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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
My brain tells me otherwise, but I never listen to it. On September 15 2013 13:11 Kingsky wrote: one day i BELIEVE that in SC2 we will see jaedong and flash dominate every WCS/GSL/dreamhack whatever they call it If this happens, then they will never come play BroodWar again. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
That Jaedong can or can't do it says very little about whether Flash should be able to or not. Consider maps that are imbalanced PvZ or ZvP, do you really think imbalances in those matchups are as easy to overcome as a strong TvP map, for instance? Similarly, not all matchups are as easy or hard to reliably dominate lower skilled players in. Consider the difference between a map that is 'balanced' and a map where hydra busts work exactly 50% of the time. 50% is balanced, right? It's really not so simple to just compare across race like you say. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 16 2013 08:20 Lachrymose wrote: One thing you have to keep in mind is the ability for one race to overcome map imbalance isn't equal to the ability for another race to. That Jaedong can or can't do it says very little about whether Flash should be able to or not. Consider maps that are imbalanced PvZ or ZvP, do you really think imbalances in those matchups are as easy to overcome as a strong TvP map, for instance? Similarly, not all matchups are as easy or hard to reliably dominate lower skilled players in. Consider the difference between a map that is 'balanced' and a map where hydra busts work exactly 50% of the time. 50% is balanced, right? It's really not so simple to just compare across race like you say. Agreed. Also, certain factors, such as rush distance, placement of the expansions, size of the chokes, the angle at which the mineral patches are set at, all influence the game to a huge degree. For example, the protoss versus zerg match-up is down right unplayable unless the natural expansion is designed so that the sim city for the buildings can be optimized. However, I also believe that numbers don't lie if you consider all the factors involved. If a map makes late game zerg versus terran unplayable, but allows for a high success rate of mutalisk harassment, and gives both races an equal footing in terms of win rates depending on the how well both players are at that one particular aspect of the game, the map can be deemed as balanced despite being very poorly designed and thoroughly one dimensional. If a certain map that is so terrible for any other strategic choice other than a hydralisk bust, yet allows for a 50% win rate no matter how predictable the bust is, it is a poorly designed map, but the balance is fair. To be even more extreme, a two player map with one starting point having no mineral patches at all would allow for a "fair" win rate for all the players involved, despite being a terribly designed map. Some maps were, to put it quite simply, just poorly designed, AND statistically favoured for certain races. What I want to point out, however, is the fact that the maps I've listed chosen by KeSPA as their picks for the maps of the year, were some of the most balanced maps that were humanly possible to make, and had decent balance across all match-ups, as well as having a sizable amount of appearances from all three races. The maps were in no shape or form a disadvantageous map pool for Flash, as maps such as Destination, Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker ALL had terran-versus-terran as its most played mirror match-up, which suggests that coaches were more than trigger happy to send their terran players to play on these maps in ProLeague matches. In fact, the numbers from these map pools are in a way, the most free from all the variables we have to take into consideration when comparing players from different races. These map pools, despite not being perfect, had hundreds of games, maintained balance to an acceptable degree, and due to these qualities, were used in multiple leagues for their timeless excellence. If Jaedong cannot be judged accurately on these maps, what makes people so certain that they can judge him on flawed maps just because they were more numerous in number? | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On September 16 2013 08:52 Letmelose wrote: However, I also believe that numbers don't lie if you consider all the factors involved. If a map makes late game zerg versus terran unplayable, but allows for a high success rate of mutalisk harassment, and gives both races an equal footing in terms of win rates depending on the how well both players are at that one particular aspect of the game, the map can be deemed as balanced despite being very poorly designed and thoroughly one dimensional. If a certain map that is so terrible for any other strategic choice other than a hydralisk bust, yet allows for a 50% win rate no matter how predictable the bust is, it is a poorly designed map, but the balance is fair. To be even