EPTJangbi finishing military / streaming - Page 6
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On May 06 2017 01:06 onlystar wrote: bit off on the bisu part: he took out flash at his peak in major leagues just take a look at the latest statistics from spon matches having a PVT 83% win ratio crushing last 9-2 when last is considered top 2 post kespa Last's TvP is his worst matchup, its not very relevant to bring him into this discussion, i remember the weird game where guemchi thought hes playing zerg and opened forge expand and won that vs Last. And about talent, people say Jangbi was the most talented, not Bisu. Bisu has most achievements as he puts his strenghts on top of the stage, as jangbi couldnt do that as much, out of the practice room. | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
 on lasts tvp worst mu worst is a pretty strange word to use here since he rolls easily between 70%80% win ratio tvp his tvt / tvz are usually a couple of %^higher like 3/4% | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
On May 06 2017 01:48 ortseam wrote: Progamers actually say his TvP is stronger than his TvZ i would agree with that | ||
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BossPurple
Sweden65 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19321 Posts
On May 06 2017 01:21 _Animus_ wrote: Last's TvP is his worst matchup, its not very relevant to bring him into this discussion, i remember the weird game where guemchi thought hes playing zerg and opened forge expand and won that vs Last. And about talent, people say Jangbi was the most talented, not Bisu. Bisu has most achievements as he puts his strenghts on top of the stage, as jangbi couldnt do that as much, out of the practice room. Super subjective statement. On May 05 2017 14:18 Scrutinizer wrote: @some uninformed posts about Kespa days that I've seen: Jangbi's peak was the best PvT of all time beyond doubt. Bisu, despite being the most talented toss ever imo, has never gotten his PvT beyond top 3 or maybe even top 5. Stork was always the great strategist, also helping Jangbi become who he is. Best or Free or other dragons were not in the same league as these 3 overall.. Not saying Jangbi isn't a great player here, but the way you guys talk about Bisu's PvT lol. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RNLOX8i.png) Bisu's record versus Terran during Jangbi's peak was equal, if not better. He was unbeatable by T in PL at the end of BW. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/svHyzhi.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HLhTY4p.png) | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
Greatness in BW has always been measured by your ability to beat the best and win individual leagues. No one cares whether Savior had a mediocre record in Proleague. Just comparing win rates (especially including the hybrid league, wtf) leads to really skewed conclusions. | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
On May 06 2017 06:15 gngfn wrote: JangBi won series against the best two TvPers of the era: a Bo3 against Flash and two Bo5s against Fantasy. This propelled him to consecutive gold medals in the final two OSLs. Meanwhile, Bisu was losing in offline qualifiers to Roro and hyvaa. Greatness in BW has always been measured by your ability to beat the best and win individual leagues. No one cares whether Savior had a mediocre record in Proleague. Just comparing win rates (especially including the hybrid league, wtf) leads to really skewed conclusions. yes i get youre point however you can pretty much say this about any of the top 3 kespa.. what happened to bisu happened to others aswell osl/msl start of the tourney can be so unforgiving just to mention one : Horang2 who knocked out FlaSh in OSL with proxy double gates dark rush... so its quite meaningless comment in my eyes plus i think you are underestimating proleague status, koreans would probably value team effort way above individual league results the ACE match or ALL-KILL really showed who was boss... typically belonging to FlaSh/Bisu/JD and jangbi/stork/best as for individual league results i cant say 2gold/3silvers (Jangbi) is more impressive than bisu 5gold 2silver 1bronze but thats all to perspective one might say those 2 OSL titles mean more than 3 MSL titles and thats okay. oh and BTW those statistics are not ''skewed' at all if you ignore hybrid league you still have a 70% winratio for Bisu PvT 2008~2011 | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On May 06 2017 06:25 onlystar wrote: yes i get youre point however you can pretty much say this about any of the top 3 kespa.. what happened to bisu happened to others aswell osl/msl start of the tourney can be so unforgiving just to mention one : Horang2 who knocked out FlaSh in OSL with proxy double gates dark rush... so its quite meaningless comment in my eyes plus i think you are underestimating proleague status, koreans would probably value team effort way above individual league results the ACE match or ALL-KILL really showed who was boss... typically belonging to FlaSh/Bisu/JD and jangbi/stork/best as for individual league results i cant say 2gold/3silvers (Jangbi) is more impressive than bisu 5gold 2silver 1bronze but thats all to perspective one might say those 2 OSL titles mean more than 3 MSL titles and thats okay. oh and BTW those statistics are not ''skewed' at all if you ignore hybrid league you still have a 70% winratio for Bisu PvT 2008~2011 You're shifting the goalposts. The discussion concerned whether Bisu's peak PvT was better than JangBi's. Bisu's medals in '07 and '08 have nothing to do with that, because everyone agrees that Bisu showed his best form against Terran years later. "Koreans would value team effort" likewise has absolutely nothing to do with the question of who had the best PvT. "Just looking at win rates leads to a skewed conclusion and also including hybrid league is dumb" != "I think you should take out hybrid league and then continue to compare win rates" | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
