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A case for Jaedong: Why he was superior to Flash
Warning: This post is purely on the subject of the Starcraft: Brood War professional scene, and does not delve into their careers outside of it, it is also ridiculously long, and I'm guessing not a whole lot meaningful unless you're really into the subject like I am. Proceed at your own risk.
Context, it’s important to know why certain things turned out the way they did. The two greatest players in the modern era of Starcraft, couldn’t have asked for a better rival. However, it is almost unanimously decided that Flash was the better out of the two. And why wouldn’t it be that way? Flash had more success despite having a shorter career, and most importantly, had the last laugh by continually denying Jaedong his place as the top dog in the Starcraft scene. I would be a fool to question that Jaedong was actually superior to Flash when all evidence points otherwise, or does it? I decided to take every single case available to make a case why Jaedong was a superior player to Flash.
1) The truth behind the map pool, and who Lady Luck was backing the entire time.
Yes I know, zerg was supposed to be a little disadvantaged against terran, and it’s old to rehash that argument when quite clearly the game itself was one of the most perfectly balanced RTS game the world had ever seen. However, excluding the results of these two players, would you care to guess exactly how fair the battle ground set for these two were?
Jaedong has a huge sample of televised matches versus Flash. 52 of them (with almost a perfectly split record of 27-25 in favour of Flash), in fact, and whether they were KeSPA sanctioned or not, it was clear that the match between the two was a battle for pride, and the all-important title of who was the better of LeeSsang at the time. They battled in 36 separate maps (including all the different versions).
Now, due to the small number of matches on some of the maps, the statistics will be skewed somewhat, but before exposing any flaws, here are numbers as they are. The details are listed below.
Out of those 52 battles, Flash had the upper hand in 38 (73% out of all the games) of the games in terms of map balance, and there were 11 games (21%) where the map statistics in favour of terran seemed to suggest out-right imbalance (a win rate of 60% or more for one race), while the only game where Jaedong (2% of the games compared to Flash’s 21%) had the absolute statistical advantage was that famous match on Flight-Dreamliner, something that supporters of Flash were keen to point out on when Flash’s consistent triumph over Jaedong seemed to be influenced by map imbalance.
+ Show Spoiler +
Python 1.1
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 106-84 (56:44) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Katrina
- 1-2 in favour of Flash.
- 81-61 (57:43) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Blue Storm
- 1-1 equally split between the two.
- 40-49 (55:45) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Loki 2
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 12-6 (67:33) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Zodiac
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 86-63 (58:42) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Troy
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 55-41 (57:43) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Fantasy 2
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 53-60 (53:47) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Baekmagoji
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 9-6 (60:40) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Blue Storm 1.2
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 66-68 (51:49) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Othello
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 44-20 (69:31) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Katrina SE
- 1-1 equally split between the two.
- 15-16 (52:48) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Harmony
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 3-4 (57:43) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Destination 1.1
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 145-137 (51:49) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Neo Harmony
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 18-19 (51:49) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Sin Chupung-Ryeong
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 42-33 (56:44) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Rush Hour 3.1
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 111-79 (58:42) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Return of the King
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 47-48 (51:49) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Fighting Spirit 1.3
- 3-2 in favour of Jaedong.
- 132-114 (54:46) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
New Heartbreak Ridge 2.1
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 8-5 (62:38) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Match Point 1.2
- 1-1 equally split between the two.
- 55-44 (56:44) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Ultimatum
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 3-3 (50:50) evenly split between two races without the record of the two.
Odd-Eye
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 21-17 (55:45) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Triathlon 1.1
- 1-1 equally split between the two.
- 18-21 (54:46) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Odd-Eye 2
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 21-19 (53:47) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Match Point 1.3
- 2-1 in favour of Flash.
- 72-59 (55:45) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Grandline SE
- 2-0 in favour of Flash.
- 30-21 (59:41) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Polaris Rhapsody
- 2-2 equally split between the two.
- 20-10 (67:33) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Odd-Eye 3
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 3-1 (75:25) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Eye of the Storm 1
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 47-43 (52:48) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Flight-Dreamliner
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 1-9 (90:10) in favour of zerg without the record of the two.
Tau Cross
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 73-61 (54-46) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Benzene
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 16-8 (67:33) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Circuit Breaker
- 2-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 37-32 (54:46) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Neo Aztec
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 6-6 (50:50) evenly split between two races without the record of the two.
Gladiator
- 1-0 in favour of Jaedong.
- 12-9 (57:43) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Ground Zero
- 1-0 in favour of Flash.
- 11-7 (61:39) in favour of terran without the record of the two.
Of course, the balance between the three races was never perfect, and it’s kind of expected for the vast majority of maps to favour terrans in the zerg-versus-terran match-up, even if it is by the slightest of margins. So why do I make such a big deal out of it?
It’s because of Jaedong’s near impeccable records on what are perceived to be “balanced” maps. Throughout the years, there had been a couple of maps that had hundreds of games played on them due to their timeless nature, no overly imbalanced match-ups, and more or less equal number of participation from each of the races (just as important as the scores of different match-ups, in my opinion, are the number of mirror match-ups for each of the races, especially maps used in the ProLeague, as it shows how welcoming a map is for each of the races).
So, starting from the 2007 season, the season where Flash made his debut, I’ll start going over the top five records of the players that played in maps that passed the following criteria. They are used to ensure that all three races are well represented, and the numbers aren’t skewed in any outstanding manner. The maps that passed will be listed in chronological order.
