On January 05 2017 18:10 parkufarku wrote: Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thank you Zero. We always knew TvZ was vastly imbalanced matchup, especially in the Kespa days. Flash should be required to give back some of his awards.
When he says that TvZ balance was worse in the KeSPA days, I think that he is talking about a theoretical absolute balance rather than empirical relative balance. As he mentioned, leagues used maps to balance the matchups in practice. This means that even if the theoretical absolute balance was worse, Zerg still had a chance against good Terran thanks to maps evening things out. So I guess Flash can keep his awards?
When he says that TvZ balance is okay now, I think that he is saying that Zerg has a chance against good Terrans on more maps than before. This is evidenced by Terran pros who whine about Blue Storm and Tau Cross because of mutalisks (and, in the case of Tau Cross, also the difficulty of making the late mech switch).
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
If it makes you feel better, 1&2s pursuit is to get the massive amount of 3s on board.
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
It's what the scene has turned into. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's what KeSPA did with their power. It's what Blizzard did with their power. It's what the current generous donators do today. The difference is, KeSPA abandoned Brood War once it became less profitable, and Blizzard used it to put an end to professional Brood War. For all the despicable things you blame the donators of doing, they are the sole reason we are able to watch Brood War content. The level some of the streamers have to stoop to are the consequences of our inaction when Blizzard ended professional Brood War, it's what happens random people with money to spare get the power in place of KeSPA.
Nobody is saying the current scene is perfect, or even okay, from the heights it once had. It's pretty fucking far from okay. However, it's all we have. You speak of a brighter future for Brood War, a more reasonable way to sustain Brood War. May I ask, how much did you do to help Brood War personally? What gives you the moral high ground over these down right rotten donators that makes clowns out of these streamers.
Good fans? What defines a good fan? Someone who realizes the ways in which a healthy scene should be going in, yet does nothing about it? Where were the good fans when Blizzard took the entire scene to the ground? Where were the good fans to stop these despicable donators making clowns out of the streamers? Where were you all?
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
It's what the scene has turned into. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's what KeSPA did with their power. It's what Blizzard did with their power. It's what the current generous donators do today. The difference is, KeSPA abandoned Brood War once it became less profitable, and Blizzard used it to put an end to professional Brood War. For all the despicable things you blame the donators of doing, they are the sole reason we are able to watch Brood War content. The level some of the streamers have to stoop to are the consequences of our inaction when Blizzard ended professional Brood War, it's what happens random people with money to spare get the power in place of KeSPA.
Nobody is saying the current scene is perfect, or even okay, from the heights it once had. It's pretty fucking far from okay. However, it's all we have. You speak of a brighter future for Brood War, a more reasonable way to sustain Brood War. May I ask, how much did you do to help Brood War personally? What gives you the moral high ground over these down right rotten donators that makes clowns out of these streamers.
Good fans? What defines a good fan? Someone who realizes the ways in which a healthy scene should be going in, yet does nothing about it? Where were the good fans when Blizzard took the entire scene to the ground? Where were the good fans to stop these despicable donators making clowns out of the streamers? Where were you all?
Probably because he is also a donor. He mentioned it in his own post below:
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
I really dislike words like "scene" and concepts such as "useless fucks", that I believe might stem from a certain toxic piece on the cycle of scenes that I've seen circulated. Nothing is improved by being taken too seriously. If viewing a match that is available for free as entertainment is a preposterous act, I don't know how anything can ever be compatible with the outside world. One day BW will die and till then people should watch it if they find it fun.
On January 06 2017 10:43 neptunusfisk wrote: I really dislike words like "scene" and concepts such as "useless fucks", that I believe might stem from a certain toxic piece on the cycle of scenes that I've seen circulated. Nothing is improved by being taken too seriously. If viewing a match that is available for free as entertainment is a preposterous act, I don't know how anything can ever be compatible with the outside world. One day BW will die and till then people should watch it if they find it fun.
You're free to watch it. You're free to earn money from it. You're free to help in whatever financial capacity you have. But let's not pretend to be anything more than what we are. I think useless fucks is the appropriate phrase considering how people failed to collectively stop Blizzard from crippling Brood War permanently. Watching free content that you personally enjoy is not a heinous act. Just like you said, just watch it for free until it dies, and move on, like you have done, and like you will do.
It's from a news article back when the media covered all aspects of professional Brood War. Considering Flash had his brain analysed by fMRI, hand measurements were hardly ground breaking information.
