EPTQuite impresive compilation, I admit.
BW Head Coaches on SC2 - Page 50
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
Quite impresive compilation, I admit. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:27 Lefiathen wrote: Well you should see this video, it shows some amazing micro, along with well i dont think some of the clips are the best micro every but... see the inmortal drop micro at minute 0:18 video Well it would have actually been better if that micro was done to take out crucial targets but than again that micro vods is just to show off the players reflex and I find it really idiotic that the units that can spew acid blood and was not able to shoot up at at that warp prism . Seriously what the hell is wrong with sc2 PvZ ? Give me my broodwar hydras any time man not only are they fast on the ground without creeps they can shoot ground and air at the same time . | ||
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LEGAsee
170 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:27 Lefiathen wrote: Well you should see this video, it shows some amazing micro, along with well i dont think some of the clips are the best micro every but... see the inmortal drop micro at minute 0:18 video Ok, I don't mean this in an insulting manner but if you think that is anything (the IMMORTAL drop at 18) spectacular whatsoever you obviously haven't followed Broodwar and my opinion of SC2 is even lower. The rest wasn't bad , though the only one where I actually was impressed was the marine splitting.. I'll go see if I can find something on youtube for you that is actually amazing micro...alright, this vid. It isn't exactly showcasing micro and is more of "omg Bisu is amazing", but it is far more exciting use of shuttle play. Here is a vid that is actual amazing micro. Please remember that mines do not take priority and must be individually targeted before they plant and are cloaked or attack you and you die. You'll notice Bisu only uses the exact amount of dragoons to target the mines and has the rest target the enemy army...all before the dragoon attack cooldown cycles. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
This video is a much better illustration to what broodwar players can do with their shuttle .. So close to death and yet in a hands of a bw pro the shuttle lives to see another day because of some sick reflex . | ||
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LEGAsee
170 Posts
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LEGAsee
170 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:46 Sawamura wrote: @Legasee This video is a much better illustration to what broodwar players can do with their shuttle .. So close to death and yet in a hands of a bw pro the shuttle lives to see another day because of some sick reflex . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGlt2_xgaUk Yeah, thanks. I just did a quick youtube search. I think Bisu's play is really good, just get past him killing drones in the first 15 seconds. I should have totally thought of Kal and his trademark red shuttles. I feel like I always have to add that these players are doing this while dealing with Broodwars "archaic" interface and macroing at the same time. Makes it way more impressive and fun to watch for me. I couldn't do that in a million years. | ||
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
Just watch anything MarineKing does.. you ll be impressed no matter what game you play :D | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:49 Hiea wrote: When you see some absolutely perfect splits against banelings, or how a pure bio ball somehow manages to take down protoss army with 4 colossus without vikings, the micro is impressive aswell. Just watch anything MarineKing does.. you ll be impressed no matter what game you play :D I Don't know about marine king only I knew that he Appeared on Yellow's attempt at becoming a sc2 progamer in Project A and basically the only thing that been playing on my mind was Boxer crazy sick MnM micro against Yellow . I am sorry but sc2 graphics is really a turn off for me and the lack of intensive fights all over the map is really not making me interested in sc2 . Besides the sit on two base and watch huge deathball units fight to death in an instant and whoever comes out lucky wins the game . On April 25 2012 03:55 Garmer wrote: someone has the video of boxer's wraith micro against ameba(don't remember the name) but was on char tileset, was truly epic Epic moments like that should be in this compilation ... | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
I understand high rank players who have followed the scene and know everything about the game, but still if u enjoy the game u dont need proscene to play it. Way to mastering the game is a ambition alone to keep u playing. So be active, play the game, stay in TL and there will be Broodwar fun forever, because fans united are much stronger than any e-sports organisation! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:52 Garmer wrote: aside from rines vs bane, all other micro in sc2 do not have a meaning in the sense that they do not serve as an advantage to win the game, unlike in BW, where the things that BIsu has done in the video, put him in a serious advantage You kinda just showed your lack of knowledge of sc2 with this post. Micro matters very heavily for terran players in tvz and tvp and I imagine tvt. If terran's don't even try microing their army will get trashed in both tvz/tvp. We all know bw has better micro based harassment you can do, but dont' try to act like sc2 has none whatsoever as that is just plain false. Also for the people saying that all sc2 is, is people sitting on 2 bases for their deathball, am I right to assume the last time you watched an sc2 match was over a year ago? Game has changed alot and you rarely see the "turtle on 2 base to get deathball and attack". That disappeared a long time ago lol... | ||
