PvTer.. Nah, Jangbi is the GOAT PvT no one comes close!
Agreed - peak form Jangbi was the greatest PvT player of all time.
peak form Jangbi the best Protoss of all time? Or is that goin too far? I can see Bisu's purists getting indignated at this very idea. I also find hard to think that theres someone else than Bisu sitting in No1 Protoss throne but peak form Jangbi was definitely something else....
Oww, such a shame he's being released from the military right after ASL has started :/ Still, looking forward to seeing him compete in the fourth season
On April 20 2017 16:35 ZiggyPG wrote: Oww, such a shame he's being released from the military right after ASL has started :/ Still, looking forward to seeing him compete in the fourth season
You know, that Jaedong was incredibly poor for the first couple of months after starting practicing? Only Stork is given ability to convert and show results immediately
On April 20 2017 16:35 ZiggyPG wrote: Oww, such a shame he's being released from the military right after ASL has started :/ Still, looking forward to seeing him compete in the fourth season
You know, that Jaedong was incredibly poor for the first couple of months after starting practicing? Only Stork is given ability to convert and show results immediately
What what. Did Stork provide some results (other than bad ones) ?
On April 20 2017 14:19 mcmascote wrote: The other day I saw a thread people saying Best was the greatest PvTer.. Nah, Jangbi is the GOAT PvT no one comes close!
Agreed - peak form Jangbi was the greatest PvT player of all time.
peak form Jangbi the best Protoss of all time? Or is that goin too far? I can see Bisu's purists getting indignated at this very idea. I also find hard to think that theres someone else than Bisu sitting in No1 Protoss throne but peak form Jangbi was definitely something else....
It's an interesting topic. I think usually when we talk about overall greatness, results and context matter, not just raw skill. But when talking about a specific matchup, it's more ok to just refer to raw skill. So, it's less controversial to say "peak Jangbi was best PvT" because it means "peak Jangbi had highest PvT skill of any player". But when we say "best Protoss player" we usually mean "very high peak skill + body of work results-wise". This framing also allows us to put older players like Nada or Oov into the "best players" discussion. After all, peak skill-wise out of Zergs, it's probably Jaedong and Effort, but you can't put Effort ahead of guys like July or Yellow (or Savior...) in the "greatest Zergs" discussion.
There is also a tendency to romanticize players whose peak skill was much higher than their average / most "common" skill. Jangbi definitely fell into this category. I think when Bisu is practicing hard and 100% on his game, his peak skill is as high as Jangbi's. For sure peak Bisu PvZ is far better than any other player's. Peak Jangbi's PvT is better. Since Bisu had bigger stretches of PvP dominance than Jangbi, I think he also had the highest peak PvP skill, though PvP is a weird matchup that's probably less dependent on the usual skill factors of BW than any other matchup, i.e. PvP is the only matchup in the game where both micro AND macro aren't *that* hard by BW standards. I suppose TvT might also fall into this category, but TvT has a unique long term strategic component. PvP is more rock papers scissor-y, but ZvZ is as well so that's not a unique feature of PvP.
But yes, I think Bisu and Jangbi are the two highest peak skill Protoss players of all time, and you wouldn't get laughed out of the room by knowledgeable fans if you said Jangbi was #1. No one else is that close. Stork is amazing in his own way because I don't think his peak skill was nearly as high as either Bisu or Jangbi, yet results-wise he's barely behind Bisu. Imagine if Stork won that MSL final against Bisu where he forgot Dragoon range in a 40 minute game 5 ... then it'd be Stork with 1 OSL 1 MSL and Bisu with 2 MSL. Wonder what we'd be saying in that universe. And no, sorry, but I don't give Jangbi's 2 OSLs the same weight because of when they happened. I "count" it as like, 1.25 OSL.
I'm a bit of a Bisu fanboy but in term of raw skill I don't think anyone is above Bisu. I never get as impressed by anyone else's fpvod. As for result, I think darktreb is forgetting proleague, which is where Bisu really showed that he is one of the best players in the world after his msl wins Hell, peak vs peak, I would put Best ahead of Stork. I think best is underrated as hell due to his lack championship.
