in fact i want lost temple on too, add like 15+ maps and increase the veto proportionately, allow a free market place of maps for the greatest amount of broodwar, why this artificial and rotating limit? let people play what they want, they will suffer the consequential wait time if their choice is unpopular, afterall
I'm all for your idea if it's doable witout increasing waiting time but I have one concern if they took really old maps: I wasn't around online LT-time but I reckon some of those old maps are really broken by today's standards? Because of things like naturals that are too hard to take for certain races, no accessible 3rds/4ths (with gas), rush-distances or air-distances too small, not enough space to move big armies etc.
Sure those things can be a nice challenge, too, but if you just cannot play the meta (including it's numerous variations/adaptations) that constitutes the current balance on those maps then it wouldn't be a fair challenge, which many would consider a sine qua non for good competition.
They would have to make it so that those broken maps can be 100% vetoed (which afaik is not the case now, you can play on vetoed maps sometimes? at least that's what an opponent told me once). I'm not someone who gives too much about ladder-points but it would really suck to have to play on maps for rank where it's just about fighting imbalances.
ok lets actually some of our brainjuices and apply them to this situation.
Thesis #1: For MatchMaker to work, both players have to have at least 1 map unbanned. Otherwise if MatchMaker cannot match close rated players IT STOPS WORKING. For 9 maps in the pool the max number of bans is 4. For 31 map mappool max number of bans is 15. Otherwise MatchMaker does not match players and is a useless piece of shit. Worthless. Broken. It goes beyond "wait time" if your proposed system gets in the way of it actually working. Also imagine opening ladder mappool and seeing 100 maps.
Thesis #2. Maps are a product of their time. There is a reason some maps are avoided as plague and Fighting Spirit is still played on. Kespa maps were created for tournaments with specific reasons, be it helping move the meta forward by combating prevalent racial imbalance AT THE TIME, unfavouring specific prevalent builds AT THE TIME etc. You don't hope to have Sparkle in the ladder map pool, do you? Or how about island WCG maps?
Your suggestion turns ladder into a joke. Have you played ladder at the start of SC:R? If you missed it for whatever reason, it actually had Nostalgia, Python, Arkadia, Outsider, FS and CB. I had a bug that let me to ban more maps than 3 and I banned every shitty dated map other than FS and CB at the time. Do you want ladder rating mean who tank rushes to cliff at Lost Temple better? We need to move forwards, not backwards. Rotate FS and CB out, not get LT and Python back. Ladder is for here and now, game has moved on.
I'm having second thoughts about buying a game that drops me from the server for the crime of a single misplaced packet. It used to work fine at one point, then they broke it, and don't give enough a shit to fix it.
in fact i want lost temple on too, add like 15+ maps and increase the veto proportionately, allow a free market place of maps for the greatest amount of broodwar, why this artificial and rotating limit? let people play what they want, they will suffer the consequential wait time if their choice is unpopular, afterall
I'm all for your idea if it's doable witout increasing waiting time but I have one concern if they took really old maps: I wasn't around online LT-time but I reckon some of those old maps are really broken by today's standards? Because of things like naturals that are too hard to take for certain races, no accessible 3rds/4ths (with gas), rush-distances or air-distances too small, not enough space to move big armies etc.
Sure those things can be a nice challenge, too, but if you just cannot play the meta (including it's numerous variations/adaptations) that constitutes the current balance on those maps then it wouldn't be a fair challenge, which many would consider a sine qua non for good competition.
They would have to make it so that those broken maps can be 100% vetoed (which afaik is not the case now, you can play on vetoed maps sometimes? at least that's what an opponent told me once). I'm not someone who gives too much about ladder-points but it would really suck to have to play on maps for rank where it's just about fighting imbalances.
Well, I would think that with the increase of the total map pool the necessity of forcing someone to play on a veto'd map would go down, yeah? Still, your right, its very questionable how far back you could go: when they added in nostalgia, i dont think it was a disaster but it did piss a lot of people off especially at 2000+ mmr. Even if there was a limit to how far back we could go [maybe only a few maps past 2005-6 past muster, or literally none ], we could still have a lot more than now!
On November 22 2018 23:08 chuDr3t4 wrote: ok lets actually some of our brainjuices and apply them to this situation.
Thesis #1: For MatchMaker to work, both players have to have at least 1 map unbanned. Otherwise if MatchMaker cannot match close rated players IT STOPS WORKING. For 9 maps in the pool the max number of bans is 4. For 31 map mappool max number of bans is 15. Otherwise MatchMaker does not match players and is a useless piece of shit. Worthless. Broken. It goes beyond "wait time" if your proposed system gets in the way of it actually working. Also imagine opening ladder mappool and seeing 100 maps.
Thesis #2. Maps are a product of their time. There is a reason some maps are avoided as plague and Fighting Spirit is still played on. Kespa maps were created for tournaments with specific reasons, be it helping move the meta forward by combating prevalent racial imbalance AT THE TIME, unfavouring specific prevalent builds AT THE TIME etc. You don't hope to have Sparkle in the ladder map pool, do you? Or how about island WCG maps?
Your suggestion turns ladder into a joke. Have you played ladder at the start of SC:R? If you missed it for whatever reason, it actually had Nostalgia, Python, Arkadia, Outsider, FS and CB. I had a bug that let me to ban more maps than 3 and I banned every shitty dated map other than FS and CB at the time. Do you want ladder rating mean who tank rushes to cliff at Lost Temple better? We need to move forwards, not backwards. Rotate FS and CB out, not get LT and Python back. Ladder is for here and now, game has moved on.