1) Used in the ProLeague, as maps solely created for the individual leagues rarely have enough data, and when the numbers are that low, the statistics are heavily influenced by the individual capabilities of the players involved.
2) If any of the match-ups have 60% or above win-rate for one of the races, the map is disqualified.
3) All match-ups, including mirror match-ups should have thirty games or above.
4) If one mirror match-up has an equal number, or more matches than the other two mirror match-ups combined, it clearly shows that the map is more welcoming for one race, as ProLeague entries are heavily based on racial balance (for example, a terran-friendly map will have excessive numbers of terran-versus-terran match-ups), and will be disqualified.
Sin Peaks of Baekdu
1. Jaedong: 18 wins 5 losses
2. Iris: 17 wins 4 losses
3. Stork: 15 wins 5 losses
4. sAviOr: 14 wins 5 losses
5. YellOw[ArnC]: 13 wins 5 losses
Flash: 1 win 4 losses
Tau Cross
1. Jaedong: 15 wins 7 losses
2. Free: 14 wins 6 losses
3. Stork: 13 wins 6 losses
4. Pusan: 12 wins 3 losses
5. Hwasin: 12 wins 5 losses
Flash: 4 wins 1 loss
Blue Storm
1. Jaedong: 21 wins 10 losses
2. Hwasin: 16 wins 7 losses
3. Luxury: 16 wins 8 losses
4. Flash: 15 wins 10 losses
5. Kal: 14 wins 5 losses
Destination
1. sKyHigh: 25 wins 6 losses
2. Bisu: 21 wins 7 losses
3. Flash: 21 wins 9 losses
4. Firebathero: 19 wins 8 losses
5. Kal: 19 wins 13 losses
Jaedong: 16 wins 8 losses
Medusa
1. Bisu: 25 wins 6 losses
2. Kal: 17 wins 4 losses
3. Shine: 12 wins 1 loss
4. JangBi: 13 wins 4 losses
5. Saint: 11 wins 2 losses
Jaedong: 11 wins 4 losses
Flash: 10 wins 3 losses
Fighting Spirit
1. Jaedong: 23 wins 8 losses
2. Bisu: 23 wins 10 losses
3. Snow: 21 wins 7 losses
4. Flash: 21 wins 10 losses
5. Effort: 16 wins 6 losses
Match Point
1. Kal: 21 wins 11 losses
2. Really: 19 wins 5 losses
3. Jaedong: 18 wins 4 losses
4. FanTaSy: 18 wins 10 losses
5. Flash: 17 wins 10 losses
Circuit Breaker
1. Jaedong: 20 wins 5 losses
2. Flash: 15 wins 5 losses
3. Sea: 15 wins 9 losses
4. Bisu: 12 wins 6 losses
5. Mind: 10 wins 6 losses
La Mancha
1. Flash: 12 wins 3 losses
2. soO: 11 wins 2 losses
3. Bisu: 10 wins 2 losses
4. Light: 10 wins 4 losses
5. JangBi: 10 wins 7 losses
Jaedong: 5 wins 7 losses
That’s 9 decently balanced maps with sufficient number of games, played thoroughly by all three races in all match-ups, spanning from 2007 to 2011. Five of those maps are topped by Jaedong, while only one is topped by Flash. There’s no smoke without fire, and this is partly the reason why there’s a saying in Korea that roughly translates into “of course, on fair maps it’s Jaedong”.
Here are the list of “Map of the Year” awards given out by KeSPA, starting from 2006. Looking back at the statistics, I would say the choices are pretty solid.
2006: Sin Peaks of Baekdu
2007: Blue Storm
2009: Destination
2010: Fighting Spirit
2011: Circuit Breaker
Guess what? Out of the five maps that were universally regarded as the best designed, and as balanced as it is humanly possible, Jaedong topped the lists on four of them, and was the highest out of his race on Destination. If all the maps were as well designed as the maps above, I personally believe that it’s not too much of a stretch to say that Jaedong could have done even better.
2) Results, and the context that goes with it.
Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve. That’s all this blog is about, really, and if you believe that Flash has had better results with his career, and should be celebrated above Jaedong, I don’t really disagree all that much with you. However, if you start to dissect all the little details of their careers, you’ll find that in some ways, Jaedong has the upper hand, and this is what I’ll mainly focus on. After all, it would be boring if Flash was so utterly out of reach, which I believe that he was not.
Okay, let’s start by giving Flash his dues. The guy has won more major individual leagues, and has had more success in the ProLeague in terms of trophies. However, I don’t want to stop there. I want to break things down, and see where Jaedong comes out on top.
First of all, how tough was the competition that these guys won? Surely, the reason why we weigh OGN StarLeague above GomTV Classics are not just because of the television exposure. Here’s one way of weighing how difficult it was to win a certain individual league. By counting the number of participants, we get to see exactly how open the competition was (it’s why an invitational tournament will never be rated that highly, because there’s always an aspect of “what if he was there”), and how high the interest was for the competition amongst the professionals if they were eligible for it. For example, I believe WCG Korea (basically an invitational tournament for the top KeSPA ranked players during its final years) is harder than the Grand Finals in terms of pure competitive value, despite the prestige, and more importantly the prize money being much higher for the latter. The higher the number of participants (professional players only), the more intense the competition I deem it to be, and will weigh it as such.