I think there is little doubt that jangbi was in the top 3 of best protoss of all time ever since he managed to get out of Stork's shadow but I would put Best ahead of him personally.
On April 20 2017 14:19 mcmascote wrote: The other day I saw a thread people saying Best was the greatest PvTer.. Nah, Jangbi is the GOAT PvT no one comes close!
Agreed - peak form Jangbi was the greatest PvT player of all time.
peak form Jangbi the best Protoss of all time? Or is that goin too far? I can see Bisu's purists getting indignated at this very idea. I also find hard to think that theres someone else than Bisu sitting in No1 Protoss throne but peak form Jangbi was definitely something else....
Peak form Jangbi was winning OSLs which was a great achievement, but no one was calling Bisu peak form even though while Jangbi was winning OSLs, Bisu set the record for most wins in a proleague season. Jangbi in the 2010-2011 proleague season was 13 wins - 18 losses (41.94%), Bisu was 36 wins - 5 losses (87.80%). I think we can all agree Jangbi excelled at the end of his career in individual leagues, but he was terrible in proleague at the same time. This is why his peak isn't actually that great, but his achievements certainly are.
On April 22 2017 00:18 Piratezerg wrote: Jangbi and Fantasy really peaked just as Broodwar was closing down. Definitely raises the hypothetical were they the next wave to replace Flash/Bisu?
I don't think there was a zerg peaking after Jaedong though. DONG4LIFE
Killer was and did. Effort was on the return and soulkey was also separating from the pack.
Wow Stork is like zero clutch toss, Jangbi is the complete opposite. He will get to the events and qualify and navigate his way to a title, he wins when it matters. DOn't think his stream will be amazing though
On April 22 2017 00:18 Piratezerg wrote: Jangbi and Fantasy really peaked just as Broodwar was closing down. Definitely raises the hypothetical were they the next wave to replace Flash/Bisu?
Not exacly, they were from the same generation of players that Flash (Bisu was early commer in comparison to them). Fantasy started to rise around late 2008, one year later than Flash and Jangbi, but was insanely awsome in 2009 (and I would argue he was great even in his lowest point - 2010). Jangbi before earning his OSL title was considered one of the 7 dragons. Both were considered Kongs, wich in itself shows they were high quality players.
On April 25 2017 02:13 RWLabs wrote: Stork's been playing terribly, and Free has been disappointing to say the least. Hopefully Jangbi is the dragon we've all been waiting for.
I would love for JangBi to be amazing, but we do technically have BeSt who's currently waiting in the Ro16 of ASL.
On April 25 2017 02:13 RWLabs wrote: Stork's been playing terribly, and Free has been disappointing to say the least. Hopefully Jangbi is the dragon we've all been waiting for.
Free is really good, he has beaten Flash a couple of times.
just a teaser what you can expect with jangbi streaming.. an super happy uplifting guy is jangbi he is constandly smiling and laughing with chat
just skill wise he was struggling a bit in c/b ranks.. i mean he streamed for 3/4 months on and off and wasn't able to get close to his kespa era form but who knows what will happen if he wants to go full-time streamer or wants an ASL title..
Last time around Jangbi was forced to jump games right after winning an OSL and given his results in SC2 that probably wasn't a pleasant experience. I'm sure that now that the scene is bigger and he has his military service behind him, we will see the TVing OSL Jangbi again. I'll never forget that ro4 series vs Zero, or both of his final wins against Fantasy. I really can't wait to see him return in the next ASL season, truly one of my favorite Protoss of all time.
You know, it's frustrating. With JangBi returning, all of the Dragons will be currently active -- except for my favorite one.
Where is Kal? Why did he stream for a couple of weeks, show some good games and good improvement, and then leave without even trying to qualify for season 3? I would be rooting for him in every game no matter how rusty he was.
On April 25 2017 02:23 RealityIsKing wrote: I don't think Stork really cares about winning tournaments these days.
He gets enough money from streaming and I think he is too busy dating.
That's not Stork's personality. I think he really wants to show good games at least.
ye ofcourse he wants to show good games but he stated: he is focusing on being an entertaining BJ for now
He said that, sure, but after his early departure from ASL3 he's now taking a break from streaming. I think that shows just how much he cares about not just money and BJing but also being good at his game and making his fans happy. Stork's really the last person I can imagine doing something half-heartedly just for the $$$.