ie: being kickedout of tournaments early, individual leagues / hybrid league which im litterly saying ignore hybrid league statistics. talking about shifting the goalposts lmao | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On May 06 2017 01:06 onlystar wrote: bit off on the bisu part: he took out flash at his peak in major leagues just take a look at the latest statistics from spon matches having a PVT 83% win ratio crushing last 9-2 when last is considered top 2 post kespa I think peak Jangbi was slightly better than peak Bisu at PvT, but Bisu deserves the edge overall for actually having great results for many years compared to Jangbi having some insanely bad periods. Bisu's PvT always felt like it could be better but that's as much due to how great he was overall as anything. All that said, Bisu's win over Flash in the Proleague finals ace match is one of the more over-blown wins of all time. It's a shame that game was on Neo Chain Reaction, a map that was heavily Protoss favored (its predecessor map, Chain Reaction, was even more crazily Protoss favored). Neo Chain Reaction was so messed up, Flash opened with TWO in-base Barracks, not as a cheese, but because it was a necessary opener for that map in TvP. What's more, Flash had Bisu up against the ropes in that game, but Bisu played a brilliant Zealot counter to win (hilariously, he might have been helped by losing his Cybernetics Core and thus not being able to make anything else, though he deserves all the credit for this move no matter what). Bisu deserves a ton of credit for winning the most important team match game of his life, but it's not like it proves much about his PvT. It was a single game on a heavily Protoss favored map that still could have gone either way. After all, how often do you see a TvP where Terran kills Protoss' Cybernetics Core and loses two minutes later? That's what happened in that game. From 2010 until the end of pro BW, Bisu went 2-6 against Flash, with the wins being on Neo Chain Reaction (a Proleague map that was unfavorable enough to Terran that a Terran player was sent in only 2 out of 24 games not counting the Bisu vs Flash ace match where KT was obviously going to send Flash no matter what) and Aztec (34-18 PvT overall). Bisu was a great PvT player, perhaps the greatest. His PvT was far from perfect, but his biggest PvT flaw was honestly just not being unparalleled in the Protoss "easy" matchup the way he was in PvZ. His record in the matchup and the "eye test" both demonstrate how great he was. But to say "took out Flash at his peak" is a misrepresentative distortion of the full context. From 2010 onward, as great as he was in PvT overall, nobody knowledgeable and sane would have bet Bisu at 1:1 odds against Flash on a balanced map. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On May 06 2017 02:45 BisuDagger wrote: Super subjective statement. Not saying Jangbi isn't a great player here, but the way you guys talk about Bisu's PvT lol. Bisu's record versus Terran during Jangbi's peak was equal, if not better. He was unbeatable by T in PL at the end of BW. people say Jangbi was the most talented Seems you have not enough information on this topic so yes that seems very subjective. By people i mean progamers who have said jangbi is beast when they face him in practice games and have insane win rates vs top players. Stork said numerous times Jangbi is best protoss on KHAN, and need to channel that skill properly on stage. | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina244 Posts
? ever heard of that rumour? | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
I'll jump to the late game tactics of PvT because there I think (hopefully) that there isn't any argument against what I'm going to say: If things are kinda equal (upgrades, economy, etc) There are only three main equalizers for toss in a 200/200 vs 200/200 PvT battle. 1 - Carriers. 2 - HTs on a shuttle. 3 - Arbiters. If you are not using these options, you depend on catching T unsieged doing something else. Then you can form an arch and destroy the army, but that doesn't really depend on the Toss. (I guess using Hts to hallucinate 100 zealots could help as well) Bisu is a mediocre programmer using the first two options. JangBi is outstanding with the first two, best of the best. He followed Stork's steps and made it even better. Airbiter usage is a toss uo. Almost every great toss is as good as it can get with Arbiters. That deficiency in the late game is what leads to Bisu's poor record against Flash since Flash perfect his PvT build. The 'anti-evertything' build. He's 2-7 against flash in their last 9 games since Flash perfected his 'Flash Build'. Also, someone already said this here: Those two wins against flash came with him building a gate outside his main