EPT[R] Racial Balance from Top Players - Page 3
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nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
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BlackDevil
France53 Posts
- Pro-Players get a good idea of race balance - Statistics reflects the actual winning rates of each race Anyone has thought of yet another element? - Change in strategy I mean the discovery of the terran wall-in changed many odds, as did the use of arbiters in PvT. Before the invention of such strategies, EVERYONE contributing to the statistics ignores elements that determine the outcome and therefore the race balance. So even if statistics and opinions say that ZvsP is imba, what if tomorrow there would be a new element changing that matchup? Just give it a thougt... | ||
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gravity
Australia2041 Posts
On May 26 2006 10:31 BlackDevil wrote: What has been said so far: - Pro-Players get a good idea of race balance - Statistics reflects the actual winning rates of each race Anyone has thought of yet another element? - Change in strategy I mean the discovery of the terran wall-in changed many odds, as did the use of arbiters in PvT. Before the invention of such strategies, EVERYONE contributing to the statistics ignores elements that determine the outcome and therefore the race balance. So even if statistics and opinions say that ZvsP is imba, what if tomorrow there would be a new element changing that matchup? Just give it a thougt... That's possible, but the chance of dramatic changes to strategy only decrease over time, and even highly creative players like Ra haven't had any massive breakthroughs in terms of PvZ strategy, at least no more than Z has done vice-versa. | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On May 26 2006 09:14 gokai wrote: Quoted for truth. I was pondering about this and your the first person to say it out loud. Man, imagine if we somehow evolve to have 2000 apm. The progaming scene would be sooooo different. Actually, Starcraft registers movements at a rate of 1/20 per second, so the theoretical APM max is 60*20 = 1200 per minute. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On May 26 2006 09:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. It's harder, more stressful, easier to fuck up if you play P in ZvP, but that's not imbalance, you whiners  Some strange logic you have  What IS imbalance, then, in your opinion? | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On May 26 2006 09:53 Orome wrote: Well obviously you can never generally say that a matchup is imbalanced in Starcraft, as a game's imbalance doesn't depend solely on the races, but also on the map the game is played on. If you make a statement about a matchup as a whole, you always have to include the map (i.e. P>Z on Gorky). Hmm.. somehow I don't see anyone lately complain that Z>P on map so-and-so (with the exception of some clearly imba maps), but rather that lurkers into ultraling are very hard to kill in general. | ||
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SP)diQ
1107 Posts
On May 26 2006 10:34 StRyKeR wrote: Actually, Starcraft registers movements at a rate of 1/20 per second, so the theoretical APM max is 60*20 = 1200 per minute. Register rate doesn`t prevent U from having 10k hotkey apm And about that maelstorm thingy, sorry but by the time progamers would B close enough 2 perfection, all PvZ would B won in 5 min with hardcore 3 gate zeal. | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 26 2006 10:10 mdb wrote:  Hey FA, I thought your hands hurt. How can you write so much :D Hehe :D Well, first of all they are a bit better now (been playing again for a couple of days) and second of all, writing is a lot less, hm, stressful than gaming, like you can take a break and stuff | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 26 2006 10:01 gravity wrote: I'd say the last couple of years are more informative for a few reasons: 1. Some of the very oldest leagues (including 2 P wins) were played under 1.07 2. Boxer's appearance on the scene caused a Terran boom, giving P something to take advantage of (since P is equal to or has a slight edge over T). and most importantly 3. The recent past is a better predictor of the future than the far past. Therefore, the fact that P won a good number of leagues several years ago isn't very reassuring when they're doing badly now. Yeah but what if the zergs had said this during the time BEFORE they started doing well? The recent past then would have indicated that there's no way in hell they'd ever win a league ever again | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 26 2006 10:23 nArAnjO wrote: Well, just to let you know that Julyzerg said in a recent interview that in fact he thinks that ZvP favours zerg. There's no agreements even in the top players and July is clearly better than anyone u can ask here (ie testie, fa, etc) Well, pro-players do say a lot, for instance, Yellow and some other zergs used to complain about how zerg needed a boost vs terran =] But yes, july's word means a loooooooooot, he's way, way beyond anyone on TL.net when it comes to understanding ZvP hehe. I dunno if he thinks it is as extreme as some people here do tho.. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 26 2006 10:39 Random() wrote: It's harder, more stressful, easier to fuck up if you play P in ZvP, but that's not imbalance, you whiners Some strange logic you have What IS imbalance, then, in your opinion?No I didn't say the matchup is harder, I meant it takes a longer time to learn than PvT or ZvP (both are matchups in which you have all the info from obs/overlords). Easier to fuck up, well, ZvT is easier to fuck up than ZvP.. PvZ is easier to fuck up than PvT (although since you have the more effecient units, I guess it's easier to make a come back in PvZ than PvT, hm, not sure), TvZ is probably easier to fuck up than TvP tho (since marines are so fragile). A significant, as in worth worrying about, imbalance to me would be like.. well, PvZ mercury is a bit extreme of an example.. Hm. If PvZ was like starting at 6 o clock on lost temple every game, then that would have to be changed (cause 6 o clock is god damn awful) but I don't think it is. Not saying there's nothing that could be done to bring it closer to perfection, just not sure what | ||
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Mr.Testie
973 Posts
I've written essays. But holy jesus mother of god. People don't have attention spans that long! | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
~8] It all depends on the maps. Simple as that. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
On May 26 2006 10:34 StRyKeR wrote: Actually, Starcraft registers movements at a rate of 1/20 per second, so the theoretical APM max is 60*20 = 1200 per minute. Start a game, select something and immediately press Ctrl+1 and hold it down for a while, then quit. You will have 1900+ APM | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Come on, imbalance in SC? Unheard of -_-;; People are just bitter cuz Tosses got creamed on this season. Even on PL, bo1 PvZs are not one sided either... geez, imbalance arguments are so stupid and hurt my head. Just 2 months ago people were riding Pusan's dick saying WOO MACRO SPIRIT.. and cuz he got wiped (LOL, not a fan -_-) ppl forget the toss enthusiasm just awhile ago. Or Anytime for that matter. Here's my prophecy... Stork will finally realize his full potential and he will be Hero Toss #2. If not, we still have kingdom who is top 4 MSL ~_~ Woo woo! And July saying ZvP favors Z is probably why he is #1 ZvP user in the world -_-;; It's like Boxer saying hey I feel T > Z -_-;; no fuckin duh? | ||
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gokai
United States812 Posts
On May 26 2006 12:59 SuperJongMan wrote: This has got to be one of the shittiest threads in forever. Come on, imbalance in SC? Unheard of -_-;; People are just bitter cuz Tosses got creamed on this season. Even on PL, bo1 PvZs are not one sided either... geez, imbalance arguments are so stupid and hurt my head. Just 2 months ago people were riding Pusan's dick saying WOO MACRO SPIRIT.. and cuz he got wiped (LOL, not a fan -_-) ppl forget the toss enthusiasm just awhile ago. Or Anytime for that matter. Here's my prophecy... Stork will finally realize his full potential and he will be Hero Toss #2. If not, we still have kingdom who is top 4 MSL ~_~ Woo woo! And July saying ZvP favors Z is probably why he is #1 ZvP user in the world -_-;; It's like Boxer saying hey I feel T > Z -_-;; no fuckin duh? As the thread starter, I was offended you called my thread shitty, but just for a second. Thinking about it, you have lots of good points. Most people praise winners almost instinctively. They don't bother to closely watch the games. It's like we turn off our brains when watching TV. Thus they rarely notice how well the player is microing, macroing, and making decisions. If people try to be more aware of this, I swear to god, fanboyism will go down. Or fuck, we give praise to the players who deserve it. I've watched sea's games vs rainbow, ra, and child. Both games he made lots of bad plays. The reason he won is his macro. I basicly see him immitate iloveoov's macro and and constantly attack his opponent. This kid is still young and he has develope a macro near to oov's level but his decision making and defense is not on par. Plus from the three games I saw of him, his only strategy was to macro then constantly attack. He fell to Yellow[name] because yellow uses his mind and has exellent micro and maco to back it all up. I might be wrong on something. Call me on my bullshit if you see it. | ||
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polarwolf
924 Posts
I think all in all, OOV is the most successful player of starcraft ever. He won 2 OSL and 3 MSL, that is outstanding, no other player managed to do that, except of Nada. Maybe this gives a new influence to this thread: Is macro the most important part of starcraft? We all know, that OOV's and Nada's gaming style depends heavily on macro... And your smart players were not as successful as them. | ||
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