Here’s a full list of all the individual league victories (showdowns such as the one between Jaedong and Bisu don’t count, and I require a minimum of three professional players in a competition) that Jaedong and Flash has won throughout the years, and the number of participants for each of them.
Jaedong
1. eStars Seoul Festival 2007: 193 progamers participated
2. EVER OSL 2007: 199 progamers participated
3. GomTV MSL S4: 219 progamers participated
4. GomTV Classic S1: 57 progamers participated
5. WCG 2008 Korea: 24 progamers participated
6. Batoo OSL: 223 progamers participated
7. Bacchus OSL 2009: 220 progamers participated
8. WCG 2009 Grand Finals: 3 progamers participated
9. NATE MSL: 197 progamers participated
10. WCG 2010 Korea: 28 progamers participated
Total accumulative number of participants in individual leagues won: 1363
Flash
1. GomTV Invitational: 16 progamers participated
2. Bacchus OSL 2008: 226 progamers participated
3. GomTV Pre-Season Invitational: 4 progamers participated
4. GomTV Classic S2: 123 progamers participated
5. EVER OSL 2009: 202 progamers participated
6. Hana Daetoo MSL: 180 progamers participated
7. Korean Air OSL S2: 182 progamers participated
8. Bigfile MSL: 182 progamers participated
9. ABC Mart MSL: 134 progamers participated
Total accumulative number of participants in individual leagues won: 1249
As you can see, Flash’s numbers are kind of hurt by the dwindling number of professional gamers compared to the peak era of Starcraft when over 200 professional gamers would try out their luck in becoming the next StarLeague champion. Of course, I can see how the eStars Seoul Festival being worth more than ABC Mart MSL is somewhat flawed, but it does not change the fact that there were way more participants in that tournament, and if the rumours are to be believed, that tournament held a lot of meaning to a lot of the professional players due to its unique nature (a cut-throat RO256 tournament that ends within a couple of days, with almost all gamers being given an equal start).
But you can’t just count the victories! Flash had other good placements too! I hear you, but the fact of the matter is, Jaedong has been to more OSL/MSL finals (9 compared to 8 of Flash), more OSL/MSL semi-finals (12 compared to 11 of Flash), and has represented Korea more in WCG Grand Finals (3 times compared Flash’s 1), although, to be fair, Flash has a near perfect record for being present in the round of sixteen for all the major individual leagues he has participated in (21 to 18 of Jaedong), and Jaedong can’t touch him in that aspect, as well as the obvious one additional MSL victory that Flash will forever have in his advantage.
As you can see, Jaedong’s record in individual leagues compared to that of Flash, depending on how you interpret it, can be cut both ways. That’s despite the fact that zerg has 820 televised victories in OSL/MSL matches since 2007, compared to the higher number of 868 televised victories seen by the terran race. As expected, the poor protoss folks have only managed 632 victories, so as you can see, although Flash did play a big part in boosting that number, terrans have been statistically the most successful race in individual leagues in his era. Just in case someone wanted to know, if you take away both Jaedong, and Flash’s victories in the same era, terrans have won 718 matches, still higher than the 677 victories seen by the zerg race without Jaedong.
Enough with the racial imbalance! Even if terrans were slightly favoured, and even if Jaedong did go through more competition in his individual league victories, Flash was the undisputed king of the ProLeaague, and that swings in his favour!
Well, let’s take a closer look. First of all, let’s see how many victories each race has from all the regular, and post-seasons of ProLeague from 2007 to the last “true” season of 2010/2011.
Zerg: 1984
Terran: 2189
Protoss: 1900
Yes, there’s a reason why the famous phrase of “choose terran”, uttered by TT, for the future professional gamer hopefuls was so famous in Korea. Though I have not chosen to do so, if I included the numbers from the pre-2007 era, I’m pretty sure the statistical advantage the terran race as a whole holds would not change. But, enough with the moaning, let’s compare each of these two players seasons. Any top ten individual performances, and top two team performances will be listed.
2006 SKY ProLeague R1
Jaedong: 6 wins 5 losses (7th in terms of number of wins)
Flash: Did not participate
2006 SKY ProLeague R2
Jaedong: 11 wins 1 loss (1st in terms of number of wins)
Flash: Did not participate
2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1
Jaedong: 16 wins 7 losses (4th in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd)
Flash: 7 wins 3 losses
2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2
Jaedong: 14 wins 6 losses (4th in terms of number of wins, team places 1st)
Flash: 10 wins 8 losses
2008 Shinhan ProLeague
Jaedong: 11 wins 7 losses
Flash: 17 wins 8 losses (1st in terms of number of wins)
2008/2009 Shinhan ProLeague
Jaedong: 54 wins 21 losses (Joint-1st in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd)
Flash: 54 wins 19 losses (Joint-1st in terms of number of wins)
2009/2010 Shinhan ProLeague
Jaedong: 52 wins 21 losses (2nd in terms of number of wins)
Flash: 57 wins 16 losses (1st in terms of number of wins, team places 1st)
2010/2011 Shinhan ProLeague
Jaedong: 51 wins 23 losses (3rd in terms of number of wins)
Flash: 60 wins 19 losses (2nd in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd)
That’s two full-year seasons where Flash out-performs Jaedong, and four half-year seasons to one (due to Flash’s relatively later debut) where Jaedong was more noteworthy than Flash. Jaedong only places outside of the top ten individual performances in one season out of the eight he took part in, and that horrible ProLeague season had only 79 zerg victories, compared to the 203 victories at the hands of a terran player.
