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On March 22 2016 16:23 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 15:56 gngfn wrote:
The premise of the thread is flawed anyway. Flash isn't considered better because of his narrow lead in the H2H matchup vs. Jaedong, he's considered better because he achieved a greater level of dominance against the entire field. FBH was 8-3 career against Savior but no one considers FBH the better player.
Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places.
So when you said there is this topic of controversy in the Korean community, that was just made up as a backstory for how you feel or are there actually some threads/posts of this on their forums?
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On March 22 2016 17:22 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 16:23 Shinokuki wrote:On March 22 2016 15:56 gngfn wrote:
The premise of the thread is flawed anyway. Flash isn't considered better because of his narrow lead in the H2H matchup vs. Jaedong, he's considered better because he achieved a greater level of dominance against the entire field. FBH was 8-3 career against Savior but no one considers FBH the better player.
Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places. So when you said there is this topic of controversy in the Korean community, that was just made up as a backstory for how you feel or are there actually some threads/posts of this on their forums?
Come now, do you really have to ask that question given what you've seen so far?
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote:
There's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps?
Any chance you could link this controversial topic? Without a source, it's just your word.
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I'm Korean, and I'm not seeing any threads related to this topic in any Korean e-sports community that I know of.
Just for facts: The mentioned JD vs Flash games in Katrina were played on the original version Katrina, which was T favored in TvZ due to the ridiculous amount of minerals it offered within its main and natural. It was Katrina SE, the renewed version which reduced the amount of minerals, that did favor Z.
Both of Flash's Katrina wins against JD in Bacchus OSL and Gom TV MSL were on the original version.
I believe JD and Flash played each other in Katrina SE once, in one of the GOM classic events, where JD won.
If you look at the statistics of the maps where JD and Flash played each other, most will be slightly T favored - but in my opinion that is because there simply are relatively few maps that favor Z in TvZ. Since Boxer's time it is only rarely that we see a map that do favor Z in that matchup (whereas a ton of maps favored Z in ZvP), therefore I believe it is more with the generic state of Brood War TvZ rather than specific maps.
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United States10154 Posts
On March 22 2016 16:23 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 15:56 gngfn wrote:
The premise of the thread is flawed anyway. Flash isn't considered better because of his narrow lead in the H2H matchup vs. Jaedong, he's considered better because he achieved a greater level of dominance against the entire field. FBH was 8-3 career against Savior but no one considers FBH the better player.
Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite. and jaedong would've won 3 more leagues if it hadn't been for flash's dominance on terran favored maps in especially the most imba matchup tvz at that time. Thats why i consider jaedong to be greater. Jaedong would've had 8 league 1st places.
by that logic, flash would have won 1 more league if Jaedong hadn't been as dominant.
you honestly sound like one of this sc2 balance whiners. just stop. you're making a fool out of yourself while disrespecting two of the greatest scbw players ever.
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On March 22 2016 15:56 gngfn wrote:
The premise of the thread is flawed anyway. Flash isn't considered better because of his narrow lead in the H2H matchup vs. Jaedong, he's considered better because he achieved a greater level of dominance against the entire field. FBH was 8-3 career against Savior but no one considers FBH the better player.
Flash also had a better record against the other two members of TBLS (30-24 for Flash, 21-26 for Jaedong). If the F-J H2H record could be explained by T>Z>P>T imba then we would expect the opposite.
You're starting from a premise that Flash is the best, which I don't think everyone can actually agree on. There's many ways to interpret the stats, and there have been convincing arguments for Jaedong in the past. Or at least there was this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/429156-a-case-for-jaedong-why-he-was-superior-to-flash Though honestly my opinion is the same as it was in that thread. In another interesting thread, we also saw that for Jaedong Flash Bisu their stats were actually T>P>Z . Bisu's PvZ was the stuff of madness, and Flash never had to face it. By comparison Bisu's PvT was kind of weak (though certainly enough to beat most players). JvT and JvZ were Jaedong's hot matchups, and of course Flash's record is impressive to stand up to Jaedong.
