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Zero vs Mind (Best of 7) Announcement

Forum Index > BW General
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lemmata
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
468 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-29 01:21:47
November 10 2013 19:50 GMT
#1
VODs (spoiler)
+ Show Spoiler +

Could someone upload these VODs to Youtube? Also, if anyone recorded the Zergman commentary stream, it would be awesome if that could be uploaded and added to the Small VOD Thread as well.

These are links to Afreeca VODs that can be viewed without special software. However, the buffering can be insufferable depending on the time of access and your location.
Mind's stream recording
ZerO's stream recording (starts after about 10 minutes of practice/talk)


Post-match update and some comments on the process (edit: in spoiler tags b/c it might be long):
+ Show Spoiler +
The match took almost 2 months and 40 emails to put together and I learned a couple of things about organizing things with Korean players.
  • A real-time method of communication, such as Skype or some sort of chat, is desirable for organizing future events. The players do not check e-mail that frequently because they all prefer text messages (or Kakao Talk). I think that I will try to use Kakao Talk for future communications.
  • The players are scary serious about winning because it is a matter of pride and reputation, especially when many people are watching.
  • The players are very resistant to playing on maps they have not played recently. This has a lot to do with the previous point. Even maps like Andromeda, Gladiator, and (to a lesser extent) New Bloody Ridge, which were used in the most recent OSLs were met with some resistance. All of these maps have match-up specific sim city layouts and builds they wanted to spend extra effort on reviewing. Gladiator was dropped as a compromise.
  • My observation is that having someone popular cast the match hurts the bottom line of the players to some extent because it splits the viewership. The commentators also have a positive effect of increasing overall viewership, so the income loss is not serious, but it is still there. In the case of the more popular commentators like Zergman, they can take a lot of the viewership. This is probably why, these days, Zergman tries to find sponsors first and then recruits players afterwards. I still think that commentary and observer streams add a lot though. FPV is sometimes too much for me.
  • As an alternative, I think that it would be a good idea in the future to have 3-player match ups so that each player can sit out a match and commentate, which would lead to a more fair sharing of viewership.
  • Some players are better at real life stuff and computer stuff than others. You need to patient enough to guide them through certain tasks that involve web sites and tools that Koreans do not use. Of course, there are exceptions like Movie, who apparent has set up Twitch and PayPal.
  • Movie was asked to observe the match and stream on Twitch, and he was okay with it in principle, but the timing was not right because he had to be in China.
  • Mind is nice and polite. He is also capable of chatting in broken English on a very limited number of topics (On the linked stream, we see him chatting briefly with a random Twitch viewer on Fish after the match concludes). Communication in English is not really an option for more important things. My correspondence with Mind was in Korean.


The match has concluded. The information about the match is quoted below:
ZerO and Mind will play a best of 7 match in an event match called "The Neuron Starleague (NSL)". The schedule has been finalized. Each player's Afreeca stream will show his FPV and their will be a Korean commentator (Zergman) who will cast as an observer on his own stream.

Format: 1v1 best of 7
Time: Korean Standard Time, Saturday 2013-12-28, 9PM
In local time: Saturday, Dec 28 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
Prize Pool: $100 for the winner, $50 for the loser, $50 to the organizer
Map Pool: New Sniper Ridge, Circuit Breaker, Andromeda, New Bloody Ridge, Neo Jade

Due to all the delays, ZerO and Mind have gotten a lot of practice. It should be a fun match.


OLD UPDATE #1:
+ Show Spoiler +
Looks like it might take another week because of Zero's schedule. This might be a good thing because Zero still seems to have some rust that he needs to shake off (From what little I managed to hear on his stream, it sounds like he felt compelled to reveal himself before he was ready once his Fish server ID TheCute was exposed). The players also requested that they need to go back and study the TvZ simcity for these maps, which really surprised me. That might be a signal that they want to play it seriously. They want to play one game on Fighting Spirit because of that, which I am trying to resist, but we will see.

