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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
I don't think anyone can deny Artosis has done a lot for BW, between SCforAll in the past, the Pylon show and his commentary, he's brought a lot of people to BW, advertised many tournaments and brought us a lot of information on the Korean scene. I also like Artosis' commentary.
I pretty much agree with everything Bigfan and a few others have said. But what I never see mentioned is that Artosis is a bad role model. Regardless if most people watching his stream are in their 30s, there will also be younger people, there will be teenage boys in there who think this sort of behaviour is acceptable; that when you lose it's never your fault, you can bm your opponent, that you are not responsible for your own actions or failings. Teenage boys are impressionable.
A few years ago when I was between jobs I subbed in a school for a few weeks, I was really surprised that on breaks most of the boys spent their time watching Twitch, the "trouble-makers" watched Fortnite, most watched Minecraft and those into gaming in general checked out other streams and games. I would not want any of those kids to watch Artosis' stream, not only if they see adults behaving like that would it be a bad influence on them, but it would make them think that's what the BW community is like and that is bad for new younger people coming to the game.
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On January 17 2022 01:43 kaboombaby wrote:
In the modern world people like Artosis bring tremendous value to the scene of a game and if he were to suddenly vanish those viewers wouldn't disseminate into other BW scenes, they'd just be gone.
This was, honestly, exactly the point I was trying to make before. Does this sound like someone who is "expanding the scene" or "expanding their own viewership"? Artosis absolutely brings more viewers to StarCraft on Twitch, I don't think anyone could deny that (or is denying that). The problem in my eyes is that he does so in a way that is divisive rather than collaborative, that doesn't try to build up the community and the game for longevity. I really want the game to last long-term, and I'd really like to feel like Artosis was working towards that as well, but instead it feels a lot like he's often trying to build a walled garden.
I can't imagine that a mature adult would read that and not think it's valid criticism, I don't know why we need to dip into accusations that this comes from "jealousy", or that this qualifies as "hate".
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Artosis is probably gonna read this thread to his chat during the next stream, laugh, and call a few posters moron, while making some extra bucks via TTS in the process.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
Artosis (probably) pulls views into the big Korean tournies, especially when they were doing the official broadcasts. Perhaps those views translate to people playing the game, I dunno.
I see a ton of foreign tournaments, practice groups etc organised by people here over my whole span here, and no doubt preceding that.
As somehow who is too old to get even semi-competent at BW without becoming unemployed, I’m exclusively a viewer.
A scene is multi-faceted and people can take different niches, sometimes yes a scene has some absolute obvious overlord/saviour, but usually it’s a collective endeavour
Artosis could be akin to a radio DJ, occasionally spinning up some classic famous jazz tunes or something. Maybe that gets me into jazz but if I’ve got nobody to play with, or there’s no local club or whatever, then there’s nowhere to run with my newfound interest. Alternatively I may just enjoy the odd jazz tune when DJ Arty spins it and not seek it out elsewhere, which isn’t really feeding back into the scene, but isn’t particularly detrimental either.
I could see the argument if DJ Arty attracted a ton of people mimicking his shitty behaviour being a net negative and Dave’s Jazz Cavern became an awful place for long term jazz fans
Which I think is a fair criticism, although I can’t speak to its validity as I’m a mere interloper here, having quit BW before even WC3 came out and never being aware of this fine site and the scene until SC2 brought me back
Ultimately takes a lot of different types to make a scene, can’t do everything. Pissing contests over who is more integral/important to a scene is missing that point, IMO and I think either of ‘Artosis did nothing for the scene’ and ‘Artosis did the most by far for the scene’ kinda miss that point.
Hell even Grubby who is hardly toxic got a fair bit of flak for the crime of ‘having a successful stream and having done things other than WC3 for a while’
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Artosis being destroyed again by the 4-5 bw users left on TL.
I think is not even fair to discuss who is the one that have done the most for Foreign BW. I could say that person is MCA64
with his amazing launcher that fixed most of the bugs on windows 7 for BW. Could be Yoda who since 2009 when everyone switched to SC2 started to host tourneys. Or the russians that keep making Lans every year. Maybe the Peruvian community that is always super active and hosted lan and tourneys since ever and still does it. Or Maybe the chineses.
