The 2007/08 season was quietly one of the most critical seasons of StarCraft’s history. It was around this time when many legends of old started to fade or retire; Boxer had gone to the military the previous season, Reach made his final OSL appearance and Nada was on his way out after his epic duels with Savior. At the time, people thought the Golden Age of StarCraft had come to an end. How silly that seems in retrospect since the year saw the rise of Bisu, Stork and Jaedong, but there were legitimate causes for concern at the time.
The bitter OGN-MBC vs IEG-KeSPA dispute over the rights to Proleague erupted at the conclusion of the 2006/07 season (in April) and threatened the game's very existence. It was the first indication of turbulence within the scene and one of the major challenges prior to the match fixing scandal in 2010. Moreover, interest in the game began to wane. By the end of the year, the scene found itself with leagues filled with players whom fans had little to no attachment to. With fan favorites falling away, the scene would need fresh blood to secure the future of the game.
Bisu was the first to step up to the plate; following his charismatic play in 2006, he turned PvZ on its head when he defeated Savior 3-0 in one of the most famous finals of all time. He followed up this success with a successful MSL title defense over Stork and it looked like Bisu would be the player fans would flock to much like they had done for Boxer, Nada, OOv or Savior before. However, critical eliminations at the hand of Flash in Daum OSL, Stork in EVER 2007 OSL and a crushing defeat in the finals of GOMTV S4 MSL prevented Bisu from attaining the aura of invincibility that bonjwas had attained before and suggested that the future of StarCraft would be a volatile one without bonjwas or recurrent champions.
Jaedong’s meteoric rise at the end of 2007 was the start of the story that would echo through the scene for years to come. Jaedong’s rise was defined by a killer instinct, the ability to win any game and make his opponents look hopeless in the process. The ‘EE HAN TIMING’ moment from the EVER 2007 OSL finals, where his 2 hatch mutalisk build on Katrina (with scourge to snipe corsairs) ruthlessly destroyed Stork, epitomized his uncanny ability to win.
Coming into 2008, Jaedong’s play had earned him the expectations of fans to become the next legend of the game. This was the start of a time where Jaedong rewrote the rules in every matchup. He reversed the trend towards management-focused zerg that Savior popularized and pushed the meta to a place which rewarded his creativity/mind games and his ruthless aggression. For instance, 2 hatch mutalisk vs Terran was popularized during this time while 3 hatch mutalisk became standard.
To open 2008, Jaedong blitzed all of the group stages and made the Ro8 in the OSL, MSL and GOM Star Invitational (GOM’s first foray into StarCraft tournaments). He had become the unstoppable force and was odds on favourite to win everything. But in each of the Ro8 matches, he drew a rookie on the rise – none other than Flash.
Flash’s early career was defined by those three Ro8 encounters with Jaedong, but those games have almost been forgotten by history. Up until that point, Flash was just another Terran struggling to differentiate himself from the pack of other Terrans such as UpMagic or Mind. His sole claim to fame was a brilliant cheese against Bisu in Daum OSL which knocked him out of the Ro8. Ironically, in 2007, Flash had gained a reputation as someone unable to play the meta and found success in the unconventional. Indeed, even during the group stage of Bacchus OSL, he was still trying to work out how to play the meta and struggled against the carrier usage of Rock and reaver usage of Stork. He had to play tiebreakers to get out of his group.
It’s impossible to undersell the significance of the three encounters between Jaedong and Flash that were about to unfold. These matches built a rivalry that brought the fans back to StarCraft and together with Bisu-Stork, ushered in an unexpected Golden Age of StarCraft which was arguably better than anything that had come before. The pull of these players rebuilt the scene after the fading of legends in 2007/08 to the point where the scene was healthy enough to weather the match fixing scandal that emerged in 2010.
The first of the three encounters was a Bo5 in GOMTV S4 MSL. History notes the scoreline as being 3-1 to Jaedong, but that doesn’t illuminate the impact of this first bout. Flash was the heavy underdog coming into this match but went blow for blow against Jaedong – even winning the first match. Game 1 saw Flash use mech on Katrina to eventually overwhelm his opponent, while Game 2 was a Jaedong clinic on mutalisk control and a well thought out strategy (hidden expo into Guardian). Each of these opening games were closely fought and typified the playstyle of each player. Game 3 was an epic slugfest using the meta of 2006-7 (lurker opening/mnm pressure) which showed that Flash could keep up with Jaedong, even if Jaedong eventually won the game. Game 4 had Jaedong defend an uninspired bunker rush. If nothing else, this series made people take note – here was a rising player going toe to toe with the best player in the world. This only served to build anticipation for their next meeting in the OSL.
Their OSL encounter was a Bo3 and once again, Jaedong was the heavy favorite. Flash unexpectedly won the first game with a pristine mnmnf timing attack while Jaedong took the second with another clinic on mutalisk control. The deciding match was on Katrina – the same map as the first match of their MSL Ro8 encounter. Once again, Flash pursued a mech strategy and won the game off of a single push – an even cleaner victory than in the MSL. Flash defeating Jaedong 2-1 here sent ripples through the community. Jaedong was mortal after all. Flash instantly rose in popularity and any memory of his mediocre 2007 was erased and replaced with the moment that he took down the best player in the world. Flash later repeated this feat by defeating Jaedong in the GS:I, proving that this was no fluke. The map score over this 3 week period was 5-5, and 2-1 in series in favor of Flash.
Jaedong went on to win GOMTV S4 MSL, while Flash won Bacchus OSL and the GS:I. Jaedong’s victory in the MSL was proof that Jaedong was not slumping, Flash’s wins were the real deal. However, another meeting in a high profile match would have to wait months as ForGG made a historic run in Arena MSL where he defeated Flash and Jaedong on his way to the championship.
To this point, Bisu, Jaedong then Flash had all made incredible but short lived runs and it seemed like the scene was destined for volatility. However, rather than new faces taking the final titles of 2008, instead, we had Bisu win ClubDay MSL, Stork win Incruit OSL and Jaedong 3-0 Flash in the finals of GOM Classic S1. Little did we know that the volatility we had experienced to this point was a symptom of having four of the most incredible players of all time rise up almost simultaneously.
In the fall of 2008-09, Jaedong struggled to make deep runs in any tournament to the point where he had dropped out of the OSL and was fighting to get back in. Jaedong’s return to form after this slump was even more meteoric than his rise in 2007. Starting from the offline preliminaries, Jaedong fought his way to the championship of Batoo OSL and won his second Starleague. It was at this point that the scene realized that the old had been replaced with the new, and fresh blood was pumping through the veins of the community. We found ourselves with the first wave of community casters as streaming and youtube became more accessible; all of them eager to tell the stories happening in Korea. The legends of TaekBangLeeSsang were being forged.
Jaedong’s history making OSL title defense (the first since Boxer) earned him a Golden Mouse and cemented his status as an all time great. But the Tyrant’s rampage had one footnote – Flash had been in a slump during this time. After their clashes in 2008, fans were eager to see a full strength Ultimate Weapon against the relentless Tyrant. After all, the last time, Jaedong looked immortal and the only player that could touch him was Flash. When Flash found his form at the end of the year and out of nowhere, eliminated Jaedong in the Ro8 of EVER 2009 OSL, the community fixated on seeing a championship match between the two. Flash would end up making the final of both MSL and OSL that season, and would win his second OSL over Movie. While Jaedong bounced back from his loss to Flash to reach the finals of NATE MSL.
NATE MSL was the first major league final between Flash and Jaedong, and remarkably, both players were in their best form.
