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On May 08 2012 03:47 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:35 Mjolnir wrote:On May 04 2012 05:01 Bijan wrote:On May 04 2012 02:00 Mjolnir wrote:
SC2 is not worth it.
It's pretty and all but doesn't hold a candle to BW. I jumped on the SC2 bandwagon when beta came out and it wasn't too long before I realized how utterly lacking it is compared to BW. I stayed around for patch after patch thinking "this'll be the one that makes it great" and it just hasn't happened.
Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran.
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional.
Utterly heartbreaking.
To go from the dynamism of the Terran bio, bio/mech, mech, positional play of BW to SC2's marine/marauder faceroll style is just sad. It was - and still is - the biggest let-down of SC2 for me, a former Terran player. I imagine it will be for many of you as well.
EDIT: Spelling error.
This is simply not true anymore. Only in TvP do you see only bio-centric play-styles. Hopefully that will change when new units arrive. Either way, your assessment of Terran is very outdated. More on topic: I hope that after the BW scene dies in Korea that there will be some more foreign tournaments, even if they don't have money on the line. There is a vocal minority of SC2 fans that think BW should die, but I know many others feel reverently about the game. Most people initially got the new game because of BW, even if they only played customs and BGH. I never see any BW tournaments streamed on TL but maybe when there is no BW in korea to watch we can see more of them pop up. I will certainly watch. It is true. While I get that Terran has a lot more diversity and certainly more openers than the other races feel they have (especially Zerg) at the end of the day, for most people, a strong bio composition is all you need. You can toss in a few tanks, but the majority of your firepower is infantry. This has been seen in tonnes of games from pros over and over. It simply doesn't have the depth of BW - and for most players there's no incentive to look for it when straight bio is enough to get you into master league. On May 04 2012 12:55 DirtyCash wrote:On May 04 2012 02:00 Mjolnir wrote:
SC2 is not worth it.
It's pretty and all but doesn't hold a candle to BW. I jumped on the SC2 bandwagon when beta came out and it wasn't too long before I realized how utterly lacking it is compared to BW. I stayed around for patch after patch thinking "this'll be the one that makes it great" and it just hasn't happened.
Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran.
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional.
Utterly heartbreaking.
To go from the dynamism of the Terran bio, bio/mech, mech, positional play of BW to SC2's marine/marauder faceroll style is just sad. It was - and still is - the biggest let-down of SC2 for me, a former Terran player. I imagine it will be for many of you as well.
EDIT: Spelling error.
Its hard to put that many factual errors and ignorant statements in a single post, quite a feat really. Terran is by far the deepest and most strategically diverse race in SC2. Thats a fact that even non-Terran players often bring up in balance discussions. "Bio only" and often optional medivacs? Complete and utter bullshit, you have to outplay your opponent by a large margin to win with that, especially in TvZ and TvT. You played 5 games in beta, congrats bro but you really dont know what you are talking about. Thanks for your condescension, unfortunately it doesn't make me wrong. Terran may be the deepest and most strategically diverse race in SC2 - and I suppose that's correct all things considered - so that being the case, that's a pretty sad statement on SC2 in general because it would suggest a) Zerg and Protoss are flat and boring as all hell (I would certainly agree) considering that b) BW Terran was far more interesting to play than SC2 Terran - requiring and/or utilizing vastly different strats (and entirely different units) to be effective vs. Protoss and Zerg. I have consistently placed master league in SC2 with Zerg and Terran as my two main races since this game came out (well, diamond before there was master league) and I was a highly proficient BW player - so it's not like I'm talking out of my ass here. You can absolutely dominate with straight bio - there are pros who built a career out of this fact. As for the "5 games in beta" comment - give me a break kid, I've probably been playing Starcraft RTS's since before you could hold a mouse. I'm glad you're a fan of SC2, that's great, but there's a reason many people (including many pros) think SC2 is lacking in technical depth and skill level when compared with BW. It's certainly not because they're basing those opinions off "5 games in beta." Could you follow up on the bolded part? The only pro that I've ever actually heard (and can find evidence for) disparaging SC2 is IdrA. IdrA said he's talked to others that think the same way, but they could have just been polite and not wanting to argue with him. I also think it's very telling that the one vocal player who hates SC2 and thinks it's too easy has a 26% win-rate in 2012.