Flash does have the upper hand over Jaedong in the ProLeague whichever way you cut it, but it’s worth noting that no zerg player has managed to get more wins than Jaedong in the regular season of the ProLeague since the second half of 2006. That’s five full years at the top of the race, come rain or shine. Flash has managed that since 2008, which is still an impressive three years at the top, with an unfortunate end to the reign due to uncontrollable circumstances.
So in the regular ProLeague seasons that both players have participated in, Jaedong was responsible for 10.33% of the total number of victories achieved by the zerg race, while Flash was responsible for 9.64%. While I acknowledge the fact that Flash was superior to Jaedong in the ProLeague, Jaedong was relevant for a longer period due to his earlier debut, and was more of a pivotal figure for the race.
In conclusion, there’s still little doubt in my mind that Flash was indeed the more accomplished of the two, and as with all other things, history is written by the victors. I thought I’d challenge the idea to the best of my capabilities, and was happy to at least confirm some of my suspicions and gut feelings I had all along on the subject. The more I compared the two, the more outstanding these two players were, and in the end, despite my personal preference, there’s no end to how superlative these two players were, both in terms of absolute gaming mastery, and their insane out of the roof statistics they’ve accumulated over the years.
 
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5/5 for Jaedong > Flash ;D
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On September 15 2013 10:13 Birdie wrote:
5/5 for Jaedong > Flash ;D
Damn straight :D
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3/5 for the effort, but Flash>Jaedong still.
Obviously there are places where Jaedong comes out on top too as I would say that both players are indeed great and progamers have paper thin differences.
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Before I even read this, I half agreed (I rank them equal).
Map balance is a thing, but it's not the only factor. Did you include build order advantages? Or does that count as part of the skill? Well I guess that doesn't matter too much.
IMO these players both transcended the maps, especially in their matches with each other.
I would also say that ZvZ is much more volatile and difficult to be successful in than TvT (really the most stable of the mirrors).
JD suffered on Team 8, but I think most people thought of him as equal to Flash while he played on Oz.
Of the two, Jaedong is more of a trooper who will get at a huge disadvantage (like 12hat vs 9poolspeed) and still come out of it. Flash plays super defensive and has great expo timing and often just dominates the match when he wins. He will trooper it out too if he gets in a bad spot, but the dong gets way more scrappy I think.
The Ultimate Weapon, The Legend Killer.... It was going to take a platinum mouse for Flash to really convincingly knock Jaedong off the throne. If Oz had stayed together and the scene had held on, I could see them both still being threats.
If there's any argument for Jaedong surpassing Flash in this hypothetical, it might be more arm troubles for Flash. But as to who was better in their glory days?? It's not like Boxer v Yellow. They went super evenly. Flash gets remembered cause Jaedong on T8 was nerfed.
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as much as i am a giant fanboy of the dongjwa flash still achieved godhood and one of jd's OSLs was super ez (seriously, yarnc? lol)
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On September 15 2013 10:30 Chef wrote:
Before I even read this, I half agreed (I rank them equal).
Map balance is a thing, but it's not the only factor. Did you include build order advantages? Or does that count as part of the skill? Well I guess that doesn't matter too much.
IMO these players both transcended the maps, especially in their matches with each other.
I would also say that ZvZ is much more volatile and difficult to be successful in than TvT (really the most stable of the mirrors).
JD suffered on Team 8, but I think most people thought of him as equal to Flash while he played on Oz.
Of the two, Jaedong is more of a trooper who will get at a huge disadvantage (like 12hat vs 9poolspeed) and still come out of it. Flash plays super defensive and has great expo timing and often just dominates the match when he wins. He will trooper it out too if he gets in a bad spot, but the dong gets way more scrappy I think.
The Ultimate Weapon, The Legend Killer.... It was going to take a platinum mouse for Flash to really convincingly knock Jaedong off the throne. If Oz had stayed together and the scene had held on, I could see them both still being threats.
If there's any argument for Jaedong surpassing Flash in this hypothetical, it might be more arm troubles for Flash. But as to who was better in their glory days?? It's not like Boxer v Yellow. They went super evenly. Flash gets remembered cause Jaedong on T8 was nerfed.
I focused a lot on the racial imbalance due to the fact that this entire blog was inspired by my recent discovery that out of all the most highly lauded maps in the recent era, Jaedong had top placements in the vast majority of them, and the rest were just reinforcements into the commonly accepted fact of terran having a natural advantage over zerg. Jaedong did indeed do great regardless of map balance throughout his career, but when set free from the numerous variables set by unpolished maps, he really took off and dominated the competition to a degree that was unmatched in the modern era.
I would like to know if that were the case for other players in different eras, but I'm not as confident in my selection for the map pools, due to the ProLeague playing a much smaller part, my past recollections being not as extensive, so I can't really comment on the issue without doing some much needed research. All I can say for sure is, since Jaedong came into his own, he was almost untouchable on map pools that allowed Starcraft to be played as it should be.
It would actually be an interesting study of exactly what percentage of the games a player manages to overcome a build order deficit, but it's something that would need much discussion, hours of research, and a previously agreed-upon rules on exactly what constitutes a significant enough build order deficit, so we don't let our personal biases cloud our judgement. Researching Jaedong's zerg versus zerg match-ups would be a good place to start, but really, it would only be of value if we had someone to compare it with, and I'm not sure if there are any good candidates for zerg-versus-zerg players.
