EPTDoes anyone have maps Flash vs Jaedong played on?
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/211_Jaedong/games#tblt-3193-1-default-0-flash | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:41 LucasWoJ wrote: While it's true that FvJ was played on somewhat T-sided maps, sometimes very heavily T-sided maps, this is really an inadequate reason to conclude that flash was "in fact lesser than jaedong." http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/211_Jaedong/games#tblt-3193-1-default-0-flash Really speaks to how good jaedong was. Jaedong still was 25:26 on t sided maps even though tvz is t>z | ||
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Shinrei
United States241 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On March 22 2016 07:34 Shinrei wrote: Nah... Flash proved he could beat Jaedong on heavily zerg favored maps as well... Namely Katrina. Go look, Jaedong's only 3 losses on Katrina out of 22 games were to Flash. that was only three losses. Go look at the statistics | ||
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Jealous
10253 Posts
In other words, although racial and map imbalance may have existed, I doubt it had as direct of an influence on JvF as people will speculate. Another thing to note is that statistically speaking, many maps from the era did not have a satisfactory sample size to judge games from. Again, the fact that ChoboBTeamZerg's games and Jaedong's games count equally in that already low number of games played gives even more variance to the sample. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On March 22 2016 10:02 Jealous wrote: On the other hand, why do we assume that racial balance applies to S-tier players? Savior proved that during his era, winning ZvT on maps that were so heavily T>Z that it was silly. If you remove Jaedong's wins from some of the maps claimed to be Z>T, and Flash's from those claimed T>Z, you would likely have much more balanced numbers. In other words, although racial and map imbalance may have existed, I doubt it had as direct of an influence on JvF as people will speculate. Another thing to note is that statistically speaking, many maps from the era did not have a satisfactory sample size to judge games from. Again, the fact that ChoboBTeamZerg's games and Jaedong's games count equally in that already low number of games played gives even more variance to the sample. lol come on man. There is no way a S tier zerg can beat a S tier terran on polaris rhapsody or match point. Map plays a huge role. | ||
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Jealous
10253 Posts
On March 22 2016 10:20 Shinokuki wrote: lol come on man. There is no way a S tier zerg can beat a S tier terran on polaris rhapsody or match point. Map plays a huge role. Actually, Jaedong beat Flash on Polaris Rhapsody twice. They are 2-2 head-to-head on that map. He also beat Light 2-0 on that map. Light's TvZ, in my opinion, was as good if not better than Flash's. You are of course entitled to your own opinion but I don't think anyone can say Light is not S-tier TvZ. The map has an aggregate TvZ of 27-22, which is a 55% winrate. First of all, that does not scream imbalance to me. As far as two player maps go (which, if I'm not mistaken, have been historically not in Zerg's favor), PR does not seem impossible to win, as proven by Jaedong himself. Secondly, any statistician will tell you that 49 games is not a statistically significant sample. Thirdly, if we look at how our understanding of popular maps has evolved (as has the meta), I think it is impossible to conclusively say that the 55% WR is representative of what the true balance of the map is; given more time in the map pool, more practice, and more live games, it is possible that the winrate would have converged on 50%. It is not a fundamentally flawed map like Tears of the Protoss was, for example. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/163566-project-idea-flash-v-jaedong-highlight-reel im talking about the 2 part video of xPulsAr which somehow doesnt exist anymore.... anybody has this video? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10253 Posts
