EPTDoes anyone have maps Flash vs Jaedong played on?
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/211_Jaedong/games#tblt-3193-1-default-0-flash | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:41 LucasWoJ wrote: While it's true that FvJ was played on somewhat T-sided maps, sometimes very heavily T-sided maps, this is really an inadequate reason to conclude that flash was "in fact lesser than jaedong." http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/211_Jaedong/games#tblt-3193-1-default-0-flash Really speaks to how good jaedong was. Jaedong still was 25:26 on t sided maps even though tvz is t>z | ||
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Shinrei
United States237 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On March 22 2016 07:34 Shinrei wrote: Nah... Flash proved he could beat Jaedong on heavily zerg favored maps as well... Namely Katrina. Go look, Jaedong's only 3 losses on Katrina out of 22 games were to Flash. that was only three losses. Go look at the statistics | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
In other words, although racial and map imbalance may have existed, I doubt it had as direct of an influence on JvF as people will speculate. Another thing to note is that statistically speaking, many maps from the era did not have a satisfactory sample size to judge games from. Again, the fact that ChoboBTeamZerg's games and Jaedong's games count equally in that already low number of games played gives even more variance to the sample. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On March 22 2016 10:02 Jealous wrote: On the other hand, why do we assume that racial balance applies to S-tier players? Savior proved that during his era, winning ZvT on maps that were so heavily T>Z that it was silly. If you remove Jaedong's wins from some of the maps claimed to be Z>T, and Flash's from those claimed T>Z, you would likely have much more balanced numbers. In other words, although racial and map imbalance may have existed, I doubt it had as direct of an influence on JvF as people will speculate. Another thing to note is that statistically speaking, many maps from the era did not have a satisfactory sample size to judge games from. Again, the fact that ChoboBTeamZerg's games and Jaedong's games count equally in that already low number of games played gives even more variance to the sample. lol come on man. There is no way a S tier zerg can beat a S tier terran on polaris rhapsody or match point. Map plays a huge role. | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
On March 22 2016 10:20 Shinokuki wrote: lol come on man. There is no way a S tier zerg can beat a S tier terran on polaris rhapsody or match point. Map plays a huge role. Actually, Jaedong beat Flash on Polaris Rhapsody twice. They are 2-2 head-to-head on that map. He also beat Light 2-0 on that map. Light's TvZ, in my opinion, was as good if not better than Flash's. You are of course entitled to your own opinion but I don't think anyone can say Light is not S-tier TvZ. The map has an aggregate TvZ of 27-22, which is a 55% winrate. First of all, that does not scream imbalance to me. As far as two player maps go (which, if I'm not mistaken, have been historically not in Zerg's favor), PR does not seem impossible to win, as proven by Jaedong himself. Secondly, any statistician will tell you that 49 games is not a statistically significant sample. Thirdly, if we look at how our understanding of popular maps has evolved (as has the meta), I think it is impossible to conclusively say that the 55% WR is representative of what the true balance of the map is; given more time in the map pool, more practice, and more live games, it is possible that the winrate would have converged on 50%. It is not a fundamentally flawed map like Tears of the Protoss was, for example. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/163566-project-idea-flash-v-jaedong-highlight-reel im talking about the 2 part video of xPulsAr which somehow doesnt exist anymore.... anybody has this video? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10154 Posts
On March 22 2016 10:20 Shinokuki wrote: lol come on man. There is no way a S tier zerg can beat a S tier terran on polaris rhapsody or match point. Map plays a huge role. dude at first you actually started to have a believeable argument, now you're just being a whiny jaedong fan who, after reading the recent flash article, has to insert himself into the equation and start something. I think everyone will agree that there is a slight imbalance in matchup in the form of T>Z>P>T at high levels of play. But like other people have said, at the very pinnacle peak, such imbalances really don't mean that much. Why did savior have a godly like 70+% ZvT on horrible ZvT maps AKA Reverse Temple, Longinus? Can you explain that one if you're so big on "map plays a huge role"? | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On March 22 2016 13:47 FlaShFTW wrote: dude at first you actually started to have a believeable argument, now you're just being a whiny jaedong fan who, after reading the recent flash article, has to insert himself into the equation and start something. I think everyone will agree that there is a slight imbalance in matchup in the form of T>Z>P>T at high levels of play. But like other people have said, at the very pinnacle peak, such imbalances really don't mean that much. Why did savior have a godly like 70+% ZvT on horrible ZvT maps AKA Reverse Temple, Longinus? Can you explain that one if you're so big on "map plays a huge role"? Savior revolutionized how to play zerg. Jaedong just perfected that revolutionzed zerg to fullest. Flash perfected terran as well. There is no room for big skill gap created by revolution. When everyone's skills are refined and honed especially in 2010/2011 era you just cant get those high rates on terran favored maps anymore. Give me a jaedong statistics on those maps for 2010/2011. If its 65%+ ill believe you | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