Idra has said as much for sure; and to be fair he was saying that when he was performing much better than he is now so I don't think his current record has a lot to do with his feelings on the matter.
I will go back and try to find the sources I've read or heard this sentiment being expressed. I believe someone above me made mention of coaches and other players having expressed similar feelings. Perhaps that poster might have something to add as well.
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You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional.
You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies.
I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio.
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On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio.
Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran.
Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2.
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On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2.
To be perfectly honest, Blizz did goof up Protoss, and even Zerg to a lesser extent. I just found the comment dishonest.
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
Sure, if you are good enough, you can bio your way to masters (ie. top 5% of the ladder). I'm sure even in BW, you could get top 5% with nothing past hatchery tech if you had the skill.
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I play protoss in both games, and definitely its more fun in BW, but i has to say it, i frickin love phoenix harass in Sc2. Theres nothing better than that in PvP
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On May 08 2012 02:37 nttea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:59 Ero-Sennin wrote:
I don't get it. You're admitting you were bad and you're trying to talk about perceived deepness in the game? That's like some kid who sucked at tee ball trying to explain that professional baseball really isn't all that deep.
Yes, speed is important, but it's not the main thing at your level, and I'm pretty sure it isn't the main reason why you'd lose your ZvT unless your APM was like 10.
Zerg was my offrace, I could maybe play it at a 150-160 average? I could still beat people at your level and a little higher with my shitty zerg (and it was shitty) because I knew what they were showing me and I knew what I had to do to win. well i was responding to someone making claims about the deepness of starcraft2 and i just wanted to use similar arguments... and a little higher than my level of zerg would be what... c+/b-? who the fuck calls that shitty.
+ Show Spoiler +Not to get the thread off topic, but yes, C+/B- is not something to brag about, especially if it's 200-200 C+ or something absurdly bad. That and the fact that ranks on iccup now don't mean as much because a lot of the top players have moved on/quit means you get even more crappy people hitting higher than they should. And yes, there are shitty people who hit A-. I'm not going to call them out, but you have to look at everything in context. And you, thinking you knew something about the game when you don't is quite sad.
Also, to a previous poster who was trying to compare fish/iccup ranks, maybe that's accurate, maybe not. Not sure, I never played fish. I played NeoGamei, that was a long time ago, that and WGTour/PGTour/Iccup
My post BW plans occurred a couple years ago when I got SC2 in October 2010. Been playing iccup off and on since then but not for a couple months now.
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On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2.
Eww, Zerg is the worst race designed in SC2 imo. Zergs have all those gimmicks like Fungal Growth, trying to pass as a poor man's Plague and Ensnare. Them adding in Queens just doesn't corresponds to the lore. The level of hierechy for Zerg is the Queen of Blade > The Cerebrate > Overlord. By that logic, the gameplay have introduced a whole bunch of Kerrigans running around. They barely explained to us what happened to Lurkers/ Scourges and all those missing units. Its like they want the fans to completely forget about the mystique of the old.
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On May 08 2012 06:46 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. Eww, Zerg is the worst race designed in SC2 imo. Zergs have all those gimmicks like Fungal Growth, trying to pass as a poor man's Plague and Ensnare. Them adding in Queens just doesn't corresponds to the lore. The level of hierechy for Zerg is the Queen of Blade > The Cerebrate > Overlord. By that logic, the gameplay have introduced a whole bunch of Kerrigans running around. They barely explained to us what happened to Lurkers/ Scourges and all those missing units. Its like they want the fans to completely forget about the mystique of the old.
Lore wise Queens are those who watch over the hatcheries and protect the larvas. Not much in BW and perfectly in Sc2. A zerg queen as unit has nothing to do with Queen of Blade, it just a nickname.