It's interesting how you characterize the two players, I actually have four barometers of rating players.
1) Mechanics. How proficient someone is at the execution of the game. Things such micro-management, multi-tasking at multiple fronts, and large scale army management. As a general rule of thumb, players with great mechanics tend to be good at mirror match-ups, although there are exceptions to the rule. Some examples of players in posessio of great mechanics would be NaDa in his prime, Jaedong for the zerg race, and Reach relative to other protoss players back in his prime.
2) Pre-game preparation. Basically a how you plan a game, it doesn't matter how great of a technique you have as a musician if the score written is complete garbage. This includes reading the tendencies of the players to prepare some counter-builds, being ahead of the metagame through setting trends unseen before, and predicting the flow of the game before it even happens. Iloveoov, and sAviOr would be the best examples.
3) In game decision making. People in Korea call it management of the game, and I find this element of the game hardest to judge. Much of it is dependent on the other factors, as having great mechanics enhances the number of correct decisions you can make, whereas extensive pre-game preparation can also cloud the divide between on the spot decision making, and rehearsed calls you make in the game in order to win. That being said, Flash, probably has some of the best decision making I've seen, and I really liked how Mind at his peak went about overcoming his enemies. Though I'm really not at a position to judge, I'd also say that Stork was a master at this. These are the kind of players that rarely let go of an advantageous position, and while Jaedong had some of the most mind-blowing comebacks, he also tended to blow huge leads in an odd fashion which makes me think that this wasn't his most valuable asset.
4) Mental fortitude. Basically the will to win, and making sure that the skills you have for the game translates into results. This would be one of Jaedong's biggest strengths in my opinion. It's so easy to go on a tilt, get intimidated, or get over-confident, and any of those things can ruin someone's game, no matter how godly they are at the game. BoxeR would be another example. Someone like Zero, or Free are the some of the examples I can think of, who stand out to me as players with good gaming ability, but lacking mental fortitude. I really have no idea how Zero failed to mark his spot when even someone like Great managed to reach the finals of an individual league.
As for the comparisons to BoxeR and YellOw, I believe if someone really took their time at it, they could argue something similar for YellOw, although the results between the two are even further apart. I'm almost certain that the stage set for these two legends was quite tilted in the favour for one before the game even began.
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I agree with you to some extent when you compare them head to head, though more on the maps part than the victories part. Though I do think that the reason people, including me, consider Flash stronger is not only their record vs each other, but also when facing other progamers. Jaedong would be considered to have the advantage vs most other pros, but we would still wonder "who is going to win". Flash, on the other hand, was considered nigh-invincible against nearly every pro in a set of games, except for Jaedong for awhile, then Jangbi and Fantasy at the very end of BW.
Still quite a well-written piece though and I enjoyed it.
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On September 15 2013 10:38 rauk wrote:
as much as i am a giant fanboy of the dongjwa flash still achieved godhood and one of jd's OSLs was super ez (seriously, yarnc? lol)
It's the kind of judgement some people make when all they remember are latter bracket stages. The group stages were heavily stacked, and a lot of the good players were cramped on one side of the brackets. If you argue that it was one of the easiest finals, I would agree, but the tournament as a whole cannot be said as such in my opinion.
Jaedong was placed with the hottest player outside of the traditional Taek-Beng-LeeSsang quartet, EffOrt at the peak of his powers, Flash, a player that still was regarded as the best terran at the time, and YarnC, who benefited from the relatively zerg-friendly map pool at the time and had emassed a bigger number of ProLeague victories than the likes of Stork, and FanTaSy. He then met Zero, again, one of the top zergs of the time, then FanTaSy, who was pushing for the top terran spot with his showings in the OGN. In terms of the calibre of the opponents, and the competition involved, it was not that low as one might imagine, and really, if all we recall are the let-down we witnessed in the finals, and start to rate player's performances by "epicness" rather than actual results, we might as well call sAviOr as the greatest ever.
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one day i BELIEVE that in SC2 we will see jaedong and flash dominate every WCS/GSL/dreamhack whatever they call it
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As a JD fan I was disappointed too but you bring in a new perspective
On September 15 2013 10:13 Birdie wrote:
5/5 for Jaedong > Flash ;D
+1 :D
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What you miss here is that Flash thrashed Jaedong over and over again when it mattered most. In 2011, three SL finals - 3-0 Hana Daetoo MSL, 3-2 Bigfile MSL, and 3-1 Korean Air 2 OSL - all went in favor of Flash. That's the main reason why people hold Flash over Jaedong.
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On September 15 2013 13:44 Shady Sands wrote:
What you miss here is that Flash thrashed Jaedong over and over again when it mattered most. In 2011, three SL finals - 3-0 Hana Daetoo MSL, 3-2 Bigfile MSL, and 3-1 Korean Air 2 OSL - all went in favor of Flash. That's the main reason why people hold Flash over Jaedong.
Another interesting fact is that Flash beat Jaedong in playoffs in all 3 OSLs he won.
Beat JD 2-1 in Bacchus OSL quarter-final (JD at the time was defending OSL champ), went on to win that OSL.