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:52 Garmer wrote: aside from rines vs bane, all other micro in sc2 do not have a meaning in the sense that they do not serve as an advantage to win the game, unlike in BW, where the things that BIsu has done in the video, put him in a serious advantage A lot of micro such as the Immortal drops can really win you the game in PvP, taking out tech, or probes, since PvP isn't evolved around expansions early, so killing probes is massive, and its hard to actually deal with aswell, Zealots are outmicroed by loading up, and stalkers just die if the Immortal looks at them. Watching micro isn't everything though, my favorite kind of games in SC2 is the epic base trade games, watching the players decision making, and base trades at so much tension to the game. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:55 Sawamura wrote: I Don't know about marine king only I knew that he Appeared on Yellow's attempt at becoming a sc2 progamer in Project A and basically the only thing that been playing on my mind was Boxer crazy sick MnM micro against Yellow . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJp0t9n8DWk I am sorry but sc2 graphics is really a turn off for me and the lack of intensive fights all over the map is really not making me interested in sc2 . Besides the sit on two base and watch huge deathball units fight to death in an instant and whoever comes out lucky wins the game . Epic moments like that should be in this compilation ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbMIIht8xq0&feature=relmfu Your kidding me, do you really think that is what sc2 still is? Turtle on 2 base, get deathball, and "get lucky" and win? lol that is so false I can't even -_-. I understand you hate sc2, but at least try to come up with something true and not that false information. 2 base deathballs disappeared like a year or so ago. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:40 LEGAsee wrote: Ok, I don't mean this in an insulting manner but if you think that is anything (the IMMORTAL drop at 18) spectacular whatsoever you obviously haven't followed Broodwar and my opinion of SC2 is even lower. The rest wasn't bad , though the only one where I actually was impressed was the marine splitting.. I'll go see if I can find something on youtube for you that is actually amazing micro...alright, this vid. It isn't exactly showcasing micro and is more of "omg Bisu is amazing", but it is far more exciting use of shuttle play. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjzH69xlS_Q&feature=related Here is a vid that is actual amazing micro. Please remember that mines do not take priority and must be individually targeted before they plant and are cloaked or attack you and you die. You'll notice Bisu only uses the exact amount of dragoons to target the mines and has the rest target the enemy army...all before the dragoon attack cooldown cycles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12BZjrGJxH8&feature=fvst Get back to me in 10 years when sc2 pro gamers have broken the game down so much that they can do these kinds of things too. I believe BW is a better game than sc2 right now. It's more competetive and mroe fun. But to compare micro 12 years into the BW pro scene to 1 year into the sc2 pro scene is ridiculous. Lets see you pull out some 2002 micro highlights from BW and we can then have a real discussion. | ||
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On April 25 2012 03:57 blade55555 wrote: You kinda just showed your lack of knowledge of sc2 with this post. Micro matters very heavily for terran players in tvz and tvp and I imagine tvt. If terran's don't even try microing their army will get trashed in both tvz/tvp. We all know bw has better micro based harassment you can do, but dont' try to act like sc2 has none whatsoever as that is just plain false. Also for the people saying that all sc2 is, is people sitting on 2 bases for their deathball, am I right to assume the last time you watched an sc2 match was over a year ago? Game has changed alot and you rarely see the "turtle on 2 base to get deathball and attack". That disappeared a long time ago lol... ToD v Nada if that was Nada in Broodwar he could have done a two base timing push to kill the greedy protoss but than again siege tanks are pretty weak in sc2 . So yeah........ | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
Like any sport or competitive activity the main attraction points of watching it as spectator are usually: 1. personal association of physical activity or skill, 2. clear goals and objectives with in the rules of the game, 3. rather or not it's visually obvious when certain events are happening, and 4. pacing. So lets for example compare both of the starcraft games to another rts so you can understand what I'm saying, WC3. 1. The level of professional skill and mechanical ability for both games while differing (with WC3 requiring slightly lower apm and mechanical multitasking), professional WC3 players are still impressive enough and the skill gap between a casual gamer and a professional large enough for us to appreciate watching it. 2. WC3 suffers in this respect vs starcraft because even though it is also obvious that you need to secure resources and kill the opponent's army and defend your own base, it's not clear unless to adamant fans rather the various goals of creeping, killing heroes vs killing units, spending money on hero items or spending money on units are prioritized. Starcraft has a much clearer and simpler system of win conditions in comparison. 