On April 25 2017 22:34 Aylear wrote: You know, it's frustrating. With JangBi returning, all of the Dragons will be currently active -- except for my favorite one.
Where is Kal? Why did he stream for a couple of weeks, show some good games and good improvement, and then leave without even trying to qualify for season 3? I would be rooting for him in every game no matter how rusty he was.
He streamed much more than a couple of weeks. I would say more like 4-5 months. He stopped streaming because he had some operation that went wrong and caused him considerable problems with his jaw. He could not talk properly or something? Its really a sad story. I dont know why we have not heard more about how he is doing.
On April 25 2017 22:34 Aylear wrote: You know, it's frustrating. With JangBi returning, all of the Dragons will be currently active -- except for my favorite one.
Where is Kal? Why did he stream for a couple of weeks, show some good games and good improvement, and then leave without even trying to qualify for season 3? I would be rooting for him in every game no matter how rusty he was.
He streamed much more than a couple of weeks. I would say more like 4-5 months. He stopped streaming because he had some operation that went wrong and caused him considerable problems with his jaw. He could not talk properly or something? Its really a sad story. I dont know why we have not heard more about how he is doing.
Ugh, I didn't hear anything about that. Wonder how he is doing now.
Does anyone know if successful progamers like Jangbi or July get treated differently in the army? Like they're either favored by their peers or have their gaming thrown in their face by drill sergeants or something?
On April 28 2017 04:57 Phyanketto wrote: Does anyone know if successful progamers like Jangbi or July get treated differently in the army? Like they're either favored by their peers or have their gaming thrown in their face by drill sergeants or something?
By the Army itself no. The Korean military gives no preferential treatment.
But a few players do get recognized by their fellow soldiers on occasion. NaDa said in an interview that a few soldiers discovered he was a former BW player and asked him questions about it.
On April 28 2017 04:57 Phyanketto wrote: Does anyone know if successful progamers like Jangbi or July get treated differently in the army? Like they're either favored by their peers or have their gaming thrown in their face by drill sergeants or something?
By the Army itself no. The Korean military gives no preferential treatment.
But a few players do get recognized by their fellow soldiers on occasion. NaDa said in an interview that a few soldiers discovered he was a former BW player and asked him questions about it.
Yeah, I don't mean like institutional preferential treatment, but I meant like treatment from the other soldiers in personal ways. I imagine boxer was the only one who got any special treatment, then, what with the creation of airforce Ace?
Also, do they sleep in barracks, or are they allowed to stay in their homes? What are their hours like?
On April 25 2017 22:34 Aylear wrote: You know, it's frustrating. With JangBi returning, all of the Dragons will be currently active -- except for my favorite one.
Where is Kal? Why did he stream for a couple of weeks, show some good games and good improvement, and then leave without even trying to qualify for season 3? I would be rooting for him in every game no matter how rusty he was.
He streamed much more than a couple of weeks. I would say more like 4-5 months. He stopped streaming because he had some operation that went wrong and caused him considerable problems with his jaw. He could not talk properly or something? Its really a sad story. I dont know why we have not heard more about how he is doing.
Ugh, I didn't hear anything about that. Wonder how he is doing now.
On April 28 2017 04:57 Phyanketto wrote: Does anyone know if successful progamers like Jangbi or July get treated differently in the army? Like they're either favored by their peers or have their gaming thrown in their face by drill sergeants or something?
By the Army itself no. The Korean military gives no preferential treatment.
But a few players do get recognized by their fellow soldiers on occasion. NaDa said in an interview that a few soldiers discovered he was a former BW player and asked him questions about it.
Yeah, I don't mean like institutional preferential treatment, but I meant like treatment from the other soldiers in personal ways. I imagine boxer was the only one who got any special treatment, then, what with the creation of airforce Ace?
Also, do they sleep in barracks, or are they allowed to stay in their homes? What are their hours like?