-Why do you say imagine looking at 100 maps as if its some mind boggling thing that you cant get your mind around? ICC had 30~ or so maps at least at one point, though they unfortunately did shrink the pool gradually over the years. Point is, a large map pool is hardly new to broodwar. This is new, the lack of it.
-I highly doubt anyone outside of the most serious minded pros are going to ban a majority let alone 2/3's or more of the maps, especially if you just have standards for maps. Just because i threw out lost temple as an idea hardly means im willing to die on that hill.
-Maps are a product of the time: Err, yes, they are balanced around whatever is known about the game at the time, but on the other hand, blue storm is over ten years old, fighting spirit is closing in on double digits, longinus 2 was from 2007, tau from 2006. We've already had, or have, plenty of maps in this pool which are very old---even taking from that era you would easily end up around iccups old number of 30~ or so maps. Colo2? Andromeda? New empire of the sun? Are these really going to be controversial?
Are you for real? The difference between iccup and 30 map mappools and now is that on iccup you chose the game and matchup. I played 2 seasons of Eye of the Storm ZvP only. I can't see how you can have both ways. The more you are able to customize the ladder experience the less it starts to mean. And again, Custom Games on b.net are still there, iccup is still online, you have more outreach with Discord and other social media to have someone to play novelty maps, why the F you want to taint the ladder is beyond me.
On November 23 2018 02:08 chuDr3t4 wrote: Are you for real? The difference between iccup and 30 map mappools and now is that on iccup you chose the game and matchup.
Well, if your suggesting we allow for race picking, im all for it: outside of that, whats your point? Were forced not to race pick as is, this changes nothing. All were talking about is increasing the map pool.
On November 23 2018 02:08 chuDr3t4 wrote: I played 2 seasons of Eye of the Storm ZvP only.
I'm not as interested in random bits of your biography as you seem to think.
On November 23 2018 02:08 chuDr3t4 wrote: I can't see how you can have both ways. The more you are able to customize the ladder experience the less it starts to mean.
I can put two games into an account and play an s rank player, the ladder is a failing crapshoot as it is. At least adding in more maps has the possibility of bringing players back into the game, and, if you control the map selection for good maps you increase the chances that everyone will be satisfied. If i hate three maps in the pool currently its almost half the fucking pool. Theres only a few maps in bw i dont like and there all currently in the ladder!
On November 23 2018 02:08 chuDr3t4 wrote: And again, Custom Games on b.net are still there, iccup is still online, you have more outreach with Discord and other social media to have someone to play novelty maps, why the F you want to taint the ladder is beyond me.
Custom games are a bitch to set up, and the match maker would work perfectly fine with an increased amount of maps, so...no. Simply zero reason not to add more maps into the pool.
On November 22 2018 08:56 WaterSerpentM wrote: I'm trying to improve people, if there is something wrong with my guide, then prove it to me, its best to talk things out in life before attacking.
I did that exactly, and it doesn't seem like you read half of it. Apparently the response to my point that corsairs are terrible against carriers is 'mass more', which is patently ridiculous as you could pick dragoons or even goddamned scouts instead and perform the job infinitely better without sacrificing the ability to attack ground units. Corsairs and valkyries deal splash for a reason- they're good at killing clumps of weaker air units, which is the exact opposite of what you describe as the 'best units'.
It's actually easy to prove that your guide can't be used against real opponents that played for more than a year actually. For one, you don't split army composition or strategies based on the match-up. Secondly, you talk about simply replacing units as if one is abjectly superior to the other. Lastly, we have the ASL, KSL, and a host of other Starcraft tournaments that star players who studied the game for decades. And they play nothing like the method you prescribe because somewhere in early 2000's your method was tried and tested to be ineffective.
Obviously there's nothing wrong with being a casual and using this strategy to play against your friends. But if you're posting a guide, you should at least have some understanding of the current meta. No one used a scout without the intent of humiliating the opponent since 2007 (Stork vs. Flash), yet it's commonly prescribed in your guide.
I'll link you a channel with a bunch of modern games and you can see for yourself how the 0.01% of the best players' games go. Guides are all over teamliquid, so keep an open mind and explore Starcraft.
As a follow up to that map-pool discussion above (which sadly got turned a little aggressive and personal):
One thing I think they should really fix about the current ladder is the flood of 5-10 game-accounts that is polluting the ranking. You win/lose one game and you go up/down, what is it, a few hundred ranks? Because you jump over a few hundred dead accounts...
If people want to keep the freedom of making multiple accounts or as many accounts as they want, so be it. But why not clear all the sub 10/20/30 game accounts after a few weeks or months of inactivity? Or add a function "only display active accounts".
On November 23 2018 07:41 [AS]Rattus wrote: idk what anybody could have against your second suggestion, but i guess they get cleared with every new season anyway?
They do, but they also reappear as quick as they're gone and the problem persists. xD
Nothing, it's a bad thread that will stay closed. People aren't sending others to get actual advice from it, they are sending them so they can laugh at how bad the advice is. The majority of the BW forum has better advice and strategies. Liquipedia has better strategies. Casters of professional games have better advice and strategies. Day9's old dailies have vastly better strategies.
to be Master at something, you gotta know all the techniques and do them right, when you do, you become Master, and it tells you in your mind that you ARE master, and all the techniques come up in your mind of whatever skill it is.
Art techniques: Straight line, Curve and Spiral
Boxing Techniques: stance, jab straight, left block, right block, left hook, right hook, forward step, back step.
Singing: sing each note right
Starcraft: Brood War: techniques:
Army Power Up Scouting Fortessing Support Poking Rendezvous Drops
EPT
