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VODs (spoiler) + Show Spoiler +
Post-match update and some comments on the process (edit: in spoiler tags b/c it might be long): + Show Spoiler +The match took almost 2 months and 40 emails to put together and I learned a couple of things about organizing things with Korean players. - A real-time method of communication, such as Skype or some sort of chat, is desirable for organizing future events. The players do not check e-mail that frequently because they all prefer text messages (or Kakao Talk). I think that I will try to use Kakao Talk for future communications.
- The players are scary serious about winning because it is a matter of pride and reputation, especially when many people are watching.
- The players are very resistant to playing on maps they have not played recently. This has a lot to do with the previous point. Even maps like Andromeda, Gladiator, and (to a lesser extent) New Bloody Ridge, which were used in the most recent OSLs were met with some resistance. All of these maps have match-up specific sim city layouts and builds they wanted to spend extra effort on reviewing. Gladiator was dropped as a compromise.
- My observation is that having someone popular cast the match hurts the bottom line of the players to some extent because it splits the viewership. The commentators also have a positive effect of increasing overall viewership, so the income loss is not serious, but it is still there. In the case of the more popular commentators like Zergman, they can take a lot of the viewership. This is probably why, these days, Zergman tries to find sponsors first and then recruits players afterwards. I still think that commentary and observer streams add a lot though. FPV is sometimes too much for me.
- As an alternative, I think that it would be a good idea in the future to have 3-player match ups so that each player can sit out a match and commentate, which would lead to a more fair sharing of viewership.
- Some players are better at real life stuff and computer stuff than others. You need to patient enough to guide them through certain tasks that involve web sites and tools that Koreans do not use. Of course, there are exceptions like Movie, who apparent has set up Twitch and PayPal.
- Movie was asked to observe the match and stream on Twitch, and he was okay with it in principle, but the timing was not right because he had to be in China.
- Mind is nice and polite. He is also capable of chatting in broken English on a very limited number of topics (On the linked stream, we see him chatting briefly with a random Twitch viewer on Fish after the match concludes). Communication in English is not really an option for more important things. My correspondence with Mind was in Korean.
The match has concluded. The information about the match is quoted below:
ZerO and Mind will play a best of 7 match in an event match called "The Neuron Starleague (NSL)". The schedule has been finalized. Each player's Afreeca stream will show his FPV and their will be a Korean commentator (Zergman) who will cast as an observer on his own stream.
Format: 1v1 best of 7 Time: Korean Standard Time, Saturday 2013-12-28, 9PM In local time: Saturday, Dec 28 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) Prize Pool: $100 for the winner, $50 for the loser, $50 to the organizer Map Pool: New Sniper Ridge, Circuit Breaker, Andromeda, New Bloody Ridge, Neo Jade
Due to all the delays, ZerO and Mind have gotten a lot of practice. It should be a fun match.
OLD UPDATE #1: + Show Spoiler +Looks like it might take another week because of Zero's schedule. This might be a good thing because Zero still seems to have some rust that he needs to shake off (From what little I managed to hear on his stream, it sounds like he felt compelled to reveal himself before he was ready once his Fish server ID TheCute was exposed). The players also requested that they need to go back and study the TvZ simcity for these maps, which really surprised me. That might be a signal that they want to play it seriously. They want to play one game on Fighting Spirit because of that, which I am trying to resist, but we will see.
By the way, apparently Zero lives on the southern tip of the Korean peninsula. It takes him five hours by bus to reach Seoul. The time and monetary costs of travel to a studio are nontrivial, so we probably shouldn't expect that to happen unless there are some fortunate coincidences.
About opening up the pool for donations, I think that's an awesome idea, but I want to make sure this test run goes smoothly before we try more ambitious community projects. It would be a shame if I wasted other people's money on a test run. I don't want that on my conscience. Plus, I am swamped at work at the moment, which makes additional coordination a little difficult.
Original Post: + Show Spoiler +For the last few weeks, I've been in communication with Mind to arrange a competitive exhibition match between Zero and Mind. Zero has now agreed in principle to the match.
The map pool will be: New Sniper's Ridge/Gladiator Circuit Breaker (by pros' request)/Andromeda/New Bloody Ridge
The winner will be awarded $100 and the runner-up will receive $50.
More details will be forthcoming (and updated here), but it is quite likely to take place next weekend [maybe one more week; see update], so keep your eyes open for updates.
