EPTOn January 16 2017 20:47 okum wrote:
There are only 48 videos. Which game is missing?
There are only 48 videos. Which game is missing?
Flash vs Jaedong Rivalry Explored - Page 5
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Rucho
United States124 Posts
Back and forth game, all sorts of tech switches, harass, etc. It's beautiful. | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
I do think it's important to note that while Jaedong is less "in form" than Flash, JD's playstyle makes it highly likely that he capitalizes off any error that Flash makes, so while I still think this is a clean 3-0 or 3-1 from Flash it's not totally impossible that JD could take the set. Essentially JD at his best was highly unlikely to beat Flash at his best by the end of BW, but both players below their best does slightly improve JD's odds, even if Flash is closer to top form than JD. | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On January 16 2017 17:55 Antisocialmunky wrote: There's also another factor that skewed perception of their dominance. Flash and Jaedong were very frequently carrying their teams in proleague while winning the individual leagues. SKT1 and Khan had more even rosters of very good players but you would always hear about how Flash and Jaedong went out twice every single match to child labor their teams to victory. I think it's really important to understand the context of wins - there's a very big difference between Bo3 and Bo5 wins against a prepared opponent, Proleague wins against a random opponent, and Proleague wins against an opponent specifically deployed to snipe you. Players like Flash or Jaedong, who carry their teams in Proleague due to being leagues above the other players on their team (and thus getting sent out for most Ace matches/having to secure multiple games in Winners League) are FAR more likely to face adverse matchups in proleague (while also having much less time to prepare for individual leagues). They are having to play many of those Proleague games off-the-cuff without the benefit of practicing for a specific opponent, race, or (in the case of winner's league) map. This makes it way, way easier for a 2nd-tier player like Bisu or Stork, who have other great players on their team, to secure individual wins against a Jaedong or a Flash. They're close enough in skill level and get the benefit of far more practice time and preparation when the opponent has very little comparatively: Flash has to prepare to face Bisu AND Fantasy (and I guess Hyuk) in an Ace match, cutting his prep time at least in half - that's a huge deal. So while proleague victories are very important to evaluating a player's skill and flexibility, they really should be taken in context only after looking at a player's performance in a series, imho. If you're 4-3 against Flash in Proleague but can't touch him in series play (and/or aren't advancing to later rounds to face players of his caliber) you're not playing at his level. Flash maintaining like a 75%+ win ratio in proleague during his peak is absolutely UNREAL considering how many tournaments he was in/winning. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On January 17 2017 05:40 tedster wrote: Essentially JD at his best was highly unlikely to beat Flash at his best by the end of BW No, because Flash eco-cheesed and went barracks first way too often vs JD. If he thought it was that unlikely Jaedong would beat him he would play standard almost every game in a matchup that is broadly considered in favour of terran and not deviate too much. His build order choices rather indicate that he was not at all confident going against Jaedong in a standard TvZ. | ||
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mammuluk
Italy94 Posts
Tomorrow another chapter: History will be there, me too! =) | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Wallace: Who do you think will win? Flash or Jaedong? HiyA: Jaedong 3-2 Wallace: You think Jaedong will win, why? HiyA: I don't want TvT finals, I want something more dynamic. Wallace: What is Flash's main strength for tomorrow? HiyA: He is Flash. That is his main strenght. He is god. Wallace: But Jaedong also monster Zerg, don't u think? HiyA: But as of now, Flash is undefeatable. | ||
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria495 Posts
On January 17 2017 06:59 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Wallace just interviewed briefly HiyA minutes ago on his stream chat. Not sure if that was HiyA's own words or some fan on the streamchat decided to translate whatever he wanted. Not too insightful but still: + Show Spoiler + Wallace: Who do you think will win? Flash or Jaedong? HiyA: Jaedong 3-2 Wallace: You think Jaedong will win, why? HiyA: I don't want TvT finals, I want something more dynamic. Wallace: What is Flash's main strength for tomorrow? HiyA: He is Flash. That is his main strenght. He is god. Wallace: But Jaedong also monster Zerg, don't u think? HiyA: But as of now, Flash is undefeatable. first person view: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kBeBaae.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ig8YW7g.png) First time interviewing Korean progamer, credit to TechnicS for the idea, i was just the messenger :D | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1030 Posts