Beat JD 2-0 in Ever OSL quarter-final (JD at the time was 2x defending OSL champ), went on to win that OSL.
Beat JD 3-1 in Korean Air S2 OSL final, and won that OSL.
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On September 15 2013 13:44 Shady Sands wrote:
What you miss here is that Flash thrashed Jaedong over and over again when it mattered most. In 2011, three SL finals - 3-0 Hana Daetoo MSL, 3-2 Bigfile MSL, and 3-1 Korean Air 2 OSL - all went in favor of Flash. That's the main reason why people hold Flash over Jaedong.
Yeah but his point was this was also during the period when the maps in tvz were considered terran favored. It was widely considered that, which I think is what the OP mentioned in a different way showcasing how on balanced maps jaedong had the best win rate on them compared to flash.
I remember MSL/OSL, especially during Flashes domination everyone would talk about how every map but 1 were good for terran (don't know the map name, but it was zerg favored zvt).
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On September 15 2013 13:44 Shady Sands wrote:
What you miss here is that Flash thrashed Jaedong over and over again when it mattered most. In 2011, three SL finals - 3-0 Hana Daetoo MSL, 3-2 Bigfile MSL, and 3-1 Korean Air 2 OSL - all went in favor of Flash. That's the main reason why people hold Flash over Jaedong.
That's an argument based on sentiments and selective bias. If that's what you truly believe, when it mattered most for Jaedong when he was doing back to back OGN StarLeague victories, Flash was doing his best to replicate Sea and was getting knocked out of the group stages, in the most mediocre of fashion. Jaedong just happened to be good enough to reach the finals when Flash was at his finest form, and while Jaedong wasn't good enough to overcome the general deficit zerg has had to struggle with (most people are completely cool with most of the maps being in favour of terran, and the ones that really hits zergs hard are like some kind of tests for zergs to replicate what people imagine sAviOr overcame) against a player of Flash's calibre, like he was able to in their previous encounters, the points I've made should have made it more than clear that on the best designed maps of any era from late 2006 to 2011, Jaedong was the scariest thing in the world.
Sure Flash was able to stomp Jaedong to the ground on maps such as Odd-Eye 3, and Grand Line SE, but check out who happens to have the upper hand on maps such as Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker, maps that are universally acknowledged as being the best balanced maps of the era you were talking about. I'm not even talking about maps that were in favour of zergs such as Icarus, I'm talking about well designed, timeless maps that were the best indicators for who was truly the best, not who had the best results on a scale that was already tipped one way. I'm not arguing against the results, I'm arguing against the context of these results. Of course, people don't remember these things, but I do, and that's why I did this post, not because I forgot about Flash's triumphs, but because I want to acknowledge the things Jaedong was truly the best at, and why that makes him in my mind superior to Flash.
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oh man.. zergliner. 2 hatch muta and 3 hatch muta, how many times Sea died to that on team 8.
brings back memories dang
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Why bother with these 2 schmucks when there's Bisu?
on a serious note:
The main reason why Flash overshadowed JD was because of Flash's opponents and he trampled them regardless of the maps. It's not about the win-lose ratio or map statistics, it's about how Flash dominated the scene. Sure, there are ups and downs but when he plays in his top form, devastation will happen. No other player have replicated this.
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I think nearly at the end that in terms of head to head
it was Stork > rest of TBLS?
Stork definitely have Bisu and Jaedong's number.
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On September 15 2013 17:51 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 13:44 Shady Sands wrote:
What you miss here is that Flash thrashed Jaedong over and over again when it mattered most. In 2011, three SL finals - 3-0 Hana Daetoo MSL, 3-2 Bigfile MSL, and 3-1 Korean Air 2 OSL - all went in favor of Flash. That's the main reason why people hold Flash over Jaedong. That's an argument based on sentiments and selective bias. If that's what you truly believe, when it mattered most for Jaedong when he was doing back to back OGN StarLeague victories, Flash was doing his best to replicate Sea and was getting knocked out of the group stages, in the most mediocre of fashion. Jaedong just happened to be good enough to reach the finals when Flash was at his finest form, and while Jaedong wasn't good enough to overcome the general deficit zerg has had to struggle with (most people are completely cool with most of the maps being in favour of terran, and the ones that really hits zergs hard are like some kind of tests for zergs to replicate what people imagine sAviOr overcame) against a player of Flash's calibre, like he was able to in their previous encounters, the points I've made should have made it more than clear that on the best designed maps of any era from late 2006 to 2011, Jaedong was the scariest thing in the world.
Lol, it might have mattered the most to Jaedong, but it definitely wasn't what mattered most to the BW fanbase. Flash's 2010 year pretty much cemented him as the Last Bonjwa.
And blaming map imba for Flash's 2010 roflstomping of JD is pretty disingenuous when JD cheesed on nearly every single map we think is 'imba', and hence never had to feel any imba at all.
Sure Flash was able to stomp Jaedong to the ground on maps such as Odd-Eye 3
Give me a break, JD killed himself on Odd-Eye 3 and a whole slew of other maps with piss-poor decisionmaking. Did you even watch those finals sets?
and Grand Line SE,
You're using JD going 4pool as an indication Flash won that map only because of imba. That's circumstantial evidence at best.
but check out who happens to have the upper hand on maps such as Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker, maps that are universally acknowledged as being the best balanced maps of the era you were talking about.