On March 22 2016 14:01 Shinokuki wrote: Savior revolutionized how to play zerg. Jaedong just perfected that revolutionzed zerg to fullest. Flash perfected terran as well. There is no room for big skill gap created by revolution. When everyone's skills are refined and honed especially in 2010/2011 era you just cant get those high rates on terran favored maps anymore. Give me a jaedong statistics on those maps for 2010/2011. If its 65%+ ill believe you So you went from saying that Jaedong can't beat S-tier Terrans on Polaris Rhapsody and Match Point to now needing 65% winrate, conveniently ignoring the post I made that contradicted your earlier statement? Ok. Jaedong vT on Match Point, 66.67% Jaedong vT on Polaris Rhapsody, 60.00% with 2-2 vs. Flash and 2-0 vs. Light I wouldn't go so far as to call you a desperate fanboy like Flashftw did (look at his name for a reason as to why he did), but I don't think anyone needs to further justify Jaedong's 25-26 vs. Flash. That is effectively 50-50. Yes, Flash won more leagues. But head-to-head, they are even. | ||
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cha0
Canada504 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote: THere's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps? Can you link to the the thread/posts of this Korean Jaedong vs Flash controversy? | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On March 22 2016 14:01 Shinokuki wrote: Savior revolutionized how to play zerg. Jaedong just perfected that revolutionzed zerg to fullest. Flash perfected terran as well. There is no room for big skill gap created by revolution. When everyone's skills are refined and honed especially in 2010/2011 era you just cant get those high rates on terran favored maps anymore. Give me a jaedong statistics on those maps for 2010/2011. If its 65%+ ill believe you Savior also faced an era of incredibly good Terrans (oov/nada) and managed to thrash them on awful for zerg maps and still make it look like it was zerg that was actually imbalanced. maps play a huge role, but i think players also play a huge role as well | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On March 22 2016 15:56 gngfn wrote: The premise of the thread is flawed anyway. Flash isn't considered better because of his narrow lead in the H2H matchup vs. Jaedong, he's considered better because he achieved a greater level of dominance against the entire field. FBH was 8-3 career against Savior but no one considers FBH the better player. Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places. | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
On March 22 2016 16:23 Shinokuki wrote: and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places. So you're just going to keep making biased claims without responding to anyone's logical arguments and evidence. Ok. As for your most recent claim, just gonna leave this here: How can Jaedong win 8 finals if the competition outside of Flash was stiff as well? Or how about this guy, almost at 50%? Please man, now you're just dishonoring Jaedong by making outlandish claims -_-; Focus more on what he actually achieved and less on some relatively bullshit map imba excuses and pure fantasy please. Thread should be closed imo, can't argue with a brick wall. | ||
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cha0
Canada504 Posts
On March 22 2016 16:23 Shinokuki wrote: and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places. So when you said there is this topic of controversy in the Korean community, that was just made up as a backstory for how you feel or are there actually some threads/posts of this on their forums? | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
On March 22 2016 17:22 cha0 wrote: So when you said there is this topic of controversy in the Korean community, that was just made up as a backstory for how you feel or are there actually some threads/posts of this on their forums? Come now, do you really have to ask that question given what you've seen so far? | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote: There's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps? Any chance you could link this controversial topic? Without a source, it's just your word. | ||
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Lisitsa
Korea (South)29 Posts
Just for facts: The mentioned JD vs Flash games in Katrina were played on the original version Katrina, which was T favored in TvZ due to the ridiculous amount of minerals it offered within its main and natural. It was Katrina SE, the renewed version which reduced the amount of minerals, that did favor Z. Both of Flash's Katrina wins against JD in Bacchus OSL and Gom TV MSL were on the original version. I believe JD and Flash played each other in Katrina SE once, in one of the GOM classic events, where JD won. If you look at the statistics of the maps where JD and Flash played each other, most will be slightly T favored - but in my opinion that is because there simply are relatively few maps that favor Z in TvZ. Since Boxer's time it is only rarely that we see a map that do favor Z in that matchup (whereas a ton of maps favored Z in ZvP), therefore I believe it is more with the generic state of Brood War TvZ rather than specific maps. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10154 Posts