By the way, apparently Zero lives on the southern tip of the Korean peninsula. It takes him five hours by bus to reach Seoul. The time and monetary costs of travel to a studio are nontrivial, so we probably shouldn't expect that to happen unless there are some fortunate coincidences.

About opening up the pool for donations, I think that's an awesome idea, but I want to make sure this test run goes smoothly before we try more ambitious community projects. It would be a shame if I wasted other people's money on a test run. I don't want that on my conscience. Plus, I am swamped at work at the moment, which makes additional coordination a little difficult.


Original Post:
+ Show Spoiler +
For the last few weeks, I've been in communication with Mind to arrange a competitive exhibition match between Zero and Mind. Zero has now agreed in principle to the match.

The map pool will be: New Sniper's Ridge/Gladiator Circuit Breaker (by pros' request)/Andromeda/New Bloody Ridge

The winner will be awarded $100 and the runner-up will receive $50.

More details will be forthcoming (and updated here), but it is quite likely to take place next weekend [maybe one more week; see update], so keep your eyes open for updates.
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
November 10 2013 20:14 GMT
#2
nice, ZvT
brood war for life, brood war forever
Lonyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United Kingdom3884 Posts
November 10 2013 20:21 GMT
#3
You should open up the pool for donations
Or alternatively make it a semi regular (as often as you can) KOTH type tournament like the IPL Fightclub was, with the winner taking on a new challenger each time, if people donated enough for a prizepool to keep the idea going.
HOLY CHECK!
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4990 Posts
November 10 2013 20:28 GMT
#4
bo7 and 4 maps? Get at least 5 maps please. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe a Freakling map!!
FBH #1!
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
November 10 2013 21:54 GMT
#5
Siick. I've been looking forward to finally see Zero play.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
November 10 2013 21:56 GMT
#6
Zero already looking good, should be interesting.
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
AleXoundOS
Profile Joined January 2011
Georgia457 Posts
November 10 2013 22:22 GMT
#7
On November 11 2013 05:28 s.Q.uelched wrote:
bo7 and 4 maps? Get at least 5 maps please. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe a Freakling map!!

Yes, Oxide!
https://bwapi.github.io - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1)
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
November 10 2013 22:22 GMT
#8
ZvT is the best!
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
November 10 2013 22:30 GMT
#9
Make them play in the new studio!
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
November 10 2013 22:43 GMT
#10
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
lemmata
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
468 Posts
November 10 2013 23:18 GMT
#11
On November 11 2013 05:28 s.Q.uelched wrote:
bo7 and 4 maps? Get at least 5 maps please. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe a Freakling map!!

I think that it's too late to change the maps for this particular match because the players were informed already, but more maps would be a good idea for future matches.
On November 11 2013 05:21 Lonyo wrote:
Or alternatively make it a semi regular (as often as you can) KOTH type tournament like the IPL Fightclub was, with the winner taking on a new challenger each time, if people donated enough for a prizepool to keep the idea going.

All of these seem like fun ideas. One of my secondary goals in setting up this match was to see if Korean Brood War matches/events could be crowd-funded by the Western community (I live in Canada). I am using my own funds to test out the idea this time. We should see how this experiment goes first though.
On November 11 2013 07:30 Xiphos wrote:
Make them play in the new studio!

That would be awesome, but travel is an issue for the players, not to mention the potential rental fees we might have to pay Sonic if we wanted to use the space.
Leeoku
Profile Joined May 2010
1617 Posts
November 11 2013 00:23 GMT
#12
My fav matchup with my top 3 zergs
sM.Zik
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada2547 Posts
November 11 2013 00:51 GMT
#13
Glad to see a variety of map.. FS all the time is really boring imo
Jaedong Fighting! | youtube.com/ZikGaming
miercat
Profile Joined November 2011
394 Posts
November 11 2013 02:04 GMT
#14
ZerO vs Mind is a good match up. I will watch. Thanks for setting it up.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
November 11 2013 02:55 GMT
#15
On November 11 2013 05:21 Lonyo wrote:
You should open up the pool for donations
Or alternatively make it a semi regular (as often as you can) KOTH type tournament like the IPL Fightclub was, with the winner taking on a new challenger each time, if people donated enough for a prizepool to keep the idea going.