Date DESC League Map Result
+ 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Flight-Dreamliner Win
+ 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Grand Line SE Win
+ 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Polaris Rhapsody Loss
+ 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Eye of the Storm Win
+ 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Polaris Rhapsody Win
+ 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Triathlon Loss
+ 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Fighting Spirit Loss
+ 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Odd-Eye 3 Win
+ 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Polaris Rhapsody Win
+ 10-08-22 WCG2010 Korea Fighting Spirit Loss
+ 10-08-22 WCG2010 Korea Polaris Rhapsody Loss
+ 10-08-22 WCG2010 Korea Grand Line SE Win
+ 10-05-29 Hana Daetoo MSL Match Point Win
+ 10-05-29 Hana Daetoo MSL Odd-Eye 2 Win
+ 10-05-29 Hana Daetoo MSL Triathlon Win
Those are the games that Flash beat Jaedong on in that stretch of time we're looking at here. This is a set of 4 head to head series over a time period of 3 months. Only a few of these maps are acknowledged as being "imba T" -
Polaris
Grand Line
Odd-Eye 3
Take them out, and the record goes from 10-5 to 6-3.
I'm not even talking about maps that were in favour of zergs such as Icarus, I'm talking about well designed, timeless maps that were the best indicators for who was truly the best,
Wrong - you can't look only at balanced maps to figure out who is the best. You have to look at the stakes involved in the matches. And when the stakes where the highest in head-to-head matches between Flash and Jaedong, Flash won - and might I add, in dominating fashion, on Dreamliner, a map so blatantly zerg-biased that it was practically autowin Z if T spawned in one of the two locations.
not who had the best results on a scale that was already tipped one way. I'm not arguing against the results, I'm arguing against the context of these results. Of course, people don't remember these things, but I do, and that's why I did this post, not because I forgot about Flash's triumphs, but because I want to acknowledge the things Jaedong was truly the best at, and why that makes him in my mind superior to Flash.
Of course, you can make your claims all day long, but at the end of the line, the only claim that you're laying for Jaedong is that he was able to win on maps you consider 'balanced and good'. That's an extreme level of subjectivity. On any scale the BW fanbase (including Korean commentators) considers objective, Flash was the better player of the two, the best player in TBLS, and the final Bonjwa.
QED
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On September 16 2013 06:25 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 17:51 Letmelose wrote:On September 15 2013 13:44 Shady Sands wrote:
What you miss here is that Flash thrashed Jaedong over and over again when it mattered most. In 2011, three SL finals - 3-0 Hana Daetoo MSL, 3-2 Bigfile MSL, and 3-1 Korean Air 2 OSL - all went in favor of Flash. That's the main reason why people hold Flash over Jaedong. That's an argument based on sentiments and selective bias. If that's what you truly believe, when it mattered most for Jaedong when he was doing back to back OGN StarLeague victories, Flash was doing his best to replicate Sea and was getting knocked out of the group stages, in the most mediocre of fashion. Jaedong just happened to be good enough to reach the finals when Flash was at his finest form, and while Jaedong wasn't good enough to overcome the general deficit zerg has had to struggle with (most people are completely cool with most of the maps being in favour of terran, and the ones that really hits zergs hard are like some kind of tests for zergs to replicate what people imagine sAviOr overcame) against a player of Flash's calibre, like he was able to in their previous encounters, the points I've made should have made it more than clear that on the best designed maps of any era from late 2006 to 2011, Jaedong was the scariest thing in the world. Lol, it might have mattered the most to Jaedong, but it definitely wasn't what mattered most to the BW fanbase. Flash's 2010 year pretty much cemented him as the Last Bonjwa. And blaming map imba for Flash's 2010 roflstomping of JD is pretty disingenuous when JD cheesed on nearly every single map we think is 'imba', and hence never had to feel any imba at all. Show nested quote +Sure Flash was able to stomp Jaedong to the ground on maps such as Odd-Eye 3 Give me a break, JD killed himself on Odd-Eye 3 and a whole slew of other maps with piss-poor decisionmaking. Did you even watch those finals sets? You're using JD going 4pool as an indication Flash won that map only because of imba. That's circumstantial evidence at best. Show nested quote +but check out who happens to have the upper hand on maps such as Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker, maps that are universally acknowledged as being the best balanced maps of the era you were talking about. Date DESC League Map Result + 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Flight-Dreamliner Win + 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Grand Line SE Win + 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Polaris Rhapsody Loss + 10-09-11 Korean Air OSL S2 Eye of the Storm Win + 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Polaris Rhapsody Win + 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Triathlon Loss + 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Fighting Spirit Loss + 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Odd-Eye 3 Win + 10-08-28 Bigfile MSL Polaris Rhapsody Win + 10-08-22 WCG2010 Korea Fighting Spirit Loss + 10-08-22 WCG2010 Korea Polaris Rhapsody Loss + 10-08-22 WCG2010 Korea Grand Line SE Win + 10-05-29 Hana Daetoo MSL Match Point Win + 10-05-29 Hana Daetoo MSL Odd-Eye 2 Win + 10-05-29 Hana Daetoo MSL Triathlon Win Those are the games that Flash beat Jaedong on in that stretch of time we're looking at here. This is a set of 4 head to head series over a time period of 3 months. Only a few of these maps are acknowledged as being "imba T" - Polaris Grand Line Odd-Eye 3 Take them out, and the record goes from 10-5 to 6-3. Show nested quote +I'm not even talking about maps that were in favour of zergs such as Icarus, I'm talking about well designed, timeless maps that were the best indicators for who was truly the best, Wrong - you can't look only at balanced maps to figure out who is the best. You have to look at the stakes involved