Flash was strong enough to be at least even with top 3 or 4 at any time, but I never felt he was so convincing as to be the undisputed best. We really didn't have a bonjwa after Savior. Jaedong went to team 8, Flash got surgery on his arm. We got lots of Fantasy and Stork and Jangbi finals. I really admire Flash and love to watch him play, but that admiration is at most equal to Jaedong, and maybe less so. We want to call either of these players the best because they are such wonderful, interesting people and competitors, but they are rivals in an even truer sense than Boxer Yellow were. Very hard to look at maps or a one game advantage and be like 'well clearly this one was superior.' When they were in their prime it was impossible to give either one a significant edge in a BoX.
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On March 22 2016 18:10 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote:
There's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps? Any chance you could link this controversial topic? Without a source, it's just your word.
its mostly in ygosu.com starcraft section. It was controversial. I can't seem to find it since it was like a week ago.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On March 23 2016 07:21 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 18:10 Seeker wrote:On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote:
There's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps? Any chance you could link this controversial topic? Without a source, it's just your word. its mostly in ygosu.com starcraft section. It was controversial. I can't seem to find it since it was like a week ago.
Okay well please try your best to locate the source or something else that does talk about this topic because otherwise we will have to close it.
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This thread annoys me, because it hits close to home. I love me some JD. In college I would stay up all night to watch all his matches. He is now, and forever will be my favorite eSports figure.
That said, people are so ridiculous. Yes, maps appear slightly Terran favored when Flash was dominant. But that also might be because Terrans were ahead of the learning curve, and Flash was in dominant form messing with the stats. I watched every single one of those Flash vs JD finals live, and Flash out played JD. JD made mistakes, Flash capitalized. That said, JD is the second best player of all time, zero doubts.
Now, Light has nothing to do with this at all. Light was a TvZ sniper. Wtf does that have to do with anything? Was Skyhigh just as good as Flash because he is 50/50 with him? Was July as good as Bisu because he is 50/50 with him? The competition outside of Flash for JD in the 2010 season was low. If it wasn't, he wouldn't have been in all those finals. He wouldn't have had a 70% win rate.
In my eyes Flash at his peak was better than JD at his peak. But I just wish the times hadn't forgotten that JD was nearly as dominant in 2009 as Flash was in 2010...
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On March 22 2016 06:30 Shinokuki wrote:
There's a controversial topic going around in korean community that flash was in fact lesser than jaedong because flash got to play on terran favored maps a lot vs jaedong and yet jaedong is still 25:26 him. Whenever jaedong played on balanced maps he won and whenever jaedong played on zerg map he won as well. Anyone got maps?
It doesn't have as much to do with the maps, as the matchup. A large percentage of Terrans have TvZ as their best matchup. There are essentially no Zergs that have ZvT as their best matchup. This comes down to fundamental differences in strategic and tactical flexibility and effectiveness within the matchups (in large part caused by fundamental unit interactions/efficiency). All else being equal, a theoretically equally skilled Terran player will have a disproportionately high winrate, vs an equally skilled Zerg. Consequently, an even winrate in the ZvT matchup, does not equate to even skill levels.
Also, Julyzerg has said that Jaedong would be the best player in the world if he only had to practice one matchup.
Jaedong is probably the most mentally strong player ever. He has a high winrate in matches even when he loses the first game/s, while Flash does quite poorly if he loses the first game/s.
All in all, it's fairly obvious that Jaedong and Flash are the 2 best players ever. I don't think it's controversial to favor Jaedong, but it's very close regardless.
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On March 23 2016 11:18 Ritha wrote:
This thread annoys me, because it hits close to home. I love me some JD. In college I would stay up all night to watch all his matches. He is now, and forever will be my favorite eSports figure.
That said, people are so ridiculous. Yes, maps appear slightly Terran favored when Flash was dominant. But that also might be because Terrans were ahead of the learning curve, and Flash was in dominant form messing with the stats. I watched every single one of those Flash vs JD finals live, and Flash out played JD. JD made mistakes, Flash capitalized. That said, JD is the second best player of all time, zero doubts.
Now, Light has nothing to do with this at all. Light was a TvZ sniper. Wtf does that have to do with anything? Was Skyhigh just as good as Flash because he is 50/50 with him? Was July as good as Bisu because he is 50/50 with him? The competition outside of Flash for JD in the 2010 season was low. If it wasn't, he wouldn't have been in all those finals. He wouldn't have had a 70% win rate.