On March 22 2016 16:23 Shinokuki wrote: and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places. by that logic, flash would have won 1 more league if Jaedong hadn't been as dominant. you honestly sound like one of this sc2 balance whiners. just stop. you're making a fool out of yourself while disrespecting two of the greatest scbw players ever. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On March 22 2016 15:56 gngfn wrote: The premise of the thread is flawed anyway. Flash isn't considered better because of his narrow lead in the H2H matchup vs. Jaedong, he's considered better because he achieved a greater level of dominance against the entire field. FBH was 8-3 career against Savior but no one considers FBH the better player. Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. You're starting from a premise that Flash is the best, which I don't think everyone can actually agree on. There's many ways to interpret the stats, and there have been convincing arguments for Jaedong in the past. Or at least there was this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/429156-a-case-for-jaedong-why-he-was-superior-to-flash Though honestly my opinion is the same as it was in that thread. In another interesting thread, we also saw that for Jaedong Flash Bisu their stats were actually T>P>Z . Bisu's PvZ was the stuff of madness, and Flash never had to face it. By comparison Bisu's PvT was kind of weak (though certainly enough to beat most players). JvT and JvZ were Jaedong's hot matchups, and of course Flash's record is impressive to stand up to Jaedong. Flash was strong enough to be at least even with top 3 or 4 at any time, but I never felt he was so convincing as to be the undisputed best. We really didn't have a bonjwa after Savior. Jaedong went to team 8, Flash got surgery on his arm. We got lots of Fantasy and Stork and Jangbi finals. I really admire Flash and love to watch him play, but that admiration is at most equal to Jaedong, and maybe less so. We want to call either of these players the best because they are such wonderful, interesting people and competitors, but they are rivals in an even truer sense than Boxer Yellow were. Very hard to look at maps or a one game advantage and be like 'well clearly this one was superior.' When they were in their prime it was impossible to give either one a significant edge in a BoX. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On March 22 2016 18:10 Seeker wrote: Any chance you could link this controversial topic? Without a source, it's just your word. its mostly in ygosu.com starcraft section. It was controversial. I can't seem to find it since it was like a week ago. | ||
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On March 23 2016 07:21 Shinokuki wrote: its mostly in ygosu.com starcraft section. It was controversial. I can't seem to find it since it was like a week ago. Okay well please try your best to locate the source or something else that does talk about this topic because otherwise we will have to close it. | ||
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Ritha
United States29 Posts
That said, people are so ridiculous. Yes, maps appear slightly Terran favored when Flash was dominant. But that also might be because Terrans were ahead of the learning curve, and Flash was in dominant form messing with the stats. I watched every single one of those Flash vs JD finals live, and Flash out played JD. JD made mistakes, Flash capitalized. That said, JD is the second best player of all time, zero doubts. Now, Light has nothing to do with this at all. Light was a TvZ sniper. Wtf does that have to do with anything? Was Skyhigh just as good as Flash because he is 50/50 with him? Was July as good as Bisu because he is 50/50 with him? The competition outside of Flash for JD in the 2010 season was low. If it wasn't, he wouldn't have been in all those finals. He wouldn't have had a 70% win rate. In my eyes Flash at his peak was better than JD at his peak. But I just wish the times hadn't forgotten that JD was nearly as dominant in 2009 as Flash was in 2010... | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote: There's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps? It doesn't have as much to do with the maps, as the matchup. A large percentage of Terrans have TvZ as their best matchup. There are essentially no Zergs that have ZvT as their best matchup. This comes down to fundamental differences in strategic and tactical flexibility and effectiveness within the matchups (in large part caused by fundamental unit interactions/efficiency). All else being equal, a theoretically equally skilled Terran player will have a disproportionately high winrate, vs an equally skilled Zerg. Consequently, an even winrate in the ZvT matchup, does not equate to even skill levels. Also, Julyzerg has said that Jaedong would be the best player in the world if he only had to practice one matchup. Jaedong is probably the most mentally strong player ever. He has a high winrate in matches even when he loses the first game/s, while Flash does quite poorly if he loses the first game/s. All in all, it's fairly obvious that Jaedong and Flash are the 2 best players ever. I don't think it's controversial to favor Jaedong, but it's very close regardless. | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