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On May 08 2012 06:46 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. Eww, Zerg is the worst race designed in SC2 imo. Zergs have all those gimmicks like Fungal Growth, trying to pass as a poor man's Plague and Ensnare. Them adding in Queens just doesn't corresponds to the lore. The level of hierechy for Zerg is the Queen of Blade > The Cerebrate > Overlord. By that logic, the gameplay have introduced a whole bunch of Kerrigans running around. They barely explained to us what happened to Lurkers/ Scourges and all those missing units. Its like they want the fans to completely forget about the mystique of the old.
Even as a huge fan of SC2, I have to admit there is no doubt that Blizz completely messed up the lore and destroyed the "feeling" that SC1 and BW had. They practically destroyed Raynor's character and put into place a huge, completely dumb retcon for a major Zerg character. I guess ultimately it felt too much like a "Blizzard" storyline, if that makes sense. It was too much like WoW or WCIII and not enough like the gritty, dirty SC of old. I don't feel that the lore is important for the competitive side of the games, though, and I understand that they wanted SC2 to be a new game and not the same as BW (for better or worse).
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On May 08 2012 06:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. To be perfectly honest, Blizz did goof up Protoss, and even Zerg to a lesser extent. I just found the comment dishonest. Show nested quote +
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
Sure, if you are good enough, you can bio your way to masters (ie. top 5% of the ladder). I'm sure even in BW, you could get top 5% with nothing past hatchery tech if you had the skill.
Thats a pretty big if there...
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On May 08 2012 08:26 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. To be perfectly honest, Blizz did goof up Protoss, and even Zerg to a lesser extent. I just found the comment dishonest.
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
Sure, if you are good enough, you can bio your way to masters (ie. top 5% of the ladder). I'm sure even in BW, you could get top 5% with nothing past hatchery tech if you had the skill. Thats a pretty big if there...
Steal some builds from Kwanro VODs, everyone's favorite MSL runner-up.
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On May 08 2012 08:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:26 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. To be perfectly honest, Blizz did goof up Protoss, and even Zerg to a lesser extent. I just found the comment dishonest.
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
Sure, if you are good enough, you can bio your way to masters (ie. top 5% of the ladder). I'm sure even in BW, you could get top 5% with nothing past hatchery tech if you had the skill. Thats a pretty big if there... Steal some builds from Kwanro VODs, everyone's favorite MSL runner-up.
As much as he is known for pseudo-aggressiveness, no way that you can understand the intricacy behind his play. In his games, even if he fail to pay attention for one tiny fraction of a second on the state of the game, he would be a such bad position. Kwanro is the type of player that say "I am going to challenge you in mechanics, come get it." A mere amateur would fall due to the pressure.
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On May 08 2012 08:42 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 08 2012 08:26 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. To be perfectly honest, Blizz did goof up Protoss, and even Zerg to a lesser extent. I just found the comment dishonest.
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
Sure, if you are good enough, you can bio your way to masters (ie. top 5% of the ladder). I'm sure even in BW, you could get top 5% with nothing past hatchery tech if you had the skill. Thats a pretty big if there... Steal some builds from Kwanro VODs, everyone's favorite MSL runner-up. As much as he is known for pseudo-aggressiveness, no way that you can understand the intricacy behind his play. In his games, even if he fail to pay attention for one tiny fraction of a second on the state of the game, he would be a such bad position. Kwanro is the type of player that say "I am going to challenge you in mechanics, come get it." A mere amateur would fall due to the pressure.
yes but not really. Kwanro's type of play was to look for the "round edges" when people kept trying to cut more corners. He always try to capitalize on those type of things: for example, terrans make a bunker at the nat to prevent heavy ling play, but they have to react by pulling SCVs to do so. Kwanro attacked the bunker before the opponents could react, or run up an unblocked ramp.
(Kwanro vs Light)
However, once he gets up to people like Flash or Stork, you see that they is able to react fast enough to prevent this type of play. It's not super deep, but it is heavily based on mechanics.
