Neo Ground Zero 2.0 Changes - Mineral formation at natural changed - Cliff behind natural removed - Third base gas removed
Neo Jade 2.0 Changes - Mineral formation at natural changed - Third base now has 1500 gas (down from 5000)
New Sniper Ridge 2.0 Changes - Mineral formation at natural changed - Chokes at the third gas widened - 5 and 11's ridges altered to compensate for the above change
Neo Electric Circuit remains unchanged. Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley, Ohana and Cloud Kingdom remain unchanged from their ladder editions (which means no lowered supply ramp blocks, no forced cross spawns and gold bases on Antiga).KeSPA has just announced they will use the World Championship Series editions of Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley, Ohana LE and Cloud Kingdom LE.
Final Map Pool Starcraft Neo Ground Zero Neo Jade Neo Electric Circuit 2.1 New Sniper Ridge
Starcraft 2 WCS Cloud Kingdom LE WCS Ohana LE WCS Entombed Valley WCS Antiga Shipyard
Sad that they updated the map pool with changes but couldn't bare changing Antiga Shipyard away from ladder edtion that is imbalanced and really outdated for modern sc2 play.
Interesting. Maybe the changed mineral layout will make nat more susceptible to mutas? And no more obnoxious tank trops on the cliff is only a good thing. It was such a terran map xD The TLPD pic is not updated, so comparing the sizes mains look the same to me... maybe I'm missing sth.
And I still fail to see how lurker contain on Sniper Ridge is not a good idea, wider choke or not.
Pretty huge changes to Ground Zero. Interested to see how that plays out. I'm not sure why they lowered the gas values on Jade though. That map already has relatively few resources as it is...
On May 14 2012 20:36 Sayle wrote: Naturals much easier to muta harass. Meh.
Pretty huge changes to Ground Zero. Interested to see how that plays out. I'm not sure why they lowered the gas values on Jade though. That map already has relatively few resources as it is...
I think zerg is favored in this map. I think they balanced it out because the third is easy to defend.
Ground Zerg as in grinded? Because last season Ground Zero was really hard for Zergs. No gas at the 3rd natural should help tremendously though vs terran mech switch and generally Protoss who will now favour the left and right expansions. Will be hard for them in vertical positions tho.
TvZ: 15-9 (62.5%) [ Games ] ZvP: 6-5 (54.5%) [ Games ]
Half of the wins belonging to soulkey for ZvP (and one Effort), and only 3 belonging to Flash for TvZ. Would probably be good to look up that guys thread who analyses who is favoured in matchups.
On May 14 2012 21:57 Chef wrote: Ground Zerg as in grinded? Because last season Ground Zero was really hard for Zergs. No gas at the 3rd natural should help tremendously though vs terran mech switch and generally Protoss who will now favour the left and right expansions. Will be hard for them in vertical positions tho.
TvZ: 15-9 (62.5%) [ Games ] ZvP: 6-5 (54.5%) [ Games ]
Half of the wins belonging to soulkey for ZvP (and one Effort), and only 3 belonging to Flash for TvZ. Would probably be good to look up that guys thread who analyses who is favoured in matchups.
Terran has always dominated over zerg since the beginning of time.
On May 14 2012 20:14 GTR wrote: Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley, Ohana and Cloud Kingdom remain unchanged from their ladder editions (which means no lowered supply ramp blocks, no forced cross spawns and gold bases on Antiga).
Neo Electric Circuit remains unchanged. Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley, Ohana and Cloud Kingdom remain unchanged from their ladder editions (which means no lowered supply ramp blocks, no forced cross spawns and gold bases on Antiga).
Uhg.... That is really, really disappointing, and will lower the quality of the games significantly.
On May 15 2012 01:00 corumjhaelen wrote: Yeah, maybe ZvT will become winnable now^^ They might have overdone it though, and TvP on Ground Zero won't be easy imho. I'll miss the cliffs too.