On January 17 2017 05:40 tedster wrote: Great article, though I think the conclusion that Flash isn't considered the undisputed greatest of all time is stretching things quite a bit. I think the whole Flash-best-progamer-in-all-of-esports is exaggerated, yes he was the greatest player of all time in BW if we're talking pure skills but that's not really surprising since that's the same case in every sport - sports evolve and players get better both physically and tactically, it's pretty natural for currently active players to be the best. However, some people have to pave way for the evolution of sports and that is for me an underrated feat, it takes someone special to do that as well, usually in esports it's about pushing out strategies that no one else had thought about which becomes new metas. You have to compare all these things relatively to when the player played, as well as what competition they had, it's pretty complicated really. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On January 17 2017 02:46 10or10 wrote: I have not watched enough sc to judge, but is jaedong really in form (as tastosis hyped it in the last games) and should we expect anything but a total flash domination? (maybe with jaedongs killer instinct as a shimmer of hope). I've always rooted for jd during bw (as a bw zerg), but I don't dare expect an even game. As I have a less race biased view now I hope for jd to do good, but not because I want him (as a zerg) to win, but to be able to enjoy truly top class, even and nail-biting sc no matter who wins Jaedong played really well in the ro8, definitely in form there, the group stages are another story though... | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On January 17 2017 07:12 Freezard wrote: I think the whole Flash-best-progamer-in-all-of-esports is exaggerated, yes he was the greatest player of all time in BW if we're talking pure skills but that's not really surprising since that's the same case in every sport - sports evolve and players get better both physically and tactically, it's pretty natural for currently active players to be the best. However, some people have to pave way for the evolution of sports and that is for me an underrated feat, it takes someone special to do that as well, usually in esports it's about pushing out strategies that no one else had thought about which becomes new metas. You have to compare all these things relatively to when the player played, as well as what competition they had, it's pretty complicated really. Please explain to me how he is over exaggerated with the following list: Flash holds the longest winning streak for both TvT (22 wins) and TvP (13 wins) in rated KeSPA matches. Flash was the top-ranked Terran player on KESPA from March 2008 through August 2009, and then from October 2009 to July 2012. Flash has the same name as his former teammate Lucifer and defeated him 2-0 during the Averatec Intel Classic Season 1. Flash earned the award for "Most Wins in Proleague" four times: in the 2008 Shinhan Bank Proleague, 2008–2009 Shinhan Bank Proleague, 2009–2010 Shinhan Bank Proleague and 2011–2012 Proleague Season 1. Flash is the only player who defeated Jaedong on Katrina and Katrina SE, dealing him all 3 of his losses. Flash has the highest Elo rating record of all time. He broke the Elo record six consecutive times. Flash is the only player to have an Elo peak in the 2400s. Flash had a 12 game win streak in TvZ games, spanning from the start of Round 1 of the 09-10 Proleague until partway through Round 2. His streak was broken by Hyun in a Proleague match between MBCGame HERO and KT Rolster. Flash holds the highest KESPA Point record ever, with 4,292.5 points in September 2010. Flash is the second player in history to win both individual leagues at the same time after NaDa in 2003. Flash is the first player in history to reach both individual league finals 3 times in a row. Flash is the fourth player in history to receive the Golden Mouse after NaDa, July, and Jaedong; he is the fifth to win the Golden Badge after NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr and Bisu. He is the second player, after NaDa, to have won both. Flash is currently been labeled as the 5th Bonjwa in Korea, with his latest dual starleague win, as well as with being to the finals of 7 major tournaments in a row (3 OSL, 3 MSL and WCG Korea), winning 4 of them. According to TLPD, Flash is currently the only player with a winrate greater than 70% in all of his match-ups. Ow, and don't forget his 15 top 4 places in a premier tournament, where he won 9 of them. | ||
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Ghardo
Germany1685 Posts
 thank you for the article. | ||
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prosatan
Romania9381 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