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nice, ZvT
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You should open up the pool for donations  Or alternatively make it a semi regular (as often as you can) KOTH type tournament like the IPL Fightclub was, with the winner taking on a new challenger each time, if people donated enough for a prizepool to keep the idea going.
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Netherlands4990 Posts
bo7 and 4 maps? Get at least 5 maps please. + Show Spoiler +Maybe a Freakling map!! 
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Siick. I've been looking forward to finally see Zero play.
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Zero already looking good, should be interesting.
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On November 11 2013 05:28 s.Q.uelched wrote:bo7 and 4 maps? Get at least 5 maps please. + Show Spoiler +Maybe a Freakling map!!  Yes, Oxide!
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Make them play in the new studio!
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I think it will come down to who's in better shape.
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On November 11 2013 05:28 s.Q.uelched wrote:bo7 and 4 maps? Get at least 5 maps please. + Show Spoiler +Maybe a Freakling map!!  I think that it's too late to change the maps for this particular match because the players were informed already, but more maps would be a good idea for future matches.
On November 11 2013 05:21 Lonyo wrote: Or alternatively make it a semi regular (as often as you can) KOTH type tournament like the IPL Fightclub was, with the winner taking on a new challenger each time, if people donated enough for a prizepool to keep the idea going. All of these seem like fun ideas. One of my secondary goals in setting up this match was to see if Korean Brood War matches/events could be crowd-funded by the Western community (I live in Canada). I am using my own funds to test out the idea this time. We should see how this experiment goes first though.
On November 11 2013 07:30 Xiphos wrote: Make them play in the new studio! That would be awesome, but travel is an issue for the players, not to mention the potential rental fees we might have to pay Sonic if we wanted to use the space.
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My fav matchup with my top 3 zergs
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Glad to see a variety of map.. FS all the time is really boring imo
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ZerO vs Mind is a good match up. I will watch. Thanks for setting it up.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On November 11 2013 05:21 Lonyo wrote:You should open up the pool for donations  Or alternatively make it a semi regular (as often as you can) KOTH type tournament like the IPL Fightclub was, with the winner taking on a new challenger each time, if people donated enough for a prizepool to keep the idea going. this. Can get more money for the winner
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Canada5565 Posts
If it becomes open to donations maybe also give them an extra week to prepare.
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Medry
Canada166 Posts
Hype! Hype! So much awesome BW action lately. Cant wait for this to happen. Hopefully this becomes a regular thing! I would love to donate money for stuff like this in the future
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I totally agree that we should open that to donation. I will participate to the financing of the rebirth of BW.
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Canada5565 Posts
On November 11 2013 20:01 Mewka wrote: maybe use Sonic studio ?
That might work. Ask for it!
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Excellent initiative. I'll watch it for sure. Thank you for organizing this.
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Man. I love both these two! So sick can't wait!
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My two favorite BW pros playing in a bo7. Please open this up for donations to increase the prize pool.
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Any more info on when this will take place? I would love to catch it.
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On December 04 2013 10:20 Potling wrote: Any more info on when this will take place? I would love to catch it. Sorry about the wait. There's been some delay with the payment setup because Mind is not very experienced with this kind of thing. It's getting there though. I will make sure to update and bump the thread when it's finalized (maybe I can ask the mods to put the schedule in the upcoming events section when it is finalized).
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That took a while, but this match is finally happening tomorrow!
Time: Korean Standard Time, Saturday 2013-12-28, 9PM
In local time: Saturday, Dec 28 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
See the original post for the updated information!
I've submitted the event to the calendar, but it doesn't seem to be showing up yet.
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This is awesome! Need more maps for the Bo7, though. ><
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On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote: I think it will come down to who's in better shape. zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly
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On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote: I think it will come down to who's in better shape. zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly Not his vs terran
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United States11390 Posts
On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote: I think it will come down to who's in better shape. zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly This is pretty hilarious.
+ Show Spoiler +
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote: I think it will come down to who's in better shape. zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly This is pretty hilarious. + Show Spoiler +
Did Zero make queens? If not, he needs to go watch his old games and learn to make queens
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Flash vs Jaedong next please
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United States11390 Posts
On December 29 2013 03:12 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote: I think it will come down to who's in better shape. zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly This is pretty hilarious. + Show Spoiler + Did Zero make queens? If not, he needs to go watch his old games and learn to make queens Zero spends too much whining about how his hands aren't fast enough now to use queens and how he wants to cut them off.
