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On July 25 2012 05:40 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:49 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Does not bode well for either Starcraft scene. Passion is dead.
I would like to think the formation of ACE legitimized BW as the esport that could transcend even something as strict as military service.
Smartphone Proleague 2014? Stork would D O M I N A T E (hed prob be in the Airfoce by that time anyways so they could remake the team!!) + Show Spoiler +But seriously.. Sad news, but expected news.
Can you imagine what smartphone esports fans would be like though?
"OMG the black bomb birdie thing on angry birds is OP it blew up and the pigz couldn't do anything about it wtf! nerf plz!"
... though Angry Birds has pretty good destructible rocks...
Stork's has phone games skills for sure, but I hear Bisu is pretty good at PvZ. + Show Spoiler +(plants vs zombies har har)
Was trying not to derail it but I couldn't help it... sorry 
Also, if LoL continues to be popular I wonder if they'll have an ACE equivalent for it eventually?
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Noooo D': BW come back....you can blame it allll on meeee!
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United Kingdom1708 Posts
On July 24 2012 22:12 StreetWise wrote:
I always like the concept of ACE, and was really hoping they would have transitioned to SC2. Its sad to see mobile games taking over the 'classic' games like SC2.
LMAO "classic" and "SC2" in the same sentence. That tickles me.
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On July 25 2012 05:19 Spinoza wrote:
We need a respectable RTS product, equal or similar to BW .. anyone know of such a product currently available? No .. Oh Blizzard .. where art thou .. are you listening?
In the age of Kickstarter, it's only a matter of passion stopping people from doing this themselves. Why wait for someone else?
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On July 24 2012 23:22 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 21:10 hifriend wrote:
Always been kind of a pointless team to be honest. Except for the opportunity to allow players to continue playing through their military service instead of it being a death knell for a player's career. A lot of great players with huge fanbases went through the Airforce team, many of them would have just disappeared and along with them their fans if it weren't for that team
I dunno.. Seeing legends show subpar play and lose to b-teamers after going to ace has been pretty brutal at times.
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On July 25 2012 06:32 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 23:22 floor exercise wrote:On July 24 2012 21:10 hifriend wrote:
Always been kind of a pointless team to be honest. Except for the opportunity to allow players to continue playing through their military service instead of it being a death knell for a player's career. A lot of great players with huge fanbases went through the Airforce team, many of them would have just disappeared and along with them their fans if it weren't for that team I dunno.. Seeing legends show subpar play and lose to b-teamers after going to ace has been pretty brutal at times.
Skill aside, you have to understand that for a country to make exceptions to a policy like Korea's military service for gaming/entertainment purposes... that's pretty huge. Don't think K-pop stars get that kind of treatment (correct me if I'm wrong?)
It's a pretty significant thing in the history of gaming, to see it end like that is a huge tragedy indeed.
Don't forget, despite their generally lower level of performance, they've managed to produce memorable games like Bisu vs Yellow and Yellow vs Jaedong among others. Not to mention being an inspiration to professional gamers everywhere for showing that they are still persevering with their gaming careers despite having to serve in the military.
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On July 25 2012 06:42 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 06:32 hifriend wrote:On July 24 2012 23:22 floor exercise wrote:On July 24 2012 21:10 hifriend wrote:
Always been kind of a pointless team to be honest. Except for the opportunity to allow players to continue playing through their military service instead of it being a death knell for a player's career. A lot of great players with huge fanbases went through the Airforce team, many of them would have just disappeared and along with them their fans if it weren't for that team I dunno.. Seeing legends show subpar play and lose to b-teamers after going to ace has been pretty brutal at times. Skill aside, you have to understand that for a country to make exceptions to a policy like Korea's military service for gaming/entertainment purposes... that's pretty huge. Don't think K-pop stars get that kind of treatment (correct me if I'm wrong?) It's a pretty significant thing in the history of gaming, to see it end like that is a huge tragedy indeed. Don't forget, despite their generally lower level of performance, they've managed to produce memorable games like Bisu vs Yellow and Yellow vs Jaedong among others. Not to mention being an inspiration to professional gamers everywhere for showing that they are still persevering with their gaming careers despite having to serve in the military.
Well what are they supposed to do with K-pop Idols? make some Airforce band?^^.