this. Can get more money for the winner
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
November 11 2013 08:03 GMT
#16
If it becomes open to donations maybe also give them an extra week to prepare.
KTY
Medry *
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada166 Posts
November 11 2013 08:21 GMT
#17
Hype! Hype! So much awesome BW action lately. Cant wait for this to happen. Hopefully this becomes a regular thing! I would love to donate money for stuff like this in the future
24/7 Starcraft Broodwar Stream ||| Online Since October 20, 2013 ✔
Rigodon666
Profile Joined November 2006
Canada183 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-11 08:35:57
November 11 2013 08:35 GMT
#18
I totally agree that we should open that to donation. I will participate to the financing of the rebirth of BW.
I'll call the guy who will call Nada
Mewka
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland1458 Posts
November 11 2013 11:01 GMT
#19
maybe use Sonic studio ?
Mewka, Mewka[AoV], Fox.Mewka, Mewman
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
November 12 2013 06:07 GMT
#20
On November 11 2013 20:01 Mewka wrote:
maybe use Sonic studio ?


That might work. Ask for it!
KTY
Glioburd
Profile Joined April 2008
France1911 Posts
November 12 2013 10:23 GMT
#21
Excellent initiative. I'll watch it for sure. Thank you for organizing this.
"You should hate loosing, but you should never fear defeat." NaDa.
DropBear
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia4353 Posts
November 12 2013 10:27 GMT
#22
Man. I love both these two! So sick can't wait!
Sucker for nostalgia
ManButter
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada38 Posts
November 12 2013 10:31 GMT
#23
My two favorite BW pros playing in a bo7. Please open this up for donations to increase the prize pool.
Potling
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Norway298 Posts
December 04 2013 01:20 GMT
#24
Any more info on when this will take place? I would love to catch it.
lemmata
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
468 Posts
December 04 2013 01:40 GMT
#25
On December 04 2013 10:20 Potling wrote:
Any more info on when this will take place? I would love to catch it.

Sorry about the wait. There's been some delay with the payment setup because Mind is not very experienced with this kind of thing. It's getting there though. I will make sure to update and bump the thread when it's finalized (maybe I can ask the mods to put the schedule in the upcoming events section when it is finalized).
lemmata
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
468 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-28 04:17:21
December 28 2013 04:15 GMT
#26
That took a while, but this match is finally happening tomorrow!

Time: Korean Standard Time, Saturday 2013-12-28, 9PM

In local time: Saturday, Dec 28 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)

See the original post for the updated information!

I've submitted the event to the calendar, but it doesn't seem to be showing up yet.
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-28 04:32:44
December 28 2013 04:32 GMT
#27
This is awesome! Need more maps for the Bo7, though. ><
T P Z sagi
EpiK
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Korea (South)5757 Posts
December 28 2013 06:35 GMT
#28
On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote:
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.

zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-28 13:28:16
December 28 2013 12:36 GMT
#29
Over. FPVs/VODs later~
En Taro Violet
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17727 Posts
December 28 2013 13:45 GMT
#30
On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote:
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.

zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly

Not his vs terran
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
December 28 2013 17:59 GMT
#31
On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote:
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.

zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly

This is pretty hilarious.

+ Show Spoiler +
Mind won 4-1
Moderator。◕‿◕。
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
December 28 2013 18:12 GMT
#32
On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:
On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote:
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.

zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly

This is pretty hilarious.

+ Show Spoiler +
Mind won 4-1


Did Zero make queens? If not, he needs to go watch his old games and learn to make queens
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
December 28 2013 19:11 GMT
#33
Flash vs Jaedong next please
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
December 28 2013 22:00 GMT
#34
On December 29 2013 03:12 amazingxkcd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:
On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:
On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote:
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.

zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly

This is pretty hilarious.

+ Show Spoiler +
Mind won 4-1


Did Zero make queens? If not, he needs to go watch his old games and learn to make queens

Zero spends too much whining about how his hands aren't fast enough now to use queens and how he wants to cut them off.