The hype surrounding the NATE MSL final was palpable. Fueled by memory of their epic duels in 2008, fans worked themselves into a frenzy for the upcoming match. Many rivalries in StarCraft history have been forged through a close final – LimJinRok (Boxer-Yellow) is of course the most famous of these (Boxer 3-2 Yellow in Coca Cola OSL). But very few rivalries ever get to be played out in a final with both players in their best form. Prior to NATE MSL, the only finals which might meet this description would be Boxer vs Yellow in the first KPGA Tour (KPGA tour turned into MSL later), iloveOOv vs July in Shinhan 2005 OSL and Nada vs Savior in Shinhan 3 OSL. There was no question that this final would be something special.
The opening two games made fans giddy with joy – the first showed off Jaedong’s clinical mutalisk control while the second was a tensely fought macro game where Flash ultimately came out on top. The two were evenly matched and the games were living up to the expectation of the crowd. Game 3 on Odd Eye has become one of the most memorable games of all time… for all the wrong reasons.
Game 3 continued where Game 2 left off with Flash pressuring all over the map and Jaedong hanging on trying to get an overwhelming force of Hive units. The critical moment was this – Flash had one mining base while Jaedong had 2 or 3. Jaedong had also just defended Flash’s onslaught onto his fourth base and looked to be in a position to stabilize. Both players and their fans thought that they could still win the game. Suddenly, everything went dark – it was a power cut – the game abruptly ended. After at least 20 minutes of consultation, the referees awarded the game to Jaedong having deemed that he had a clear advantage. For the most anticipated match in a year, this was a blow to the gut for fans and players alike. Flash rolled over in Game 4 without resistance – perhaps disheartened after what had transpired – and Jaedong emerged victorious. If not for what happened in the rest of 2010, the fans may have felt forever cheated.
Flash after the decision was announced
The conclusion of NATE MSL left the fans wanting more and if StarCraft had ended right then, the Flash-Jaedong rivalry would forever be overshadowed by a technical error. Fortunately, NATE MSL would not be the last time the two would meet in a final.
Flash and Jaedong made history by meeting each other in 3 consecutive MSL finals and in the last OSL final of the year. Their consistency during this period remains the most remarkable period of time in StarCraft history. The feeling at the time was that Flash and Jaedong were invincible – despite Effort's upset win over Flash in Korean Air OSL – and settling the question of which player was better was the most important storyline of the year. Flash would best Jaedong in Hana Daetoo MSL 3-0, getting revenge for NATE MSL. BigFile MSL was also won by Flash 3-2, with mostly one sided games. This put Flash up 2-1 in finals over Jaedong. The final meeting would be in Korean Air S2 OSL. Flash would emerge victorious 3-1, winning a Golden Mouse in the process, but with much closer games than in BigFile MSL. This put Flash 3-1 up over Jaedong and – in conjunction with making every final in 2010 – cemented Flash’s legacy and edged him ahead of Jaedong in their rivalry.
Flash vs Jaedong is the greatest rivalry in StarCraft, and one of the greatest rivalries in any sport. It’s so rare to see two players be so dominant at the same time. Without Jaedong, it’s likely Flash would be the unquestionable greatest of all time. Equally, without Flash, Jaedong would likely be the unquestionable greatest of all time. There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more. No other rivalry was as even or contributed as much depth to the game as this one, and we’re unlikely to see anything like it again in any esport.
The lifetime score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series.
A playlist of every game in their rivalry from the KeSPA era
Stay tuned for a preview of their upcoming semifinals in ASL2!
I started watching BW in 2009 and man those were good times. I remember staying up until 5-6 in the morning watching the finals when Jaedong vs Flash would happen. Some sad/frustrating and happy times. Hope both of them can continue being top for awhile and hopefully Jaedong can surprise against Flash as he's the obvious underdog now.
The Flash vs Jaedong rivalry was SO INTENSE that back in 2010, a Jaedong fan on here made like 5 accounts to argue with himself about why Jaedong was great and Flash was bad. Truly a tumultuous time.
I remember being on the old SC2GG IRC back during the Nate MSL Final. I did the tiny bit of translation work needed during the blackout and everyone was just in complete shock at what happened. What a crazy event.
Biggest JD fan. Flash is probably favoured but still rooting for my man. Lee Jae Don't fighting!
Just had to stick Bisu at the top of the article about flash vs jaedong. You could have atleast tried to mask your obvious Bisu bias with a picture of Stork, Plexa.
Seriously though, I think the most even series that Flash and Jaedong played was the Power Outage one. Maybe its fitting that we'll never find out if Flash at the start of his dominance and Jaedong at the end of his dominance would win. Such a sad ending to such an epic match (or just that one epic game).
Correction Bisu lost to Mind in the finals of GOM TV S3 MSL, not Season 4 (Jaedong won that one). I am sure of that because that was literally the first finals after I got into the pro scene.
Also another fun fact: For the GS:I Gom posted one game to show the skill of each of the invited players. Flash's was Flash v Jaedong on Python. The only time the 2 had played until that point (which was just before the MSL Ro8).
On January 16 2017 09:09 duke91 wrote: Jaedong vs Flash is what Jangbi vs Fantasy could have been
It's a pity that just when these two players could've taken over that mantle, and seen themselves fending off upstarts, everything had to come to a screeching halt.
I do believe you don't give enough credit to Bisu and Stork in your closing statement:
"There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more."
Looking at Bisu and Stork's record vs. Flash and Jaedong, it is clear that they "consistently matched Flash or Jaedong."
I do appreciate the history you told and that you painted a great picture, helped along with the inclusion of Bisu, Stork, Savior, Boxer, Yellow, etc. for comparison. I think this is a great post. Thank you for this!
It looks like the end of the article is intended to be a playlist, but the link appears to only go to one of their games? (Not complaining, I just wondered if it was a mistake.) Great write-up, looking forward to the games!
On January 16 2017 12:47 Jealous wrote: I do believe you don't give enough credit to Bisu and Stork in your closing statement:
"There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more."
Looking at Bisu and Stork's record vs. Flash and Jaedong, it is clear that they "consistently matched Flash or Jaedong."
I do appreciate the history you told and that you painted a great picture, helped along with the inclusion of Bisu, Stork, Savior, Boxer, Yellow, etc. for comparison. I think this is a great post. Thank you for this!
During Flash's 6 straight finals, Bisu wasn't able to make it past the Ro16 a single time. Stork did better in individual leagues, but the one time he did make it to the semis, he was knocked out by Jaedong. From September 2009 to September 2010, when Flash and Jaedong made a combined 10 finals (excluding WCG), Bisu played Flash and Jaedong a single time each, losing to Flash and beating Jaedong. Stork played Flash 3 games, going 1-2, and played Jaedong 6 times, going 3-3.
Yes, Bisu and Stork took games off Flash and Jaedong, and on very rare occasion even took a series, as the article said. But, if you look at the grand scheme of things, it was Flash and Jaedong who were consistently making finals, while Bisu for years only saw success in Proleague, and the few times Stork faced Flash or Jaedong in a Bo5, he lost every time.
This article brought back so many memories! I watched the "Power outage MSL" live and even though I was happy that Jaedong won, I had a sinking feeling that Flash would be somehow, er, "energized" by this event, and would be back for his revenge. Jaedong also seemed somehow spooked by what happened, even though he tried his hardest against Flash after that, he never really regained that last tiny bit of an edge over his rival that was necessary to win.
To see these two legends battling each other again in the ASL is just awesome. I know Jaedong is an underdog but I want him to win so badly, I can't even describe it.
Thanks for the article! I'm looking forward to the next one!
On January 16 2017 12:47 Jealous wrote: I do believe you don't give enough credit to Bisu and Stork in your closing statement:
"There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more."
Looking at Bisu and Stork's record vs. Flash and Jaedong, it is clear that they "consistently matched Flash or Jaedong."
I do appreciate the history you told and that you painted a great picture, helped along with the inclusion of Bisu, Stork, Savior, Boxer, Yellow, etc. for comparison. I think this is a great post. Thank you for this!