.Great writeup! Can't wait to be tomorrow ! I really hope for great matches ! | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On January 17 2017 07:12 Freezard wrote: I think the whole Flash-best-progamer-in-all-of-esports is exaggerated, yes he was the greatest player of all time in BW if we're talking pure skills but that's not really surprising since that's the same case in every sport - sports evolve and players get better both physically and tactically, it's pretty natural for currently active players to be the best. However, some people have to pave way for the evolution of sports and that is for me an underrated feat, it takes someone special to do that as well, usually in esports it's about pushing out strategies that no one else had thought about which becomes new metas. You have to compare all these things relatively to when the player played, as well as what competition they had, it's pretty complicated really. While I agree with all these points and how they relate to ranking "GOAT" players, Flash is kind of special in that he was both the consensus best player ever and also the best player relative to his peers for the longest period of time. I definitely would say other players were more influential or even more important to the game, and it's totally fine if you use that definition to mean "greatest". I was speaking purely in terms of total skill and skill relative to the competition. On January 17 2017 06:00 LRM)TechnicS wrote: No, because Flash eco-cheesed and went barracks first way too often vs JD. If he thought it was that unlikely Jaedong would beat him he would play standard almost every game in a matchup that is broadly considered in favour of terran and not deviate too much. His build order choices rather indicate that he was not at all confident going against Jaedong in a standard TvZ. I feel like flash probably has a better understanding of game theory than you do. | ||
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meenamjah
Canada51 Posts
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zelderan
United States163 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On January 16 2017 19:19 FlaShFTW wrote: KT Rolster was nicknamed KT FlaSh back then and Hwaseong OZ was Jaedong OZ as well. KT didn't have enough consistency with Hoejja, Action, Stats, ForGG, etc back then with their only really "consistent" player being Violet (Rest in Peace). OZ had slightly better players with Hiya and Killer but only Killer was ever "consistent" too after taking to his mentor. You guys have a good point, but let me fill in on the details Lecaf Oz was not carried by Jaedong through 2007 and 2008. Anytime, Hiya and ForGG were key players in OZs success during these years. After Anytime went to military before 08-09 proleague, ForGG transferred to KT after Winners League 2009 and Hiya ended his 1,5 years, in the aftermath of that same Winners League, of being a solid terran (in PL) into a solid, but an inconcistent one, then and only then did Oz turn into what you refer as "Jaedong OZ". Jaedong continued to be, along with Flash and Bisu, the strongest proleague player until the end of kespa BW. But they were almost never close to winning any teamleagues since the Final in August 2009 when Fantasy stopped Jaedong OZ in their/his tracks - beating Jaedong two times and Hiya once. "Kt Flash'" story is the opposite of "JD OZ". Flash was a 15-16 year old kid, who was the only player of any worth in KT through 2007 and most of 2008. Signing Luxury prior to SPL 08-09 did improve things somewhat, but not much really since he dissapointed in Proleague relative to his success in individual leagues. The team that was once a powerhouse of first generation legends, now the same legends had turned well fed and "old" and could not compete anymore with the younger generations. Flash was carrying KT, but since he was doing it even more alone than Jaedong would do later (he would always have Hiya by his side after all), KT was not close to winning any leagues until Winners league in march 2010. Violet was the only really consistent player for KT? Thats not true. If you want to talk about consistency in teamleagues there was few better than Stats. Basically Violet was the second best player behind Flash from Winners League 2009 until one year later when newcomer Stats overtook the torch. Stats basically never slumped in team league from that moment until the end of kespa BW, 2 years later. KT would have not been able to compete like they did with SKT in those last two years, if it was not for Flash AND Stats. Off course it did help they had good players like ForGG, Action (who joined them prior to SPL 10-11) and occasionally Violet (RIP), but Flash and Stats was like the "Batman and Robin" of teamleagues. Bisu being Superman off course  Killer and Hiya was inconsistent, but they did help Jaedong in the Winners League in 2011 to reach third place. There is that. But imo Killer was not better than Action, they were pretty close overall. Anyways, Thanks for the article Plexa! It was an amazing read. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On January 17 2017 09:07 meenamjah wrote: "Without Jaedong, it’s likely Flash would be the unquestionable greatest of all time." um... Flash IS the unquestioned greatest of all time. I disagree. So that proves your statement wrong | ||
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FvRGg
68 Posts
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