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On February 07 2017 12:33 Terrorbladder wrote:
Terran is the hardest race because they consist of 100% ranged units which require the most micro to be effective.
The hell? Zerglings are some of the most micro intensive units in the game. Especially since they have to overcome the intricate pathing algorithms of BW which ranged units can partially sidestep by not having to move all the way up to the unit they want to attack.
Try a-moving 12 marines and a-moving 16 zerglings against eachother. The lings will stumble upon eachother and the marines will murder them. Now try microing the lings so they get good angles and contact area. Suddenly the lings win.
I'm not even debating your main point that Terran is a hard race, because it is. But it's not because they have "ranged units", lol.
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I think Bisu is on hard training mode. He's been on Fish everyday, but not streaming. Hopefully he gets his form back soon.
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On February 07 2017 19:55 classicyellow83 wrote:
I think Bisu is on hard training mode. He's been on Fish everyday, but not streaming. Hopefully he gets his form back soon.
That's awesome that he's willing to forgo streaming money for a while in order to focus 100% on training. I really respect that.
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On February 07 2017 19:55 classicyellow83 wrote:
I think Bisu is on hard training mode. He's been on Fish everyday, but not streaming. Hopefully he gets his form back soon.
I guess getting humiliated by Sea like that was a wakeup call.
But then again, getting spanked hard by Hero in the SSL11 Final was also a wakeup call... and that was awhile ago. 
Bisu seems to have devolved into that kind of player who looks good right up until he plays someone good in a high-pressure series... and then he gets demolished.
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On February 05 2017 05:50 JungleTerrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2017 04:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:It would of course also be nice if Bliz did something on the unit stats side of things, but I'm not hopeful there. Probably the only balance change we'll ever see out of 'em is if they fix the valk sprite bug... which isn't a 'true' balance change, but would act like one in some situations, since valks firing is obviously a huge upgrade in effectiveness over not firing.  But technically, it'd just be a bug fix. If you really wanted to try out just unit stat changes, you can literally just make a UMS map that plays as a Melee or 1v1 map, and change the stats of whatever units you want. I know before people also had some discussion on starting queen energy or w/e, this can also possibly be mimicked in a UMS map, possibly using locations centered on queens with certain conditions, some hyper triggers to make it run smoothly, or maybe just changing the max energy on units so that they start at the same percentage of total energy, but at a higher numerical value of energy. Of course that would allow units to hold way more spells for broodling, ensnare, etc. so might not be indicative of balance. Anyways, this is a way you can see what increasing mutalisk damage to 10 instead of 9 would mean, or maybe giving lings an extra 3 hp, or even adjusting build times. My point is, you can mimic what a blizzard balance patch would look like. On top of that, you can make the map an observer/player map so people can watch. I have an unprotected version of Fighting Spirit, and I could do something with that. Idk could be fun!
It could be kinda fun, but the problem (beyond that, IIRC, the UMS editor can't make all the kinds of changes you might want or need to make, such as say spell effects, splash radius, cooldown, attack range, etc), is that everyone has a different idea of what a patch should have in it. Except for the ppl who think *any* patch is heresy, of course.
So, whose patch gets tested? Yours? Mine? NeoBowman's? Any of 1000 other people's? And would there be the resources needed to playtest it thoroughly enough? Does anyone know any Korean pros who'd be willing to test? And why should they listen to anyone on TL? IOW, it doesn't really get us too far... Bliz would have to do it, they have the resources, they have the legitimacy (sort of... the SC2 balancing process kinda put a question mark on that).
Though I guess it could still be a fun thing on the side for a few interested players to do. Who knows, with enough time and effort, maybe they could come up with something that significantly betters 1.08 balance... at least for the level of player who would be playtesting such a patch.
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Terran produces the least HP per supply on average, according to unit stats. Zerg actually produces the most. Even the Zerg's most basic attacking unit, the Zergling, is actually 70 HP for 1 supply.
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On February 07 2017 21:28 Terrorbladder wrote:
Terran produces the least HP per supply on average, according to unit stats. Zerg actually produces the most.
Any reason why we should be looking at that stat in particular? What about DPS per cost? Seems random.
Even the Zerg's most basic attacking unit, the Zergling, is actually 70 HP for 1 supply.
Which puts Zerg in ... second place after Protoss?
I don't think the races are comparable in this way. How could you account for, say, Medics, Lurkers, or Reavers?
EDIT: Agreed with FlashFTW on experimenting with resource allocation. Isn't Outsider a pretty balanced map? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember its balance stats to be at least as good as those of the infinitely played maps (Python, FS, CB), and its resource layout is pretty original. It's also a super entertaining map. To test and refine such ideas is good for BW's long-term health IMO.