Most soldiers in korea sleep in barracks. But someone who have baby or only one man who can earn money in their family can commute from home to barracks. Most koreans go army in age 20-22. So many ex pros are too late. In exception, Fantasy and Zero are being police. (I also was a police 2 years to finish my military service ! ) But police also sleep in barracks , too. Korean military discpline is too hard, so many young man want to go police than army.
On April 28 2017 04:57 Phyanketto wrote: Does anyone know if successful progamers like Jangbi or July get treated differently in the army? Like they're either favored by their peers or have their gaming thrown in their face by drill sergeants or something?
By the Army itself no. The Korean military gives no preferential treatment.
But a few players do get recognized by their fellow soldiers on occasion. NaDa said in an interview that a few soldiers discovered he was a former BW player and asked him questions about it.
Yeah, I don't mean like institutional preferential treatment, but I meant like treatment from the other soldiers in personal ways. I imagine boxer was the only one who got any special treatment, then, what with the creation of airforce Ace?
Also, do they sleep in barracks, or are they allowed to stay in their homes? What are their hours like?
Most soldiers in korea sleep in barracks. But someone who have baby or only one man who can earn money in their family can commute from home to barracks. Most koreans go army in age 20-22. So many ex pros are too late. In exception, Fantasy and Zero are being police. (I also was a police 2 years to finish my military service ! ) But police also sleep in barracks , too. Korean military discpline is too hard, so many young man want to go police than army.
Oh wow, so are they military police, or just regular police? Thank you so much for the information, you're the best.
On April 28 2017 04:57 Phyanketto wrote: Does anyone know if successful progamers like Jangbi or July get treated differently in the army? Like they're either favored by their peers or have their gaming thrown in their face by drill sergeants or something?
By the Army itself no. The Korean military gives no preferential treatment.
But a few players do get recognized by their fellow soldiers on occasion. NaDa said in an interview that a few soldiers discovered he was a former BW player and asked him questions about it.
Yeah, I don't mean like institutional preferential treatment, but I meant like treatment from the other soldiers in personal ways. I imagine boxer was the only one who got any special treatment, then, what with the creation of airforce Ace?
Also, do they sleep in barracks, or are they allowed to stay in their homes? What are their hours like?
Most soldiers in korea sleep in barracks. But someone who have baby or only one man who can earn money in their family can commute from home to barracks. Most koreans go army in age 20-22. So many ex pros are too late. In exception, Fantasy and Zero are being police. (I also was a police 2 years to finish my military service ! ) But police also sleep in barracks , too. Korean military discpline is too hard, so many young man want to go police than army.
Oh wow, so are they military police, or just regular police? Thank you so much for the information, you're the best.
JangBi's Afreeca channel is/was mycou (http://play.afreecatv.com/mycou), but it hasn't been live yet afaik. He may make a new channel for all I know. Wouldn't be the first old pro player to make a new Afreeca ID when he came back to stream.
@some uninformed posts about Kespa days that I've seen:
Jangbi's peak was the best PvT of all time beyond doubt. Bisu, despite being the most talented toss ever imo, has never gotten his PvT beyond top 3 or maybe even top 5. Stork was always the great strategist, also helping Jangbi become who he is.
Best or Free or other dragons were not in the same league as these 3 overall..
i disagree about best, i think at his peak his pvt was at the top. he had that oov-like effect where whenever you watch him play pvt, you go - how the fuck does he have more than his opponent?
On May 05 2017 15:48 GTR wrote: i disagree about best, i think at his peak his pvt was at the top. he had that oov-like effect where whenever you watch him play pvt, you go - how the fuck does he have more than his opponent?
Best just never got tech in PvT, that's why it seemed like he had much more units.
On May 05 2017 14:18 Scrutinizer wrote: @some uninformed posts about Kespa days that I've seen:
Jangbi's peak was the best PvT of all time beyond doubt. Bisu, despite being the most talented toss ever imo, has never gotten his PvT beyond top 3 or maybe even top 5. Stork was always the great strategist, also helping Jangbi become who he is.
