On April 23 2012 23:25 Crownlol wrote: Excited to see this level of open-mindedness.
The fact is, the split from SSBM and SSBB ruined the smash community, and Source really hurt CS.
The quicker pros join the game that more people want to watch (thus monetizing it), the better.
I know you've been playing BW for 12 years, but the more open-minded the BW community is about switching to the newer, more popular game, the better.
Open-minded? Almost all BW players have tried SC2 at some point. There's certain things in BW that just made alot of sense imo. Designers probably never envisioned BW as a top-level competitive game, but it turned out that way. To completely ignore some of the things that made BW great makes SC2 really really hard for a lot of BW fans to accept. I mean yes, micro is there, macro is there. But you don't see defilers coming out at the last second to cast swarm to deny an area, nor do you see reaver harassment, or any sorts of equivalent. I'm really tired of this argument too. I'd just wish SC2 would change >.>
I would regard mmortal speed prism drops pretty much filling that role, not being entirely equivalent but filling some kind of similiar role. The new viper will be filling a close enough role of what the defiler had. Obviously you don't know shit. T_T
Having played both games a fair bit, I can tell you that immortal drops are nothing close to reaver harass. First of all immortals aren't AOE units, secondly warp prisms aren't nearly as essential as shuttles are in any P match-up. Plus you don't load and unload between shots for immortals like you do with reaver/shuttle. Nor do you see the type of loading/unloading + pulling shuttle back micro with immortal/warp prism in battles.
Well you should see this video, it shows some amazing micro, along with well i dont think some of the clips are the best micro every but...
Ok, I don't mean this in an insulting manner but if you think that is anything (the IMMORTAL drop at 18) spectacular whatsoever you obviously haven't followed Broodwar and my opinion of SC2 is even lower. The rest wasn't bad , though the only one where I actually was impressed was the marine splitting.. I'll go see if I can find something on youtube for you that is actually amazing micro...alright, this vid. It isn't exactly showcasing micro and is more of "omg Bisu is amazing", but it is far more exciting use of shuttle play.
Here is a vid that is actual amazing micro. Please remember that mines do not take priority and must be individually targeted before they plant and are cloaked or attack you and you die. You'll notice Bisu only uses the exact amount of dragoons to target the mines and has the rest target the enemy army...all before the dragoon attack cooldown cycles.
Get back to me in 10 years when sc2 pro gamers have broken the game down so much that they can do these kinds of things too.
I believe BW is a better game than sc2 right now. It's more competetive and mroe fun. But to compare micro 12 years into the BW pro scene to 1 year into the sc2 pro scene is ridiculous. Lets see you pull out some 2002 micro highlights from BW and we can then have a real discussion.
Micro is only a function of mechanics, of which all the top SC2 players have them because they were former BW players. Anything that was learned about mechanics/micro/macro is directly transferable to SC2. But if you must, and I don't have time to look for it since I have class soon, look for anything of boxer (in his prime, which as a reminder to SC2 folks was like 2000-2003). He rose to fame off of his amazing micro and helped turn Broodwar into the popular game it is. It's also a reason why he was dethroned after the macro game was discovered and mechanics to do both was achieved.
Even if that wasn't the case and your statement was valid, why would I want to watch a game that isn't developed, then? If I had to choose between Broodwar from 2002 or broodwar today, I would pick today. How about we switch to SC2 in 10 years?. There is no guarantee that SC2 will develop beyond what it is now. I'm sure it will, but I don't think it will come close to what Broodwar has. I hope it does, though, since it seems that it's taking over.
I mean ultimately, the complaint is this: why would I watch SC2, when everything that's done in SC2 is either something that's already been done by BW or is just flat out outdone by BW mechanics and skill? T_T
Your kidding me, do you really think that is what sc2 still is? Turtle on 2 base, get deathball, and "get lucky" and win? lol that is so false I can't even -_-. I understand you hate sc2, but at least try to come up with something true and not that false information. 2 base deathballs disappeared like a year or so ago.
If the deathball solution have already been disappeared from the face of the earth this discussion on b.net wouldn't happen in the first place .
It's just sad that terran has become so passive in TvX match up in sc2 . Supply before racks .... No more proxy racks I guess going to watch this and than think about sc2 fans talking about them being all over the places . So let's see...
Edit : the only time I saw proxy racks was Forgg against some random scrub on stream ..
@Cailhead
I don't see the point of you posting such a long essay but I have to say that no one is going to read that long post and I just glance through it and you compared to being analog and that ? Sorry but I don't have to go so deep in to bw mechanics to bring up such analogies . If you played bw yourself you will understand the difficulty it takes to control unit and yet having to control your resources and management at the same time .
Better players will be able to do all this easily and players who are weak in terms of mechanics will have bad macro although if their micro is superior in broodwar they maybe able to delay that weakness and make a come back . Although maybe is because when players like Flash who is superior in terms of macro and he has the resources to do so . No matter how valiant you are at blocking his pushes and lock down he will break you down if you can compete with him in terms of macro .