On March 22 2016 10:20 Shinokuki wrote: lol come on man. There is no way a S tier zerg can beat a S tier terran on polaris rhapsody or match point. Map plays a huge role. dude at first you actually started to have a believeable argument, now you're just being a whiny jaedong fan who, after reading the recent flash article, has to insert himself into the equation and start something. I think everyone will agree that there is a slight imbalance in matchup in the form of T>Z>P>T at high levels of play. But like other people have said, at the very pinnacle peak, such imbalances really don't mean that much. Why did savior have a godly like 70+% ZvT on horrible ZvT maps AKA Reverse Temple, Longinus? Can you explain that one if you're so big on "map plays a huge role"? | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On March 22 2016 13:47 FlaShFTW wrote: dude at first you actually started to have a believeable argument, now you're just being a whiny jaedong fan who, after reading the recent flash article, has to insert himself into the equation and start something. I think everyone will agree that there is a slight imbalance in matchup in the form of T>Z>P>T at high levels of play. But like other people have said, at the very pinnacle peak, such imbalances really don't mean that much. Why did savior have a godly like 70+% ZvT on horrible ZvT maps AKA Reverse Temple, Longinus? Can you explain that one if you're so big on "map plays a huge role"? Savior revolutionized how to play zerg. Jaedong just perfected that revolutionzed zerg to fullest. Flash perfected terran as well. There is no room for big skill gap created by revolution. When everyone's skills are refined and honed especially in 2010/2011 era you just cant get those high rates on terran favored maps anymore. Give me a jaedong statistics on those maps for 2010/2011. If its 65%+ ill believe you | ||
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Jealous
10253 Posts
On March 22 2016 14:01 Shinokuki wrote: Savior revolutionized how to play zerg. Jaedong just perfected that revolutionzed zerg to fullest. Flash perfected terran as well. There is no room for big skill gap created by revolution. When everyone's skills are refined and honed especially in 2010/2011 era you just cant get those high rates on terran favored maps anymore. Give me a jaedong statistics on those maps for 2010/2011. If its 65%+ ill believe you So you went from saying that Jaedong can't beat S-tier Terrans on Polaris Rhapsody and Match Point to now needing 65% winrate, conveniently ignoring the post I made that contradicted your earlier statement? Ok. Jaedong vT on Match Point, 66.67% Jaedong vT on Polaris Rhapsody, 60.00% with 2-2 vs. Flash and 2-0 vs. Light I wouldn't go so far as to call you a desperate fanboy like Flashftw did (look at his name for a reason as to why he did), but I don't think anyone needs to further justify Jaedong's 25-26 vs. Flash. That is effectively 50-50. Yes, Flash won more leagues. But head-to-head, they are even. | ||
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cha0
Canada508 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote: THere's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps? Can you link to the the thread/posts of this Korean Jaedong vs Flash controversy? | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On March 22 2016 14:01 Shinokuki wrote: Savior revolutionized how to play zerg. Jaedong just perfected that revolutionzed zerg to fullest. Flash perfected terran as well. There is no room for big skill gap created by revolution. When everyone's skills are refined and honed especially in 2010/2011 era you just cant get those high rates on terran favored maps anymore. Give me a jaedong statistics on those maps for 2010/2011. If its 65%+ ill believe you Savior also faced an era of incredibly good Terrans (oov/nada) and managed to thrash them on awful for zerg maps and still make it look like it was zerg that was actually imbalanced. maps play a huge role, but i think players also play a huge role as well | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On March 22 2016 15:56 gngfn wrote: The premise of the thread is flawed anyway. Flash isn't considered better because of his narrow lead in the H2H matchup vs. Jaedong, he's considered better because he achieved a greater level of dominance against the entire field. FBH was 8-3 career against Savior but no one considers FBH the better player. Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places. | ||
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Jealous
10253 Posts
On March 22 2016 16:23 Shinokuki wrote: and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places. So you're just going to keep making biased claims without responding to anyone's logical arguments and evidence. Ok. As for your most recent claim, just gonna leave this here: How can Jaedong win 8 finals if the competition outside of Flash was stiff as well? Or how about this guy, almost at 50%? Please man, now you're just dishonoring Jaedong by making outlandish claims -_-; Focus more on what he actually achieved and less on some relatively bullshit map imba excuses and pure fantasy please. Thread should be closed imo, can't argue with a brick wall. | ||
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