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On May 08 2012 08:42 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 08 2012 08:26 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. To be perfectly honest, Blizz did goof up Protoss, and even Zerg to a lesser extent. I just found the comment dishonest.
I loved Terran in BW. It was such a great race to play. I feel bad for all the Terran BW fans moving to SC2 and how heartbroken they'll be to know that you play EVERY match up the same way.
BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO
Sure, if you are good enough, you can bio your way to masters (ie. top 5% of the ladder). I'm sure even in BW, you could get top 5% with nothing past hatchery tech if you had the skill. Thats a pretty big if there... Steal some builds from Kwanro VODs, everyone's favorite MSL runner-up. As much as he is known for pseudo-aggressiveness, no way that you can understand the intricacy behind his play. In his games, even if he fail to pay attention for one tiny fraction of a second on the state of the game, he would be a such bad position. Kwanro is the type of player that say "I am going to challenge you in mechanics, come get it." A mere amateur would fall due to the pressure.
You don't need prolevel mechanics to be the top 5% of amateurs/casuals/semi-casuals.
ZvZ: End it before opponent gets lair and mutalisks. No lair is a bit of a limitation but if you are better than your opponent in micro, you should be fine. It is amateur ZvZ afterall.
ZvP: 3 hatch hydra bust every.single.game. We all know how strong Zerg cheese and hydralisks are versus P.
ZvT: Trickiest matchup without lair. Basically cheese fest and you'll be losing lots to equal skilled player.
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On May 08 2012 07:12 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:46 Xiphos wrote:On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. Eww, Zerg is the worst race designed in SC2 imo. Zergs have all those gimmicks like Fungal Growth, trying to pass as a poor man's Plague and Ensnare. Them adding in Queens just doesn't corresponds to the lore. The level of hierechy for Zerg is the Queen of Blade > The Cerebrate > Overlord. By that logic, the gameplay have introduced a whole bunch of Kerrigans running around. They barely explained to us what happened to Lurkers/ Scourges and all those missing units. Its like they want the fans to completely forget about the mystique of the old. Even as a huge fan of SC2, I have to admit there is no doubt that Blizz completely messed up the lore and destroyed the "feeling" that SC1 and BW had. They practically destroyed Raynor's character and put into place a huge, completely dumb retcon for a major Zerg character. I guess ultimately it felt too much like a "Blizzard" storyline, if that makes sense. It was too much like WoW or WCIII and not enough like the gritty, dirty SC of old. I don't feel that the lore is important for the competitive side of the games, though, and I understand that they wanted SC2 to be a new game and not the same as BW (for better or worse).
Even as a 14 year old who just put cheats on every story mission even i somewhat knew the story line. Blizzard really fucked the story line if there was anything to be known it was the Kerrigan was wanted dead by EVERYONE especially Raynor. Now hes just like "I love you dood" Going off topic but this can not be ignored!