3. Again WC3 suffers in this respect because even though it's usually visually obvious when specific things are happening or abilities are being used, at any time the retreating army with a smaller army size and unit count could actually be the winning side because of how complex the unit composition and ability composition can get in the game due to the variety of hero abilities and map item / neutral shop / unit variations. This makes the outcomes of battles very indecisive for the viewer unless it's a complete landslide victory. Where as in starcraft if you see one side come out of a battle with more workers / units it's visually obvious who got the upper hand in the engagement. 4. Pacing is a characteristic that can be based more on personal preference unlike the previous 3 points which are always higher X = better or easier to observe X = better. In this case WC3 has a much slower pacing than any of the starcraft games but focuses on small scale micro battles alot more, units take alot more hits to kill than in starcraft and abilities last much longer in respect to attack speed and rate of abilities being used in an engagement. Rather or not you perfer a slower and more localized vs a faster and more multitask oriented game is your personal preference. But if a game is paced too slowly or too quickly it becomes difficult to discern points 2 and 3 because the audience either becomes bored of events not having enough significance, or things are happening too quickly for people to keep track of. This being said let's look at the difference between BW and SC2. 1. Both of the starcraft games can go up to ridiculous amounts of mechanical multitasking, BW is a much more analog controlled and limiting in terms of the tools the player has to automate these processes (building grouping, queueing commands, control group limit, etc) which lends itself to people thinking that BW is the harder game to play in terms of just shear physical requirement and mechanics. 2. Both games have very clear objectives in terms of what the goals of the game are. Some can even argue that BW is the more obtruse because of how different tech levels vastly affect the outcomes of battles (defiler consume timing, mutalisk timing, etc), but thats simply because one game is more established meta game wise. 3. BW beats out SC2 in this case because of the unit clustering and grouping which is the result of better pathing ai (better technology =/= better presentation in this case). It's immediately obvious which army is winning in BW because each unit is immediately distinguisheable even in large groups and their functions obvious. For example a zergling / lurker / defiler composition engaging marine / tank / science vessel in BW is much easier for the viewer to see which side is winning and which units are being lost than when a collosis death ball is engaging a terran bio death ball. There are cases in SC2 where the new technology helps create easily distinguisheable scenarios and outcomes (blink stalkers, forcefields, etc), but scenarios like that are usually restricted to the early - mid game, with very few exceptions (mothership vortex being one of them). This is also caused partially by: 4. SC2 is paced much faster than BW. Units die much faster in SC2 because of adjusted ai pathing that allows units to engage and perform maximum dps almost all the time, and alot of units eliminate micro potential entirely when engaging other units. In BW it's at least still possible to micro hydras against a reaver or micro small units like marines or zerglings vs highest tier caster abilities, not because the game is more forgiving, but because the game is paced slower. Where as in SC2 microing marines vs a collosis or microing workers against offensive units is almost impossible because of how the pathing is optimized. This means that in BW alot of small micro situations actually become alot more important and interesting to watch because each command matters. Whereas in SC2 alot of situations the optimal thing to do is actually to just 1A after you establish a concave because it's almost impossible for the player to micro and be rewarded more from that than if he spent the apm doing other things once the dps of the unit group reaches a certain level. The easiest example to give is in BW the movement and micro of a single group of 8-12 marines with medics can allow it to engage a variety if not all types of units and you are rewarded because of it; in SC2 the game is paced so quickly that some times it's simply impossible to do so. Feel free to draw your own conclusions because the biggest disparaties can still be subjective, for example I personally have no problems with visualizing and understanding which player is coming out on top when im watching SC2, and I have personal issues with the pacing of SC2 and thus perfer BW. The point is just that BW veterans don't watch it over SC2 for no reason other than elitism. | ||
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:01 StarBrift wrote: Get back to me in 10 years when sc2 pro gamers have broken the game down so much that they can do these kinds of things too. I believe BW is a better game than sc2 right now. It's more competetive and mroe fun. But to compare micro 12 years into the BW pro scene to 1 year into the sc2 pro scene is ridiculous. Lets see you pull out some 2002 micro highlights from BW and we can then have a real discussion. why do they need another 10 years for micro? and this "oh SC2 is so young" thing is fucking stupid. SC2 has the background of both SC high level play and Wc3 level play. everyone already knows what micro macro and shit is. SC2 has the RTS background of 12 years high level play. while SC had nothing. still dont think why anything in 10 years would be different with micro. either they can do it now or not. btw guys in that little SC2 "micro" video u posted is stuff form this micro bot thingy. and set up stuff. so yeah sick micro. | ||
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