more extreme, a two player map with one starting point having no mineral patches at all would allow for a "fair" win rate for all the players involved, despite being a terribly designed map. Some maps were, to put it quite simply, just poorly designed, AND statistically favoured for certain races. This is really short-sighted though, especially given you agreed with what I said. What if Mutalisk harassment wins games between medium tier players but drops off substantially as the skill level of the players goes up? This means the map appears balanced if you view all skill-ranges, but the balance drops off sharply as the skill of both players rises. The Hydralisk example is even worse and frankly it's hard to believe you can't see how awful it is. If a Hydra bust is 50% from a low tier player against low, medium and high tier players that shows pretty conclusively that there is a problem with viewing the statistics devoid of context. It's outright saying that being better doesn't increase your winrate in this example, for either player, which directly contradicts the points you're trying to make. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
"2006 SKY ProLeague R1 Jaedong: 6 wins 5 losses (7th in terms of number of wins) Flash: Did not participate 2006 SKY ProLeague R2 Jaedong: 11 wins 1 loss (1st in terms of number of wins) Flash: Did not participate 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Jaedong: 16 wins 7 losses (4th in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd) Flash: 7 wins 3 losses 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2 Jaedong: 14 wins 6 losses (4th in terms of number of wins, team places 1st) Flash: 10 wins 8 losses 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 11 wins 7 losses Flash: 17 wins 8 losses (1st in terms of number of wins) 2008/2009 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 54 wins 21 losses (Joint-1st in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd) Flash: 54 wins 19 losses (Joint-1st in terms of number of wins) 2009/2010 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 52 wins 21 losses (2nd in terms of number of wins) Flash: 57 wins 16 losses (1st in terms of number of wins, team places 1st) 2010/2011 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 51 wins 23 losses (3rd in terms of number of wins) Flash: 60 wins 19 losses (2nd in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd)" I'm confused. Flash is ahead of Jaedong in 4 of those, more specifically the last four proleagues. He didn't participate in the 2006 so that doesn't count. Only one that Jaedong was better in by statistics is the 2007 which is one compared to the four of Flash so how can you say otherwise? :S I know you said that you are a fan of Jaedong and bias a bit but you're overly bias in some parts of your writeup. You keep talking about maps, about how maps were in favour of Terran etc... but what you don't consider is who are the players on those maps. What if Fantasy was playing against s2 for example? Regardless of the map, Fantasy would've been pegged the winner by a mile away. This is a major flaw in your argument. Statistics is good and all and in general, it can show trends and such but you need to look at who's playing on what map to determine just how imba a map is in terms of a certain race, basically the context. Yes, I'm aware that going back and see all the different matches that went on a map is very indepth analysis but if your argument rotates around that, best to do it to make it stronger(or weaker, who knows). Of course, more maps might be in Terran's favour but at the highest levels, players can overcome map imbalances and I don't think they are as relevant as if you had two players of less calibar playing on them. For example: If I was playing as a Terran against a Zerg and we are both D players, a map being in favour of Terran or Zerg would have a much more profound effect because we don't have the multitasking, decision making, etc... of Flash and Jaedong. From my perspective and as mentioned, Flash won when it mattered most. He entered the scene later than Jaedong yet his results are better. He's won him in head to head and denied his chances at winning more OSL/MSLs so many times that it would be nuts to even claim that Jaedong is the better player. Is Jaedong a beast? Yes, of course. Is he the best Zerg? well, some people will put Saviour on top because like Bisu, he revolutionized a matchup. In his case, it was ZvT. Either way, Jaedong is called the tyrant and recognized as one of the better players of the scene, likely 1st or 2nd best Zerg players and top 10 players of BW which is an immense achievement in itself. Heck, Flash is considered by a bonjwa and we've had so many people talk about Flash's mindset and why he is the perfect player and the best he is. If BW continued for a couple more years, we might've seen Flash even win more OSLs and claim the title of Best BW player for good. Btw, I have to say I'm not a big fan of how you seem to almost be saying that Flash was only winning against Jaedong due to the maps being in Terran's favour and rather than his skills. Luckily, Sandy Sands touched on that part really well and I don't need to elaborate on it lol. Otherwise, it was an interesting read. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