Maybe ZZZero have done the most.Schamtoo could be one too. Hard to tell.Artosis surely opened many doors in Korea and showed the insides. You could say he put the starcraft category on twitch some ranks up.
Moktira: Artosis is bad role model: Well maybe. he made a career based in gaming. You dont want kids to believe that is possible i guess.But so did Ninja and many others. ( Artosis being bm to his oponents in front of his 2k viewers is not Moktira. Get your shit together. Are u also a guy that says GTA is making people criminals ? )
Tec: The problem in my eyes is that he does so in a way that is divisive rather than collaborative, that doesn't try to build up the community and the game for longevity. I really want the game to last long-term, and I'd really like to feel like Artosis was working towards that as well
Artosis is not even part of the (foreign community) when it comes to tournaments etc. He plays in Korea servers with korean players all the time. Him just using the BSL tag on ladder bring eyes to the BSL even if he knows his chances are super low to qualify based in the region he plays.Brood war is 2 decades already. The game will not die cuz the way Artosis acts. And is not Artosis job to to do wathever you mention. But those are your expectations i guess.
Some others mentioning the Patreon for ASL.
Is easy to say now when it reached that high peak of 12k or something.But that wasnt the initial goal. What it showed is the support that Tastosis has to backup them from all those years casting.That wasnt the foreign Brood War community that made it happen. Im sure most of the people are from SC2. Just look at how ZZZero struggles to get funding each season for BSL. Foreign BW doesnt support him much.
So keep hating on Artosis for wathever reason u come with as always..
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On January 17 2022 09:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Artosis being destroyed again by the 4-5 bw users left on TL.
I think is not even fair to discuss who is the one that have done the most for Foreign BW. I could say that person is MCA64
with his amazing launcher that fixed most of the bugs on windows 7 for BW. Could be Yoda who since 2009 when everyone switched to SC2 started to host tourneys. Or the russians that keep making Lans every year. Maybe the Peruvian community that is always super active and hosted lan and tourneys since ever and still does it. Or Maybe the chineses.
Maybe ZZZero have done the most.Schamtoo could be one too. Hard to tell.Artosis surely opened many doors in Korea and showed the insides. You could say he put the starcraft category on twitch some ranks up.
Moktira: Artosis is bad role model: Well maybe. he made a career based in gaming. You dont want kids to believe that is possible i guess.But so did Ninja and many others. ( Artosis being bm to his oponents in front of his 2k viewers is not Moktira. Get your shit together. Are u also a guy that says GTA is making people criminals ? )
Tec: The problem in my eyes is that he does so in a way that is divisive rather than collaborative, that doesn't try to build up the community and the game for longevity. I really want the game to last long-term, and I'd really like to feel like Artosis was working towards that as well
Artosis is not even part of the (foreign community) when it comes to tournaments etc. He plays in Korea servers with korean players all the time. Him just using the BSL tag on ladder bring eyes to the BSL even if he knows his chances are super low to qualify based in the region he plays.Brood war is 2 decades already. The game will not die cuz the way Artosis acts. And is not Artosis job to to do wathever you mention. But those are your expectations i guess.
Some others mentioning the Patreon for ASL.
Is easy to say now when it reached that high peak of 12k or something.But that wasnt the initial goal. What it showed is the support that Tastosis has to backup them from all those years casting.That wasnt the foreign Brood War community that made it happen. Im sure most of the people are from SC2. Just look at how ZZZero struggles to get funding each season for BSL. Foreign BW doesnt support him much.
So keep hating on Artosis for wathever reason u come with as always..
I think I've been incredibly clear that I don't fault him for choosing his own personal success over that of the game/community as a whole, it is indeed a choice he can make and I don't think there's anything like, morally wrong with doing so. But I do think it's an unfortunate choice to make and it sucks for the rest of us, given that he could potentially do so much more, without really sacrificing his own outcomes.
Dismissing any criticism here as a bunch of "haters always hating" when so much of it is reasonable and thought-out (even if you disagree) isn't productive.
Artosis is absolutely part of the foreign community, he exclusively draws foreign viewership. And you saying that he's "not a part of it" is exactly what I am talking about: he feels so disconnected from everything else happening despite clearly appealing only to people outside of Korea. He puts on the BSL tag because he would like to qualify for BSL (he's not, after all, going to be qualifying for any Korean events), any other motivation there is extremely revisionist given how he has acted about it in the past.
