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On October 09 2013 11:27 BearAttack wrote:
really it displays that oov is immature. if you cannot forgive a child for something they did wrong years ago and have never repeated since there is certainly a question about your maturity. as you grow older you realize that nobody is perfect and you must learn to accept the mistakes of others if they show a change. i used to rob everyone possible to get a drug fix and now i am a student that shows the utmost respect to others and is extremely polite to all. should i be continuously punished for my wrongdoings in the past? will that not force me back into the same old patterns?
Savior wasn't a child. He was a grown man who cheated at a major league competitive level and is in the Korean legal system as a lawbreaker. As a person, I forgive him. In fact, as a person, I feel really bad for him. But you have to understand that Savior is Korean A-Rod.
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Bisutopia19262 Posts
On October 09 2013 11:27 BearAttack wrote:
really it displays that oov is immature. if you cannot forgive a child for something they did wrong years ago and have never repeated since there is certainly a question about your maturity. as you grow older you realize that nobody is perfect and you must learn to accept the mistakes of others if they show a change. i used to rob everyone possible to get a drug fix and now i am a student that shows the utmost respect to others and is extremely polite to all. should i be continuously punished for my wrongdoings in the past? will that not force me back into the same old patterns?
This topic has been beaten to death, but why should we forgive someone that hasn't asked for forgiveness. Savior has owned up to his mistakes and he should continue to be criticized until he learns from what he did. You example of your life enforces why we shouldn't not let down on him.
you must learn to accept the mistakes of others if they show a change.
He didn't change. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426507 This is change. Hwasin changed and he worked hard for it and I'm really happy for him. People on TL aren't sitting here just giddy with hate for this person. We are sitting here disappointed that we can't love someone because they won't own up to what they did.
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Bisutopia19262 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:22 L3gendary wrote:Saw this on reddit haha + Show Spoiler +
That's awesome!
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Heh, L3gendary, that's really funny.
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On October 09 2013 11:27 BearAttack wrote:
really it displays that oov is immature. if you cannot forgive a child for something they did wrong years ago and have never repeated since there is certainly a question about your maturity. as you grow older you realize that nobody is perfect and you must learn to accept the mistakes of others if they show a change. i used to rob everyone possible to get a drug fix and now i am a student that shows the utmost respect to others and is extremely polite to all. should i be continuously punished for my wrongdoings in the past? will that not force me back into the same old patterns?
When people whose job security and trust was destroyed by savior feels like they're ready to forgive him they will. Until then you can't claim moral high ground by telling people they're immature for not forgiving. Did the people you robbed forgive you? I guess if you return what you stole and apologize to them in person they might. Too bad what savior took, he can never return.
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I have some professional experience with Korean-English/English-Korean translation of books and web sites. It is not clear what the sentence in question really means due to the nature of the Korean language. I suppose pronoun ambiguity in informal speech is often a problem in English, too, but it is an even bigger problem in Korean. Even people with a good formal education often speak ambiguously without intending to do so. I provide two translations of the same sentence below. Translation #1 makes more sense within the context of the surrounding sentences and what we know about iloveoov. Translation #2 is also valid, but I don't think it makes sense for iloveoov to be criticizing people for just broadcasting. From what I can see, the previously posted translation takes a more sentence-for-sentence/word-for-word style. Such translation styles often end up being less accurate than one might expect them to be. There is a famous saying in Korea about how you need to hear the entire conversation in order to make sense of what is being said in Korean.
Alternate Translation
+ Show Spoiler +Q: Yes (laughter). Let's move on to another topic. What sort of thoughts did you have after watching Bisu retire recently?
iloveoov: It made me sad, especially because he's not leaving on top. There was a rumor that he was going to play savior on Afreeca recently. If Bisu really plays savior, then he's just as bad as savior. When the match-fixing scandal broke, three of our practice players came to me in tears and asked if they could continue as pro gamers. If anyone hangs out with savior after seeing that, then that person is on savior's level. [Ambiguous sentence in question follows] Possible translation #1: I know that many retired players are BJ's on Afreeca. If they truly care about eSports and the younger pro gamers who came after them, then they would not hang out with savior. / Possible translation #2: I know that many retired players are BJ's on Afreeca. If they truly care about eSports and the younger pro gamers who came after them, then they would not be broadcasting on the Internet. That Bisu even thought about playing against savior makes me angry. I hope from the bottom of my heart that such a thing never comes to pass.
iloveoov probably got the wrong idea. Bisu has been saying that he doesn't want to play savior. Honestly, I understand his anger. People say that Blizzard killed Brood War, which might or might not be true. We don't know who delivered the final blow, but savior was the one who delivered the first. In particular, recruiting someone on Air Force Ace to take part in the match-fixing conspiracy was such a huge deal. If you want to know why everyone has to retire for sure when they enter the army, well savior is your answer. Remember when Yellow beat Bisu in Pro League? Yellow was on the Air Force team while serving in the military. That kind of thing is not likely to happen again in a long time. Military service is the biggest conundrum faced by any Korean professional athlete with a limited number of prime earning years.