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On May 08 2012 08:59 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:12 densha wrote:On May 08 2012 06:46 Xiphos wrote:On May 08 2012 06:03 vOdToasT wrote:On May 08 2012 05:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:You can get into masters making marines, marauders, and medivacs. That's it - and many games medivacs will be optional. You can actually make it into masters opening with a 6-pool for all your games. Someone has done it in the past with proof on TL. It's not that hard to make masters if you have enough skill. It's all about skill and pracrtice. Of course, if you want to compete at the highest level, you'll need to diversify your strategies. I'm a bit confused that you think Bio is the only composition. Hellions, siege tanks, vikings, banshees are all standard units, and sometimes even Thors and Battlecruisers. Unless you are getting your knowledge from the early in SC2's lifetime before the metagame evolved beyond bio. Honestly, the biggest disappointment is Terran. Protoss too, man. In Brood War, I was a Protoss user (switched to Zerg after the relase of SC2, was inspired by Jaedong), but when I started playing StarCraft 2 I just couldn't play Protoss anymore. They really fucked that race up. All of their units are fucking boring, and I just felt fucking lame winning as Protoss in SC2. Winning wasn't satisfying at all. So I switched to Zerg in SC2. Eww, Zerg is the worst race designed in SC2 imo. Zergs have all those gimmicks like Fungal Growth, trying to pass as a poor man's Plague and Ensnare. Them adding in Queens just doesn't corresponds to the lore. The level of hierechy for Zerg is the Queen of Blade > The Cerebrate > Overlord. By that logic, the gameplay have introduced a whole bunch of Kerrigans running around. They barely explained to us what happened to Lurkers/ Scourges and all those missing units. Its like they want the fans to completely forget about the mystique of the old. Even as a huge fan of SC2, I have to admit there is no doubt that Blizz completely messed up the lore and destroyed the "feeling" that SC1 and BW had. They practically destroyed Raynor's character and put into place a huge, completely dumb retcon for a major Zerg character. I guess ultimately it felt too much like a "Blizzard" storyline, if that makes sense. It was too much like WoW or WCIII and not enough like the gritty, dirty SC of old. I don't feel that the lore is important for the competitive side of the games, though, and I understand that they wanted SC2 to be a new game and not the same as BW (for better or worse). Even as a 14 year old who just put cheats on every story mission even i somewhat knew the story line. Blizzard really fucked the story line if there was anything to be known it was the Kerrigan was wanted dead by EVERYONE especially Raynor. Now hes just like "I love you dood" Going off topic but this can not be ignored!
Raynor was always conflicted after leaving her to die. But I recall him being more aggressive towards her in BW then in SC2.
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Korea (South)1306 Posts
On May 08 2012 08:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:
You don't need prolevel mechanics to be the top 5% of amateurs/casuals/semi-casuals.
ZvZ: End it before opponent gets lair and mutalisks. No lair is a bit of a limitation but if you are better than your opponent in micro, you should be fine. It is amateur ZvZ afterall.
ZvP: 3 hatch hydra bust every.single.game. We all know how strong Zerg cheese and hydralisks are versus P.
ZvT: Trickiest matchup without lair. Basically cheese fest and you'll be losing lots to equal skilled player.
Uh... no. You either have never even played BW or you have no idea how the game is played. Top 5% of amateurs would include programers such as SaviOr, HiYa, Terr0r, and such huge clans such as NsP or [neox]. To even suggest any of them don't have pro level mechanics is beyond ignorant. Even if you were to limit your parameters to iccup-only, that would mean very high B or B+/A-/A/A+. That level of player also has very solid mechanics.
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On May 08 2012 10:47 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:
You don't need prolevel mechanics to be the top 5% of amateurs/casuals/semi-casuals.
ZvZ: End it before opponent gets lair and mutalisks. No lair is a bit of a limitation but if you are better than your opponent in micro, you should be fine. It is amateur ZvZ afterall.
ZvP: 3 hatch hydra bust every.single.game. We all know how strong Zerg cheese and hydralisks are versus P.
ZvT: Trickiest matchup without lair. Basically cheese fest and you'll be losing lots to equal skilled player. Uh... no. You either have never even played BW or you have no idea how the game is played. Top 5% of amateurs would include programers such as SaviOr, HiYa, Terr0r, and such huge clans such as NsP or [neox]. To even suggest any of them don't have pro level mechanics is beyond ignorant. Even if you were to limit your parameters to iccup-only, that would mean very high B or B+/A-/A/A+. That level of player also has very solid mechanics.
No. Read what the conversation was about.
I was talking about masters league in SC2 which is the top 5% of anyone who has ever played ladder, ie. someone like myself. And no, I am not a progamer. The comparision I'm making is that it's easy to make the top 5% of anyone who has played BW using a simple strategy, as long as you can execute it well.
I seriously doubt that 1 out of every 20 people who has played BW is considered a progamer.
Edit: I think you are misinterpreting what is meant by "amateurs/casuals/semi-casuals". You are interpreting as if that meant professional amateurs?