During Flash's 6 straight finals, Bisu wasn't able to make it past the Ro16 a single time. Stork did better in individual leagues, but the one time he did make it to the semis, he was knocked out by Jaedong. From September 2009 to September 2010, when Flash and Jaedong made a combined 10 finals (excluding WCG), Bisu played Flash and Jaedong a single time each, losing to Flash and beating Jaedong. Stork played Flash 3 games, going 1-2, and played Jaedong 6 times, going 3-3.
Yes, Bisu and Stork took games off Flash and Jaedong, and on very rare occasion even took a series, as the article said. But, if you look at the grand scheme of things, it was Flash and Jaedong who were consistently making finals, while Bisu for years only saw success in Proleague, and the few times Stork faced Flash or Jaedong in a Bo5, he lost every time.
Neither the original quote nor I argued that Flash and JaeDong weren't far more successful in individual leagues in the time period of their dominance. The quote asserts that no one could see them eye-to-eye, which is simply untrue when you consider that Stork has a winning record against Jaedong, for example (I'm on mobile so I can't check, but I feel like Bisu does as well; at worst it's very close to 50%). My point is that having 50%+ win rate against Jaedong and Flash over the course of 20+ games should qualify those players as consistently matching them. Jaedong and Flash already have enough to brag about, as you pointed out; there is no need to spread untrue statements that diminish the presence and victories of other players.
On January 16 2017 12:47 Jealous wrote: I do believe you don't give enough credit to Bisu and Stork in your closing statement:
"There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more."
Looking at Bisu and Stork's record vs. Flash and Jaedong, it is clear that they "consistently matched Flash or Jaedong."
I do appreciate the history you told and that you painted a great picture, helped along with the inclusion of Bisu, Stork, Savior, Boxer, Yellow, etc. for comparison. I think this is a great post. Thank you for this!
During Flash's 6 straight finals, Bisu wasn't able to make it past the Ro16 a single time. Stork did better in individual leagues, but the one time he did make it to the semis, he was knocked out by Jaedong. From September 2009 to September 2010, when Flash and Jaedong made a combined 10 finals (excluding WCG), Bisu played Flash and Jaedong a single time each, losing to Flash and beating Jaedong. Stork played Flash 3 games, going 1-2, and played Jaedong 6 times, going 3-3.
Yes, Bisu and Stork took games off Flash and Jaedong, and on very rare occasion even took a series, as the article said. But, if you look at the grand scheme of things, it was Flash and Jaedong who were consistently making finals, while Bisu for years only saw success in Proleague, and the few times Stork faced Flash or Jaedong in a Bo5, he lost every time.
Neither the original quote nor I argued that Flash and JaeDong weren't far more successful in individual leagues in the time period of their dominance. The quote asserts that no one could see them eye-to-eye, which is simply untrue when you consider that Stork has a winning record against Jaedong, for example (I'm on mobile so I can't check, but I feel like Bisu does as well; at worst it's very close to 50%). My point is that having 50%+ win rate against Jaedong and Flash over the course of 20+ games should qualify those players as consistently matching them. Jaedong and Flash already have enough to brag about, as you pointed out; there is no need to spread untrue statements that diminish the presence and victories of other players.
"There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more." I believe the writer referred to Jaedong & Flash's ability to repeatedly go deep in tournaments. Back in their prime, J&F were a given in Top 4 of every OSL and MSL. At the same time. Sure if you look strictly at H2H records then Stork = or > every other TBLS. Stardust (m18m) had a winning H2h against Flash. ForGG had a winning H2h against Jaedong. H2H only speaks for the matchup
i remember there being a FvJ rivalry highlight video, going through all the games, showing their head to head score, but iirc the video got taken down from youtube which is why i couldnt find it anymore If somebody still has that video, i would be happy.....
Great article! I usually just skim through them, but this one was interesting and well written. Particularly since my memory was in need of a refreshment
On January 16 2017 12:47 Jealous wrote: I do believe you don't give enough credit to Bisu and Stork in your closing statement:
"There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more."
Looking at Bisu and Stork's record vs. Flash and Jaedong, it is clear that they "consistently matched Flash or Jaedong."
I do appreciate the history you told and that you painted a great picture, helped along with the inclusion of Bisu, Stork, Savior, Boxer, Yellow, etc. for comparison. I think this is a great post. Thank you for this!
During Flash's 6 straight finals, Bisu wasn't able to make it past the Ro16 a single time. Stork did better in individual leagues, but the one time he did make it to the semis, he was knocked out by Jaedong. From September 2009 to September 2010, when Flash and Jaedong made a combined 10 finals (excluding WCG), Bisu played Flash and Jaedong a single time each, losing to Flash and beating Jaedong. Stork played Flash 3 games, going 1-2, and played Jaedong 6 times, going 3-3.
Yes, Bisu and Stork took games off Flash and Jaedong, and on very rare occasion even took a series, as the article said. But, if you look at the grand scheme of things, it was Flash and Jaedong who were consistently making finals, while Bisu for years only saw success in Proleague, and the few times Stork faced Flash or Jaedong in a Bo5, he lost every time.
Neither the original quote nor I argued that Flash and JaeDong weren't far more successful in individual leagues in the time period of their dominance. The quote asserts that no one could see them eye-to-eye, which is simply untrue when you consider that Stork has a winning record against Jaedong, for example (I'm on mobile so I can't check, but I feel like Bisu does as well; at worst it's very close to 50%). My point is that having 50%+ win rate against Jaedong and Flash over the course of 20+ games should qualify those players as consistently matching them. Jaedong and Flash already have enough to brag about, as you pointed out; there is no need to spread untrue statements that diminish the presence and victories of other players.
On January 16 2017 12:47 Jealous wrote: I do believe you don't give enough credit to Bisu and Stork in your closing statement:
"There were no other players that could consistently match Flash or Jaedong in their prime – at best, a map or series here and there, but nothing more."
Looking at Bisu and Stork's record vs. Flash and Jaedong, it is clear that they "consistently matched Flash or Jaedong."
I do appreciate the history you told and that you painted a great picture, helped along with the inclusion of Bisu, Stork, Savior, Boxer, Yellow, etc. for comparison. I think this is a great post. Thank you for this!
During Flash's 6 straight finals, Bisu wasn't able to make it past the Ro16 a single time. Stork did better in individual leagues, but the one time he did make it to the semis, he was knocked out by Jaedong. From September 2009 to September 2010, when Flash and Jaedong made a combined 10 finals (excluding WCG), Bisu played Flash and Jaedong a single time each, losing to Flash and beating Jaedong. Stork played Flash 3 games, going 1-2, and played Jaedong 6 times, going 3-3.
Yes, Bisu and Stork took games off Flash and Jaedong, and on very rare occasion even took a series, as the article said. But, if you look at the grand scheme of things, it was Flash and Jaedong who were consistently making finals, while Bisu for years only saw success in Proleague, and the few times Stork faced Flash or Jaedong in a Bo5, he lost every time.
Neither the original quote nor I argued that Flash and JaeDong weren't far more successful in individual leagues in the time period of their dominance. The quote asserts that no one could see them eye-to-eye, which is simply untrue when you consider that Stork has a winning record against Jaedong, for example (I'm on mobile so I can't check, but I feel like Bisu does as well; at worst it's very close to 50%). My point is that having 50%+ win rate against Jaedong and Flash over the course of 20+ games should qualify those players as consistently matching them. Jaedong and Flash already have enough to brag about, as you pointed out; there is no need to spread untrue statements that diminish the presence and victories of other players.
Neither Stork nor Bisu played 20+ games against Flash or Jaedong when they were in their prime. Being able to consistently match someone means that you're going deep in the same tournaments that they are, and at least occasionally beating them. Neither Bisu nor Stork were able to do this.