Before savior punched eSports in the kidney, eSports was officially supported by the Korean government. Boxer got to meet the president. The government has been hostile toward online gaming post-scandal, even passing laws that limit online game usage. Kingdom was shooting expletives left and right when the scandal first broke. I'd say that iloveoov is being a gentleman by refraining from swearing like a sailor.
Aside:
+ Show Spoiler +Boxer really laid the foundations for the long-term sustainability of eSports in Korea when he convinced the military to create a team. Looking back on his career in light of his recent retirement from coaching, it's pretty clear that no one else did more for eSports than that man, even if he was overtaken by the later generations in terms of game skills. He created the first pro team. He created the idea of the salaried pro gamer (rather than one that lives off prize money), which made the profession more respectable and reduced the economic risk involved. He was responsible for actions that led to eSports codifying rules of play like any other sport. He was essentially responsible for Air Force Ace. It is said that he was using a stopwatch to practice before anyone else had conceived the idea of attack timings.
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On October 09 2013 10:19 forumtext wrote:Let's talk about Bisu's retirement.+ Show Spoiler +First of all I think it's regrettable. Because he did not retire at his peak, it's even more unfortunate. I've recently heard that he was streaming matches vs Savior, if this it's true then he is in the same boat as Savior. After the match fixing scandal broke out, 3 B-teamers came to me in tears asking if they will be able to continue. Bisu seem to be in good terms with Savior, if this is true the he has fallen to Savior's level, this also includes other younger players. I know a lot of retired players started streaming. If they really care about Esport and the younger generation, then I don't think they should do this. As for "Is Bisu going to play Savior", the thought of this makes me very angry. I sincerely do not wish this to happen. Can someone that reads Korean please confirm if Oov is really saying what I think he is saying.
I dont know what to think, but iloveoov is obviously extremely biased.
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Let's stop talking about this; IMHO oov is right in saying that Bisu should refrain from associating with those who were part of the scandal, plain and simple as that. He's just too good a player to spend time being caught up in that.
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On October 09 2013 11:27 BearAttack wrote:
really it displays that oov is immature. if you cannot forgive a child for something they did wrong years ago and have never repeated since there is certainly a question about your maturity. as you grow older you realize that nobody is perfect and you must learn to accept the mistakes of others if they show a change. i used to rob everyone possible to get a drug fix and now i am a student that shows the utmost respect to others and is extremely polite to all. should i be continuously punished for my wrongdoings in the past? will that not force me back into the same old patterns?
Amm Savior unlike the other participants of the scandal hasn't apologized or shown any remorse. More importantly unlike the majority of players who pleaded guilty, he stuck to his story right to the end and also it's common knowledge that Savior was the one who contacted the players and helped to set the thing up.
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On October 09 2013 14:28 Ciryandor wrote:
Let's stop talking about this; IMHO oov is right in saying that Bisu should refrain from associating with those who were part of the scandal, plain and simple as that. He's just too good a player to spend time being caught up in that.
You say we stop talking about it then proceeds to give your own opinions it. LOL
Anyways, I get that why oov is angry and I get why Bisu is in good terms with Savior. And that's all oov is going to be .. angry. what can he do about it? Bisu has done his fair share of hardships during his time in T1 so he would know the feeling of what those B-teamers had that oov talked. Also, savior being unapologetic still makes him hated until now. They all thought that e-sports was incorruptible and they were so wrong. lol
On October 09 2013 13:35 lemmata wrote:
People say that Blizzard killed Brood War, which might or might not be true.
I'm pretty sure they Blizzard killed broodwar, BW was bound to die of natural death from cancer (kpop) and from a backstab (match fixing) anyway but Blizzard pulled the plug on its last life support and was killed.