Best or Free or other dragons were not in the same league as these 3 overall..
bit off on the bisu part: he took out flash at his peak in major leagues just take a look at the latest statistics from spon matches having a PVT 83% win ratio crushing last 9-2 when last is considered top 2 post kespa
On May 06 2017 01:06 onlystar wrote: bit off on the bisu part: he took out flash at his peak in major leagues just take a look at the latest statistics from spon matches having a PVT 83% win ratio crushing last 9-2 when last is considered top 2 post kespa
Last's TvP is his worst matchup, its not very relevant to bring him into this discussion, i remember the weird game where guemchi thought hes playing zerg and opened forge expand and won that vs Last.
And about talent, people say Jangbi was the most talented, not Bisu. Bisu has most achievements as he puts his strenghts on top of the stage, as jangbi couldnt do that as much, out of the practice room.
yes and youre anekdote on guemchi is relevent how>? (''a weird game where he thought he as playign last as Z so that was obviously a troll match from the start... great story) guemchi took out flash in asl team league that is more relevent info btw
on lasts tvp worst mu worst is a pretty strange word to use here since he rolls easily between 70%80% win ratio tvp his tvt / tvz are usually a couple of %^higher like 3/4%
On May 06 2017 01:06 onlystar wrote: bit off on the bisu part: he took out flash at his peak in major leagues just take a look at the latest statistics from spon matches having a PVT 83% win ratio crushing last 9-2 when last is considered top 2 post kespa
Last's TvP is his worst matchup, its not very relevant to bring him into this discussion, i remember the weird game where guemchi thought hes playing zerg and opened forge expand and won that vs Last.
And about talent, people say Jangbi was the most talented, not Bisu. Bisu has most achievements as he puts his strenghts on top of the stage, as jangbi couldnt do that as much, out of the practice room.
Super subjective statement.
On May 05 2017 14:18 Scrutinizer wrote: @some uninformed posts about Kespa days that I've seen:
Jangbi's peak was the best PvT of all time beyond doubt. Bisu, despite being the most talented toss ever imo, has never gotten his PvT beyond top 3 or maybe even top 5. Stork was always the great strategist, also helping Jangbi become who he is.
Best or Free or other dragons were not in the same league as these 3 overall..
Not saying Jangbi isn't a great player here, but the way you guys talk about Bisu's PvT lol.
Bisu's record versus Terran during Jangbi's peak was equal, if not better. He was unbeatable by T in PL at the end of BW.
JangBi won series against the best two TvPers of the era: a Bo3 against Flash and two Bo5s against Fantasy. This propelled him to consecutive gold medals in the final two OSLs. Meanwhile, Bisu was losing in offline qualifiers to Roro and hyvaa.
Greatness in BW has always been measured by your ability to beat the best and win individual leagues. No one cares whether Savior had a mediocre record in Proleague. Just comparing win rates (especially including the hybrid league, wtf) leads to really skewed conclusions.
On May 06 2017 06:15 gngfn wrote: JangBi won series against the best two TvPers of the era: a Bo3 against Flash and two Bo5s against Fantasy. This propelled him to consecutive gold medals in the final two OSLs. Meanwhile, Bisu was losing in offline qualifiers to Roro and hyvaa.
Greatness in BW has always been measured by your ability to beat the best and win individual leagues. No one cares whether Savior had a mediocre record in Proleague. Just comparing win rates (especially including the hybrid league, wtf) leads to really skewed conclusions.
yes i get youre point however you can pretty much say this about any of the top 3 kespa.. what happened to bisu happened to others aswell osl/msl start of the tourney can be so unforgiving just to mention one : Horang2 who knocked out FlaSh in OSL with proxy double gates dark rush... so its quite meaningless comment in my eyes
plus i think you are underestimating proleague status, koreans would probably value team effort way above individual league results the ACE match or ALL-KILL really showed who was boss... typically belonging to FlaSh/Bisu/JD and jangbi/stork/best
as for individual league results i cant say 2gold/3silvers (Jangbi) is more impressive than bisu 5gold 2silver 1bronze but thats all to perspective one might say those 2 OSL titles mean more than 3 MSL titles and thats okay.
oh and BTW those statistics are not ''skewed' at all if you ignore hybrid league you still have a 70% winratio for Bisu PvT 2008~2011
On May 06 2017 06:15 gngfn wrote: JangBi won series against the best two TvPers of the era: a Bo3 against Flash and two Bo5s against Fantasy. This propelled him to consecutive gold medals in the final two OSLs. Meanwhile, Bisu was losing in offline qualifiers to Roro and hyvaa.