Also about bw fans watching bw and not sc2 it's because we find bw a much more interesting game to spectate than to watch sc2 . Personally speaking I really hated sc2 because of the graphics and when I was at Lan testing out the game at silver league . I had frequent problems adjusting my self to sc2 and instead of me enjoying the game I was comparing sc2 to bw all the time ......
On April 25 2012 04:18 Zergneedsfood wrote: I mean ultimately, the complaint is this: why would I watch SC2, when everything that's done in SC2 is either something that's already been done by BW or is just flat out outdone by BW mechanics and skill? T_T
in short:
why playing SC2 when BW is better?
i'm just joking, i think that SC2 can be a good game in the future, if Blizzard will make the right decision
Your kidding me, do you really think that is what sc2 still is? Turtle on 2 base, get deathball, and "get lucky" and win? lol that is so false I can't even -_-. I understand you hate sc2, but at least try to come up with something true and not that false information. 2 base deathballs disappeared like a year or so ago.
If the deathball solution have already been disappeared from the face of the earth this discussion on b.net wouldn't happen in the first place .
It's just sad that terran has become so passive in TvX match up in sc2 . Supply before racks .... No more proxy racks I guess going to watch this and than think about sc2 fans talking about them being all over the places .
The reason why death ball exists is because in some situations the death ball is the OPTIMAL solution in SC2, rather or not that's good for the game is your own personal interpretation, but there rarely ever exists a death ball situation in BW where 1A-ing (well I say 1A, more like 1A2A3A4A as well as 3-5 other groups of units that aren't bound to a key) is the optimal solution to an engagement after you spread out a concave.
btw guys in that little SC2 "micro" video u posted is stuff form this micro bot thingy. and set up stuff. so yeah sick micro.
not actually, only one example was made with a bot with the map editor (the one of the drop tanks vs raoches and ultralisk) and the other ones are real examples of micro of real games, i saw some of those games in a MLG or GSL
Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
btw guys in that little SC2 "micro" video u posted is stuff form this micro bot thingy. and set up stuff. so yeah sick micro.
not actually, only one example was made with a bot with the map editor (the one of the drop tanks vs raoches and ultralisk) and the other ones are real examples of micro of real games, i saw some of those games in a MLG or GSL
u mean like a 47min replay. 1 base and not even a mined out base? yeah totally real. not saying there is no micro in SC2 but if u need 2 add this stuff in a "micro highlight" video. it makes u think a little bit.
Your kidding me, do you really think that is what sc2 still is? Turtle on 2 base, get deathball, and "get lucky" and win? lol that is so false I can't even -_-. I understand you hate sc2, but at least try to come up with something true and not that false information. 2 base deathballs disappeared like a year or so ago.
If the deathball solution have already been disappeared from the face of the earth this discussion on b.net wouldn't happen in the first place .
It's just sad that terran has become so passive in TvX match up in sc2 . Supply before racks .... No more proxy racks I guess going to watch this and than think about sc2 fans talking about them being all over the places .
The reason why death ball exists is because in some situations the death ball is the OPTIMAL solution in SC2, rather or not that's good for the game is your own personal interpretation, but there rarely ever exists a death ball situation in BW where 1A-ing (well I say 1A, more like 1A2A3A4A as well as 3-5 other groups of units that aren't bound to a key) is the optimal solution to an engagement after you spread out a concave.
Yes, but at least watching deathballs in BW is fun.
And you're not very informed if you don't think there aren't deathballs in BW that can just 1A through everything. The term originated because there was that deathball army of Archons/Dark Archons/Reavers. Then you had the 3-3 Terran mech deathball that happens all the time. And then you have a Zerg that's expanded out of control and has deathballs every five minutes.
This has happened plenty of times in BW, even recently. Not sure why you're saying there's "rarely" a death ball situation.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
I think it's kind of sad for SC2 when you have to "figure out" how to beat a Protoss that's just 1Aing into you.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
Your kidding me, do you really think that is what sc2 still is? Turtle on 2 base, get deathball, and "get lucky" and win? lol that is so false I can't even -_-. I understand you hate sc2, but at least try to come up with something true and not that false information. 2 base deathballs disappeared like a year or so ago.
If the deathball solution have already been disappeared from the face of the earth this discussion on b.net wouldn't happen in the first place .
It's just sad that terran has become so passive in TvX match up in sc2 . Supply before racks .... No more proxy racks I guess going to watch this and than think about sc2 fans talking about them being all over the places .
The reason why death ball exists is because in some situations the death ball is the OPTIMAL solution in SC2, rather or not that's good for the game is your own personal interpretation, but there rarely ever exists a death ball situation in BW where 1A-ing (well I say 1A, more like 1A2A3A4A as well as 3-5 other groups of units that aren't bound to a key) is the optimal solution to an engagement after you spread out a concave.
Yes, but at least watching deathballs in BW is fun.
And you're not very informed if you don't think there aren't deathballs in BW that can just 1A through everything. The term originated because there was that deathball army of Archons/Dark Archons/Reavers. Then you had the 3-3 Terran mech deathball that happens all the time. And then you have a Zerg that's expanded out of control and has deathballs every five minutes.