Sure, Bisu and Stork performed well against Jaedong in regular season Proleague games, and Stork even managed to knock Jaedong out of WCG one time. However, winning some regular season Proleague games is the very definition of taking a map here and there. Can you really say that someone who for years couldn't make it past the Ro16 was consistently matching the players who were making every final just because of a few regular season Proleague games?
Incidentally, once Flash began his prime in the 2009-2010 season, his record was 4-2 against Bisu, and 7-2 against Stork.
There's also another factor that skewed perception of their dominance. Flash and Jaedong were very frequently carrying their teams in proleague while winning the individual leagues. SKT1 and Khan had more even rosters of very good players but you would always hear about how Flash and Jaedong went out twice every single match to child labor their teams to victory.
On January 16 2017 11:07 GolemMadness wrote: The Flash vs Jaedong rivalry was SO INTENSE that back in 2010, a Jaedong fan on here made like 5 accounts to argue with himself about why Jaedong was great and Flash was bad. Truly a tumultuous time.
On January 16 2017 11:07 GolemMadness wrote: The Flash vs Jaedong rivalry was SO INTENSE that back in 2010, a Jaedong fan on here made like 5 accounts to argue with himself about why Jaedong was great and Flash was bad. Truly a tumultuous time.
Fun fact: Out of the 45 games played between the two, Flash goes for 14cc (cc first) 14 games (1 for every 3 games played) and wins 9 of them. (TLPD recorded)
So 40% of Flash wins vs Jaedong are 14cc games.
From his 5 wins in these 14 games Jaedong won 3 out of 5 by playing standard with bo disadvantage- 12h,12pool while only 1 with 9pool speed and only 1 with 3hatch before pool.
Probably a noob question, that has probably been asked many times....but why didn't they just make a rematch, instead of having the referees decide in 2009 NATE MSL ?
On January 16 2017 17:55 Antisocialmunky wrote: There's also another factor that skewed perception of their dominance. Flash and Jaedong were very frequently carrying their teams in proleague while winning the individual leagues. SKT1 and Khan had more even rosters of very good players but you would always hear about how Flash and Jaedong went out twice every single match to child labor their teams to victory.
KT Rolster was nicknamed KT FlaSh back then and Hwaseong OZ was Jaedong OZ as well. KT didn't have enough consistency with Hoejja, Action, Stats, ForGG, etc back then with their only really "consistent" player being Violet (Rest in Peace). OZ had slightly better players with Hiya and Killer but only Killer was ever "consistent" too after taking to his mentor.
On January 16 2017 19:14 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Fun fact: Out of the 45 games played between the two, Flash goes for 14cc (cc first) 14 games (1 for every 3 games played) and wins 9 of them. (TLPD recorded)
So 40% of Flash wins vs Jaedong are 14cc games.
From his 5 wins in these 14 games Jaedong won 3 out of 5 by playing standard with bo disadvantage- 12h,12pool while only 1 with 9pool speed and only 1 with 3hatch before pool.
wow thats some cool insight. one thing i loved about those series with JD is Flash always busted out some unique builds.
On January 16 2017 13:36 Obzy wrote: It looks like the end of the article is intended to be a playlist, but the link appears to only go to one of their games? (Not complaining, I just wondered if it was a mistake.) Great write-up, looking forward to the games!
i wanted to write the same,is there link to good playlist?
Might be a coincidence but LOL at the stream bar on the right, only protosses streaming as all terrans and zergs are probably occupied with Flash/Jaedong secret practice hours:
From these Last is currently obsing a protoss' stream.
On January 16 2017 11:07 GolemMadness wrote: The Flash vs Jaedong rivalry was SO INTENSE that back in 2010, a Jaedong fan on here made like 5 accounts to argue with himself about why Jaedong was great and Flash was bad. Truly a tumultuous time.
I kind of have a vague memory of this happening!!
On January 16 2017 11:31 Piratezerg wrote: Awesome write up, you basically can't write enough amazing things about these two players. And Jaedong did it all while also carrying his lame team.
They both did. I would argue Flash even more so. He wasnt called child labor terran for nothing.
On January 16 2017 13:36 Obzy wrote: It looks like the end of the article is intended to be a playlist, but the link appears to only go to one of their games? (Not complaining, I just wondered if it was a mistake.) Great write-up, looking forward to the games!
i wanted to write the same,is there link to good playlist?
Wow beautiful write up. I read the BW articles all the time but rarely comment. Haven't been able to play BW in months but I love how the ASL is satisfying my craving lol. So excited for Flash vs Jaedong and to have Tasteless and Artosis casting! American here watching from Prague!
On January 16 2017 19:17 valas991 wrote: Great read, thanks!
Probably a noob question, that has probably been asked many times....but why didn't they just make a rematch, instead of having the referees decide in 2009 NATE MSL ?
because Jaedong was about to win. You'd feel pretty cheated if you're about to win and the other guy escapes by a lucky poweroutage. That's why Jaedong was awarded the win. Then, imagine losing the rematch, even though you were about to win the only game that was meant to be played.
Flash Vs Jaedong is the Madrid vs Barca of Football (well, at least if you live in Spain).
Personally, If I try to think about what Flash vs Jaedong is for me (like, what can I compare it to?), There is really only one thing close enough: Goku vs Vegeta. The first time they fight on Earth. (Kaio-what?).
On January 16 2017 19:36 DracoMortuiVolantus wrote:
On January 16 2017 13:36 Obzy wrote: It looks like the end of the article is intended to be a playlist, but the link appears to only go to one of their games? (Not complaining, I just wondered if it was a mistake.) Great write-up, looking forward to the games!
i wanted to write the same,is there link to good playlist?
On January 16 2017 19:37 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Might be a coincidence but LOL at the stream bar on the right, only protosses streaming as all terrans and zergs are probably occupied with Flash/Jaedong secret practice hours:
From these Last is currently obsing a protoss' stream.
Seems like a coincidence that nobody else is streaming, but I don't think it's at all unlikely that Effort/ZerO are practicing vs Flash right now, and Last is practicing vs Jaedong right now
On January 16 2017 17:55 Antisocialmunky wrote: There's also another factor that skewed perception of their dominance. Flash and Jaedong were very frequently carrying their teams in proleague while winning the individual leagues. SKT1 and Khan had more even rosters of very good players but you would always hear about how Flash and Jaedong went out twice every single match to child labor their teams to victory.
KT Rolster was nicknamed KT FlaSh back then and Hwaseong OZ was Jaedong OZ as well. KT didn't have enough consistency with Hoejja, Action, Stats, ForGG, etc back then with their only really "consistent" player being Violet (Rest in Peace). OZ had slightly better players with Hiya and Killer but only Killer was ever "consistent" too after taking to his mentor.
Killer consistent? LOL The only time Killer was consistent was when the KeSPA era was over and he reigned the amateur scene for a few months...
Hyped for this! Wish Jaedong had another 6 month of practice, but maybe he gets back into it really quick. It's not like any of them did anything else for the last 6+ years than playing computer anyway =)
On January 16 2017 17:55 Antisocialmunky wrote: There's also another factor that skewed perception of their dominance. Flash and Jaedong were very frequently carrying their teams in proleague while winning the individual leagues. SKT1 and Khan had more even rosters of very good players but you would always hear about how Flash and Jaedong went out twice every single match to child labor their teams to victory.
KT Rolster was nicknamed KT FlaSh back then and Hwaseong OZ was Jaedong OZ as well. KT didn't have enough consistency with Hoejja, Action, Stats, ForGG, etc back then with their only really "consistent" player being Violet (Rest in Peace). OZ had slightly better players with Hiya and Killer but only Killer was ever "consistent" too after taking to his mentor.