But yeah i get your point 
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On July 25 2012 03:58 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 20:01 .vid wrote:On July 23 2012 17:18 Ribbon wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Koshi wrote:
So this means that SCII players can't play when they are in the army? I am hoping they are making a new team for the new talent. May 16th - oGs disbands July 13th - Zenex ceases to exist as an independent team, will merge with Startale July 23rd - Air Force Ace announces plan to disband The Korean scene is collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 more teams disband in the next few months,. you forgot last year's mbc game, hwaseung oz and wemade collapses (edit: or was it in 2010? i forgot :S) I considered adding them, but that was before the hybrid league was announced. MBCGame, Oz, and WeMade were the collapse of the BW scene (Wemade was technically an SC2 team as well, but had literally 3 players). Switching to SC2 was supposed to fix everything somehow, but oGs, Zenex, and Ace are primarily SC2 teams that are collapsing. The switch did nothing to save Proleague, and will quite possibly kill the GSL as well by flooding the market, and being a really hyped SC2 league full of generally bad SC2 games. I'd say TSL (constantly on the verge of collapse, though they seem to be in better shape now), SlayerS (all kinds of shit going down in that team), and SKT1 (sponsor doesn't care about international audience) are the ones that should be on the watchlist. Woongjin and STX are also sponsors likely to pull out, but I honestly don't know why a chemical company and a shipbuilding company (!) were sponsoring BW in the first place. I doubt many BW fans are in the market for a ship. So maybe those two are just run by people who really like BW, meaning they should possibly be on the watchlist as well? Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 02:35 brolaf wrote:On July 24 2012 16:01 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 15:45 Darksoldierr wrote:On July 24 2012 09:59 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 09:11 sephirotharg wrote:
I hope that professional BW survives (in Korea, that is) You wouldn't be interested in professional BW somewhere else? I know the Chinese scene is really small, and the western scene is pitable, but there's still a chance to grow them into something respectable within a few years, I think. I dont think so, Sc2's release gave BW attention to those who never heard of it before, yet nothings really changed. That's largely the BW's community's fault, though. Absolutely no effort was made to try to convert any of the "Oh hey SC2 is cool" people to BW fans, besides people on forums calling them names. Where was KeSPA's big outreach? The only major BW scene to ever even try to reach westerners was GOM back when Tasteless and I think SuperDanielMan were casting the GOMTV Classic in English. And KeSPA shut that one down pretty fast. Which, actually, was a pretty terrible decision in the long run. If GOM hadn't gotten into SC2, there'd be no SC2 now. I seriously do believe that if GOMTV was in the BW business and not the SC2 business, we'd be in a new Golden Age of Brood War right now. SC2 isn't big because of Blizzard, much as people like to blame them. It's big because GOM sold it to a foreign audience. Even right now, when the whole idea of the switch to SC2 is the international fans, there's still no official English stream for Proleague. That's insane. Even when their in SC2, KeSPA ignores the SC2 scene. They have completely and 100% fucked BW up. They're fucking up in SC2 now as well. Whatever they did for Brood War in the past, the last few years have been nothing but abject incompetence on their part. As time goes on, it will be just even harder to catch new players. Just think about, running BW on W7 already has problems and need to find fixes to make it work. This admittedly is a pretty huge problem. I'd say port forwarding is a bigger deal than killing explorer in task manager. A lot of people (myself included) literally can't do that. Now W8 is coming, another generation growing up on console games and on MMOs. Personally i would love a rise viewer numbers and just overall, player numbers, but i dont think so it will ever happen Certainly not if you keep referring to the only potential source of new BW fans in such a demeaning get off my lawnish way. Cant agree with this. Youre trying to put the cart before the horse. What comes first is a popular game by the designers, and blizzard did good here, SC2 is popular. As a result, a lot of potential viewers could supply a pro scene with earnings, so a big proscene is possible. BW is very unpopular outside korea/china, so there are few viewers and a pro scene isnt possible. http://imgur.com/OGgDLAlso, whatever you think of SC2 as a game now, absolutely no one in the west would have watched GSL Open Season 3 (dubbed by Artosis as "the worst SC2 tournament of all time" because Terrans did a 2-rax all in pulling marines literally every single TvZ) if GOM didn't have Tastosis. And that tournament could've killed SC2. even in korea BW popularity has steadily been declining since the mid 2000s with the mmos&shooters, lol and d3 now. and proleague & MBCgame didnt return a profit so the fundamentals for a golden age of bw, i cant see how those wouldve been possible when the game itself wasnt that popular any more. WHen we have a situation of businesses running at a loss, the answer is to downscale and meet the declined demand in a cost efficient manner. Adding more businesses (gomtv in your hypothesis) to this kinda runs against that concept.
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On July 25 2012 06:53 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:58 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 20:01 .vid wrote:On July 23 2012 17:18 Ribbon wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Koshi wrote:
So this means that SCII players can't play when they are in the army? I am hoping they are making a new team for the new talent. May 16th - oGs disbands July 13th - Zenex ceases to exist as an independent team, will merge with Startale July 23rd - Air Force Ace announces plan to disband The Korean scene is collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 more teams disband in the next few months,. you forgot last year's mbc game, hwaseung oz and wemade collapses (edit: or was it in 2010? i forgot :S) I considered adding them, but that was before the hybrid league was announced. MBCGame, Oz, and WeMade were the collapse of the BW scene (Wemade was technically an SC2 team as well, but had literally 3 players). Switching to SC2 was supposed to fix everything somehow, but oGs, Zenex, and Ace are primarily SC2 teams that are collapsing. The switch did nothing to save Proleague, and will quite possibly kill the GSL as well by flooding the market, and being a really hyped SC2 league full of generally bad SC2 games. I'd say TSL (constantly on the verge of collapse, though they seem to be in better shape now), SlayerS (all kinds of shit going down in that team), and SKT1 (sponsor doesn't care about international audience) are the ones that should be on the watchlist. Woongjin and STX are also sponsors likely to pull out, but I honestly don't know why a chemical company and a shipbuilding company (!) were sponsoring BW in the first place. I doubt many BW fans are in the market for a ship. So maybe those two are just run by people who really like BW, meaning they should possibly be on the watchlist as well? On July 25 2012 02:35 brolaf wrote:On July 24 2012 16:01 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 15:45 Darksoldierr wrote:On July 24 2012 09:59 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 09:11 sephirotharg wrote:
I hope that professional BW survives (in Korea, that is) You wouldn't be interested in professional BW somewhere else? I know the Chinese scene is really small, and the western scene is pitable, but there's still a chance to grow them into something respectable within a few years, I think. I dont think so, Sc2's release gave BW attention to those who never heard of it before, yet nothings really changed. That's largely the BW's community's fault, though. Absolutely no effort was made to try to convert any of the "Oh hey SC2 is cool" people to BW fans, besides people on forums calling them names. Where was KeSPA's big outreach? The only major BW scene to ever even try to reach westerners was GOM back when Tasteless and I think SuperDanielMan were casting the GOMTV Classic in English. And KeSPA shut that one down pretty fast. Which, actually, was a pretty terrible decision in the long run. If GOM hadn't gotten into SC2, there'd be no SC2 now. I seriously do believe that if GOMTV was in the BW business and not the SC2 business, we'd be in a new Golden Age of Brood War right now. SC2 isn't big because of Blizzard, much as people like to blame them. It's big because GOM sold it to a foreign audience. Even right now, when the whole idea of the switch to SC2 is the international fans, there's still no official English stream for Proleague. That's insane. Even when their in SC2, KeSPA ignores the SC2 scene. They have completely and 100% fucked BW up. They're fucking up in SC2 now as well. Whatever they did for Brood War in the past, the last few years have been nothing but abject incompetence on their part. As time goes on, it will be just even harder to catch new players. Just think about, running BW on W7 already has problems and need to find fixes to make it work. This admittedly is a pretty huge problem. I'd say port forwarding is a bigger deal than killing explorer in task manager. A lot of people (myself included) literally can't do that. Now W8 is coming, another generation growing up on console games and on MMOs. Personally i would love a rise viewer numbers and just overall, player numbers, but i dont think so it will ever happen Certainly not if you keep referring to the only potential source of new BW fans in such a demeaning get off my lawnish way. Cant agree with this. Youre trying to put the cart before the horse. What comes first is a popular game by the designers, and blizzard did good here, SC2 is popular. As a result, a lot of potential viewers could supply a pro scene with earnings, so a big proscene is possible. BW is very unpopular outside korea/china, so there are few viewers and a pro scene isnt possible. http://imgur.com/OGgDLAlso, whatever you think of SC2 as a game now, absolutely no one in the west would have watched GSL Open Season 3 (dubbed by Artosis as "the worst SC2 tournament of all time" because Terrans did a 2-rax all in pulling marines literally every single TvZ) if GOM didn't have Tastosis. And that tournament could've killed SC2. even in korea BW popularity has steadily been declining since the mid 2000s with the mmos&shooters, lol and d3 now. and proleague & MBCgame didnt return a profit so the fundamentals for a golden age of bw, i cant see how those wouldve been possible when the game itself wasnt that popular any more. WHen we have a situation of businesses running at a loss, the answer is to downscale and meet the declined demand in a cost efficient manner. Adding more businesses (gomtv in your hypothesis) to this kinda runs against that concept.
GOM created an entire market for SC2. It wouldn't have taken off without them (Blizzard never really cared about "e-sports" for the first year or so of SC2's release beyond lip service). They could've been creating a foreign scene for BW instead of a foreign scene for SC2. Yeah, they probably wouldn't have been able to get it as big as the one they made for SC2, but they would've brought in enough new foreign fans to keep at least themselves in business, I think.
Also, someone who knows more about this than me: In retrospect, was it a good idea for KeSPA to fight the Blizzard lawsuits, or would the "we care about and respect the IP rights" vibe have been worth going along to get along?
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On July 25 2012 07:47 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 06:53 brolaf wrote:On July 25 2012 03:58 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 20:01 .vid wrote:On July 23 2012 17:18 Ribbon wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Koshi wrote:
So this means that SCII players can't play when they are in the army? I am hoping they are making a new team for the new talent. May 16th - oGs disbands July 13th - Zenex ceases to exist as an independent team, will merge with Startale July 23rd - Air Force Ace announces plan to disband The Korean scene is collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 more teams disband in the next few months,. you forgot last year's mbc game, hwaseung oz and wemade collapses (edit: or was it in 2010? i forgot :S) I considered adding them, but that was before the hybrid league was announced. MBCGame, Oz, and WeMade were the collapse of the BW scene (Wemade was technically an SC2 team as well, but had literally 3 players). Switching to SC2 was supposed to fix everything somehow, but oGs, Zenex, and Ace are primarily SC2 teams that are collapsing. The switch did nothing to save Proleague, and will quite possibly kill the GSL as well by flooding the market, and being a really hyped SC2 league full of generally bad SC2 games. I'd say TSL (constantly on the verge of collapse, though they seem to be in better shape now), SlayerS (all kinds of shit going down in that team), and SKT1 (sponsor doesn't care about international audience) are the ones that should be on the watchlist. Woongjin and STX are also sponsors likely to pull out, but I honestly don't know why a chemical company and a shipbuilding company (!) were sponsoring BW in the first place. I doubt many BW fans are in the market for a ship. So maybe those two are just run by people who really like BW, meaning they should possibly be on the watchlist as well? On July 25 2012 02:35 brolaf wrote:On July 24 2012 16:01 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 15:45 Darksoldierr wrote:On July 24 2012 09:59 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 09:11 sephirotharg wrote:
I hope that professional BW survives (in Korea, that is) You wouldn't be interested in professional BW somewhere else? I know the Chinese scene is really small, and the western scene is pitable, but there's still a chance to grow them into something respectable within a few years, I think. I dont think so, Sc2's release gave BW attention to those who never heard of it before, yet nothings really changed. That's largely the BW's community's fault, though. Absolutely no effort was made to try to convert any of the "Oh hey SC2 is cool" people to BW fans, besides people on forums calling them names. Where was KeSPA's big outreach? The only major BW scene to ever even try to reach westerners was GOM back when Tasteless and I think SuperDanielMan were casting the GOMTV Classic in English. And KeSPA shut that one down pretty fast. Which, actually, was a pretty terrible decision in the long run. If GOM hadn't gotten into SC2, there'd be no SC2 now. I seriously do believe that if GOMTV was in the BW business and not the SC2 business, we'd be in a new Golden Age of Brood War right now. SC2 isn't big because of Blizzard, much as people like to blame them. It's big because GOM sold it to a foreign audience. Even right now, when the whole idea of the switch to SC2 is the international fans, there's still no official English stream for Proleague. That's insane. Even when their in SC2, KeSPA ignores the SC2 scene. They have completely and 100% fucked BW up. They're fucking up in SC2 now as well. Whatever they did for Brood War in the past, the last few years have been nothing but abject incompetence on their part. As time goes on, it will be just even harder to catch new players. Just think about, running BW on W7 already has problems and need to find fixes to make it work. This admittedly is a pretty huge problem. I'd say port forwarding is a bigger deal than killing explorer in task manager. A lot of people (myself included) literally can't do that. Now W8 is coming, another generation growing up on console games and on MMOs. Personally i would love a rise viewer numbers and just overall, player numbers, but i dont think so it will ever happen Certainly not if you keep referring to the only potential source of new BW fans in such a demeaning get off my lawnish way. Cant agree with this. Youre trying to put the cart before the horse. What comes first is a popular game by the designers, and blizzard did good here, SC2 is popular. As a result, a lot of potential viewers could supply a pro scene with earnings, so a big proscene is possible. BW is very unpopular outside korea/china, so there are few viewers and a pro scene isnt possible. http://imgur.com/OGgDLAlso, whatever you think of SC2 as a game now, absolutely no one in the west would have watched GSL Open Season 3 (dubbed by Artosis as "the worst SC2 tournament of all time" because Terrans did a 2-rax all in pulling marines literally every single TvZ) if GOM didn't have Tastosis. And that tournament could've killed SC2. even in korea BW popularity has steadily been declining since the mid 2000s with the mmos&shooters, lol and d3 now. and proleague & MBCgame didnt return a profit so the fundamentals for a golden age of bw, i cant see how those wouldve been possible when the game itself wasnt that popular any more. WHen we have a situation of businesses running at a loss, the answer is to downscale and meet the declined demand in a cost efficient manner. Adding more businesses (gomtv in your hypothesis) to this kinda runs against that concept. GOM created an entire market for SC2. It wouldn't have taken off without them (Blizzard never really cared about "e-sports" for the first year or so of SC2's release beyond lip service). They could've been creating a foreign scene for BW instead of a foreign scene for SC2. Yeah, they probably wouldn't have been able to get it as big as the one they made for SC2, but they would've brought in enough new foreign fans to keep at least themselves in business, I think. Also, someone who knows more about this than me: In retrospect, was it a good idea for KeSPA to fight the Blizzard lawsuits, or would the "we care about and respect the IP rights" vibe have been worth going along to get along?
IMO the best scenerio would be for the lawsuit to be continued so that NO other companies can treat an 'sport' industry like a marketable product. It would be entirely depended on the passion of the game. I really wonder if Korean law would allow the defendant to have a continuum on cases.
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On July 25 2012 08:15 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 07:47 Ribbon wrote:On July 25 2012 06:53 brolaf wrote:On July 25 2012 03:58 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 20:01 .vid wrote:On July 23 2012 17:18 Ribbon wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Koshi wrote:
So this means that SCII players can't play when they are in the army? I am hoping they are making a new team for the new talent. May 16th - oGs disbands July 13th - Zenex ceases to exist as an independent team, will merge with Startale July 23rd - Air Force Ace announces plan to disband The Korean scene is collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 more teams disband in the next few months,. you forgot last year's mbc game, hwaseung oz and wemade collapses (edit: or was it in 2010? i forgot :S) I considered adding them, but that was before the hybrid league was announced. MBCGame, Oz, and WeMade were the collapse of the BW scene (Wemade was technically an SC2 team as well, but had literally 3 players). Switching to SC2 was supposed to fix everything somehow, but oGs, Zenex, and Ace are primarily SC2 teams that are collapsing. The switch did nothing to save Proleague, and will quite possibly kill the GSL as well by flooding the market, and being a really hyped SC2 league full of generally bad SC2 games. I'd say TSL (constantly on the verge of collapse, though they seem to be in better shape now), SlayerS (all kinds of shit going down in that team), and SKT1 (sponsor doesn't care about international audience) are the ones that should be on the watchlist. Woongjin and STX are also sponsors likely to pull out, but I honestly don't know why a chemical company and a shipbuilding company (!) were sponsoring BW in the first place. I doubt many BW fans are in the market for a ship. So maybe those two are just run by people who really like BW, meaning they should possibly be on the watchlist as well? On July 25 2012 02:35 brolaf wrote:On July 24 2012 16:01 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 15:45 Darksoldierr wrote:On July 24 2012 09:59 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 09:11 sephirotharg wrote:
I hope that professional BW survives (in Korea, that is) You wouldn't be interested in professional BW somewhere else? I know the Chinese scene is really small, and the western scene is pitable, but there's still a chance to grow them into something respectable within a few years, I think. I dont think so, Sc2's release gave BW attention to those who never heard of it before, yet nothings really changed. That's largely the BW's community's fault, though. Absolutely no effort was made to try to convert any of the "Oh hey SC2 is cool" people to BW fans, besides people on forums calling them names. Where was KeSPA's big outreach? The only major BW scene to ever even try to reach westerners was GOM back when Tasteless and I think SuperDanielMan were casting the GOMTV Classic in English. And KeSPA shut that one down pretty fast. Which, actually, was a pretty terrible decision in the long run. If GOM hadn't gotten into SC2, there'd be no SC2 now. I seriously do believe that if GOMTV was in the BW business and not the SC2 business, we'd be in a new Golden Age of Brood War right now. SC2 isn't big because of Blizzard, much as people like to blame them. It's big because GOM sold it to a foreign audience. Even right now, when the whole idea of the switch to SC2 is the international fans, there's still no official English stream for Proleague. That's insane. Even when their in SC2, KeSPA ignores the SC2 scene. They have completely and 100% fucked BW up. They're fucking up in SC2 now as well. Whatever they did for Brood War in the past, the last few years have been nothing but abject incompetence on their part. As time goes on, it will be just even harder to catch new players. Just think about, running BW on W7 already has problems and need to find fixes to make it work. This admittedly is a pretty huge problem. I'd say port forwarding is a bigger deal than killing explorer in task manager. A lot of people (myself included) literally can't do that. Now W8 is coming, another generation growing up on console games and on MMOs. Personally i would love a rise viewer numbers and just overall, player numbers, but i dont think so it will ever happen Certainly not if you keep referring to the only potential source of new BW fans in such a demeaning get off my lawnish way. Cant agree with this. Youre trying to put the cart before the horse. What comes first is a popular game by the designers, and blizzard did good here, SC2 is popular. As a result, a lot of potential viewers could supply a pro scene with earnings, so a big proscene is possible. BW is very unpopular outside korea/china, so there are few viewers and a pro scene isnt possible. http://imgur.com/OGgDLAlso, whatever you think of SC2 as a game now, absolutely no one in the west would have watched GSL Open Season 3 (dubbed by Artosis as "the worst SC2 tournament of all time" because Terrans did a 2-rax all in pulling marines literally every single TvZ) if GOM didn't have Tastosis. And that tournament could've killed SC2. even in korea BW popularity has steadily been declining since the mid 2000s with the mmos&shooters, lol and d3 now. and proleague & MBCgame didnt return a profit so the fundamentals for a golden age of bw, i cant see how those wouldve been possible when the game itself wasnt that popular any more. WHen we have a situation of businesses running at a loss, the answer is to downscale and meet the declined demand in a cost efficient manner. Adding more businesses (gomtv in your hypothesis) to this kinda runs against that concept. GOM created an entire market for SC2. It wouldn't have taken off without them (Blizzard never really cared about "e-sports" for the first year or so of SC2's release beyond lip service). They could've been creating a foreign scene for BW instead of a foreign scene for SC2. Yeah, they probably wouldn't have been able to get it as big as the one they made for SC2, but they would've brought in enough new foreign fans to keep at least themselves in business, I think. Also, someone who knows more about this than me: In retrospect, was it a good idea for KeSPA to fight the Blizzard lawsuits, or would the "we care about and respect the IP rights" vibe have been worth going along to get along? IMO the best scenerio would be for the lawsuit to be continued so that NO other companies can treat an 'sport' industry like a marketable product. It would be entirely depended on the passion of the game.
Then there would be no sports industries at all?
I realize that the marketing aspect is maybe distateful, but players need to eat.
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On July 25 2012 10:00 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 08:15 Xiphos wrote:On July 25 2012 07:47 Ribbon wrote:On July 25 2012 06:53 brolaf wrote:On July 25 2012 03:58 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 20:01 .vid wrote:On July 23 2012 17:18 Ribbon wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Koshi wrote:
So this means that SCII players can't play when they are in the army? I am hoping they are making a new team for the new talent. May 16th - oGs disbands July 13th - Zenex ceases to exist as an independent team, will merge with Startale July 23rd - Air Force Ace announces plan to disband The Korean scene is collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 more teams disband in the next few months,. you forgot last year's mbc game, hwaseung oz and wemade collapses (edit: or was it in 2010? i forgot :S) I considered adding them, but that was before the hybrid league was announced. MBCGame, Oz, and WeMade were the collapse of the BW scene (Wemade was technically an SC2 team as well, but had literally 3 players). Switching to SC2 was supposed to fix everything somehow, but oGs, Zenex, and Ace are primarily SC2 teams that are collapsing. The switch did nothing to save Proleague, and will quite possibly kill the GSL as well by flooding the market, and being a really hyped SC2 league full of generally bad SC2 games. I'd say TSL (constantly on the verge of collapse, though they seem to be in better shape now), SlayerS (all kinds of shit going down in that team), and SKT1 (sponsor doesn't care about international audience) are the ones that should be on the watchlist. Woongjin and STX are also sponsors likely to pull out, but I honestly don't know why a chemical company and a shipbuilding company (!) were sponsoring BW in the first place. I doubt many BW fans are in the market for a ship. So maybe those two are just run by people who really like BW, meaning they should possibly be on the watchlist as well? On July 25 2012 02:35 brolaf wrote:On July 24 2012 16:01 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 15:45 Darksoldierr wrote:On July 24 2012 09:59 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 09:11 sephirotharg wrote:
I hope that professional BW survives (in Korea, that is) You wouldn't be interested in professional BW somewhere else? I know the Chinese scene is really small, and the western scene is pitable, but there's still a chance to grow them into something respectable within a few years, I think. I dont think so, Sc2's release gave BW attention to those who never heard of it before, yet nothings really changed. That's largely the BW's community's fault, though. Absolutely no effort was made to try to convert any of the "Oh hey SC2 is cool" people to BW fans, besides people on forums calling them names. Where was KeSPA's big outreach? The only major BW scene to ever even try to reach westerners was GOM back when Tasteless and I think SuperDanielMan were casting the GOMTV Classic in English. And KeSPA shut that one down pretty fast. Which, actually, was a pretty terrible decision in the long run. If GOM hadn't gotten into SC2, there'd be no SC2 now. I seriously do believe that if GOMTV was in the BW business and not the SC2 business, we'd be in a new Golden Age of Brood War right now. SC2 isn't big because of Blizzard, much as people like to blame them. It's big because GOM sold it to a foreign audience. Even right now, when the whole idea of the switch to SC2 is the international fans, there's still no official English stream for Proleague. That's insane. Even when their in SC2, KeSPA ignores the SC2 scene. They have completely and 100% fucked BW up. They're fucking up in SC2 now as well. Whatever they did for Brood War in the past, the last few years have been nothing but abject incompetence on their part. As time goes on, it will be just even harder to catch new players. Just think about, running BW on W7 already has problems and need to find fixes to make it work. This admittedly is a pretty huge problem. I'd say port forwarding is a bigger deal than killing explorer in task manager. A lot of people (myself included) literally can't do that. Now W8 is coming, another generation growing up on console games and on MMOs. Personally i would love a rise viewer numbers and just overall, player numbers, but i dont think so it will ever happen Certainly not if you keep referring to the only potential source of new BW fans in such a demeaning get off my lawnish way. Cant agree with this. Youre trying to put the cart before the horse. What comes first is a popular game by the designers, and blizzard did good here, SC2 is popular. As a result, a lot of potential viewers could supply a pro scene with earnings, so a big proscene is possible. BW is very unpopular outside korea/china, so there are few viewers and a pro scene isnt possible. http://imgur.com/OGgDLAlso, whatever you think of SC2 as a game now, absolutely no one in the west would have watched GSL Open Season 3 (dubbed by Artosis as "the worst SC2 tournament of all time" because Terrans did a 2-rax all in pulling marines literally every single TvZ) if GOM didn't have Tastosis. And that tournament could've killed SC2. even in korea BW popularity has steadily been declining since the mid 2000s with the mmos&shooters, lol and d3 now. and proleague & MBCgame didnt return a profit so the fundamentals for a golden age of bw, i cant see how those wouldve been possible when the game itself wasnt that popular any more. WHen we have a situation of businesses running at a loss, the answer is to downscale and meet the declined demand in a cost efficient manner. Adding more businesses (gomtv in your hypothesis) to this kinda runs against that concept. GOM created an entire market for SC2. It wouldn't have taken off without them (Blizzard never really cared about "e-sports" for the first year or so of SC2's release beyond lip service). They could've been creating a foreign scene for BW instead of a foreign scene for SC2. Yeah, they probably wouldn't have been able to get it as big as the one they made for SC2, but they would've brought in enough new foreign fans to keep at least themselves in business, I think. Also, someone who knows more about this than me: In retrospect, was it a good idea for KeSPA to fight the Blizzard lawsuits, or would the "we care about and respect the IP rights" vibe have been worth going along to get along? IMO the best scenerio would be for the lawsuit to be continued so that NO other companies can treat an 'sport' industry like a marketable product. It would be entirely depended on the passion of the game. Then there would be no sports industries at all?
I realize that the marketing aspect is maybe distateful, but players need to eat.
Do enlighten me.
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On July 25 2012 10:18 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 10:00 Ribbon wrote:On July 25 2012 08:15 Xiphos wrote:On July 25 2012 07:47 Ribbon wrote:On July 25 2012 06:53 brolaf wrote:On July 25 2012 03:58 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 20:01 .vid wrote:On July 23 2012 17:18 Ribbon wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Koshi wrote:
So this means that SCII players can't play when they are in the army? I am hoping they are making a new team for the new talent. May 16th - oGs disbands July 13th - Zenex ceases to exist as an independent team, will merge with Startale July 23rd - Air Force Ace announces plan to disband The Korean scene is collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 more teams disband in the next few months,. you forgot last year's mbc game, hwaseung oz and wemade collapses (edit: or was it in 2010? i forgot :S) I considered adding them, but that was before the hybrid league was announced. MBCGame, Oz, and WeMade were the collapse of the BW scene (Wemade was technically an SC2 team as well, but had literally 3 players). Switching to SC2 was supposed to fix everything somehow, but oGs, Zenex, and Ace are primarily SC2 teams that are collapsing. The switch did nothing to save Proleague, and will quite possibly kill the GSL as well by flooding the market, and being a really hyped SC2 league full of generally bad SC2 games. I'd say TSL (constantly on the verge of collapse, though they seem to be in better shape now), SlayerS (all kinds of shit going down in that team), and SKT1 (sponsor doesn't care about international audience) are the ones that should be on the watchlist. Woongjin and STX are also sponsors likely to pull out, but I honestly don't know why a chemical company and a shipbuilding company (!) were sponsoring BW in the first place. I doubt many BW fans are in the market for a ship. So maybe those two are just run by people who really like BW, meaning they should possibly be on the watchlist as well? On July 25 2012 02:35 brolaf wrote:On July 24 2012 16:01 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 15:45 Darksoldierr wrote:On July 24 2012 09:59 Ribbon wrote:
[quote]