Greatness in BW has always been measured by your ability to beat the best and win individual leagues. No one cares whether Savior had a mediocre record in Proleague. Just comparing win rates (especially including the hybrid league, wtf) leads to really skewed conclusions.
yes i get youre point however you can pretty much say this about any of the top 3 kespa.. what happened to bisu happened to others aswell osl/msl start of the tourney can be so unforgiving just to mention one : Horang2 who knocked out FlaSh in OSL with proxy double gates dark rush... so its quite meaningless comment in my eyes
plus i think you are underestimating proleague status, koreans would probably value team effort way above individual league results the ACE match or ALL-KILL really showed who was boss... typically belonging to FlaSh/Bisu/JD and jangbi/stork/best
as for individual league results i cant say 2gold/3silvers (Jangbi) is more impressive than bisu 5gold 2silver 1bronze but thats all to perspective one might say those 2 OSL titles mean more than 3 MSL titles and thats okay.
oh and BTW those statistics are not ''skewed' at all if you ignore hybrid league you still have a 70% winratio for Bisu PvT 2008~2011
You're shifting the goalposts. The discussion concerned whether Bisu's peak PvT was better than JangBi's. Bisu's medals in '07 and '08 have nothing to do with that, because everyone agrees that Bisu showed his best form against Terran years later. "Koreans would value team effort" likewise has absolutely nothing to do with the question of who had the best PvT.
"Just looking at win rates leads to a skewed conclusion and also including hybrid league is dumb" != "I think you should take out hybrid league and then continue to compare win rates"
lol you realize im simply reacting to youre post right.. you brought these subjects up yourself ie: being kickedout of tournaments early, individual leagues / hybrid league which im litterly saying ignore hybrid league statistics. talking about shifting the goalposts lmao
On May 06 2017 01:06 onlystar wrote: bit off on the bisu part: he took out flash at his peak in major leagues just take a look at the latest statistics from spon matches having a PVT 83% win ratio crushing last 9-2 when last is considered top 2 post kespa
I think peak Jangbi was slightly better than peak Bisu at PvT, but Bisu deserves the edge overall for actually having great results for many years compared to Jangbi having some insanely bad periods. Bisu's PvT always felt like it could be better but that's as much due to how great he was overall as anything.
All that said, Bisu's win over Flash in the Proleague finals ace match is one of the more over-blown wins of all time. It's a shame that game was on Neo Chain Reaction, a map that was heavily Protoss favored (its predecessor map, Chain Reaction, was even more crazily Protoss favored). Neo Chain Reaction was so messed up, Flash opened with TWO in-base Barracks, not as a cheese, but because it was a necessary opener for that map in TvP.
What's more, Flash had Bisu up against the ropes in that game, but Bisu played a brilliant Zealot counter to win (hilariously, he might have been helped by losing his Cybernetics Core and thus not being able to make anything else, though he deserves all the credit for this move no matter what). Bisu deserves a ton of credit for winning the most important team match game of his life, but it's not like it proves much about his PvT. It was a single game on a heavily Protoss favored map that still could have gone either way. After all, how often do you see a TvP where Terran kills Protoss' Cybernetics Core and loses two minutes later? That's what happened in that game.
From 2010 until the end of pro BW, Bisu went 2-6 against Flash, with the wins being on Neo Chain Reaction (a Proleague map that was unfavorable enough to Terran that a Terran player was sent in only 2 out of 24 games not counting the Bisu vs Flash ace match where KT was obviously going to send Flash no matter what) and Aztec (34-18 PvT overall).
Bisu was a great PvT player, perhaps the greatest. His PvT was far from perfect, but his biggest PvT flaw was honestly just not being unparalleled in the Protoss "easy" matchup the way he was in PvZ. His record in the matchup and the "eye test" both demonstrate how great he was. But to say "took out Flash at his peak" is a misrepresentative distortion of the full context. From 2010 onward, as great as he was in PvT overall, nobody knowledgeable and sane would have bet Bisu at 1:1 odds against Flash on a balanced map.