This has happened plenty of times in BW, even recently. Not sure why you're saying there's "rarely" a death ball situation.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
I think it's kind of sad for SC2 when you have to "figure out" how to beat a Protoss that's just 1Aing into you.
A death ball situation where 1Aing is the optimal solution in BW? Give me one example where this specific instance is true. So called death ball situations in BW you still get rewarded substantially for microing because you are given the ability to due to pacing of the game. In alot of situations 1Aing in SC2 is literally the optimal solution. A protoss in BW with archon / reaver / dark archon doesn't just 1A his units into a group.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
btw guys in that little SC2 "micro" video u posted is stuff form this micro bot thingy. and set up stuff. so yeah sick micro.
not actually, only one example was made with a bot with the map editor (the one of the drop tanks vs raoches and ultralisk) and the other ones are real examples of micro of real games, i saw some of those games in a MLG or GSL
u mean like a 47min replay. 1 base and not even a mined out base? yeah totally real. not saying there is no micro in SC2 but if u need 2 add this stuff in a "micro highlight" video. it makes u think a little bit.
what are you talking about? i just re-watched the video and there is nothing like 47min 1 basing... the nly thing the author should not have added is the bot thing and the hellion micro vs zerglings (the hellion drop was great but hellions vs zerglings is an easy thing to do)
i dont see anywhere the 47 min replay.. are we talking about the same video?
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
Wrong. End of story.
Give me a situation.
Bunch of tanks line are in the open and without spider mine you have a control group of zealot ? Ready go ! 1a2a3a4a
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
Wrong. End of story.
Give me a situation.
Bunch of tanks line are in the open and without spider mine you have a control group of zealot ? Ready go ! 1a2a3a4a
Even then you can micro the zealots to different tanks =_= that's not optimal
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
Wrong. End of story.
Give me a situation.
Bunch of tanks line are in the open and without spider mine you have a control group of zealot ? Ready go ! 1a2a3a4a
Even then you can micro the zealots to different tanks =_= that's not optimal
No I am serious Dude 1aing control group of zealots in to tanks is really optimal . It helps me knowing that terran will be busy trying to defend his tanks from dying and I can macro my gateways to make another wave of zealots and expoing at the same time .
Your kidding me, do you really think that is what sc2 still is? Turtle on 2 base, get deathball, and "get lucky" and win? lol that is so false I can't even -_-. I understand you hate sc2, but at least try to come up with something true and not that false information. 2 base deathballs disappeared like a year or so ago.
If the deathball solution have already been disappeared from the face of the earth this discussion on b.net wouldn't happen in the first place .
It's just sad that terran has become so passive in TvX match up in sc2 . Supply before racks .... No more proxy racks I guess going to watch this and than think about sc2 fans talking about them being all over the places .
The reason why death ball exists is because in some situations the death ball is the OPTIMAL solution in SC2, rather or not that's good for the game is your own personal interpretation, but there rarely ever exists a death ball situation in BW where 1A-ing (well I say 1A, more like 1A2A3A4A as well as 3-5 other groups of units that aren't bound to a key) is the optimal solution to an engagement after you spread out a concave.
Yes, but at least watching deathballs in BW is fun.
And you're not very informed if you don't think there aren't deathballs in BW that can just 1A through everything. The term originated because there was that deathball army of Archons/Dark Archons/Reavers. Then you had the 3-3 Terran mech deathball that happens all the time. And then you have a Zerg that's expanded out of control and has deathballs every five minutes.
This has happened plenty of times in BW, even recently. Not sure why you're saying there's "rarely" a death ball situation.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
I think it's kind of sad for SC2 when you have to "figure out" how to beat a Protoss that's just 1Aing into you.
I don't think you get what I mean by figuring out, figuring things out is in every single new game, including BW, at the start of every game people are gonna cry OP about something, and then a year later people laugh how someone could ever think of that.
BW has been figured out over 12 years. SC2 is still being figured out, currently on its 2nd year.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
Wrong. End of story.
Give me a situation.
Bunch of tanks line are in the open and without spider mine you have a control group of zealot ? Ready go ! 1a2a3a4a
Even then you can micro the zealots to different tanks =_= that's not optimal
Wait...yes it is. Pros do it all the time. Same thing with 1Aing your 3-3 mech ball through a protoss army. You 1a2a3a4a5a, go back to macro, and then come back to the battle.
At this point, all you're really saying is....the optimal situation in SC2 is for you to 1A through stuff because actual skill like separating your zealots to different units is pointless and dumb.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
Wrong. End of story.
Give me a situation.
Bunch of tanks line are in the open and without spider mine you have a control group of zealot ? Ready go ! 1a2a3a4a
Even then you can micro the zealots to different tanks =_= that's not optimal
No I am serious Dude 1aing control group of zealots in to tanks is really optimal . It helps me knowing that terran will be busy trying to defend his tanks from dying and I can macro my gateways to make another wave of zealots and expoing at the same time .
Your making too many assumptions in your scenario, I might as well say that it's optimal to 1A marines against drones when my marines are blocking the only exit of the drones, lol.
EPT