and going for zea's harass to disrupt Flash's economy and timing. I'm a huge fan of Bisu that's why I want to see him face Flash in the ASL3 finals to see what he prepared for Flash of if he'll stick to his usual play. Hopefully he brings something new. Bisu PvZ's is much better than JangBi's. PvP is also in favor of Bisu, but you gotta concede JangBi's PvT is considerably better. PS. If necessary we can also debate the early game play of both. Zea's harrass goes to Bisu but the rest goes to JangBi. Defensive reaver play also goes to JangBi. Dealing with timing pushes after FE is also one of Bisu's weakness (compared to JangBi) to the point he allows Ts to sometimes take the 3rd before him because he wants to be safe teching to arbs really fast. (works against mots Ts but not against Flash). | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
secondly if u look further back thats where bisu won a chunk of games vs flash youre ignoring this because thats when ''FlaSH perfected his anti-everything build'' not so much true the monster flash TVP was up and running way before that. overall those stats between bisu and flash are 50/50ish and that is a damn good accomplishment for bisu, i could than go on to say something silly like jangbi is 3-5 in his last 8 games vs flash but truth is he also hits around 50/50 vs flash which is damn good. What Bisu did outstanding vs FlaSh and showed his genuiz feel for PvT was that in alot of the games he faced FlaSh he was able to find weak spots in FlaSh perfect play its something he will mention in interviews and so on its common knowledge i think. ''bisu was mediocre progamer using the first two options'' in PvT bisu almost never used carrier so if that makes him bad at it.. ? HT in a shuttle is something you will see commonly used by bisu.. also im just not really into digging into those 7 or 8 matches in the past and mentioning details about those particular matches.. because hey we have the incredible times in BW post kespa with FlaSh and Bisu & JangBi streaming LIVE i did prefer to say something about the encounters i have seen between Bisu & Flash thus far (it has been a BLAST every time they go to battle boy nerdchills) obviously, in Post Kespa encounters FlaSh has the upper hand (tipping the win ratio into his favour)however Bisu showed recently he can overcome FlaSh in a heavy harassment style of play 2 base reaver into shuttle HT/ into hallucination on Arbiter Recalls the results showing in last months afreeca SPON matches stats (83%) vs T. But of course FlaSh win the majority of the games with impeccable play flawless punishing in the late game (remembering some games with the china carnival ? and on andromedia where FlaSh 3-3 was unstoppable even when Bisu owned 70% of the map.. also Bisu surprised every progamer/fan with an amazing 2gate carrier harassment style on afreeca +/- 2years ago he would rush over with the first 2 carriers towards terrans 3rd gas expo +1shuttle 4zeals he would unload the shuttle and suddenly he would take out alot of turrents/gas mining/ and even gols he has been extremely successful with this build on afreeca and was not seen before in this fashion. (so to cover the where you might doubt bisus carrier play, actually Bisu is great with carriers) but i think this is typicall for Bisu to have ups and downs in his PVT matchup sometimes some harassment just doesnt pays off or his build is maybe to tech heavy (where Best and Jangbi would play more macro high unit numbers) and he is punished in a PvT with some 2-1 /3-2 timing or well FlaSh look like he can punish at anytime if u slack a little bit. so you notice how im not looking for ways to critizice JangBi TvP i believe that its just a large chunk of the BW Fans dont understand Bisu PvT all that much or misuderstand it at least. and from the foreign community Bisus PvT doesnt get the respect it should earn maybe you will have to be a true TVP nutjob like me to see the genuiz in it (im following ALL FlaSh TVPs since he is on Afreeca, and most of bisus TvPs vs top post kespa (and also for a long while almost all Last's TvPs ever since he started streaming) and always see all Bisu vs Last mu soon adding Jangbi vs FlaSh/Last) (and ofcourse also watched proleague /msl,osl etc from 2002 till catastrofic hybrid league) | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Miragee
8655 Posts
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
Bisu is a phenomenal multitasker whose strengths lie in grinding out advantage through continuous harass and creating chaotic games. He's not as good as Jangbi or Stork at picking fights in late game situations though, and his Carrier usage has always been imperfect. Basically, Bisu's PvT precision has always been a tier below the very best of all time (which is NOT an insult, so relax ... this is not that different than saying Light's late late game mega SK Terran control was better than Flash's back in the Kespa era. Doesn't mean Light was better overall at TvZ). But Bisu's multitasking and harass is nearly unparalleled. That's why he kept winning games against Flash on Destination, a pretty good map for TvP, back in 2009. When Bisu can make the game "sloppy", not even Flash can keep up sometimes. No other Protoss can play this way as effectively. Similarly, Jangbi will win games no one else would've won because he can win battles no one else can. | ||
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