Yeah, compare that to Samsung Khan with FBH/Jangbi/Stork and SKT1 with Best/Fantasy/Bisu(except that one season where everyone slumped and Hyuk led the normally terribad SKT1 Zergs to carry the entire team lul).
On January 16 2017 19:14 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Fun fact: Out of the 45 games played between the two, Flash goes for 14cc (cc first) 14 games (1 for every 3 games played) and wins 9 of them. (TLPD recorded)
So 40% of Flash wins vs Jaedong are 14cc games.
From his 5 wins in these 14 games Jaedong won 3 out of 5 by playing standard with bo disadvantage- 12h,12pool while only 1 with 9pool speed and only 1 with 3hatch before pool.
Do you have an overview of openings for all Flash vs Jaedong games by any chance? Would be interesting to see their overall build order choices.
On January 16 2017 19:14 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Fun fact: Out of the 45 games played between the two, Flash goes for 14cc (cc first) 14 games (1 for every 3 games played) and wins 9 of them. (TLPD recorded)
So 40% of Flash wins vs Jaedong are 14cc games.
From his 5 wins in these 14 games Jaedong won 3 out of 5 by playing standard with bo disadvantage- 12h,12pool while only 1 with 9pool speed and only 1 with 3hatch before pool.
Do you have an overview of openings for all Flash vs Jaedong games by any chance? Would be interesting to see their overall build order choices.
No but another thing I recall is that Jaedong did way more 4pools and 7pools than I anticipated. For instance I think Flash made no more than 8games (maybe 6?) 8rax or earlier first while Jaedong did the very least in 3 games 4pool and 1 game 7pool from what I recall.
What was going on in his head? I understand 9pooling or something but 4pool against terran? Did Jaedong think Flash underpracticed his single marine + scvs micro vs 6 lings lol? Perhaps I should play it a while to check what's up.
On January 16 2017 19:14 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Fun fact: Out of the 45 games played between the two, Flash goes for 14cc (cc first) 14 games (1 for every 3 games played) and wins 9 of them. (TLPD recorded)
So 40% of Flash wins vs Jaedong are 14cc games.
From his 5 wins in these 14 games Jaedong won 3 out of 5 by playing standard with bo disadvantage- 12h,12pool while only 1 with 9pool speed and only 1 with 3hatch before pool.
Do you have an overview of openings for all Flash vs Jaedong games by any chance? Would be interesting to see their overall build order choices.
No but another thing I recall is that Jaedong did way more 4pools and 7pools than I anticipated. For instance I think Flash made no more than 8games (maybe 6?) 8rax or earlier first while Jaedong did the very least in 3 games 4pool and 1 game 7pool from what I recall.
What was going on in his head? I understand 9pooling or something but 4pool against terran? Did Jaedong think Flash underpracticed his single marine + scvs micro vs 6 lings lol? Perhaps I should play it a while to check what's up.
The 4pools weren't until very late though.
Q: How would it feel if Jaedong was to 4 or 5 pool against you? Flash: It never happened to me. However, a lot of our games were wrapped up by mutalisks. If it were to happen to me, the thought of “you’ve got me” would pop up, I guess. It would be mentally crippling in a series. Jaedong: When you lose like that, it does put you off your footing, so to speak.
On January 16 2017 19:14 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Fun fact: Out of the 45 games played between the two, Flash goes for 14cc (cc first) 14 games (1 for every 3 games played) and wins 9 of them. (TLPD recorded)
So 40% of Flash wins vs Jaedong are 14cc games.
From his 5 wins in these 14 games Jaedong won 3 out of 5 by playing standard with bo disadvantage- 12h,12pool while only 1 with 9pool speed and only 1 with 3hatch before pool.
Do you have an overview of openings for all Flash vs Jaedong games by any chance? Would be interesting to see their overall build order choices.
No but another thing I recall is that Jaedong did way more 4pools and 7pools than I anticipated. For instance I think Flash made no more than 8games (maybe 6?) 8rax or earlier first while Jaedong did the very least in 3 games 4pool and 1 game 7pool from what I recall.
What was going on in his head? I understand 9pooling or something but 4pool against terran? Did Jaedong think Flash underpracticed his single marine + scvs micro vs 6 lings lol? Perhaps I should play it a while to check what's up.
Jaedong has a pretty good record with 4 pool against terran though. Remember his game against fantasy where he beat the 1 fax wall off around the bunker with 4 pool? That game was so incredible. When he surrounded the bunker, holy shit.
The funny thing is, the game after he went for 9 Pool and forced his way through a wall off. xD You could feel Jaedong's pressure through the screen as if he forced his zergling through himself by giving them extra power.
On January 16 2017 23:34 StylishVODs wrote: Hyped for this! Wish Jaedong had another 6 month of practice, but maybe he gets back into it really quick. It's not like any of them did anything else for the last 6+ years than playing computer anyway =)
I have not watched enough sc to judge, but is jaedong really in form (as tastosis hyped it in the last games) and should we expect anything but a total flash domination? (maybe with jaedongs killer instinct as a shimmer of hope). I've always rooted for jd during bw (as a bw zerg), but I don't dare expect an even game.
As I have a less race biased view now I hope for jd to do good, but not because I want him (as a zerg) to win, but to be able to enjoy truly top class, even and nail-biting sc no matter who wins
On January 16 2017 23:34 StylishVODs wrote: Hyped for this! Wish Jaedong had another 6 month of practice, but maybe he gets back into it really quick. It's not like any of them did anything else for the last 6+ years than playing computer anyway =)
I have not watched enough sc to judge, but is jaedong really in form (as tastosis hyped it in the last games) and should we expect anything but a total flash domination? (maybe with jaedongs killer instinct as a shimmer of hope). I've always rooted for jd during bw (as a bw zerg), but I don't dare expect an even game.
As I have a less race biased view now I hope for jd to do good, but not because I want him (as a zerg) to win, but to be able to enjoy truly top class, even and nail-biting sc no matter who wins
Flash is the best player by far right now.
Jaedong is doing very well but far from his prime, especially in Z v T. Most well versed people would predict Flash.
what a great fuckin article. really takes you back through the feels, what a trip. I'm glad to have experienced their stories, to have witness their greatness. on such a beautiful canvas. what a game. what a time to be alive. we live in the future.
On January 16 2017 19:14 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Fun fact: Out of the 45 games played between the two, Flash goes for 14cc (cc first) 14 games (1 for every 3 games played) and wins 9 of them. (TLPD recorded)
So 40% of Flash wins vs Jaedong are 14cc games.
From his 5 wins in these 14 games Jaedong won 3 out of 5 by playing standard with bo disadvantage- 12h,12pool while only 1 with 9pool speed and only 1 with 3hatch before pool.
Do you have an overview of openings for all Flash vs Jaedong games by any chance? Would be interesting to see their overall build order choices.
No but another thing I recall is that Jaedong did way more 4pools and 7pools than I anticipated. For instance I think Flash made no more than 8games (maybe 6?) 8rax or earlier first while Jaedong did the very least in 3 games 4pool and 1 game 7pool from what I recall.
What was going on in his head? I understand 9pooling or something but 4pool against terran? Did Jaedong think Flash underpracticed his single marine + scvs micro vs 6 lings lol? Perhaps I should play it a while to check what's up.
4 pool shows depleted creativity and its a desperate move in my oppinion, he did it at the time when he started to go into the big slump. I remember he did 2x 4 pool fails in a row vs fantasy at that time. By the way of logic jaedong should have no chance vs flash, since he always do non stadart stuff that shouldnt work vs solid player like Flash (It should be something like in TLS julia busting everybody, but when come to solid Dragon macro play, nothing of his tricks work) so far this tournament is proving himself to be one of may upsets so anything is possible. Good thing is that there cant be a dissapointment if we see a good set of games, both are legendary players and all fans wish them to advance.