Dunno why his afreecan fan nick is queen anymore anyways. If anyone should have it then it should be Killer.
Moderator。◕‿◕。
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
December 28 2013 23:55 GMT
#35
ZerO just need to practice 13 hrs again like his progamer days, his hand speed shall go back up in no time.

I'm a guitar player and I personally witnessed 40 + years olds moving their fingers faster than I do. I highly doubt that your hands will slow down in 20s.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
lemmata
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
468 Posts
December 28 2013 23:57 GMT
#36
On December 29 2013 07:00 Harem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2013 03:12 amazingxkcd wrote:
On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:
On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:
On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote:
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.

zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly

This is pretty hilarious.

+ Show Spoiler +
Mind won 4-1


Did Zero make queens? If not, he needs to go watch his old games and learn to make queens

Zero spends too much whining about how his hands aren't fast enough now to use queens and how he wants to cut them off.

Dunno why his afreecan fan nick is queen anymore anyways. If anyone should have it then it should be Killer.

Just as Air Jordan is still Air Jordan when he cannot jump anymore, these nicknames just stick. I've also seen ZerO use queens in his other matches. Even ZerO doesn't usually make queens until the late game.

Also, to be fair to ZerO, he beat Mind in games that were played the day before this match. Mind was also practicing TvZ specifically, whereas ZerO may have been browsing hot pics of scantily clad women (J/K)

+ Show Spoiler +
I thought that the second game was one that could have gone either way. Also, one of the losses came when he went for an all-in counterattack after taking some serious damage from bunker/scv rush. Mind held it off with some clutch repair and sim city. It could have been a much closer match.
Fuchsteufelswild
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2028 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 01:58:53
December 30 2013 01:56 GMT
#37
On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:
On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote:
I think it will come down to who's in better shape.

zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly

This is pretty hilarious.

+ Show Spoiler +
Mind won 4-1

I hadn't seen it yet but I can't believe I just let the exact result get spoiled by clicking just one person's spoiler after they wrote
"This is pretty hilarious".
T__T
I thought you were just going to reveal one event that was occurred in one game.
+ Show Spoiler +
but now I realise the relevance of you saying it after quoting EpiK's post.
ZerO - FantaSy - Calm - Nal_rA - Jaedong - NaDa - EffOrt - Bisu - by.hero - StarDust - Welmu - Nerchio - Supernova - Solar - Squirtle - LosirA - Grubby - IntoTheRainbow - Golden... ~~~ Incredible Miracle and Woongjin Stars 화이팅!
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
December 30 2013 05:08 GMT
#38
On December 28 2013 13:15 lemmata wrote:
That took a while, but this match is finally happening tomorrow!

Time: Korean Standard Time, Saturday 2013-12-28, 9PM

In local time: Saturday, Dec 28 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)

See the original post for the updated information!

I've submitted the event to the calendar, but it doesn't seem to be showing up yet.

ouch, missed this. Guessing there are vods?
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
December 30 2013 08:03 GMT
#39

Neuron StarLeague ShowMatch Mind vs ZerO BO7
Saturday, Dec 28 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)

[image loading] [image loading] [image loading]
$100 for the winner + $50 for the runner-up

131228 FPV (T)Mind vs (Z)ZerO FPV Set 1 on (Wiki)New Sniper Ridge
131228 FPV (T)Mind vs (Z)ZerO FPV Set 2 on (Wiki)Circuit Breaker
131228 FPV (T)Mind vs (Z)ZerO FPV Set 3 on (Wiki)Andromeda
131228 FPV (T)Mind vs (Z)ZerO FPV Set 4 on (Wiki)New Bloody Ridge
+ Show Spoiler [Set 5] +
131228 FPV (T)Mind vs (Z)ZerO FPV Set 5 on (Wiki)Neo Jade

+ Show Spoiler [Set 6] +
Not needed.

+ Show Spoiler [Set 7] +
Not needed.