I've always thought JD to be the better player because he has ridiculously good control and builds and seemed to adapt most easily and best to things. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 16 2013 09:49 Lachrymose wrote: This is really short-sighted though, especially given you agreed with what I said. What if Mutalisk harassment wins games between medium tier players but drops off substantially as the skill level of the players goes up? This means the map appears balanced if you view all skill-ranges, but the balance drops off sharply as the skill of both players rises. The Hydralisk example is even worse and frankly it's hard to believe you can't see how awful it is. If a Hydra bust is 50% from a low tier player against low, medium and high tier players that shows pretty conclusively that there is a problem with viewing the statistics devoid of context. It's outright saying that being better doesn't increase your winrate in this example, for either player, which directly contradicts the points you're trying to make. I'm agreeing with you in that poorly designed maps that have fundamental flaws, and due to the nature of various match-ups, statistics cannot be taken at face value. However, if enough numbers have accrued, and the numbers have been found to be more or less even in distribution not only amongst the win rates, but the appearances of each races, that map will be automatically more valid than a map that has flawed design AND statistically skewed towards certain races. It's really hard to talk about this subject without specific examples, and as with all matters, I believe that none of the maps I've mentioned as being balanced had issues with being restricted to being balanced at only lower levels, or having problems with inducing one dimensional play. Even if they did to a certain degree, there's no questioning that these maps had far less problems with these issues that you have brought up than the average maps that were often flawed and plagued with imbalances of various nature. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 16 2013 10:41 BigFan wrote: Read your OP and tried to be as objective as possible but honestly, it didn't really convince me that Jaedong was the better player. Couple of things: "2006 SKY ProLeague R1 Jaedong: 6 wins 5 losses (7th in terms of number of wins) Flash: Did not participate 2006 SKY ProLeague R2 Jaedong: 11 wins 1 loss (1st in terms of number of wins) Flash: Did not participate 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Jaedong: 16 wins 7 losses (4th in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd) Flash: 7 wins 3 losses 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2 Jaedong: 14 wins 6 losses (4th in terms of number of wins, team places 1st) Flash: 10 wins 8 losses 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 11 wins 7 losses Flash: 17 wins 8 losses (1st in terms of number of wins) 2008/2009 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 54 wins 21 losses (Joint-1st in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd) Flash: 54 wins 19 losses (Joint-1st in terms of number of wins) 2009/2010 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 52 wins 21 losses (2nd in terms of number of wins) Flash: 57 wins 16 losses (1st in terms of number of wins, team places 1st) 2010/2011 Shinhan ProLeague Jaedong: 51 wins 23 losses (3rd in terms of number of wins) Flash: 60 wins 19 losses (2nd in terms of number of wins, team places 2nd)" I'm confused. Flash is ahead of Jaedong in 4 of those, more specifically the last four proleagues. He didn't participate in the 2006 so that doesn't count. Only one that Jaedong was better in by statistics is the 2007 which is one compared to the four of Flash so how can you say otherwise? :S I know you said that you are a fan of Jaedong and bias a bit but you're overly bias in some parts of your writeup. You keep talking about maps, about how maps were in favour of Terran etc... but what you don't consider is who are the players on those maps. What if Fantasy was playing against s2 for example? Regardless of the map, Fantasy would've been pegged the winner by a mile away. This is a major flaw in your argument. Statistics is good and all and in general, it can show trends and such but you need to look at who's playing on what map to determine just how imba a map is in terms of a certain race, basically the context. Yes, I'm aware that going back and see all the different matches that went on a map is very indepth analysis but if your argument rotates around that, best to do it to make it stronger(or weaker, who knows). Of course, more maps might be in Terran's favour but at the highest levels, players can overcome map imbalances and I don't think they are as relevant as if you had two players of less calibar