When I look around at other games, I often find larger streamers who do a much better job of spreading viewership and attention to things happening in their communities, supporting efforts that are going on, etc. I'd like BW to have that too, so that the rest of us have a chance of actually being able to play this game in 5 years. But I guess stating that is just being a "hater"?
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Artosis' stream persona is like a heel in pro wrestling. I dunno if it's real or not but it's damn entertaining.
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
On January 17 2022 09:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Moktira: Artosis is bad role model: Well maybe. he made a career based in gaming. You dont want kids to believe that is possible i guess.
If you think I think this you clearly didn't read my whole post. Why would me thinking his attitude is a bad influence on younger people think I don't want kids to believe it's possible to make a career based in gaming? Unless you think the only way to make a career in gaming is to be negative towards your opponent. On the pro-scene before leaving a game players always type "GG" (good game), not "ur bad".
But so did Ninja and many others. ( Artosis being bm to his oponents in front of his 2k viewers is not Moktira. Get your shit together. Are u also a guy that says GTA is making people criminals ? )
I don't watch Ninja and know nothing about him so don't know what you mean here, presumably he also disrespects his opponents from what you say so then I also don't think that's good for younger viewers. I was taking you seriously until your last point. Why would anyone think that? Playing a game should not be equated to watching an actual adult male who is a big influence in the community, kids emulate popular people's mannerisms and behaviours, they don't however watch or play a Batman game and then go fight crime. They know the difference between fiction and reality. They will also learn some norms from real adults, especially influential ones.
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I wouldn't mind a bit of toxicity and clown mode if he really helped the scene and cared for it at least half as much as ToD does with WC3. He's a perfect example of a toxic player who despite that fact, genuinely loves the game and the community and helps it wherever and whenever he can ("game x is bigger and more important than me, personality x and my personal gain" type of model). Often putting up his own money in the process. Mad respect to that guy, honestly.
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Moktira im not sure what we are arguing here. Artosis is a dad of multiple kids. a husband that feed his family.He is a bad role model in a 23+ years old game cuz he make excuses when he loss games ?
To me Artosis is buildt different.Wathever I check his stream his donations are the most insane and annoying thing I have seen in my life.And he keeps his sanity still.I have meet him in person and he is an incredible guy. When bakuryu and myself were in Korea for ASL he took care of our tickets.hotels. taxies. He pretty much babysit us to go for the ASL qualifiers. So excusme when I dont agree with that bad role shit when there is actual issues from real people.
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
I'm not saying he's not a decent guy, I've also met him in Korea and I liked him, I like his commentary and the news content he produced and produces, I do think he's a good guy and does a lot for the community. When I met him he also had to leave early cause of something with one of his kids so I've no doubt he's a great Dad too.
My point is I wouldn't want a kid getting their introduction to Starcraft from his Twitch stream (I really should have pointed out I meant just his streaming and not him as a person in my original post -- I could have said streaming persona). I don't think that would give a great introduction to playing Starcraft or the community, on TL there is an element of respect between posters, when watching pro-games there is respect to their opponents. I think a kid getting into BW seeing one of the most active streamers disrespect their opponents will give them a bad impression -- that was all I was trying to say. That does not mean I think he's an overall negative, but I wish he didn't have that negativity.
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I hope he keeps doing what he’s doing.
The stream, chat, donations and his tantrums are fun as hell to me.
He’s also doing ffas, comments on pro games, having other fun interactions with his viewers other than negative comments.
The negativity just gets all the attention.
We get the whole package so let him do as he pleases, and roflmao he’s not in charge of raising our kids ffs
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On January 17 2022 20:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Moktira im not sure what we are arguing here. Artosis is a dad of multiple kids. a husband that feed his family.He is a bad role model in a 23+ years old game cuz he make excuses when he loss games ?
To me Artosis is buildt different.Wathever I check his stream his donations are the most insane and annoying thing I have seen in my life.And he keeps his sanity still.I have meet him in person and he is an incredible guy. When bakuryu and myself were in Korea for ASL he took care of our tickets.hotels. taxies. He pretty much babysit us to go for the ASL qualifiers. So excusme when I dont agree with that bad role shit when there is actual issues from real people.