+ Show Spoiler [Recommended games] +
+ Show Spoiler [Set 1] +
Poll: Set 1 rating:

meh (1)
 
50%

must-watch (1)
 
50%

recommended (0)
 
0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Set 1 rating:

(Vote): meh
(Vote): recommended
(Vote): must-watch


+ Show Spoiler [Set 2] +
Poll: Set 2 rating:

recommended (2)
 
100%

meh (0)
 
0%

must-watch (0)
 
0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Set 2 rating:

(Vote): meh
(Vote): recommended
(Vote): must-watch


+ Show Spoiler [Set 3] +
Poll: Set 3 rating:

meh (1)
 
50%

recommended (1)
 
50%

must-watch (0)
 
0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Set 3 rating:

(Vote): meh
(Vote): recommended
(Vote): must-watch


+ Show Spoiler [Set 4] +
Poll: Set 4 rating:

meh (1)
 
50%

must-watch (1)
 
50%

recommended (0)
 
0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Set 4 rating:

(Vote): meh
(Vote): recommended
(Vote): must-watch


+ Show Spoiler [Set 5] +
Poll: Set 5 rating:

meh (1)
 
50%

must-watch (1)
 
50%

recommended (0)
 
0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Set 5 rating:

(Vote): meh
(Vote): recommended
(Vote): must-watch


+ Show Spoiler [Set 6] +
Not needed.

+ Show Spoiler [Set 7] +
Not needed.



The live restream of Zergman's cast lagged badly so our only hope of getting his casts is catching a re-run if he still does these. If you see him doing one ask an available mod in snipe chat / me sgs.stratos @skype so we can put him on and upload that later.
En Taro Violet
fencer
Profile Joined October 2011
122 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 09:52:52
December 30 2013 09:39 GMT
#40
Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?

Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses?
Disc Golf is Awesome! Thought I'd throw that out there =)
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 10:30:06
December 30 2013 10:27 GMT
#41
On December 30 2013 18:39 fencer wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?

Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses?

D-ranked analysis ftw >> + Show Spoiler +
By that time the muta threat was getting weaker every second as bio was getting stim/range/upgrades. His mutas were also somewhat low on hp throm the "complete destruction" of Mind's forces, so using them just to take advantage of the ridges to protect his 3rd was a good choice imo - if he flew in Mind's base, T would deal with it switfly and could take the opportunity to take out his 3rd. More importantly, ZerO was droning well so he didn't need to do damage.

He opted for a stronger mid game army at the cost of a delayed hive tech as Killer liked to do a lot back in the days but I'm not sure about the use of the army. He ambushed the Terran push right on the ridge without any proper surround, it went okayish but it only delayed the push for a little while, enough tanks survived and bio reinforcements are always there, so that's where things went wrong imo.

With this style you need to destroy the push and take control of the map before the next push forms and defilers are out. Or not go for defiler tech right after and follow up with more lurkers.
En Taro Violet
fencer
Profile Joined October 2011
122 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 11:35:59
December 30 2013 11:30 GMT
#42
On December 30 2013 19:27 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2013 18:39 fencer wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?

Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses?

D-ranked analysis ftw >> + Show Spoiler +
By that time the muta threat was getting weaker every second as bio was getting stim/range/upgrades. His mutas were also somewhat low on hp throm the "complete destruction" of Mind's forces, so using them just to take advantage of the ridges to protect his 3rd was a good choice imo - if he flew in Mind's base, T would deal with it switfly and could take the opportunity to take out his 3rd. More importantly, ZerO was droning well so he didn't need to do damage.

He opted for a stronger mid game army at the cost of a delayed hive tech as Killer liked to do a lot back in the days but I'm not sure about the use of the army. He ambushed the Terran push right on the ridge without any proper surround, it went okayish but it only delayed the push for a little while, enough tanks survived and bio reinforcements are always there, so that's where things went wrong imo.

With this style you need to destroy the push and take control of the map before the next push forms and defilers are out. Or not go for defiler tech right after and follow up with more lurkers.


My post did come with a lot of question marks didn't it? No need for the attitude.