On May 06 2017 01:06 onlystar wrote: bit off on the bisu part: he took out flash at his peak in major leagues just take a look at the latest statistics from spon matches having a PVT 83% win ratio crushing last 9-2 when last is considered top 2 post kespa
Last's TvP is his worst matchup, its not very relevant to bring him into this discussion, i remember the weird game where guemchi thought hes playing zerg and opened forge expand and won that vs Last.
And about talent, people say Jangbi was the most talented, not Bisu. Bisu has most achievements as he puts his strenghts on top of the stage, as jangbi couldnt do that as much, out of the practice room.
On May 05 2017 14:18 Scrutinizer wrote: @some uninformed posts about Kespa days that I've seen:
Jangbi's peak was the best PvT of all time beyond doubt. Bisu, despite being the most talented toss ever imo, has never gotten his PvT beyond top 3 or maybe even top 5. Stork was always the great strategist, also helping Jangbi become who he is.
Best or Free or other dragons were not in the same league as these 3 overall..
Not saying Jangbi isn't a great player here, but the way you guys talk about Bisu's PvT lol.
Bisu's record versus Terran during Jangbi's peak was equal, if not better. He was unbeatable by T in PL at the end of BW.
people say Jangbi was the most talented
Seems you have not enough information on this topic so yes that seems very subjective. By people i mean progamers who have said jangbi is beast when they face him in practice games and have insane win rates vs top players. Stork said numerous times Jangbi is best protoss on KHAN, and need to channel that skill properly on stage.
I also heard about pro gamers, in those times, saying that jangbi was the best player of samsung when it came to practice games. But I can't remember where did I hear/read that, so I am compelled to put it on the "rumours" bag... unless... K.H.J. ? ever heard of that rumour?
You don't need numbers, you just need to understand the match up to realize Jangbi's PvT is considerably better than Bisu's. Jangbi wasn't as solid as Bisu and he'd go on some big slumps, losing his confidence and dropping games he should've won thus effecting his stats but overal he had a better PvT.
I'll jump to the late game tactics of PvT because there I think (hopefully) that there isn't any argument against what I'm going to say: If things are kinda equal (upgrades, economy, etc) There are only three main equalizers for toss in a 200/200 vs 200/200 PvT battle.
1 - Carriers. 2 - HTs on a shuttle. 3 - Arbiters. If you are not using these options, you depend on catching T unsieged doing something else. Then you can form an arch and destroy the army, but that doesn't really depend on the Toss.
(I guess using Hts to hallucinate 100 zealots could help as well)
Bisu is a mediocre programmer using the first two options. JangBi is outstanding with the first two, best of the best. He followed Stork's steps and made it even better. Airbiter usage is a toss uo. Almost every great toss is as good as it can get with Arbiters.
That deficiency in the late game is what leads to Bisu's poor record against Flash since Flash perfect his PvT build. The 'anti-evertything' build. He's 2-7 against flash in their last 9 games since Flash perfected his 'Flash Build'. Also, someone already said this here: Those two wins against flash came with him building a gate outside his main and going for zea's harass to disrupt Flash's economy and timing.
I'm a huge fan of Bisu that's why I want to see him face Flash in the ASL3 finals to see what he prepared for Flash of if he'll stick to his usual play. Hopefully he brings something new.
Bisu PvZ's is much better than JangBi's. PvP is also in favor of Bisu, but you gotta concede JangBi's PvT is considerably better.
PS. If necessary we can also debate the early game play of both. Zea's harrass goes to Bisu but the rest goes to JangBi. Defensive reaver play also goes to JangBi. Dealing with timing pushes after FE is also one of Bisu's weakness (compared to JangBi) to the point he allows Ts to sometimes take the 3rd before him because he wants to be safe teching to arbs really fast. (works against mots Ts but not against Flash).
okey.. you're really taking a stretch on those statistics first of all last 9 games is stats are 6-3 for Flash not 7-2 secondly if u look further back thats where bisu won a chunk of games vs flash youre ignoring this because thats when ''FlaSH perfected his anti-everything build'' not so much true the monster flash TVP was up and running way before that. overall those stats between bisu and flash are 50/50ish and that is a damn good accomplishment for bisu, i could than go on to say something silly like jangbi is 3-5 in his last 8 games vs flash but truth is he also hits around 50/50 vs flash which is damn good.