You wouldn't be interested in professional BW somewhere else? I know the Chinese scene is really small, and the western scene is pitable, but there's still a chance to grow them into something respectable within a few years, I think. I dont think so, Sc2's release gave BW attention to those who never heard of it before, yet nothings really changed. That's largely the BW's community's fault, though. Absolutely no effort was made to try to convert any of the "Oh hey SC2 is cool" people to BW fans, besides people on forums calling them names. Where was KeSPA's big outreach? The only major BW scene to ever even try to reach westerners was GOM back when Tasteless and I think SuperDanielMan were casting the GOMTV Classic in English. And KeSPA shut that one down pretty fast. Which, actually, was a pretty terrible decision in the long run. If GOM hadn't gotten into SC2, there'd be no SC2 now. I seriously do believe that if GOMTV was in the BW business and not the SC2 business, we'd be in a new Golden Age of Brood War right now. SC2 isn't big because of Blizzard, much as people like to blame them. It's big because GOM sold it to a foreign audience. Even right now, when the whole idea of the switch to SC2 is the international fans, there's still no official English stream for Proleague. That's insane. Even when their in SC2, KeSPA ignores the SC2 scene. They have completely and 100% fucked BW up. They're fucking up in SC2 now as well. Whatever they did for Brood War in the past, the last few years have been nothing but abject incompetence on their part. As time goes on, it will be just even harder to catch new players. Just think about, running BW on W7 already has problems and need to find fixes to make it work. This admittedly is a pretty huge problem. I'd say port forwarding is a bigger deal than killing explorer in task manager. A lot of people (myself included) literally can't do that. Now W8 is coming, another generation growing up on console games and on MMOs. Personally i would love a rise viewer numbers and just overall, player numbers, but i dont think so it will ever happen Certainly not if you keep referring to the only potential source of new BW fans in such a demeaning get off my lawnish way. Cant agree with this. Youre trying to put the cart before the horse. What comes first is a popular game by the designers, and blizzard did good here, SC2 is popular. As a result, a lot of potential viewers could supply a pro scene with earnings, so a big proscene is possible. BW is very unpopular outside korea/china, so there are few viewers and a pro scene isnt possible. http://imgur.com/OGgDLAlso, whatever you think of SC2 as a game now, absolutely no one in the west would have watched GSL Open Season 3 (dubbed by Artosis as "the worst SC2 tournament of all time" because Terrans did a 2-rax all in pulling marines literally every single TvZ) if GOM didn't have Tastosis. And that tournament could've killed SC2. even in korea BW popularity has steadily been declining since the mid 2000s with the mmos&shooters, lol and d3 now. and proleague & MBCgame didnt return a profit so the fundamentals for a golden age of bw, i cant see how those wouldve been possible when the game itself wasnt that popular any more. WHen we have a situation of businesses running at a loss, the answer is to downscale and meet the declined demand in a cost efficient manner. Adding more businesses (gomtv in your hypothesis) to this kinda runs against that concept. GOM created an entire market for SC2. It wouldn't have taken off without them (Blizzard never really cared about "e-sports" for the first year or so of SC2's release beyond lip service). They could've been creating a foreign scene for BW instead of a foreign scene for SC2. Yeah, they probably wouldn't have been able to get it as big as the one they made for SC2, but they would've brought in enough new foreign fans to keep at least themselves in business, I think. Also, someone who knows more about this than me: In retrospect, was it a good idea for KeSPA to fight the Blizzard lawsuits, or would the "we care about and respect the IP rights" vibe have been worth going along to get along? IMO the best scenerio would be for the lawsuit to be continued so that NO other companies can treat an 'sport' industry like a marketable product. It would be entirely depended on the passion of the game. Then there would be no sports industries at all?
I realize that the marketing aspect is maybe distateful, but players need to eat. Do enlighten me.
Because....if they didn't treat the sport as marketable, no one would make money off it? Meaning that you couldn't do it full time?
Give me an example of a sport industry that wasn't treated as a marketable profit. Even BW was basically an ad campaign for the sponsor companies (and there's nothing wrong with that).
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You know, reading the explanation makes me feel really special about BW since it seems like BW will never happen again. Perhaps the last 15 years of Broodwar is a unique event in human history and we should be happy we were apart of it.
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Wow thanks for the quote by JunkkaGom.. I really do see and agree with how esports is dying simply due to the rise in technology and accessibility when at first, back when it was young, it was the best thing for it. It was an amazing team which brought out amazing games such as Boxer vs Hiya
It will be missed but I hope they play some SC2 and make the most out of their time their!!
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This is sad news.
You know, many years ago, I wished upon Blizz to "update" SC/BW & bnet with modern networking capabilities, modern gaming concepts and updated graphics that did not alter the way the game was played (ie, unit & building positioning & effects on environment), as in, change nothing that made the game what it was, why it was so good. Don't do away with old Bnet, don't do away with chat channels, don't do away with all that - like it or not, that style of interaction was part of what made the experience successful. Update it. Figure out some way to allow both methods or types of bnet.
It's my belief that these actions would have created a sustainable market for gamers to see the game as something more than a game for a generation or two, and something they can achieve and look up to. To say, as a young boy, "I like the Boston Red Sox, the Bruins, the Patriots and KHAN. I can't play hockey, football or baseball, but I can play StarCraft, and I want to be just like Stork." It takes 15 years of solid support to get those words to come out of a kids mouth, it takes a generation. I wish that could have happened. I wish someone out there were smart enough, dedicated enough to rebuild the game in a way we can play it right, outside of Blizzard's cursed touch.
That ship has sailed now. The marketing effort that would be involved to get anyone on it would fairly immense. And all it does is make me depressed. GG, ACE. Well played, thank you for providing us with good and memories. No lawsuits, no corporate margins, no language barriers and no foolish decisions can take those away.
Everything moves so fast now. We don't have a generation anymore. I bet all this has been said many times.
It makes me so tired.
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Fuck is sure sad.
On July 23 2012 10:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:Where will they go? 
Back to the barracks!
I salute!