On January 16 2017 19:36 DracoMortuiVolantus wrote:
On January 16 2017 13:36 Obzy wrote: It looks like the end of the article is intended to be a playlist, but the link appears to only go to one of their games? (Not complaining, I just wondered if it was a mistake.) Great write-up, looking forward to the games!
i wanted to write the same,is there link to good playlist?
Great article, though I think the conclusion that Flash isn't considered the undisputed greatest of all time is stretching things quite a bit. I mean, I guess you're disputing it in this article, but I don't think there was any doubt by the end of Flash's run that he was in a league completely of his own.
I do think it's important to note that while Jaedong is less "in form" than Flash, JD's playstyle makes it highly likely that he capitalizes off any error that Flash makes, so while I still think this is a clean 3-0 or 3-1 from Flash it's not totally impossible that JD could take the set.
Essentially JD at his best was highly unlikely to beat Flash at his best by the end of BW, but both players below their best does slightly improve JD's odds, even if Flash is closer to top form than JD.
On January 16 2017 17:55 Antisocialmunky wrote: There's also another factor that skewed perception of their dominance. Flash and Jaedong were very frequently carrying their teams in proleague while winning the individual leagues. SKT1 and Khan had more even rosters of very good players but you would always hear about how Flash and Jaedong went out twice every single match to child labor their teams to victory.
I think it's really important to understand the context of wins - there's a very big difference between Bo3 and Bo5 wins against a prepared opponent, Proleague wins against a random opponent, and Proleague wins against an opponent specifically deployed to snipe you.
Players like Flash or Jaedong, who carry their teams in Proleague due to being leagues above the other players on their team (and thus getting sent out for most Ace matches/having to secure multiple games in Winners League) are FAR more likely to face adverse matchups in proleague (while also having much less time to prepare for individual leagues). They are having to play many of those Proleague games off-the-cuff without the benefit of practicing for a specific opponent, race, or (in the case of winner's league) map.
This makes it way, way easier for a 2nd-tier player like Bisu or Stork, who have other great players on their team, to secure individual wins against a Jaedong or a Flash. They're close enough in skill level and get the benefit of far more practice time and preparation when the opponent has very little comparatively: Flash has to prepare to face Bisu AND Fantasy (and I guess Hyuk) in an Ace match, cutting his prep time at least in half - that's a huge deal.
So while proleague victories are very important to evaluating a player's skill and flexibility, they really should be taken in context only after looking at a player's performance in a series, imho. If you're 4-3 against Flash in Proleague but can't touch him in series play (and/or aren't advancing to later rounds to face players of his caliber) you're not playing at his level.
Flash maintaining like a 75%+ win ratio in proleague during his peak is absolutely UNREAL considering how many tournaments he was in/winning.
Essentially JD at his best was highly unlikely to beat Flash at his best by the end of BW
No, because Flash eco-cheesed and went barracks first way too often vs JD. If he thought it was that unlikely Jaedong would beat him he would play standard almost every game in a matchup that is broadly considered in favour of terran and not deviate too much. His build order choices rather indicate that he was not at all confident going against Jaedong in a standard TvZ.
Wallace just interviewed briefly HiyA minutes ago on his stream chat. Not sure if that was HiyA's own words or some fan on the streamchat decided to translate whatever he wanted. Not too insightful but still: + Show Spoiler +
Wallace: Who do you think will win? Flash or Jaedong? HiyA: Jaedong 3-2 Wallace: You think Jaedong will win, why? HiyA: I don't want TvT finals, I want something more dynamic. Wallace: What is Flash's main strength for tomorrow? HiyA: He is Flash. That is his main strenght. He is god. Wallace: But Jaedong also monster Zerg, don't u think? HiyA: But as of now, Flash is undefeatable.
On January 17 2017 06:59 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Wallace just interviewed briefly HiyA minutes ago on his stream chat. Not sure if that was HiyA's own words or some fan on the streamchat decided to translate whatever he wanted. Not too insightful but still: + Show Spoiler +
Wallace: Who do you think will win? Flash or Jaedong? HiyA: Jaedong 3-2 Wallace: You think Jaedong will win, why? HiyA: I don't want TvT finals, I want something more dynamic. Wallace: What is Flash's main strength for tomorrow? HiyA: He is Flash. That is his main strenght. He is god. Wallace: But Jaedong also monster Zerg, don't u think? HiyA: But as of now, Flash is undefeatable.
first person view:
First time interviewing Korean progamer, credit to TechnicS for the idea, i was just the messenger :D
On January 17 2017 05:40 tedster wrote: Great article, though I think the conclusion that Flash isn't considered the undisputed greatest of all time is stretching things quite a bit.
I think the whole Flash-best-progamer-in-all-of-esports is exaggerated, yes he was the greatest player of all time in BW if we're talking pure skills but that's not really surprising since that's the same case in every sport - sports evolve and players get better both physically and tactically, it's pretty natural for currently active players to be the best. However, some people have to pave way for the evolution of sports and that is for me an underrated feat, it takes someone special to do that as well, usually in esports it's about pushing out strategies that no one else had thought about which becomes new metas. You have to compare all these things relatively to when the player played, as well as what competition they had, it's pretty complicated really.
On January 16 2017 23:34 StylishVODs wrote: Hyped for this! Wish Jaedong had another 6 month of practice, but maybe he gets back into it really quick. It's not like any of them did anything else for the last 6+ years than playing computer anyway =)
I have not watched enough sc to judge, but is jaedong really in form (as tastosis hyped it in the last games) and should we expect anything but a total flash domination? (maybe with jaedongs killer instinct as a shimmer of hope). I've always rooted for jd during bw (as a bw zerg), but I don't dare expect an even game.
As I have a less race biased view now I hope for jd to do good, but not because I want him (as a zerg) to win, but to be able to enjoy truly top class, even and nail-biting sc no matter who wins
Jaedong played really well in the ro8, definitely in form there, the group stages are another story though...
On January 17 2017 05:40 tedster wrote: Great article, though I think the conclusion that Flash isn't considered the undisputed greatest of all time is stretching things quite a bit.
I think the whole Flash-best-progamer-in-all-of-esports is exaggerated, yes he was the greatest player of all time in BW if we're talking pure skills but that's not really surprising since that's the same case in every sport - sports evolve and players get better both physically and tactically, it's pretty natural for currently active players to be the best. However, some people have to pave way for the evolution of sports and that is for me an underrated feat, it takes someone special to do that as well, usually in esports it's about pushing out strategies that no one else had thought about which becomes new metas. You have to compare all these things relatively to when the player played, as well as what competition they had, it's pretty complicated really.
Please explain to me how he is over exaggerated with the following list:
Flash holds the longest winning streak for both TvT (22 wins) and TvP (13 wins) in rated KeSPA matches. Flash was the top-ranked Terran player on KESPA from March 2008 through August 2009, and then from October 2009 to July 2012. Flash has the same name as his former teammate Lucifer and defeated him 2-0 during the Averatec Intel Classic Season 1. Flash earned the award for "Most Wins in Proleague" four times: in the 2008 Shinhan Bank Proleague, 2008–2009 Shinhan Bank Proleague, 2009–2010 Shinhan Bank Proleague and 2011–2012 Proleague Season 1. Flash is the only player who defeated Jaedong on Katrina and Katrina SE, dealing him all 3 of his losses. Flash has the highest Elo rating record of all time. He broke the Elo record six consecutive times. Flash is the only player to have an Elo peak in the 2400s. Flash had a 12 game win streak in TvZ games, spanning from the start of Round 1 of the 09-10 Proleague until partway through Round 2. His streak was broken by Hyun in a Proleague match between MBCGame HERO and KT Rolster. Flash holds the highest KESPA Point record ever, with 4,292.5 points in September 2010. Flash is the second player in history to win both individual leagues at the same time after NaDa in 2003. Flash is the first player in history to reach both individual league finals 3 times in a row. Flash is the fourth player in history to receive the Golden Mouse after NaDa, July, and Jaedong; he is the fifth to win the Golden Badge after NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr and Bisu. He is the second player, after NaDa, to have won both. Flash is currently been labeled as the 5th Bonjwa in Korea, with his latest dual starleague win, as well as with being to the finals of 7 major tournaments in a row (3 OSL, 3 MSL and WCG Korea), winning 4 of them. According to TLPD, Flash is currently the only player with a winrate greater than 70% in all of his match-ups.