in the matches. And when the stakes where the highest in head-to-head matches between Flash and Jaedong, Flash won - and might I add, in dominating fashion, on Dreamliner, a map so blatantly zerg-biased that it was practically autowin Z if T spawned in one of the two locations. Show nested quote + not who had the best results on a scale that was already tipped one way. I'm not arguing against the results, I'm arguing against the context of these results. Of course, people don't remember these things, but I do, and that's why I did this post, not because I forgot about Flash's triumphs, but because I want to acknowledge the things Jaedong was truly the best at, and why that makes him in my mind superior to Flash. Of course, you can make your claims all day long, but at the end of the line, the only claim that you're laying for Jaedong is that he was able to win on maps you consider 'balanced and good'. That's an extreme level of subjectivity. On any scale the BW fanbase (including Korean commentators) considers objective, Flash was the better player of the two, the best player in TBLS, and the final Bonjwa. QED
If you are going to give in to media hype, and somehow weigh performance based on fan anticipation, you'll end up going down a very slippery slope. How is it somehow a slight against Jaedong that he got slaughtered at the highest stages of the game due to being good enough to overcome the map imbalance against players of Light's calibre, but not Flash's, yet Flash relative ineptitude when he had trouble overcoming someone as thoroughly mediocre as Kwanro on map pools that favoured zerg doesn't since it got less media exposure? Media hype, and fan anticipation, and basing results based upon those kind of sentiments aren't what I'm discussing. If you want to discuss the semantics of how "important" and "well remembered" these games were, you're just repeating what the media report and general consensus tells you without being able to look at things objectively. I'm not here to discuss what the fan-base thought.
If you're just going by what the media told you and thought of the showdown between Flash and Jaedong as the ultimate decider of who would get remembered as the victor, I have nothing more to tell you.
Map pools, does play a significant factor in the game, and the decisions Jaedong made was influenced by the imbalance of the map pools, and hampered the number of strategic choices he could have made, which led to him being thoroughly predictable, and Flash was there to capitalize on that. I'm not here to argue that Flash was the better of the two under the situation, however, there's a world of difference on maps such as Fighting Spirit (still a map that terrans are favoured slightly over zergs), where Jaedong is comfortable enough to go pool-first, and then follow that up with standard-play. Then there were maps where Jaedong was forced over-extend strategically, knowing that standard play on those maps would not be viable against someone like Flash.
Seriously, imagine if the map pool had consisted of mainly zerg favoured maps to the same degree Flash had over Jaedong, do you seriously believe that Flash would have had the same success? I'm here to argue that he wouldn't, and I have statistics on my side to prove that. Had Flash played Jaedong on maps like God's Garden, Icarus, Battle Royal, and had been thrown a bone in maps like Fighting Spirit, I can tell you with certainty that he would have been on tilt too against someone of Jaedong's calibre. Yes, what happened happened, and Flash won on those map pools, and nothing can take that away from him, but I'm here to argue that on balanced maps, Jaedong was the better player.
Only three? If 40% of the games played are played on maps that are out-right imbalanced in terms of statistics, do you seriously believe that it wouldn't affect the players involved? It's out-right ridiculous that you think Jaedong's desperation moves somehow dismisses the imbalance of the map pools. Players do go on tilt, and for a player of Jaedong's mental fortitude to do that, shows you how giving someone a significant advantage in 40% of the series (that shows Flash in the best possible light, I might add), will affect them negatively.
Flight-Dreamliner was more of a poorly designed map that had starting position imbalance, and although it is always pointed out, it was a single game played on one map (that didn't even give Jaedong the highly imbalanced starting position) in the vast ocean of matches the two played together. The period you decide who was so pivotal in deciding the better between the two had multiple maps that gave Flash a blatant upper hand. If you're here to argue that Flash was the far superior player under the conditions set, I would agree with you ten times out of ten, but like I've stated, we've never seen the reverse where Jaedong had a significant portion of the map pools in his favour in a highly anticipated series between the two. You could argue that we'll never know, but do you think that it is a coincidence that Jaedong has a sickest record out of any professional players on officially awarded maps due to their good balance since 2006? I'm not even going to count maps like Battle Royal, and God's Garden, where non-zerg players didn't even dare to face off against him. I'm talking about maps were universally acknowledged as letting gamers play the game as it should be, rather than trying something gimmicky in order to overcome a deficit set against them from the start. There's only a handful of those maps, and I don't think it is luck that Jaedong happens to have the best record in those by quite some distance.
I've selected my own criterias for choosing the maps, but I've also taken in the choices made by KeSPA in their "Map of the Year" awards, something that takes in the views of professional players and coaches. Sin Peaks of Baekdu, Blue Storm, Destination, Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker are maps that I didn't select out of thin air to show Jaedong in a better light. They are maps that were acknowledged by everyone to be the best designed maps of the era, and Jaedong has the best record for every single one except one. Flash was superior to Jaedong on the environment that was set, and I'm not here to argue that, which you seem to be mistaking. I'm here to argue that under a fictional environment where all maps would be well designed as Fighting Spirit, Jaedong would have been the greatest. It's not what you want to hear, but the numbers are on my side.
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EPT