On March 23 2016 11:18 Ritha wrote: This thread annoys me, because it hits close to home. I love me some JD. In college I would stay up all night to watch all his matches. He is now, and forever will be my favorite eSports figure. That said, people are so ridiculous. Yes, maps appear slightly Terran favored when Flash was dominant. But that also might be because Terrans were ahead of the learning curve, and Flash was in dominant form messing with the stats. I watched every single one of those Flash vs JD finals live, and Flash out played JD. JD made mistakes, Flash capitalized. That said, JD is the second best player of all time, zero doubts. Now, Light has nothing to do with this at all. Light was a TvZ sniper. Wtf does that have to do with anything? Was Skyhigh just as good as Flash because he is 50/50 with him? Was July as good as Bisu because he is 50/50 with him? The competition outside of Flash for JD in the 2010 season was low. If it wasn't, he wouldn't have been in all those finals. He wouldn't have had a 70% win rate. In my eyes Flash at his peak was better than JD at his peak. But I just wish the times hadn't forgotten that JD was nearly as dominant in 2009 as Flash was in 2010... I brought up Light because he was undoubtedly an S-class TvZ, second or equal to Flash; it was in response to OP's claims that Jaedong couldn't beat S-class T on those maps, which is absurd. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On March 22 2016 18:38 Lisitsa wrote: I'm Korean, and I'm not seeing any threads related to this topic in any Korean e-sports community that I know of. Just for facts: The mentioned JD vs Flash games in Katrina were played on the original version Katrina, which was T favored in TvZ due to the ridiculous amount of minerals it offered within its main and natural. It was Katrina SE, the renewed version which reduced the amount of minerals, that did favor Z. Both of Flash's Katrina wins against JD in Bacchus OSL and Gom TV MSL were on the original version. I believe JD and Flash played each other in Katrina SE once, in one of the GOM classic events, where JD won. If you look at the statistics of the maps where JD and Flash played each other, most will be slightly T favored - but in my opinion that is because there simply are relatively few maps that favor Z in TvZ. Since Boxer's time it is only rarely that we see a map that do favor Z in that matchup (whereas a ton of maps favored Z in ZvP), therefore I believe it is more with the generic state of Brood War TvZ rather than specific maps. Twice, and it was 1-1 on Katrina SE and out of 35 games played the map was 16-19 T-Z hardly a huge imbalance | ||
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
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calgar
United States1277 Posts
On March 23 2016 22:20 ClanRH.TV wrote: Why do legitimate forum questions and discussions always end up with raging balanced discussions that can't be proven? This entire thread is a prime example. I'm not sure it started as a legitimate forum question so much as a poorly-supported OP with an agenda to (try to) prove. The weasel word support of a yet-to-be posted Korean source and dismissive "lol educate yourself ur dumb for disagreeing" attitude tends to lead to this kind of thing. | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2227 Posts
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Jealous
10145 Posts
On March 23 2016 22:20 ClanRH.TV wrote: Why do legitimate forum questions and discussions always end up with raging balanced discussions that can't be proven? This entire thread is a prime example. Where to begin? Your whole interpretation of this thread is flawed at best. 1. The question alone may have been legitimate at the start, but the OP approached consequent replies with inherent bias and a blind eye to evidence which contradicted his preexisting notions. This is a terrible foundation for constructive discussion. Therefore, it is a stretch to call this a "legitimate" discussion. The direct answer to the question ("what maps did Flash play JaeDong on?") can be found in the TLPD which is by no means an obscure tool, one that was linked multiple times in this thread. However, because OP came with an agenda, discourse on the facts and figures answering his question was doomed from the start. 2. The question itself initiates a balance discussion, albeit in terms of map balance. Hardly anyone in this thread mentioned anything about actual racial balance between Zerg and Terran. So, your assertion that this discussion devolved into a balance discussion is foolish if you meant map balance, as that was the initial topic of the thread, or straight up false if you meant overall racial balance. 3. I don't see anything even close to balance "rage" in these replies. The closest I see stems from the OP who made outlandish claims about how successful JaeDong would have been had Flash not been his rival for the throne and his baseless opinions on the viability of ZvT on certain maps. Other than that, discussion seems to be largely civil, barring the instances where OP continued to ignore constructive posts proving his ignorance on the matter. 4. Saying that "it can't be proven" is a myopic approach given the data we have on the subject. While it is true that most of the maps that are in question don't have a statistically significant amount of games played on them, that does not change the fact that the consequent assertions of OP are fundamentally false. For example, his assertion that JaeDong can't win on maps such as Match Point and Polaris Rhapsody against S class Terrans is disproven with links to his stats against Terran on those maps, in which he is even or ahead of S class TvZ opponents. This effectively "proves" that though the maps maybe have had leanings in one way or another, they were not significant enough to prevent JaeDong from winning on them. .: QED Your assessment of this thread is faulty. TL;DR: Instead of contributing to a thread you found subpar, however warped your perception of it may be, you decided to complain in broad strokes about all threads of this nature, which adds absolutely nothing. | ||
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
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