Ow, and don't forget his 15 top 4 places in a premier tournament, where he won 9 of them.
On January 17 2017 05:40 tedster wrote: Great article, though I think the conclusion that Flash isn't considered the undisputed greatest of all time is stretching things quite a bit.
I think the whole Flash-best-progamer-in-all-of-esports is exaggerated, yes he was the greatest player of all time in BW if we're talking pure skills but that's not really surprising since that's the same case in every sport - sports evolve and players get better both physically and tactically, it's pretty natural for currently active players to be the best. However, some people have to pave way for the evolution of sports and that is for me an underrated feat, it takes someone special to do that as well, usually in esports it's about pushing out strategies that no one else had thought about which becomes new metas. You have to compare all these things relatively to when the player played, as well as what competition they had, it's pretty complicated really.
While I agree with all these points and how they relate to ranking "GOAT" players, Flash is kind of special in that he was both the consensus best player ever and also the best player relative to his peers for the longest period of time.
I definitely would say other players were more influential or even more important to the game, and it's totally fine if you use that definition to mean "greatest". I was speaking purely in terms of total skill and skill relative to the competition.
Essentially JD at his best was highly unlikely to beat Flash at his best by the end of BW
No, because Flash eco-cheesed and went barracks first way too often vs JD. If he thought it was that unlikely Jaedong would beat him he would play standard almost every game in a matchup that is broadly considered in favour of terran and not deviate too much. His build order choices rather indicate that he was not at all confident going against Jaedong in a standard TvZ.
I feel like flash probably has a better understanding of game theory than you do.
On January 16 2017 17:55 Antisocialmunky wrote: There's also another factor that skewed perception of their dominance. Flash and Jaedong were very frequently carrying their teams in proleague while winning the individual leagues. SKT1 and Khan had more even rosters of very good players but you would always hear about how Flash and Jaedong went out twice every single match to child labor their teams to victory.
KT Rolster was nicknamed KT FlaSh back then and Hwaseong OZ was Jaedong OZ as well. KT didn't have enough consistency with Hoejja, Action, Stats, ForGG, etc back then with their only really "consistent" player being Violet (Rest in Peace). OZ had slightly better players with Hiya and Killer but only Killer was ever "consistent" too after taking to his mentor.
You guys have a good point, but let me fill in on the details
Lecaf Oz was not carried by Jaedong through 2007 and 2008. Anytime, Hiya and ForGG were key players in OZs success during these years. After Anytime went to military before 08-09 proleague, ForGG transferred to KT after Winners League 2009 and Hiya ended his 1,5 years, in the aftermath of that same Winners League, of being a solid terran (in PL) into a solid, but an inconcistent one, then and only then did Oz turn into what you refer as "Jaedong OZ". Jaedong continued to be, along with Flash and Bisu, the strongest proleague player until the end of kespa BW. But they were almost never close to winning any teamleagues since the Final in August 2009 when Fantasy stopped Jaedong OZ in their/his tracks - beating Jaedong two times and Hiya once.
"Kt Flash'" story is the opposite of "JD OZ". Flash was a 15-16 year old kid, who was the only player of any worth in KT through 2007 and most of 2008. Signing Luxury prior to SPL 08-09 did improve things somewhat, but not much really since he dissapointed in Proleague relative to his success in individual leagues. The team that was once a powerhouse of first generation legends, now the same legends had turned well fed and "old" and could not compete anymore with the younger generations.
Flash was carrying KT, but since he was doing it even more alone than Jaedong would do later (he would always have Hiya by his side after all), KT was not close to winning any leagues until Winners league in march 2010.
Violet was the only really consistent player for KT? Thats not true. If you want to talk about consistency in teamleagues there was few better than Stats. Basically Violet was the second best player behind Flash from Winners League 2009 until one year later when newcomer Stats overtook the torch. Stats basically never slumped in team league from that moment until the end of kespa BW, 2 years later. KT would have not been able to compete like they did with SKT in those last two years, if it was not for Flash AND Stats. Off course it did help they had good players like ForGG, Action (who joined them prior to SPL 10-11) and occasionally Violet (RIP), but Flash and Stats was like the "Batman and Robin" of teamleagues. Bisu being Superman off course
Killer and Hiya was inconsistent, but they did help Jaedong in the Winners League in 2011 to reach third place. There is that. But imo Killer was not better than Action, they were pretty close overall.
Anyways, Thanks for the article Plexa! It was an amazing read.
On January 17 2017 09:07 meenamjah wrote: "Without Jaedong, it’s likely Flash would be the unquestionable greatest of all time." um... Flash IS the unquestioned greatest of all time.
Thank you for the write up. I'm so excited! as for the goat arguments. I mean.. I love JD but flash is the roger Federer of Starcraft and jd is his nadal. (Even nadal has a better record vs fed than jd vs flash but no one would consider nadal the goat
I made the effort and watched the openings of all 49 Flash vs Jaedong games and both went a pretty similar amount of times non-standard vs each other. Flash went 14 CC 15 times and Jaedong 3 Hatch no Pool 13 times. Flash went Rax first 7 times and Jaedong 4-9 Pool 8 times. If you count Overpool to aggressive openings it makes 10 times.
What I noticed when going through the games was that until Hana Daetoo MSL happened with the infamous 3 14 CCs in a row, Jaedong already pulled the 3 Hatch no Pool opening 8 times while Flash opened with 14 CC only 5 times. That could have played a part in his gamble during the MSL finals.
On January 17 2017 05:40 tedster wrote: Great article, though I think the conclusion that Flash isn't considered the undisputed greatest of all time is stretching things quite a bit.
I think the whole Flash-best-progamer-in-all-of-esports is exaggerated, yes he was the greatest player of all time in BW if we're talking pure skills but that's not really surprising since that's the same case in every sport - sports evolve and players get better both physically and tactically, it's pretty natural for currently active players to be the best. However, some people have to pave way for the evolution of sports and that is for me an underrated feat, it takes someone special to do that as well, usually in esports it's about pushing out strategies that no one else had thought about which becomes new metas. You have to compare all these things relatively to when the player played, as well as what competition they had, it's pretty complicated really.
I understand the distinction you're making between being the best (a label that requires you to be an active member of the most current generation of players and thus excludes Boxer, Nada, July, etc.) and being the greatest (a label that is more about dominance relative to peers and about popularizing/developing the game, and that sticks with you even after you stop being the best). I also understand what you're saying about how greatest is very subjective and even less measurable than best. If anyone wants to argue for Boxer or Nada as greatest ever, I can respect that, but after watching Flash "win the StarCraft multiplayer campaign" in 2010 and rewrite every Terran matchup, I personally can't pick anyone else as greatest of BW. (Edit: What I meant to convey here is that in addition to being the best for a long time, Flash has been no slouch in "paving the way for the evolution" of BW.)
As for "greatest of all eSports," I don't think that's a sensible label, but given that BW is the greatest eSport, I suppose Flash takes it anyway
On January 16 2017 09:09 duke91 wrote: Jaedong vs Flash is what Jangbi vs Fantasy could have been
Those 2 are with no doubt ledgends in this game, too and there was a great rivalary at the "end" of KESPA SCBW.