Q: What were the mistakes you made in the Tving 2012 semifinals against Jangbi? A: In Game 4, I made one fewer drone than I did in practice using that build. I wonder how many more hydras I could have made if I had that extra drone. Also, the two-lurker drop I attempted near the end of the game was a total failure that gave Jangbi the timing to attack. Other than that, I knew that I was in trouble once he started moving out with his “hanbang”. In Game 5, I should really have finished him early with hydras. Also, because so many fans showed up for that match, the game booth was literally steaming from their collective body heat. I could not see because my glasses fogged up. I was also distracted by the thought of pausing the game and possibly being forced to forfeit if defogging my glasses was not a KeSPA-approved reason for pausing. I believe Jangbi was fated by the heavens to win that
Wow, that is just sick. This shows how messed up some of the KeSPA rules may have been...
Anyways, big thanks for this interview! So much interesting content in there.
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
It's what the scene has turned into. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's what KeSPA did with their power. It's what Blizzard did with their power. It's what the current generous donators do today. The difference is, KeSPA abandoned Brood War once it became less profitable, and Blizzard used it to put an end to professional Brood War. For all the despicable things you blame the donators of doing, they are the sole reason we are able to watch Brood War content. The level some of the streamers have to stoop to are the consequences of our inaction when Blizzard ended professional Brood War, it's what happens random people with money to spare get the power in place of KeSPA.
Nobody is saying the current scene is perfect, or even okay, from the heights it once had. It's pretty fucking far from okay. However, it's all we have. You speak of a brighter future for Brood War, a more reasonable way to sustain Brood War. May I ask, how much did you do to help Brood War personally? What gives you the moral high ground over these down right rotten donators that makes clowns out of these streamers.
Good fans? What defines a good fan? Someone who realizes the ways in which a healthy scene should be going in, yet does nothing about it? Where were the good fans when Blizzard took the entire scene to the ground? Where were the good fans to stop these despicable donators making clowns out of the streamers? Where were you all?
Probably because he is also a donor. He mentioned it in his own post below:
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
Not just a donor, but he has also held meetings with sponsors across the world trying to make deals that will help create Korean Leagues.
On January 05 2017 03:14 f10eqq wrote: Interesting that he said TvZ balance is due to marine micro being > muta micro. Wish you had a follow up question on the lategame mech switch since I think that's what most people thought lead to the imbalance on certain maps like FS. I guess he thinks mech isn't that difficult to deal with when you have an eco lead, but mutalisk can't do enough in the early game to secure an economic advantage if Terran players are perfect with their marine control.
Yes, it was a bit confusing. He actually said that the thinks that it is impossible for a zerg to beat a good terran due to marine micro>muta micro. When i read that i thought that he was talking about the development of today (like i think the questioner was referring to). My heart therefore sunk a bit. But then he points out that he believes that the balance was worse during the kespa era because of the longer practice schedule and therefore better marine micro. So basically what he was saying was that in general t>z, which is no news and not a problem since p>t and z>p. He also finished the paragraph by saying that he "actually thinks that tvz balance is okay nowadays".
Recently Hero showed us that the late mech switch can convincingly be dealt with in the Ro16 against Last and Jaedong vs Mong aswell. But i'm not an expert on the matter.
Also a confusing term is "strategy maps" as oppsoed to macro maps. In korea they use the word "strategy" to describe what we would call "cheese".
it has been a problem in maps like fs. Zerg's winrate shot up when they started playong on different maps. We really need to start getting rid of fs and placing circuit breaker instead.
On January 05 2017 18:10 parkufarku wrote: Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thank you Zero. We always knew TvZ was vastly imbalanced matchup, especially in the Kespa days. Flash should be required to give back some of his awards.
When he says that TvZ balance was worse in the KeSPA days, I think that he is talking about a theoretical absolute balance rather than empirical relative balance. As he mentioned, leagues used maps to balance the matchups in practice. This means that even if the theoretical absolute balance was worse, Zerg still had a chance against good Terran thanks to maps evening things out. So I guess Flash can keep his awards?
When he says that TvZ balance is okay now, I think that he is saying that Zerg has a chance against good Terrans on more maps than before. This is evidenced by Terran pros who whine about Blue Storm and Tau Cross because of mutalisks (and, in the case of Tau Cross, also the difficulty of making the late mech switch).
There's no such thing as two different types of balance. Yes maps were used to help balance, but when that happens, you know one race is stronger than another, its a sign of admission. And the fact that a race can abuse a map more (cliffs on natural = death for Z / P) just meant that the race itself is inherently faulty and broken.
He's not saying TvZ is ok now, but he's saying it's bad, and it was even worse back in Kespa days (when Flash won his awards).
You can deny all you want, but Zero is right. A good Terran will not lose to a good Zerg unless he makes mistakes / gets heavily outplayed. It's too bad BW is decades old; Terran should've been nerfed but they never had good community feedback back then.
EPT