I highly doubt we'll ever see a Protoss player on NGZ 2.0.
lame how all 4 BW maps are 4-player maps. I would of liked a 2 or 3-player map to spice things up. but then chain reaction feels played out and outlier is still too imba I guess :\.
On May 14 2012 20:36 Sayle wrote: I'm not sure why they lowered the gas values on Jade though. That map already has relatively few resources as it is...
I think it was to help out zvt and zvp (since z doesn't take them till much later in game and takes another nat and main first which have normal gas/min values) albeit it will make tvp even harder.
(SC2 thoughts ahead) Weird that after all this time they'd neglect to go with the maps used in the larger SC2 tournies with the gold, no ramp block, etc etc. I know it's a new tourney and everything, but surely they have had eyes on everything up until now...
On May 15 2012 09:37 Duckvillelol wrote: (SC2 thoughts ahead) Weird that after all this time they'd neglect to go with the maps used in the larger SC2 tournies with the gold, no ramp block, etc etc. I know it's a new tourney and everything, but surely they have had eyes on everything up until now...
OGN did fuck up and use a wrong version of Antiga during one of their earlier WCG matches, which confused the players and led to some confusion on whether or not there was going to be a regame. But they did better in subsequent games.
But hey, everyone is chobo at SC2 at first, even tournament organizers.
Any BW-wizards know reasonings behind some of the changes particularly why neo ground zero had its gas completely removed and neo jade gas was reduced? I watch BW but not enough to know the ins and out of each map in each MU
also sc2 ladder maps make me cringe =S i understand they want them to be comfortable but seriously? get rid of golds and small changes that the leagues do =/
On May 14 2012 20:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: ground zero changes are interesting, also why does it look like the mains got bigger? Not like they were small before.
same, looks bigger. maybe because the mineral formations changed, they changed some layout on the main?
BW maps: i have never played on these maps personally so i will rely on the judgement of others.
SC2 maps: i really dislike that they are not forcing cross spawns on antiga, decision to leave in the gold is meh. mules wont be doing as much mining on the gold bases as they used to so it is what it is. i also wish that they would remove horizontal positions on entombed.
more importantly, i can't wait for no supply depots at the bottom of the ramp to create the opportunity for triple pylon/bunker blocks for a zerg player during an ace match. YEAHH!!!!!!
Agree with the sniper ridge changes, given how powerful contains are on this map. I don't really get the gas changes, though (haven't watched all PL games).
For the SC2 maps: Antiga with gold and no forced cross spawns is going to suck. Entombed is possibly even worse. The other maps are ok, even though I'm not too sure about the Ohana which increasingly seems bad for Zerg.
They really should use the non shitty version of sc2 maps. Every tourney in the world uses supply at ramp and stuff, its just gonna make for shitty games in PL if players abuse it.
On May 15 2012 09:59 Megaliskuu wrote: They really should use the non shitty version of sc2 maps. Every tourney in the world uses supply at ramp and stuff, its just gonna make for shitty games in PL if players abuse it.
Shit is gonna go down around here when Bisu wins his first SC2 game with a 3-pylon block.
Fuck this, for the last season of BW, at least bring back the All Star map order. We NEED FS, BS, Desti, Outsider, MatchPoint, Judgement Day, and Sin of Chung-pyoung! They can keep Sniper Ridge though.
They chose the right maps from season 1 i think I sure am glad chain reaction is gone It would be nice to get at least one new map though Or bring back FS
are you sure the chokes were widened on SR? It looks the same size, but that the side entrances were taken out. Makes it even harder for toss to break the contain and take a third on that map.
edit, nvm, I see the other ramps. That may be to drastic.
On May 15 2012 10:42 Xiphos wrote: Fuck this, for the last season of BW, at least bring back the All Star map order. We NEED FS, BS, Desti, Outsider, MatchPoint, Judgement Day, and Sin of Chung-pyoung! They can keep Sniper Ridge though.
ooo. chupung ryeong is my favorite map.
you would think they would tailor this last run for the fans but... you know.