playing on them. For example: If I was playing as a Terran against a Zerg and we are both D players, a map being in favour of Terran or Zerg would have a much more profound effect because we don't have the multitasking, decision making, etc... of Flash and Jaedong. From my perspective and as mentioned, Flash won when it mattered most. He entered the scene later than Jaedong yet his results are better. He's won him in head to head and denied his chances at winning more OSL/MSLs so many times that it would be nuts to even claim that Jaedong is the better player. Is Jaedong a beast? Yes, of course. Is he the best Zerg? well, some people will put Saviour on top because like Bisu, he revolutionized a matchup. In his case, it was ZvT. Either way, Jaedong is called the tyrant and recognized as one of the better players of the scene, likely 1st or 2nd best Zerg players and top 10 players of BW which is an immense achievement in itself. Heck, Flash is considered by a bonjwa and we've had so many people talk about Flash's mindset and why he is the perfect player and the best he is. If BW continued for a couple more years, we might've seen Flash even win more OSLs and claim the title of Best BW player for good. Btw, I have to say I'm not a big fan of how you seem to almost be saying that Flash was only winning against Jaedong due to the maps being in Terran's favour and rather than his skills. Luckily, Sandy Sands touched on that part really well and I don't need to elaborate on it lol. Otherwise, it was an interesting read. I'm mentioning that Jaedong has been relevant in the ProLeague for a longer period, just like NaDa has a superior overall record in individual leagues compared to Flash mostly due to his ridiculously long career. Plus, the ProLeague record is in favour of Flash, like I've already mentioned. I was just pointing out things that went in Jaedong's favour. It doesn't matter how you cut it. The numbers were in favour of terran by a noticable margin in any levels of the game like I've already mentioned, and it doesn't matter whether you just look at the ProLeague numbers, MSL numbers, OSL numbers, or adding or subtracting certain individuals from the statistics. Plus, I'm not just looking at the scores, I've also mentioned the appearances of the maps involved. If a map used in the ProLeague has a overwhelming number of appearances from the terran race, it goes to show that coaches were most certain of victory when sending their terran players to play on that map. You can make any number of excuses for why the numbers turned out the way they did, but the fact of the matter is that the terran race was the most succesful race compared to the other two races. Depending on how you interpret the numbers, it is up to argument how significant a margin, but the evidence is unrefutable in my opinion. Yes imbalance can be overcome, but considering how the smallest things can influence the direction of much bigger things, it is silly to simply ignore the clear imbalance involved, or pretend that it didn't really change anything, when the evidence points otherwise. Protoss players did well in leagues that had protoss-friendly maps, terran players did well in an era that had terran-friendly maps, and the same goes for the zerg race. There are exceptions to the rule, but by and large, these map pools played a significant enough role for any average-joe to notice a pattern, and I must question you, is it a coincidence that the best success Flash ever had against Jaedong also coincided with the time that had map pools that were undeniably difficult for the zerg race? I mean, I wouldn't even be making the case if Flash was also the undisputed best player on maps that were universally deemed to be balanced. It seems to convenient to say that Flash was better because he won when it mattered, because the map pool used when it mattered was tilted, and not only then, terran was the most successful race in all competitions in the modern era in terms of number of victories, and appearances, with or without the statistics from Flash. People who think sAviOr is a superior player to Jaedong do not know the details of their careers, and are relying on their selective memories of what imagine sAviOr did during his peak years, which was of course undeniably magical. People don't say sAviOr is the best because he revolutionized a match-up, they did it because the things he did was done in a dramatic nature, and had a lot of media hype around it. If you take sentiments out of it, I could argue that July was the greater player out of the two. A lot of people seem to be confusing that I'm arguing against Flash's results. I'm stating the following things, was the zerg versus terran match-up favoured towards the terran race? Yes. Was the terran race the most victories, and made the most number of appearances in individual leagues with or without Flash's numbers? Yes. Then it appears that there's an imbalance involved. Was Flash the best player by some distance on maps that were proven to be balanced and universally lauded as the best maps