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TLADT24920 Posts
hmm can't blame oov for his stance against savior. What disappoints me the most is that he hasn't apologized for what he did and seems like he won't. If he apologized and tried to at least show remorse, then I'm sure there are some who will forgive him for what he's done. BW is smaller now but the players are unified and it feels more personal. When was the last time Bisu or any BW player thanked TL and his foreign fans? Infact, most BW players didn't even realize there are foreign fans until after SCII was released. My point? oov's point is valid and the scene certainly took a major hit but it's still alive and more personal now than it's ever been 
On October 09 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 14:28 Ciryandor wrote:
Let's stop talking about this; IMHO oov is right in saying that Bisu should refrain from associating with those who were part of the scandal, plain and simple as that. He's just too good a player to spend time being caught up in that. You say we stop talking about it then proceeds to give your own opinions it. LOL Anyways, I get that why oov is angry and I get why Bisu is in good terms with Savior. And that's all oov is going to be .. angry. what can he do about it? Bisu has done his fair share of hardships during his time in T1 so he would know the feeling of what those B-teamers had that oov talked. Also, savior being unapologetic still makes him hated until now. They all thought that e-sports was incorruptible and they were so wrong. lol Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 13:35 lemmata wrote:
People say that Blizzard killed Brood War, which might or might not be true.
I'm pretty sure they Blizzard killed broodwar, BW was bound to die of natural death from cancer (kpop) and from a backstab (match fixing) anyway but Blizzard pulled the plug on its last life support and was killed.
Based on your last part, they were but a factor in its death since kpop and match fixing scandal played a bigger role imo.
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On October 09 2013 15:56 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 09 2013 14:28 Ciryandor wrote:
Let's stop talking about this; IMHO oov is right in saying that Bisu should refrain from associating with those who were part of the scandal, plain and simple as that. He's just too good a player to spend time being caught up in that. You say we stop talking about it then proceeds to give your own opinions it. LOL Anyways, I get that why oov is angry and I get why Bisu is in good terms with Savior. And that's all oov is going to be .. angry. what can he do about it? Bisu has done his fair share of hardships during his time in T1 so he would know the feeling of what those B-teamers had that oov talked. Also, savior being unapologetic still makes him hated until now. They all thought that e-sports was incorruptible and they were so wrong. lol On October 09 2013 13:35 lemmata wrote:
People say that Blizzard killed Brood War, which might or might not be true.
I'm pretty sure they Blizzard killed broodwar, BW was bound to die of natural death from cancer (kpop) and from a backstab (match fixing) anyway but Blizzard pulled the plug on its last life support and was killed. Based on your last part, they were but a factor in its death since kpop and match fixing scandal played a bigger role imo.
Lol it's not kpop's fault bw was being killed by the scandal. MBCGame would've been gone anyway whether they decide to turn it into MBCMusic or into something else. It's funny seeing some TL posters hating on kpop ever since it happened. It's not like MBC really needed to make MBCMusic that time and had to sacrifice MBCGame.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On October 09 2013 14:25 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 10:19 forumtext wrote:Let's talk about Bisu's retirement.+ Show Spoiler +First of all I think it's regrettable. Because he did not retire at his peak, it's even more unfortunate. I've recently heard that he was streaming matches vs Savior, if this it's true then he is in the same boat as Savior. After the match fixing scandal broke out, 3 B-teamers came to me in tears asking if they will be able to continue. Bisu seem to be in good terms with Savior, if this is true the he has fallen to Savior's level, this also includes other younger players. I know a lot of retired players started streaming. If they really care about Esport and the younger generation, then I don't think they should do this. As for "Is Bisu going to play Savior", the thought of this makes me very angry. I sincerely do not wish this to happen. Can someone that reads Korean please confirm if Oov is really saying what I think he is saying. I dont know what to think, but iloveoov is obviously extremely biased.
I think Oov is just saying that people shouldn't stream games with savior. And quite frankly that is a perfectly sensibe sentiment to have.
The alternative translation seems a bit far fetched, these retired players streaming is the best thing to happen to BW for some time, I would find it hard to believe oov is against retired players streaming, period, even if he is still personally invested in SC2.
The former interpretation is just indicative of the scene's disdain for savior, the latter would be Oov pissing all over the BW scene, the very scene where he made his name. I find it hard to believe that he, just as a human being would be that much of a dick. So I think the former translation would be OVERWHELMINGLY likely.