Well there's also the fact that since these guys are going to be practising sc2 as well, they should be playing the BW maps they have been practising most recently. Hey practise sc2, this set of maps for osl, AND this old set of maps for PL. it's unfair enough for the players but this would probably make it even worse
Hmm, I like Sniper Ridge, Neo Jade, Ohana, and Cloud Kingdom. Sadly all the 4 player ladder maps aren't that good, but they must have felt they had to use some. I would have much rather seen Daybreak added.
Ground Zero, Entombed Valley, and Antiga Shipyard I find really ugly and boring. Luckily the two bad sc2 maps are last and are the ones that might not be played. So maybe having to put up with 1 map I don't like is pretty good overall .
Hopefully next season they can start editing these sc2 maps. With the MULE change, leaving gold on Antiga doesn't seem like that big of a deal, though. Hopefully we just don't have everyone abusing ramp wall-offs.
On May 15 2012 09:59 Megaliskuu wrote: They really should use the non shitty version of sc2 maps. Every tourney in the world uses supply at ramp and stuff, its just gonna make for shitty games in PL if players abuse it.
Shit is gonna go down around here when Bisu wins his first SC2 game with a 3-pylon block.
anyone else interested in how kespa didn't use any GSL maps? also everything they used here is on the ladder so that the pros can get some good practice in, but GSL maps are on the ladder and they seem pointedly avoided. I guess we can look forward to those kespa map makers starting to get to work on making some sc2 maps.
also shout out to a small map pool. i'll be watching to see if i get bored with the small map pool. this season stuff might be boring just because of the maps but then maybe we'll see some very map specific strategies.
Man, proleague with both games is a horrible idea in my opinion...I can't believe that they are actually intending to do this. Either keep it pure BW or switch completely to SC2, having a mix only hurts the players and will make for less entertaining games.
On May 15 2012 09:59 Megaliskuu wrote: They really should use the non shitty version of sc2 maps. Every tourney in the world uses supply at ramp and stuff, its just gonna make for shitty games in PL if players abuse it.
Shit is gonna go down around here when Bisu wins his first SC2 game with a 3-pylon block.
And his opponent will retire from progaming.
Teamliquid will burn to the ground as Jaedong ragequits from progaming after a humiliating defeat against Bisu.
Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley, Ohana and Cloud Kingdom remain unchanged from their ladder editions (which means no lowered supply ramp blocks, no forced cross spawns and gold bases on Antiga).
Seriously?
Brace yourselves, pylons blocks and bunker rushes are coming.
When I saw "Proleague Map Updates" I automatically assumed they had swapped out the SC2 map pool (which is terrible for Zergs). But the kept it exactly the same, and to emphasize the unchangedness and sameness of the SC2 maps, they decided to change the BW map.
I guess the silver lining is that BW pros don't need to start out with the likes of Jungle Basin and Steps of War. Still.
I think that when they got some experiencie, probably they will begin use some own sc2 maps mixed with international maps. It would be interesting to see some of the kespa mapmakers with the sc2 editor.
On May 15 2012 17:43 Aunvilgod wrote: The maps for SCII are not as bad as some might think. Antiga is the only map that sucks. Entombed, although being turtley makes awesome games.
The maps aren't bad in GSL/MLG versions. The ladder versions of these maps suck a lot because of this :
which means no lowered supply ramp blocks, no forced cross spawns and gold bases on Antiga
In an interview they said the teams didnt have much practice time and only played on ladder. Which is why they're going with the ladder maps for the proleague. Will be funny seeing a bad game on even badder maps :>
Pylon/bunker blocks won't be that much of a problem on ramps now that the queens have 5 range. They can safely shoot from above the ramp and even kill the worker. It might be a slight annoyance but any player that tries it will also be behind because of it. 3 pylons/bunkers are the same as one hatchery and now they won't be as effective. Using them for cannons will require an additional pylon out of range making the total investment at least 550 minerals for protoss, plus defending your main base because of a possible ling run-by after breaking out.
People are bitching way before time. Besides, cheeses are quite common in sc2, I'm pretty sure we'll see some of them in varying forms.