of the day? No. Then who was? Jaedong. Was it just the one map? No. It was on maps such as Tau Cross, Sin Peaks of Baekdu, Blue Storm, Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker, all of which are maps that would make the top ten lists of the best balanced maps of all time without question. Were the maps used in the professional scene well designed as those? No. Would Jaedong have been more successful had these well designed maps been used more, or more numerous in number? Who knows? I'm arguing that he would have, but it's really wishful thinking on my part, but I have yet to see anyone try to refute the other points, other trying to state things like imbalance can be overcome, or that Jaedong's superiority on balanced map doesn't prove that he was better, while him doing worse on imbalanced, or less well designed maps clearly does show that he was worse. | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
On September 16 2013 10:42 MarlieChurphy wrote: I think the main reason why everyone likes Flash more or thinks he is better is actually a couple of reasons combined. 1. He is the prodigy of Boxer/IloveOOv, he has arguably the best mechanics of any player ever, and iirc there are generally more terran fans and players. I've always thought JD to be the better player because he has ridiculously good control and builds and seemed to adapt most easily and best to things. Wouldn't that be Fantasy rather than Flash? SKT terran line and all. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
Also, my feeling is that the performance by top players is very influential. If Jaedong couldn't crack Flash on a certain map then there would be a lacking shining example for other zerg players, naturally they would lose more games on there as well. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
His 1rax expand against Zerg brought a new flavour to the machup that really tipped the scales more in favor of Terrans - regardless of map balance. And his Goliath use against Carriers really doomed Carrier builds for what seemed like two whole years. So the Terran imbalance in general should also be seen in light of these innovations. Jaedong was a beast however. Easily one of the most mechanically brilliant players to ever play on a professional level. Unfortunately I lost a lot of respect for him when he cheesed 2 times in a row against Flash in one of their series. Jeadong might have had a knack for winning on well balanced maps, but he was predictable and sometimes even stupid when playing longer series. I remember seeing a series in the OSL where the commentator predicted all Jaedongs strategies before each game. Apperently the other player (Flash? can't remember) did this as well, and used a perfect counter strategy to Jaedong in EVERY SINGLE GAME. So while Jeadong certainly was stronger in a match on equal footing, he was not the brightest strategist and made both buildorder and ingame decisions that wre highly questionable. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 17 2013 21:40 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: One fact that you seem to ignore is that Flash also had an effect on how other Terrans played. His 1rax expand against Zerg brought a new flavour to the machup that really tipped the scales more in favor of Terrans - regardless of map balance. And his Goliath use against Carriers really doomed Carrier builds for what seemed like two whole years. So the Terran imbalance in general should also be seen in light of these innovations. Jaedong was a beast however. Easily one of the most mechanically brilliant players to ever play on a professional level. Unfortunately I lost a lot of respect for him when he cheesed 2 times in a row against Flash in one of their series. Jeadong might have had a knack for winning on well balanced maps, but he was predictable and sometimes even stupid when playing longer series. I remember seeing a series in the OSL where the commentator predicted all Jaedongs strategies before each game. Apperently the other player (Flash? can't remember) did this as well, and used a perfect counter strategy to Jaedong in EVERY SINGLE GAME. So while Jeadong certainly was stronger in a match on equal footing, he was not the brightest strategist and made both buildorder and ingame decisions that wre highly questionable. What's wrong with cheesing 2 times in a row? Boxer triple bunker rushed yellow and won a quick 3-0. It's still talked about but no one that I'm aware of lost respect for Boxer due to that. Flash cheesed bisu out of the OSL on his first appearance so why didn't you lose respect for Flash then?  I was supposed to response to letmelose but lost my reply a while back, will respond whenever I get a chance(won't be anytime soon though XD). | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