However (at least the last OSL) that beeing at a time when almost all practiced sc2. So it's very hard to say if there would have been a rivalary if sc2 didn't exit, not meaning that Fantasy or JangBi wouldn't have great success anyways. But other top tier players would probably have done a little bit better (those noone will be ever able to prove that). So just my opinion.
Hope those 2 come back to BW though, that would be awesome.
Want to see a tourney with more greats of that era: Fantasy, Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Kal, Soo, Sea, Paralyze, Stats, Zero, Soulkey, Effort, Baby, Bogus (yeah ok, TY and Innovation), Free, Best, Hiya, Movie, Last, Sun (the 7th Dragon "Rain"), Stardust, SSak, ForGG , skyHigh, s2, ........ Can this dream come true?
On January 17 2017 05:13 Rucho wrote: You should have included one of the best BW games of all time, WCG Flash vs Jaedong, cast by Apollo and some dude.
Back and forth game, all sorts of tech switches, harass, etc. It's beautiful.
I remember when I started watching Starcraft 2 and heard Apollo casting. I was like "Isn't this that guy that cast WCG that one time who kept calling mutalisks 'mutes' and kept repeating the phrase 'detrimental damage'?" Good times.
On January 17 2017 13:15 Cryoc wrote: I made the effort and watched the openings of all 49 Flash vs Jaedong games and both went a pretty similar amount of times non-standard vs each other. Flash went 14 CC 15 times and Jaedong 3 Hatch no Pool 13 times. Flash went Rax first 7 times and Jaedong 4-9 Pool 8 times. If you count Overpool to aggressive openings it makes 10 times.
What I noticed when going through the games was that until Hana Daetoo MSL happened with the infamous 3 14 CCs in a row, Jaedong already pulled the 3 Hatch no Pool opening 8 times while Flash opened with 14 CC only 5 times. That could have played a part in his gamble during the MSL finals.
Please tell me you know who won who in all the 3 hatch no pool, rax first and pool first games.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I have seen now that various sc2 pros (like these two) that went back to brood war. Why is that? Better prizes or...?
On January 17 2017 19:46 linkhimura wrote: Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I have seen now that various sc2 pros (like these two) that went back to brood war. Why is that? Better prizes or...?
I guess the money is still bigger in sc2. IMO brood war is the game they love, and thats why they quit sc2.
On January 17 2017 13:15 Cryoc wrote: I made the effort and watched the openings of all 49 Flash vs Jaedong games and both went a pretty similar amount of times non-standard vs each other. Flash went 14 CC 15 times and Jaedong 3 Hatch no Pool 13 times. Flash went Rax first 7 times and Jaedong 4-9 Pool 8 times. If you count Overpool to aggressive openings it makes 10 times.
What I noticed when going through the games was that until Hana Daetoo MSL happened with the infamous 3 14 CCs in a row, Jaedong already pulled the 3 Hatch no Pool opening 8 times while Flash opened with 14 CC only 5 times. That could have played a part in his gamble during the MSL finals.
Please tell me you know who won who in all the 3 hatch no pool, rax first and pool first games.
Jaedong won 4 out of 13 games with 3 Hatch no Pool, 9 out of 11 of all Pool first games and from all games where Flash opened with 1 Rax CC, Jaedong won 13 out of 24. Mind you this game data overlaps.
Just looking at the results from the 1 Rax CC vs 3 Hatch no Pool games, they are tied at 3-3.
On January 17 2017 13:15 Cryoc wrote: I made the effort and watched the openings of all 49 Flash vs Jaedong games and both went a pretty similar amount of times non-standard vs each other. Flash went 14 CC 15 times and Jaedong 3 Hatch no Pool 13 times. Flash went Rax first 7 times and Jaedong 4-9 Pool 8 times. If you count Overpool to aggressive openings it makes 10 times.
What I noticed when going through the games was that until Hana Daetoo MSL happened with the infamous 3 14 CCs in a row, Jaedong already pulled the 3 Hatch no Pool opening 8 times while Flash opened with 14 CC only 5 times. That could have played a part in his gamble during the MSL finals.
Please tell me you know who won who in all the 3 hatch no pool, rax first and pool first games.
Jaedong won 4 out of 13 games with 3 Hatch no Pool, 9 out of 11 of all Pool first games and from all games where Flash opened with 1 Rax CC, Jaedong won 13 out of 24. Mind you this game data overlaps.
Just looking at the results from the 1 Rax CC vs 3 Hatch no Pool games, they are tied at 3-3.
On January 17 2017 13:15 Cryoc wrote: I made the effort and watched the openings of all 49 Flash vs Jaedong games and both went a pretty similar amount of times non-standard vs each other. Flash went 14 CC 15 times and Jaedong 3 Hatch no Pool 13 times. Flash went Rax first 7 times and Jaedong 4-9 Pool 8 times. If you count Overpool to aggressive openings it makes 10 times.
What I noticed when going through the games was that until Hana Daetoo MSL happened with the infamous 3 14 CCs in a row, Jaedong already pulled the 3 Hatch no Pool opening 8 times while Flash opened with 14 CC only 5 times. That could have played a part in his gamble during the MSL finals.
Please tell me you know who won who in all the 3 hatch no pool, rax first and pool first games.
Jaedong won 4 out of 13 games with 3 Hatch no Pool, 9 out of 11 of all Pool first games and from all games where Flash opened with 1 Rax CC, Jaedong won 13 out of 24. Mind you this game data overlaps.
Just looking at the results from the 1 Rax CC vs 3 Hatch no Pool games, they are tied at 3-3.
thanks for sharing those, surprising that 3 hatch before pool worked so not well for Jaedong back then.
On January 17 2017 13:15 Cryoc wrote: I made the effort and watched the openings of all 49 Flash vs Jaedong games and both went a pretty similar amount of times non-standard vs each other. Flash went 14 CC 15 times and Jaedong 3 Hatch no Pool 13 times. Flash went Rax first 7 times and Jaedong 4-9 Pool 8 times. If you count Overpool to aggressive openings it makes 10 times.
What I noticed when going through the games was that until Hana Daetoo MSL happened with the infamous 3 14 CCs in a row, Jaedong already pulled the 3 Hatch no Pool opening 8 times while Flash opened with 14 CC only 5 times. That could have played a part in his gamble during the MSL finals.
Please tell me you know who won who in all the 3 hatch no pool, rax first and pool first games.
Jaedong won 4 out of 13 games with 3 Hatch no Pool, 9 out of 11 of all Pool first games and from all games where Flash opened with 1 Rax CC, Jaedong won 13 out of 24. Mind you this game data overlaps.
Just looking at the results from the 1 Rax CC vs 3 Hatch no Pool games, they are tied at 3-3.
thanks for sharing those, surprising that 3 hatch before pool worked so not well for Jaedong back then.
Might have to do with the fact that in the remaining 7 games he opened 3 Hatch before Pool, Flash went 14 CC so there was no build order advantage for him.
Man. I remember just watching these replays in an internet cafe instead of playing actual SC . They were just so entertaining to watch and even though all the commentary is in korean, you can still feel the rush and intensity between the back and forth that's going between these two masters, and the foreign language probably even makes the atmosphere more authentic.
On January 17 2017 19:46 linkhimura wrote: Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I have seen now that various sc2 pros (like these two) that went back to brood war. Why is that? Better prizes or...?
Cos BW is the better game and Korean fans still love BW.
On January 17 2017 19:46 linkhimura wrote: Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I have seen now that various sc2 pros (like these two) that went back to brood war. Why is that? Better prizes or...?
This is the game they became pro for. Sc2 ws mostly just because they have to earn money. Now since there is money in Broodwar again it's no wonder they want to play the game they lived for.