I think there is still chance that sc2 maps will be changed mid season.
But gold on Antigua sound interesting. Maybe it is balanced after mule nerf and creates interesting games. So we will see glorious return of gold bases in other leagues...
BW Allstars maps sounds bad when you take into consideration that players must practice 2 different games. It's better to leave them with maps that they played last season. That leaves more focus on sc2 which anyway will take over next season.
The ladder editions? Really? Protoss will just 3 pylon block zerg every game. Free win. Disappointed they didn't sort that out, really should have known how important it is to have the tournament maps due to obvious imbalance at the pro level in some of the maps
On May 16 2012 03:27 TSBspartacus wrote: The ladder editions? Really? Protoss will just 3 pylon block zerg every game. Free win. Disappointed they didn't sort that out, really should have known how important it is to have the tournament maps due to obvious imbalance at the pro level in some of the maps
I don't like using the ladder editions being used either, but at least with the queen range nerf a pool first should be able to hold that...... Well once the bw map makers get caught up with what they can do in sc2 they should make some awesome maps.
On May 16 2012 03:27 TSBspartacus wrote: The ladder editions? Really? Protoss will just 3 pylon block zerg every game. Free win. Disappointed they didn't sort that out, really should have known how important it is to have the tournament maps due to obvious imbalance at the pro level in some of the maps
I don't like using the ladder editions being used either, but at least with the queen range nerf a pool first should be able to hold that...... Well once the bw map makers get caught up with what they can do in sc2 they should make some awesome maps.
To all saying 5 range queens will counter 3 pylon block: It won't. Losing that queen time attacking pylons and not using energy hinders you too much. Also, queen ground DPS is really abysmal, and you won't be able to break out without a lot of lost time
On May 17 2012 16:00 Masheyoon wrote: Total SC2 noob question: What is WCS? =/
World Championship Series. It's basically the series of qualifiers for Blizzard's big World Championship tournament that they are having this year in lieu of Blizzcon. More info on the official site.
On May 17 2012 16:00 Masheyoon wrote: Total SC2 noob question: What is WCS? =/
World Championship Series. It's basically the series of qualifiers for Blizzard's big World Championship tournament that they are having this year in lieu of Blizzcon. More info on the official site.
Quick summary of the Championship versions vs the Ladder Versions, and why people are happy:
1. All maps have a "lowered" supply depot on the bottom of the ramp, which acts as unbuildable terrain until it is killed. This prevents Terran from walling the bottom of the ramp to prevent worked scouting (which takes one fewer building that walling the top). It also prevents a really silly cheese where you wall the bottom of the Zerg's ramps with pylons and cannon rush him, trapping him on one base for a really long time.
2. On the two Blizzard-made maps, have different rules for spawning. Entombed Valley disallows horizontal spawns (i.e., you can spawn anywhere, but your opponent can only be vertical spawns or cross-positions), and Antiga Shipyard is cross positions only. These rules exist on a lot of Blizzard maps, and in this case, it's because horizontal spawns make it extremely difficult to take a fourth base. I've seen a GSL test map that used the cross-spawn rule to creative effect by having the mains be different top left vs bottom right than top right vs bottom left, but here it's because it's Blizzard and their maps (while much better than their early maps) still have issues. Entombed Valley MIGHT be cross-spawn on WCS (can someone correct me on this?) but it's just no horizontal in the GSL.
3. On Antiga Shipyard, gold bases are removed, meaning proleague won't have any gold bases at all. You mine gold minerals faster than blue minerals, and this favors Terran, both because of mules and because they go bio a lot and thus use the minerals more. With Terran no longer winning everything and the mule getting nerfed, gold bases may come back, but Antiga Shipyard is considered a little bit Terran favored already because controlling the center controls the map, and Terrans are best at directly locking down an area in SC2. With the new queen, this may not be true for long as top Zergs can creep up the whole map very fast. (If you want something mechanical to be impressed by in SC2, creep spread is very hard and doesn't much benefit from MBS and the like), but we'll see.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wwyVx.jpg)
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next season.