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Korea (South)1306 Posts
On May 08 2012 11:11 SarcasmMonster wrote:
No. Read what the conversation was about.
I was talking about masters league in SC2 which is the top 5% of anyone who has ever played ladder, ie. someone like myself. And no, I am not a progamer. The comparision I'm making is that it's easy to make the top 5% of anyone who has played BW using a simple strategy, as long as you can execute it well.
I seriously doubt that 1 out of every 20 people who has played BW is considered a progamer.
I did read what it was about and I'm telling you again, you're VERY wrong. I know what masters league is in sc2. I'm low masters. Most everyone I know who was even D+ in iccup rankings made masters and anyone past that is high masters or GM.
Population of iccup is around 1000-2000 players with only about 400-600 being online at any one time. Population of fish is around 100,000-200,000 players with 30,000-80,000 being online at any one time. Population of brain clan is around 30,000 players (used to be a LOT more but brain clan kind of fell off after it got hacked and it took them months to bring it back online). Add on the Garena population and the progamer population (Garena has 1000-2000 and there's at least a few thousand licensed progamers). Add all this up and you have close to or a little over a quarter of a million SC players still active. Since you specified amateurs/casual/semi-casual players, let's exclude the few thousand progamers. Still leaves a quarter of a million people. 5% of a quarter of a million is about 12,500 players. If you took the top 12,500 players of the entire amateur scene, you're looking at people who score between 950-1100 on the fish battle ranking system. As anyone with experience will tell you, that's about C+/B-/B rank. Less the C+, more the B-/B.
This is all considering the rankings are meaning less and less with all the good players moving/retiring/leaving the scene which means worse players can score higher because there's nobody better to stomp them back down. So.... no you won't reach that high with just being a 1 trick pony for each match-up.
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On May 08 2012 11:34 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 11:11 SarcasmMonster wrote:
No. Read what the conversation was about.
I was talking about masters league in SC2 which is the top 5% of anyone who has ever played ladder, ie. someone like myself. And no, I am not a progamer. The comparision I'm making is that it's easy to make the top 5% of anyone who has played BW using a simple strategy, as long as you can execute it well.
I seriously doubt that 1 out of every 20 people who has played BW is considered a progamer. I did read what it was about and I'm telling you again, you're VERY wrong. I know what masters league is in sc2. I'm low masters. Most everyone I know who was even D+ in iccup rankings made masters and anyone past that is high masters or GM. Population of iccup is around 1000-2000 players with only about 400-600 being online at any one time. Population of fish is around 100,000-200,000 players with 30,000-80,000 being online at any one time. Population of brain clan is around 30,000 players (used to be a LOT more but brain clan kind of fell off after it got hacked and it took them months to bring it back online). Add on the Garena population and the progamer population (Garena has 1000-2000 and there's at least a few thousand licensed progamers). Add all this up and you have close to or a little over a quarter of a million SC players still active. Since you specified amateurs/casual/semi-casual players, let's exclude the few thousand progamers. Still leaves a quarter of a million people. 5% of a quarter of a million is about 12,500 players. If you took the top 12,500 players of the entire amateur scene, you're looking at people who score between 950-1100 on the fish battle ranking system. As anyone with experience will tell you, that's about C+/B-/B rank. Less the C+, more the B-/B. This is all considering the rankings are meaning less and less with all the good players moving/retiring/leaving the scene which means worse players can score higher because there's nobody better to stomp them back down. So.... no you won't reach that high with just being a 1 trick pony for each match-up.
Your only counting players on special private platforms: iccup and fish. These are players who went out of their way, away from the path of least resistence, to seek higher competition. You are already limiting your sample to the higher percentiles when you do this. The vast majority of noobs in BW's history has only ever played on B.net, these are your casual gamers. They are equivalent to the guys in Bronze, Silver, Gold league in SC2. The guys who play just for fun for a few hours, never improves too much on skill, and don't care about rank or finding competitve opponents who can whoop their ass and teach them a lesson.
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