Dunno why his afreecan fan nick is queen anymore anyways. If anyone should have it then it should be Killer.
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ZerO just need to practice 13 hrs again like his progamer days, his hand speed shall go back up in no time.
I'm a guitar player and I personally witnessed 40 + years olds moving their fingers faster than I do. I highly doubt that your hands will slow down in 20s.
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On December 29 2013 07:00 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 03:12 amazingxkcd wrote:On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote: I think it will come down to who's in better shape. zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly This is pretty hilarious. + Show Spoiler + Did Zero make queens? If not, he needs to go watch his old games and learn to make queens Zero spends too much whining about how his hands aren't fast enough now to use queens and how he wants to cut them off. Dunno why his afreecan fan nick is queen anymore anyways. If anyone should have it then it should be Killer. Just as Air Jordan is still Air Jordan when he cannot jump anymore, these nicknames just stick. I've also seen ZerO use queens in his other matches. Even ZerO doesn't usually make queens until the late game.
Also, to be fair to ZerO, he beat Mind in games that were played the day before this match. Mind was also practicing TvZ specifically, whereas ZerO may have been browsing hot pics of scantily clad women (J/K)
+ Show Spoiler +I thought that the second game was one that could have gone either way. Also, one of the losses came when he went for an all-in counterattack after taking some serious damage from bunker/scv rush. Mind held it off with some clutch repair and sim city. It could have been a much closer match.
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On December 29 2013 02:59 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 15:35 EpiK wrote:On November 11 2013 07:43 vOdToasT wrote: I think it will come down to who's in better shape. zero is looking really good. It's as if he never left BW honestly This is pretty hilarious. + Show Spoiler + I hadn't seen it yet but I can't believe I just let the exact result get spoiled by clicking just one person's spoiler after they wrote "This is pretty hilarious". T__T I thought you were just going to reveal one event that was occurred in one game. + Show Spoiler +but now I realise the relevance of you saying it after quoting EpiK's post.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 28 2013 13:15 lemmata wrote: That took a while, but this match is finally happening tomorrow!
Time: Korean Standard Time, Saturday 2013-12-28, 9PM
In local time: Saturday, Dec 28 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
See the original post for the updated information!
I've submitted the event to the calendar, but it doesn't seem to be showing up yet. ouch, missed this. Guessing there are vods?
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The live restream of Zergman's cast lagged badly so our only hope of getting his casts is catching a re-run if he still does these. If you see him doing one ask an available mod in snipe chat / me sgs.stratos @skype so we can put him on and upload that later.
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Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?
Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses?
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On December 30 2013 18:39 fencer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?
Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses? D-ranked analysis ftw >> + Show Spoiler +By that time the muta threat was getting weaker every second as bio was getting stim/range/upgrades. His mutas were also somewhat low on hp throm the "complete destruction" of Mind's forces, so using them just to take advantage of the ridges to protect his 3rd was a good choice imo - if he flew in Mind's base, T would deal with it switfly and could take the opportunity to take out his 3rd. More importantly, ZerO was droning well so he didn't need to do damage.
He opted for a stronger mid game army at the cost of a delayed hive tech as Killer liked to do a lot back in the days but I'm not sure about the use of the army. He ambushed the Terran push right on the ridge without any proper surround, it went okayish but it only delayed the push for a little while, enough tanks survived and bio reinforcements are always there, so that's where things went wrong imo.
With this style you need to destroy the push and take control of the map before the next push forms and defilers are out. Or not go for defiler tech right after and follow up with more lurkers.
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On December 30 2013 19:27 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 18:39 fencer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?
Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses? D-ranked analysis ftw >> + Show Spoiler +By that time the muta threat was getting weaker every second as bio was getting stim/range/upgrades. His mutas were also somewhat low on hp throm the "complete destruction" of Mind's forces, so using them just to take advantage of the ridges to protect his 3rd was a good choice imo - if he flew in Mind's base, T would deal with it switfly and could take the opportunity to take out his 3rd. More importantly, ZerO was droning well so he didn't need to do damage.