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Is there a way for someone who isn't able to speak/read korean to find these statistics on that site? I mean as long as i have the post in korean i can figure out players, etc myself. Getting there is the hard part though i think :D
I appreciate your monthly posts a lot but sometimes i wanna be more up to date i guess. Thanks for any help!
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This response was mostly prompted by terrorbladder's post:
I'm currently playing both zerg and terran and feel terran is easier to learn (ZvT vs TvZ), and easier to win games with. Here's a detailed list of why I think this is the case (for me):
====DISCLAIMER: Not at all talking about BALANCE herel. I'm detailing my personal experience!====
* Terran's economy is very streamlined. You keep pressing 5s, 6s until you have 45 or so SCVs and then you add some more if you want to get a 3rd, which is not even a necessity.
* Terran's defense on a map like Fighting Spirit is considerably easier in the early stages of the game. Placing a supply depot at your natural, can already prevent any zergling all-in as long as you stay on your toes (i.e. don't lose your entire marine force outside your natural to 36 lings).
* Terran's macro is more streamlined. Going back to one location (saved on a location hotkey) that fits all of your barracks, factory and starport and produce units from comes more naturally than macroing from 3 locations (main - natural - third).
* Terran often has the momentum in the game. It's just the way the match-up goes. Terran moves out towards zerg's natural, zerg has to respond and build sunkens. Terran moves out to zerg's third, zerg has to have his lurkers in place. Terran comes with vessels and tanks, zerg needs to have his defiler. Terran's dropships are at the edges of zerg's bases, zerg has to have scourge ready and respond immediately.
There's more risk for zerg involved here as it's happening on the zerg's doorstep. If zerg responds appropriately and terran slips up, terran has lost some momentum that's for sure, but he doesn't take as much damage as when zerg would slip up.
* There's a lot of effective terran build orders and no way to identify which one the terran's doing. Terran can, with proper micro, have an SCV in zerg's base for quite some time. Terran has scans to check whether zerg's going mutalisks or lurkers. You can also see with scans how many drones the zerg has mining and deduce whether he will have a lot of zerglings or not.
How will zerg tell whether terran has one barracks before gas or two? How will zerg tell whether terran's going for early +1 or not? How will zerg tell what terran's doing if he's one basing? Is it a tank push, is it a drop, is it a sunken break build, is it wraiths,... Of course I know not all of these require different responses per se, and not all of these are as effective. But we're talking about learning the race here and not about professionals.
* Microing marines is an easy to learn, hard to master ability. It's why even D+/C- level players can have decent micro with a control group when they put their attention to it. The problem is that they do not have the multitasking required to keep producing marines, to add their starport, to not get supply blocked, to keep an eye on those dropships,...
Zerg on the other hand... Mutalisk micro is not an easy to learn, hard to master ability. It's hard to learn, hard to master. It's why even C and B level zergs still have horrible mutalisk micro. Of course terran's +1 range upgrade plays a large role in this.
* Terran's early cheeses feel stronger than zerg's early cheeses. 8 rax with SCVs or BBS make my heart pound in my chest every time, that's how hard it is to consistently stop them. Executing them doesn't make me feel the same, especially because you're again on Zerg's doorstep. At the 7 o'clock position on FS you can even get a full wall-off after doing an 8 rax. At the other spots you often just have to build a bunker and you'll be safe to expand yourself as long as you keep scouting to know whether he's all-inning or not.
* The simple fact that most of terran's units have a longer range than zerg's, and its important spellcaster is flying instead of a ground unit. Small mistakes more often result in Zerg losing units than Terran. I've lost plenty of games because dumb defilers won't just fly over to cast their dark swarm :D
In a regular game there's often not even a way for terran to lose a science vessel aside from against scourge! Every single terran unit on the other hand (aside from medics) can take out a defiler.
I think that's covered a lot of aspects on why Zerg has so far been much more of a struggle to learn than Terran for me (at least for ZvT and TvZ). I am not making any claims at all about PvT, PvZ, TvT and ZvZ although I have a feeling that TvT might be easier to improve at than ZvZ.
Admittedly learning terran might have been made easier because I already had some experience with playing zerg!
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United States10627 Posts
On February 23 2017 00:43 B-royal wrote:
This response was mostly prompted by terrorbladder's post:
I'm currently playing both zerg and terran and feel terran is easier to learn (ZvT vs TvZ), and easier to win games with. Here's a detailed list of why I think this is the case (for me):
====DISCLAIMER: Not at all talking about BALANCE herel. I'm detailing my personal experience!====
* Terran's economy is very streamlined. You keep pressing 5s, 6s until you have 45 or so SCVs and then you add some more if you want to get a 3rd, which is not even a necessity.