What Bisu did outstanding vs FlaSh and showed his genuiz feel for PvT was that in alot of the games he faced FlaSh he was able to find weak spots in FlaSh perfect play its something he will mention in interviews and so on its common knowledge i think.
''bisu was mediocre progamer using the first two options'' in PvT bisu almost never used carrier so if that makes him bad at it.. ? HT in a shuttle is something you will see commonly used by bisu..
also im just not really into digging into those 7 or 8 matches in the past and mentioning details about those particular matches.. because hey we have the incredible times in BW post kespa with FlaSh and Bisu & JangBi streaming LIVE
i did prefer to say something about the encounters i have seen between Bisu & Flash thus far (it has been a BLAST every time they go to battle boy nerdchills)
obviously, in Post Kespa encounters FlaSh has the upper hand (tipping the win ratio into his favour)however Bisu showed recently he can overcome FlaSh in a heavy harassment style of play 2 base reaver into shuttle HT/ into hallucination on Arbiter Recalls the results showing in last months afreeca SPON matches stats (83%) vs T. But of course FlaSh win the majority of the games with impeccable play flawless punishing in the late game (remembering some games with the china carnival ? and on andromedia where FlaSh 3-3 was unstoppable even when Bisu owned 70% of the map.. also Bisu surprised every progamer/fan with an amazing 2gate carrier harassment style on afreeca +/- 2years ago he would rush over with the first 2 carriers towards terrans 3rd gas expo +1shuttle 4zeals he would unload the shuttle and suddenly he would take out alot of turrents/gas mining/ and even gols he has been extremely successful with this build on afreeca and was not seen before in this fashion. (so to cover the where you might doubt bisus carrier play, actually Bisu is great with carriers)
but i think this is typicall for Bisu to have ups and downs in his PVT matchup sometimes some harassment just doesnt pays off or his build is maybe to tech heavy (where Best and Jangbi would play more macro high unit numbers) and he is punished in a PvT with some 2-1 /3-2 timing or well FlaSh look like he can punish at anytime if u slack a little bit.
so you notice how im not looking for ways to critizice JangBi TvP i believe that its just a large chunk of the BW Fans dont understand Bisu PvT all that much or misuderstand it at least. and from the foreign community Bisus PvT doesnt get the respect it should earn
maybe you will have to be a true TVP nutjob like me to see the genuiz in it (im following ALL FlaSh TVPs since he is on Afreeca, and most of bisus TvPs vs top post kespa (and also for a long while almost all Last's TvPs ever since he started streaming) and always see all Bisu vs Last mu soon adding Jangbi vs FlaSh/Last) (and ofcourse also watched proleague /msl,osl etc from 2002 till catastrofic hybrid league)
Lols, people are basically saying Bisu is the best PvT player ever in spite of not being 100% perfect. Yet other Bisu fans are still managing to take offense. This is where Bisu fan stereotypes come from =P.
Bisu is a phenomenal multitasker whose strengths lie in grinding out advantage through continuous harass and creating chaotic games. He's not as good as Jangbi or Stork at picking fights in late game situations though, and his Carrier usage has always been imperfect.
Basically, Bisu's PvT precision has always been a tier below the very best of all time (which is NOT an insult, so relax ... this is not that different than saying Light's late late game mega SK Terran control was better than Flash's back in the Kespa era. Doesn't mean Light was better overall at TvZ).
But Bisu's multitasking and harass is nearly unparalleled. That's why he kept winning games against Flash on Destination, a pretty good map for TvP, back in 2009. When Bisu can make the game "sloppy", not even Flash can keep up sometimes. No other Protoss can play this way as effectively. Similarly, Jangbi will win games no one else would've won because he can win battles no one else can.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img.dailygame.co.kr/news/201109/attachments/20110909_7c53b6903ebe1b015dfbf051d50ac9ce.jpg)
should be finishing his military service today and that he is exepected to stream some bw. 
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