He opted for a stronger mid game army at the cost of a delayed hive tech as Killer liked to do a lot back in the days but I'm not sure about the use of the army. He ambushed the Terran push right on the ridge without any proper surround, it went okayish but it only delayed the push for a little while, enough tanks survived and bio reinforcements are always there, so that's where things went wrong imo.
With this style you need to destroy the push and take control of the map before the next push forms and defilers are out. Or not go for defiler tech right after and follow up with more lurkers.
My post did come with a lot of question marks didn't it? No need for the attitude.
I guess his 3rd was a bit in jeopardy if he'd moved in to harass, but it seemed to me like the first engagement went pretty much as well as it possibly could have for Z and the T's standing army at that point was about a control group of M&M. Not taking any real advantage of it by using that 1 minute window to defend the 3rd by other means while moving in to harass with 9 mutas just seemed weird to me. What's the point of going 3 hatch muta if you're just going to use them to defend no matter how badly you crush the first push? But I could be wrong.
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Isn't the whole idea behind 3hatch muta stalling the terran's push before defiler comes out? 2hatch muta is agressive. 3hatch can be agressive if there's a hole to abuse but more often than not you don't actually see it do much direct damage. And the "D-ranked analysis" was just a warning for what's coming from me, I'm the D-ranked hero lol ^^
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Yeah maybe, I'm just worried that high level BW will take cues from other strategy games and have players turtle for 15+ minutes before anything happens.
+ Show Spoiler +The last high level HotS match I watched was a ZvP where literally no unit died until 200/200. The first "engagement" was just the Z saccing all of his lings to make room for better units. When the real battle took place at the P's natural the Z got destroyed badly and lost his entire army, but since he had 5k minerals piled up he remaxed instantly and a-moved into victory. I don't want that for BW.
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On December 30 2013 20:30 fencer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 19:27 Stratos wrote:On December 30 2013 18:39 fencer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyone else thought the first game was really weird (where Zero spawned at 1 o'clock)?
Zero went 3 hatch muta and completely destroyed Mind's first push with his mutaling, and then didn't counterattack at all with his 9 mutas (I counted them) that he had left? Like, he didn't even check if Mind had turrets up. He just let Mind macro in peace for 5 minutes and lost. Did he really need them for defense right then when he had just wiped more than two control groups of M&M with very little losses? D-ranked analysis ftw >> + Show Spoiler +By that time the muta threat was getting weaker every second as bio was getting stim/range/upgrades. His mutas were also somewhat low on hp throm the "complete destruction" of Mind's forces, so using them just to take advantage of the ridges to protect his 3rd was a good choice imo - if he flew in Mind's base, T would deal with it switfly and could take the opportunity to take out his 3rd. More importantly, ZerO was droning well so he didn't need to do damage.
He opted for a stronger mid game army at the cost of a delayed hive tech as Killer liked to do a lot back in the days but I'm not sure about the use of the army. He ambushed the Terran push right on the ridge without any proper surround, it went okayish but it only delayed the push for a little while, enough tanks survived and bio reinforcements are always there, so that's where things went wrong imo.
With this style you need to destroy the push and take control of the map before the next push forms and defilers are out. Or not go for defiler tech right after and follow up with more lurkers. My post did come with a lot of question marks didn't it? No need for the attitude. I guess his 3rd was a bit in jeopardy if he'd moved in to harass, but it seemed to me like the first engagement went pretty much as well as it possibly could have for Z and the T's standing army at that point was about a control group of M&M. Not taking any real advantage of it by using that 1 minute window to defend the 3rd by other means while moving in to harass with 9 mutas just seemed weird to me. What's the point of going 3 hatch muta if you're just going to use them to defend no matter how badly you crush the first push? But I could be wrong.
What attitude? Edit: oh was that the d level remark?
At that point of the game, there was nothing the mutas could do to hurt Terran. When u opt for three hatch muta, the intention of the muta is never to kill the Terran, it is to use the presence of the muta to delay the Terran. After the engagement, the mutas were already at lower HP, even nine marines would have killed them easily with turret support. If zero risked moving in with the mutas and lost them, he would lose map control completely and be extremely vulnerable to drops in either his main or third.
The attack u are referring to was not exactly how it seemed. Mind gave away that group of mm on purpose in order to buy time to set up defense in his base and get upgrades.
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I wonder if Mind feels better about himself now.
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Thanks for organizing this OP! Watching the vods on afreeca is pretty amazing, the picture is perfect.
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