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On October 09 2013 13:35 lemmata wrote:I have some professional experience with Korean-English/English-Korean translation of books and web sites. It is not clear what the sentence in question really means due to the nature of the Korean language. I suppose pronoun ambiguity in informal speech is often a problem in English, too, but it is an even bigger problem in Korean. Even people with a good formal education often speak ambiguously without intending to do so. I provide two translations of the same sentence below. Translation #1 makes more sense within the context of the surrounding sentences and what we know about iloveoov. Translation #2 is also valid, but I don't think it makes sense for iloveoov to be criticizing people for just broadcasting. From what I can see, the previously posted translation takes a more sentence-for-sentence/word-for-word style. Such translation styles often end up being less accurate than one might expect them to be. There is a famous saying in Korea about how you need to hear the entire conversation in order to make sense of what is being said in Korean. Alternate Translation + Show Spoiler +Q: Yes (laughter). Let's move on to another topic. What sort of thoughts did you have after watching Bisu retire recently?
iloveoov: It made me sad, especially because he's not leaving on top. There was a rumor that he was going to play savior on Afreeca recently. If Bisu really plays savior, then he's just as bad as savior. When the match-fixing scandal broke, three of our practice players came to me in tears and asked if they could continue as pro gamers. If anyone hangs out with savior after seeing that, then that person is on savior's level. [Ambiguous sentence in question follows] Possible translation #1: I know that many retired players are BJ's on Afreeca. If they truly care about eSports and the younger pro gamers who came after them, then they would not hang out with savior. / Possible translation #2: I know that many retired players are BJ's on Afreeca. If they truly care about eSports and the younger pro gamers who came after them, then they would not be broadcasting on the Internet. That Bisu even thought about playing against savior makes me angry. I hope from the bottom of my heart that such a thing never comes to pass.
iloveoov probably got the wrong idea. Bisu has been saying that he doesn't want to play savior. Honestly, I understand his anger. People say that Blizzard killed Brood War, which might or might not be true. We don't know who delivered the final blow, but savior was the one who delivered the first. In particular, recruiting someone on Air Force Ace to take part in the match-fixing conspiracy was such a huge deal. If you want to know why everyone has to retire for sure when they enter the army, well savior is your answer. Remember when Yellow beat Bisu in Pro League? Yellow was on the Air Force team while serving in the military. That kind of thing is not likely to happen again in a long time. Military service is the biggest conundrum faced by any Korean professional athlete with a limited number of prime earning years. Before savior punched eSports in the kidney, eSports was officially supported by the Korean government. Boxer got to meet the president. The government has been hostile toward online gaming post-scandal, even passing laws that limit online game usage. Kingdom was shooting expletives left and right when the scandal first broke. I'd say that iloveoov is being a gentleman by refraining from swearing like a sailor. Aside: + Show Spoiler +Boxer really laid the foundations for the long-term sustainability of eSports in Korea when he convinced the military to create a team. Looking back on his career in light of his recent retirement from coaching, it's pretty clear that no one else did more for eSports than that man, even if he was overtaken by the later generations in terms of game skills. He created the first pro team. He created the idea of the salaried pro gamer (rather than one that lives off prize money), which made the profession more respectable and reduced the economic risk involved. He was responsible for actions that led to eSports codifying rules of play like any other sport. He was essentially responsible for Air Force Ace. It is said that he was using a stopwatch to practice before anyone else had conceived the idea of attack timings.
Thanks for a great first post. You should post more on TL!
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On October 06 2013 23:38 shaftofpleasure wrote:wow .. That's drug dealing level right there ..
You might be on to something...
TIL
- Bisu is a money laundering drug dealer
- Bisu watches Breaking bad for inspiration.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On October 09 2013 18:06 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 23:38 shaftofpleasure wrote:wow .. That's drug dealing level right there .. You might be on to something... TIL - Bisu is a money laundering drug dealer - Bisu watches Breaking bad for inspiration.
and those balloons, they are filled with cocaine!
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I kinda get why Oov is angry, but Bisu didn't do anything wrong in my opinion. If anything, Oov should applaud Bisu's decision to stream BW instead of playing a game that he doesn't like. As for Savior, he got punished for what he did and I think that that's enough. No need to hunt him (or the people who in any way deal with him) forever. Sure, he could've asked for forgiveness, that would've made him look a little bit better at least. But if being punished by law is not enough, then what's the point of punishing people in the first place? This 'once a criminal, always a criminal' mentality is not good for anyone.
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Is Bisu still being tracked? What's his total balloon-count now? I was watching yesterday and he got like 3000, 5000 and 10000 balloons from single donators.
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On October 09 2013 18:06 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 23:38 shaftofpleasure wrote:wow .. That's drug dealing level right there .. You might be on to something... TIL - Bisu is a money laundering drug dealer - Bisu watches Breaking bad for inspiration.
Maybe bisu has lung cancer?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Occ1L6E.jpg)