In my eyes Flash at his peak was better than JD at his peak. But I just wish the times hadn't forgotten that JD was nearly as dominant in 2009 as Flash was in 2010...
I brought up Light because he was undoubtedly an S-class TvZ, second or equal to Flash; it was in response to OP's claims that Jaedong couldn't beat S-class T on those maps, which is absurd.
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On March 22 2016 18:38 Lisitsa wrote:
I'm Korean, and I'm not seeing any threads related to this topic in any Korean e-sports community that I know of.
Just for facts: The mentioned JD vs Flash games in Katrina were played on the original version Katrina, which was T favored in TvZ due to the ridiculous amount of minerals it offered within its main and natural. It was Katrina SE, the renewed version which reduced the amount of minerals, that did favor Z.
Both of Flash's Katrina wins against JD in Bacchus OSL and Gom TV MSL were on the original version.
I believe JD and Flash played each other in Katrina SE once, in one of the GOM classic events, where JD won.
If you look at the statistics of the maps where JD and Flash played each other, most will be slightly T favored - but in my opinion that is because there simply are relatively few maps that favor Z in TvZ. Since Boxer's time it is only rarely that we see a map that do favor Z in that matchup (whereas a ton of maps favored Z in ZvP), therefore I believe it is more with the generic state of Brood War TvZ rather than specific maps.
Twice, and it was 1-1 on Katrina SE
and out of 35 games played
the map was 16-19 T-Z
hardly a huge imbalance
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Why do legitimate forum questions and discussions always end up with raging balanced discussions that can't be proven? This entire thread is a prime example.
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On March 23 2016 22:20 ClanRH.TV wrote:
Why do legitimate forum questions and discussions always end up with raging balanced discussions that can't be proven? This entire thread is a prime example.
I'm not sure it started as a legitimate forum question so much as a poorly-supported OP with an agenda to (try to) prove. The weasel word support of a yet-to-be posted Korean source and dismissive "lol educate yourself ur dumb for disagreeing" attitude tends to lead to this kind of thing.
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lets all agree jaedong should return to bw an play bo100 with flash
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On March 23 2016 22:20 ClanRH.TV wrote:
Why do legitimate forum questions and discussions always end up with raging balanced discussions that can't be proven? This entire thread is a prime example.
Where to begin?
Your whole interpretation of this thread is flawed at best.
1. The question alone may have been legitimate at the start, but the OP approached consequent replies with inherent bias and a blind eye to evidence which contradicted his preexisting notions. This is a terrible foundation for constructive discussion. Therefore, it is a stretch to call this a "legitimate" discussion. The direct answer to the question ("what maps did Flash play JaeDong on?") can be found in the TLPD which is by no means an obscure tool, one that was linked multiple times in this thread. However, because OP came with an agenda, discourse on the facts and figures answering his question was doomed from the start.
2. The question itself initiates a balance discussion, albeit in terms of map balance. Hardly anyone in this thread mentioned anything about actual racial balance between Zerg and Terran. So, your assertion that this discussion devolved into a balance discussion is foolish if you meant map balance, as that was the initial topic of the thread, or straight up false if you meant overall racial balance.
3. I don't see anything even close to balance "rage" in these replies. The closest I see stems from the OP who made outlandish claims about how successful JaeDong would have been had Flash not been his rival for the throne and his baseless opinions on the viability of ZvT on certain maps. Other than that, discussion seems to be largely civil, barring the instances where OP continued to ignore constructive posts proving his ignorance on the matter.
4. Saying that "it can't be proven" is a myopic approach given the data we have on the subject. While it is true that most of the maps that are in question don't have a statistically significant amount of games played on them, that does not change the fact that the consequent assertions of OP are fundamentally false. For example, his assertion that JaeDong can't win on maps such as Match Point and Polaris Rhapsody against S class Terrans is disproven with links to his stats against Terran on those maps, in which he is even or ahead of S class TvZ opponents. This effectively "proves" that though the maps maybe have had leanings in one way or another, they were not significant enough to prevent JaeDong from winning on them.
.: QED Your assessment of this thread is faulty.
TL;DR: Instead of contributing to a thread you found subpar, however warped your perception of it may be, you decided to complain in broad strokes about all threads of this nature, which adds absolutely nothing.
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EPT