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On July 25 2012 07:47 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 06:53 brolaf wrote:On July 25 2012 03:58 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 20:01 .vid wrote:On July 23 2012 17:18 Ribbon wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Koshi wrote:
So this means that SCII players can't play when they are in the army? I am hoping they are making a new team for the new talent. May 16th - oGs disbands July 13th - Zenex ceases to exist as an independent team, will merge with Startale July 23rd - Air Force Ace announces plan to disband The Korean scene is collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 more teams disband in the next few months,. you forgot last year's mbc game, hwaseung oz and wemade collapses (edit: or was it in 2010? i forgot :S) I considered adding them, but that was before the hybrid league was announced. MBCGame, Oz, and WeMade were the collapse of the BW scene (Wemade was technically an SC2 team as well, but had literally 3 players). Switching to SC2 was supposed to fix everything somehow, but oGs, Zenex, and Ace are primarily SC2 teams that are collapsing. The switch did nothing to save Proleague, and will quite possibly kill the GSL as well by flooding the market, and being a really hyped SC2 league full of generally bad SC2 games. I'd say TSL (constantly on the verge of collapse, though they seem to be in better shape now), SlayerS (all kinds of shit going down in that team), and SKT1 (sponsor doesn't care about international audience) are the ones that should be on the watchlist. Woongjin and STX are also sponsors likely to pull out, but I honestly don't know why a chemical company and a shipbuilding company (!) were sponsoring BW in the first place. I doubt many BW fans are in the market for a ship. So maybe those two are just run by people who really like BW, meaning they should possibly be on the watchlist as well? On July 25 2012 02:35 brolaf wrote:On July 24 2012 16:01 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 15:45 Darksoldierr wrote:On July 24 2012 09:59 Ribbon wrote:On July 24 2012 09:11 sephirotharg wrote:
I hope that professional BW survives (in Korea, that is) You wouldn't be interested in professional BW somewhere else? I know the Chinese scene is really small, and the western scene is pitable, but there's still a chance to grow them into something respectable within a few years, I think. I dont think so, Sc2's release gave BW attention to those who never heard of it before, yet nothings really changed. That's largely the BW's community's fault, though. Absolutely no effort was made to try to convert any of the "Oh hey SC2 is cool" people to BW fans, besides people on forums calling them names. Where was KeSPA's big outreach? The only major BW scene to ever even try to reach westerners was GOM back when Tasteless and I think SuperDanielMan were casting the GOMTV Classic in English. And KeSPA shut that one down pretty fast. Which, actually, was a pretty terrible decision in the long run. If GOM hadn't gotten into SC2, there'd be no SC2 now. I seriously do believe that if GOMTV was in the BW business and not the SC2 business, we'd be in a new Golden Age of Brood War right now. SC2 isn't big because of Blizzard, much as people like to blame them. It's big because GOM sold it to a foreign audience. Even right now, when the whole idea of the switch to SC2 is the international fans, there's still no official English stream for Proleague. That's insane. Even when their in SC2, KeSPA ignores the SC2 scene. They have completely and 100% fucked BW up. They're fucking up in SC2 now as well. Whatever they did for Brood War in the past, the last few years have been nothing but abject incompetence on their part. As time goes on, it will be just even harder to catch new players. Just think about, running BW on W7 already has problems and need to find fixes to make it work. This admittedly is a pretty huge problem. I'd say port forwarding is a bigger deal than killing explorer in task manager. A lot of people (myself included) literally can't do that. Now W8 is coming, another generation growing up on console games and on MMOs. Personally i would love a rise viewer numbers and just overall, player numbers, but i dont think so it will ever happen Certainly not if you keep referring to the only potential source of new BW fans in such a demeaning get off my lawnish way. Cant agree with this. Youre trying to put the cart before the horse. What comes first is a popular game by the designers, and blizzard did good here, SC2 is popular. As a result, a lot of potential viewers could supply a pro scene with earnings, so a big proscene is possible. BW is very unpopular outside korea/china, so there are few viewers and a pro scene isnt possible. http://imgur.com/OGgDLAlso, whatever you think of SC2 as a game now, absolutely no one in the west would have watched GSL Open Season 3 (dubbed by Artosis as "the worst SC2 tournament of all time" because Terrans did a 2-rax all in pulling marines literally every single TvZ) if GOM didn't have Tastosis. And that tournament could've killed SC2. even in korea BW popularity has steadily been declining since the mid 2000s with the mmos&shooters, lol and d3 now. and proleague & MBCgame didnt return a profit so the fundamentals for a golden age of bw, i cant see how those wouldve been possible when the game itself wasnt that popular any more. WHen we have a situation of businesses running at a loss, the answer is to downscale and meet the declined demand in a cost efficient manner. Adding more businesses (gomtv in your hypothesis) to this kinda runs against that concept. GOM created an entire market for SC2. It wouldn't have taken off without them (Blizzard never really cared about "e-sports" for the first year or so of SC2's release beyond lip service). They could've been creating a foreign scene for BW instead of a foreign scene for SC2. Yeah, they probably wouldn't have been able to get it as big as the one they made for SC2, but they would've brought in enough new foreign fans to keep at least themselves in business, I think. Also, someone who knows more about this than me: In retrospect, was it a good idea for KeSPA to fight the Blizzard lawsuits, or would the "we care about and respect the IP rights" vibe have been worth going along to get along?
The market already existed, it was the millions of SC2 players that purchased their game and were fans of it. BW had nowhere near the amount of people playing so there is no market to supply in the frist place. The sizes of the potential revenue are nowhere near to be compared as reasonable market alternatives.
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EPT