I guess his 3rd was a bit in jeopardy if he'd moved in to harass, but it seemed to me like the first engagement went pretty much as well as it possibly could have for Z and the T's standing army at that point was about a control group of M&M. Not taking any real advantage of it by using that 1 minute window to defend the 3rd by other means while moving in to harass with 9 mutas just seemed weird to me. What's the point of going 3 hatch muta if you're just going to use them to defend no matter how badly you crush the first push? But I could be wrong.
Disc Golf is Awesome! Thought I'd throw that out there =)
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
December 30 2013 11:56 GMT
#43
Isn't the whole idea behind 3hatch muta stalling the terran's push before defiler comes out? 2hatch muta is agressive. 3hatch can be agressive if there's a hole to abuse but more often than not you don't actually see it do much direct damage. And the "D-ranked analysis" was just a warning for what's coming from me, I'm the D-ranked hero lol ^^
En Taro Violet
fencer
Profile Joined October 2011
122 Posts
December 30 2013 12:25 GMT
#44
Yeah maybe, I'm just worried that high level BW will take cues from other strategy games and have players turtle for 15+ minutes before anything happens.

+ Show Spoiler +
The last high level HotS match I watched was a ZvP where literally no unit died until 200/200. The first "engagement" was just the Z saccing all of his lings to make room for better units. When the real battle took place at the P's natural the Z got destroyed badly and lost his entire army, but since he had 5k minerals piled up he remaxed instantly and a-moved into victory. I don't want that for BW.
Disc Golf is Awesome! Thought I'd throw that out there =)
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 13:24:47
December 30 2013 13:23 GMT
#45
On December 30 2013 20:30 fencer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2013 19:27 Stratos wrote:
On December 30 2013 18:39 fencer wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?

Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses?

D-ranked analysis ftw >> + Show Spoiler +
By that time the muta threat was getting weaker every second as bio was getting stim/range/upgrades. His mutas were also somewhat low on hp throm the "complete destruction" of Mind's forces, so using them just to take advantage of the ridges to protect his 3rd was a good choice imo - if he flew in Mind's base, T would deal with it switfly and could take the opportunity to take out his 3rd. More importantly, ZerO was droning well so he didn't need to do damage.

He opted for a stronger mid game army at the cost of a delayed hive tech as Killer liked to do a lot back in the days but I'm not sure about the use of the army. He ambushed the Terran push right on the ridge without any proper surround, it went okayish but it only delayed the push for a little while, enough tanks survived and bio reinforcements are always there, so that's where things went wrong imo.

With this style you need to destroy the push and take control of the map before the next push forms and defilers are out. Or not go for defiler tech right after and follow up with more lurkers.


My post did come with a lot of question marks didn't it? No need for the attitude.

I guess his 3rd was a bit in jeopardy if he'd moved in to harass, but it seemed to me like the first engagement went pretty much as well as it possibly could have for Z and the T's standing army at that point was about a control group of M&M. Not taking any real advantage of it by using that 1 minute window to defend the 3rd by other means while moving in to harass with 9 mutas just seemed weird to me. What's the point of going 3 hatch muta if you're just going to use them to defend no matter how badly you crush the first push? But I could be wrong.



What attitude?
Edit: oh was that the d level remark?

At that point of the game, there was nothing the mutas could do to hurt Terran. When u opt for three hatch muta, the intention of the muta is never to kill the Terran, it is to use the presence of the muta to delay the Terran. After the engagement, the mutas were already at lower HP, even nine marines would have killed them easily with turret support. If zero risked moving in with the mutas and lost them, he would lose map control completely and be extremely vulnerable to drops in either his main or third.

The attack u are referring to was not exactly how it seemed. Mind gave away that group of mm on purpose in order to buy time to set up defense in his base and get upgrades.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
December 30 2013 15:57 GMT
#46
I wonder if Mind feels better about himself now.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
December 30 2013 21:51 GMT
#47
Thanks for organizing this OP! Watching the vods on afreeca is pretty amazing, the picture is perfect.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
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