* Terran's defense on a map like Fighting Spirit is considerably easier in the early stages of the game. Placing a supply depot at your natural, can already prevent any zergling all-in as long as you stay on your toes (i.e. don't lose your entire marine force outside your natural to 36 lings).
* Terran's macro is more streamlined. Going back to one location (saved on a location hotkey) that fits all of your barracks, factory and starport and produce units from comes more naturally than macroing from 3 locations (main - natural - third).
* Terran often has the momentum in the game. It's just the way the match-up goes. Terran moves out towards zerg's natural, zerg has to respond and build sunkens. Terran moves out to zerg's third, zerg has to have his lurkers in place. Terran comes with vessels and tanks, zerg needs to have his defiler. Terran's dropships are at the edges of zerg's bases, zerg has to have scourge ready and respond immediately.
There's more risk for zerg involved here as it's happening on the zerg's doorstep. If zerg responds appropriately and terran slips up, terran has lost some momentum that's for sure, but he doesn't take as much damage as when zerg would slip up.
* There's a lot of effective terran build orders and no way to identify which one the terran's doing. Terran can, with proper micro, have an SCV in zerg's base for quite some time. Terran has scans to check whether zerg's going mutalisks or lurkers. You can also see with scans how many drones the zerg has mining and deduce whether he will have a lot of zerglings or not.
How will zerg tell whether terran has one barracks before gas or two? How will zerg tell whether terran's going for early +1 or not? How will zerg tell what terran's doing if he's one basing? Is it a tank push, is it a drop, is it a sunken break build, is it wraiths,... Of course I know not all of these require different responses per se, and not all of these are as effective. But we're talking about learning the race here and not about professionals.
* Microing marines is an easy to learn, hard to master ability. It's why even D+/C- level players can have decent micro with a control group when they put their attention to it. The problem is that they do not have the multitasking required to keep producing marines, to add their starport, to not get supply blocked, to keep an eye on those dropships,...
Zerg on the other hand... Mutalisk micro is not an easy to learn, hard to master ability. It's hard to learn, hard to master. It's why even C and B level zergs still have horrible mutalisk micro. Of course terran's +1 range upgrade plays a large role in this.
* Terran's early cheeses feel stronger than zerg's early cheeses. 8 rax with SCVs or BBS make my heart pound in my chest every time, that's how hard it is to consistently stop them. Executing them doesn't make me feel the same, especially because you're again on Zerg's doorstep. At the 7 o'clock position on FS you can even get a full wall-off after doing an 8 rax. At the other spots you often just have to build a bunker and you'll be safe to expand yourself as long as you keep scouting to know whether he's all-inning or not.
* The simple fact that most of terran's units have a longer range than zerg's, and its important spellcaster is flying instead of a ground unit. Small mistakes more often result in Zerg losing units than Terran. I've lost plenty of games because dumb defilers won't just fly over to cast their dark swarm :D
In a regular game there's often not even a way for terran to lose a science vessel aside from against scourge! Every single terran unit on the other hand (aside from medics) can take out a defiler.
I think that's covered a lot of aspects on why Zerg has so far been much more of a struggle to learn than Terran for me (at least for ZvT and TvZ). I am not making any claims at all about PvT, PvZ, TvT and ZvZ although I have a feeling that TvT might be easier to improve at than ZvZ.
Admittedly learning terran might have been made easier because I already had some experience with playing zerg!
Zerg economy has always been the part that makes it the most challenging race because you either spend a larva to make a drone for economy, or army units, but never both. Terran and Protoss have it both ways.
Every matchup has a "metagame" and a pace. You're right, Terrans dictate the early-mid game much like Zerg dictates the early game in ZvP and to some extent, Protoss dictates the early game in PvT unless Terran goes for a fast push.
Zerg needs to play smart to scout what build Terran is going for. Does he have more marines earlier and faster? probably 2-3 rax academy. What about slower marine count but a burst with 3-4 medics? obviously +1 5rax. It's like needing to watch where the first 100 gas of Zerg goes, either lair or speed.
Micro exists everywhere, Terran still needs to make sure they can stim properly and micro well against lurkers like target firing and proper spacing. Vessels getting sniped by scourge is still very much a big deal. You make it seem like it's nothing. If it were nothing, then pros even like FlaSh wouldnt get his vessels sniped by scourge.
Small mistakes also happen with Terran side, like not paying attention to marines and losing an entire army to burrowed lurkers.
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EPT