You don’t know that unless you know Artosis from outside his stream and what else he does. I don’t dispute any of that. In my one time meeting him, and some Discord interactions around the (sadly defunct) show In Depth, and just general anecdotes I’ve heard he’s a great guy.
Kids do emulate what streamers do, especially when playing that same game, in a manner they don’t emulate fictional characters. It’s their gateway into a game and if the big streamers behave in certain ways, then that’s a tacit signal as to what constitutes acceptable behaviour within that game.
As both weekend dad and designated video game parent a larger chunk of time than I’d like is spent reprogramming annoying habits that he sure as hell didn’t pick up from me, or his mother/stepdad who don’t play games
Which is fine, it’s part of parenting, but kids do pick this stuff up. It’s not comparable to ‘computer games will corrupt the youth’ scaremongering because that is total bollocks and has been shown to be again and again, but kids do seek to emulate public figures they admire.
Basically what Moktira said. Not the biggest deal in the world ultimately, but still a real deal.
If his stream consists of people who come primarily to watch Arty rage, people who actively play BW and people who actively watch other BW, I just wonder how much intersection there is.
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On January 17 2022 23:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2022 20:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Moktira im not sure what we are arguing here. Artosis is a dad of multiple kids. a husband that feed his family.He is a bad role model in a 23+ years old game cuz he make excuses when he loss games ?
To me Artosis is buildt different.Wathever I check his stream his donations are the most insane and annoying thing I have seen in my life.And he keeps his sanity still.I have meet him in person and he is an incredible guy. When bakuryu and myself were in Korea for ASL he took care of our tickets.hotels. taxies. He pretty much babysit us to go for the ASL qualifiers. So excusme when I dont agree with that bad role shit when there is actual issues from real people. You don’t know that unless you know Artosis from outside his stream and what else he does. I don’t dispute any of that. In my one time meeting him, and some Discord interactions around the (sadly defunct) show In Depth, and just general anecdotes I’ve heard he’s a great guy. Kids do emulate what streamers do, especially when playing that same game, in a manner they don’t emulate fictional characters. It’s their gateway into a game and if the big streamers behave in certain ways, then that’s a tacit signal as to what constitutes acceptable behaviour within that game. As both weekend dad and designated video game parent a larger chunk of time than I’d like is spent reprogramming annoying habits that he sure as hell didn’t pick up from me, or his mother/stepdad who don’t play games Which is fine, it’s part of parenting, but kids do pick this stuff up. It’s not comparable to ‘computer games will corrupt the youth’ scaremongering because that is total bollocks and has been shown to be again and again, but kids do seek to emulate public figures they admire. Basically what Moktira said. Not the biggest deal in the world ultimately, but still a real deal. If his stream consists of people who come primarily to watch Arty rage, people who actively play BW and people who actively watch other BW, I just wonder how much intersection there is.
Then do you agree that GTA or crime movies or music with lyrics like I will kill you.Is also really bad ? or it only applies to the 2k viewers of Artosis somehow that complains about protoss ?
The vibez im getting from all of you is that Artosis is at fault if BW doesnt survive 2 years. Artosis is at fault cuz he is a bad example for kids. At this rate maybe Artosis is at fault for Covid or other world issues too.
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Pretty amazing that the world has survived Eminem and the angry Nintendo nerd tbh.
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United States43355 Posts
On January 18 2022 00:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2022 23:35 WombaT wrote:On January 17 2022 20:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Moktira im not sure what we are arguing here. Artosis is a dad of multiple kids. a husband that feed his family.He is a bad role model in a 23+ years old game cuz he make excuses when he loss games ?