The main point I was making, is that while Jaedong always impressed with his unit control, game sense and multitasking, he was no great strategist and was more than once knocked out due to being too predictable. What strategic contribution did Jaedong leave the Zerg race? He showed how to bring unit control to the next level, but really didn't innovate builds and strategies that much. Flash gave Terrans a buch of new strategies to use against all races. I would argue that Zero was a much better strategist than Jaedong. It was Zero who deduced that Queens were a viable and strong answer to lategame mech. It was Zero who pioneered a build to obliterate Flash's original 1rax expand, while still doing great against other openings. So as I see it, it was his lack of strategic innovation that really hidered Jaedong in getting quite the status that Flash has. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 16 2013 10:42 MarlieChurphy wrote: I think the main reason why everyone likes Flash more or thinks he is better is actually a couple of reasons combined. 1. He is the prodigy of Boxer/IloveOOv, he has arguably the best mechanics of any player ever, and iirc there are generally more terran fans and players. I've always thought JD to be the better player because he has ridiculously good control and builds and seemed to adapt most easily and best to things. Okay, I think I've avoided this thread long enough (reminiscent of when I actually started posting on TL instead of just lurking) because this blog just doesn't seem to go away when we used to have several threads about Jaedong versus Flash because everyone wanted to try and make a case for which one was better. For those interested before there was any clear cut winner I sided with Jaedong btw, but once the media decided to start calling Flash GoD with that streak of his. They kind of made it hard to argue and now that Jaedong has had more than several 2nd place finishes whereas Flash has nothing to really show for it in SC2. What do you know, someone wants to bring up this old conversation again. It's like arguing the OSL over the MSL all over again. Annnnnyway.... How can Flash be the prodigy of Boxer/OOv when he was on a different team? I think you mean Flash was a child prodigy because like BaBy he entered the fray when he was really, really young. He's not a prodigy of Boxer/OOv at all, especially with his play style. Mechanically, yep. Try to find someone with better mechanics than Flash. You'd be hard pressed to find one. I don't know about Terran players having more fans in general though. Where the heck did that come from? Because of BoxeR and OOv? Maybe in the early days but if I recall correctly Koreans were fascinated with Giyom and then you have the whole dream team in KTF MagicN's where you had guys like YellOw, Nal_Ra, Reach, etc. BoxeR was a huge draw though and then again NaDa had a pretty big following as well soon after. XellOs I don't remember his fan club being as big as those guys but after those boys who would you say had really big fan clubs in the Golden Age? I don't think guys like Sync or Sonic, GoodFriend, etc. had that big of a following.. | ||
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NeuroticPsychosis
United States322 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On September 24 2013 00:45 koreasilver wrote: You know BW is dead when someone seriously tries to insinuate that Flash started 1rax expo TvZ. And I dunno about you guys but the reason I think Savior was one of the greatest players is because the way he shaped the ZvT openings pretty much got standardized to the point of it holding to the end of professional BW. Flash didn't START 1rax expo, I never said that. He did however popularize his own take on the build (slightly different depot and early Marine timings) that was tailored to crush 2 hatch muta builds and have an economic edge on 3 hatch muta builds. He also managed to find a way to go ultra greedy 14CC reliably on certain maps. I also agree that Savior had much more of an impact on BW than Jaedong ever could have been. His strategies and gameplans were brilliant at the time, and shaped how Zergs play even today. Jaedong was only the best as far as execution goes. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 24 2013 01:20 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: Flash didn't START 1rax expo, I never said that. He did however popularize his own take on the build (slightly different depot and early Marine timings) that was tailored to crush 2 hatch muta builds and have an economic edge on 3 hatch muta builds. He also managed to find a way to go ultra greedy 14CC reliably on certain maps. I also agree that Savior had much more of an impact on BW than Jaedong ever could have been. His strategies and gameplans were brilliant at the time, and shaped how Zergs play even today. Jaedong was only the best as far as execution goes. I think you're talking about 1rax expo as it relates to TvP, not TvZ. See G1 of the 2009 EVER OSL Finals, where Flash opened showcased the 1rax expo + early gas vs Movie to get an expansion up 30 seconds earlier than normal while only slightly delaying his first tank and first 150 "surplus" gas after the machine shop (for siege or mines). | ||
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