To me Artosis is buildt different.Wathever I check his stream his donations are the most insane and annoying thing I have seen in my life.And he keeps his sanity still.I have meet him in person and he is an incredible guy. When bakuryu and myself were in Korea for ASL he took care of our tickets.hotels. taxies. He pretty much babysit us to go for the ASL qualifiers. So excusme when I dont agree with that bad role shit when there is actual issues from real people. You don’t know that unless you know Artosis from outside his stream and what else he does. I don’t dispute any of that. In my one time meeting him, and some Discord interactions around the (sadly defunct) show In Depth, and just general anecdotes I’ve heard he’s a great guy. Kids do emulate what streamers do, especially when playing that same game, in a manner they don’t emulate fictional characters. It’s their gateway into a game and if the big streamers behave in certain ways, then that’s a tacit signal as to what constitutes acceptable behaviour within that game. As both weekend dad and designated video game parent a larger chunk of time than I’d like is spent reprogramming annoying habits that he sure as hell didn’t pick up from me, or his mother/stepdad who don’t play games Which is fine, it’s part of parenting, but kids do pick this stuff up. It’s not comparable to ‘computer games will corrupt the youth’ scaremongering because that is total bollocks and has been shown to be again and again, but kids do seek to emulate public figures they admire. Basically what Moktira said. Not the biggest deal in the world ultimately, but still a real deal. If his stream consists of people who come primarily to watch Arty rage, people who actively play BW and people who actively watch other BW, I just wonder how much intersection there is. Then do you agree that GTA or crime movies or music with lyrics like I will kill you.Is also really bad ? or it only applies to the 2k viewers of Artosis somehow that complains about protoss ? The vibez im getting from all of you is that Artosis is at fault if BW doesnt survive 2 years. Artosis is at fault cuz he is a bad example for kids. At this rate maybe Artosis is at fault for Covid or other world issues too.
I don’t think anyone said any of the words you’re putting in their mouths.
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I agree that some of his viewers are weird and annoying. Some of those donation alerts are real annoying. I mailny like watching/listening him cast or do ban/unban.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On January 18 2022 00:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2022 23:35 WombaT wrote:On January 17 2022 20:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Moktira im not sure what we are arguing here. Artosis is a dad of multiple kids. a husband that feed his family.He is a bad role model in a 23+ years old game cuz he make excuses when he loss games ?
To me Artosis is buildt different.Wathever I check his stream his donations are the most insane and annoying thing I have seen in my life.And he keeps his sanity still.I have meet him in person and he is an incredible guy. When bakuryu and myself were in Korea for ASL he took care of our tickets.hotels. taxies. He pretty much babysit us to go for the ASL qualifiers. So excusme when I dont agree with that bad role shit when there is actual issues from real people. You don’t know that unless you know Artosis from outside his stream and what else he does. I don’t dispute any of that. In my one time meeting him, and some Discord interactions around the (sadly defunct) show In Depth, and just general anecdotes I’ve heard he’s a great guy. Kids do emulate what streamers do, especially when playing that same game, in a manner they don’t emulate fictional characters. It’s their gateway into a game and if the big streamers behave in certain ways, then that’s a tacit signal as to what constitutes acceptable behaviour within that game. As both weekend dad and designated video game parent a larger chunk of time than I’d like is spent reprogramming annoying habits that he sure as hell didn’t pick up from me, or his mother/stepdad who don’t play games Which is fine, it’s part of parenting, but kids do pick this stuff up. It’s not comparable to ‘computer games will corrupt the youth’ scaremongering because that is total bollocks and has been shown to be again and again, but kids do seek to emulate public figures they admire. Basically what Moktira said. Not the biggest deal in the world ultimately, but still a real deal. If his stream consists of people who come primarily to watch Arty rage, people who actively play BW and people who actively watch other BW, I just wonder how much intersection there is. Then do you agree that GTA or crime movies or music with lyrics like I will kill you.Is also really bad ? or it only applies to the 2k viewers of Artosis somehow that complains about protoss ? The vibez im getting from all of you is that Artosis is at fault if BW doesnt survive 2 years. Artosis is at fault cuz he is a bad example for kids. At this rate maybe Artosis is at fault for Covid or other world issues too.
Considering I put ‘It’s not comparable to ‘computer games will corrupt the youth’ scaremongering because that is total bollocks and has been shown to be again and again’ in my post, well no.
I’ve played violent games way beyond the recommended age range with kiddo, as I did myself when I was younger. But he does not have access to Twitch yet, and for a reason.
I’ve also said on balance Artosis does a lot of good for the wider (both) Starcrafts community.
You really need to recalibrate your vibe detector because it seems miles off given what you’re attributing to people vs what they’ve actually said.
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EPT
