On April 20 2012 23:45 S2Glow wrote: flash lol .. sc2 pros ? bw pros will come and pawn sc2 current pros sooner or later.
Like Hyun! Sure, he wasn't S-class, but he was still an A-teamer, top 30 on KeSPA rankings the month he switched, and leaps and bounds better at BW than any SC2 players were at time of switch.
And it shows! Look at all the success he's had in SC2! Sure, he's a mere 0-3 in the GSL/GSTL, but if you look at TLPD and include all his games in minor tournaments, he's an astounding 1-11.
Okay, so it was only one win. But it was against Revival, who's a terrifying 86th in Korean SC2 ELO rank! And even his losses were against....Commitment (113th)....Xy (not ranked)...Shine (112th).....oh, Taeja's good! Hyun lost to Taeja!
The organized power of the Kespa teams will have the current meta-game solved faster then anything you'll see from a lone wolf BW deserters . Eventually they will make their own meta game that the rest of the world will follow . It would be interesting to see how GSTL teams and Kespa teams will coexist and the rivalry between them .
Actually, there already may be slight metagame shifts from these BW progamers on the SC2 ladder.
Earlier last week, Artosis was rambling on in GSL about a new mid-game macro style in TvP that was being popularized by BW progamers on ladder. Basically, the Terran player would delay their tech and rely on sheer mechanics and macro to power up on Barracks and pump out a ton of units in the mid-game to pressure the Protoss while teching up behind this pressure. MVP used this build against a Protoss player in one of the group stages.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
this is hilarious. just goes to show you A) how good flash's macro is and B) how ez sc2 is.
Master's league = top 2% = top 2000 or so.
I mean, I'm sure Flash is good, but it's not like getting Masters is some huge achievement. Just being in Masters doesn't even qualify you to enter the GSL qualifiers. Yellow made it to Masters and he got humiliated by no-name amateurs in Project A.
Also, second the request for a Reddit translation
>_>
<_<
>_>
Masters without knowing jack all about a game is still pretty impressive. But honestly it isnt that surprising, Macro is pretty much the only thing you need to get to masters with anyways.
Getting to Masters in SC2 isn't hard. I got there after only a few weeks of half-assed laddering and minimal knowledge of builds/metagame. It's all macro and not making stupid decisions, which anyone who knows how to play BW at a non-horrible level can do.
That being said, this talk of change makes me sad. I've never been a BW fanatic but I've always enjoyed the pro scene and the game to me is still a lot more fun to play than SC2. Maybe the influx of new players and the expansions will help, but I'm not sold.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
this is hilarious. just goes to show you A) how good flash's macro is and B) how ez sc2 is.
Master's league = top 2% = top 2000 or so.
I mean, I'm sure Flash is good, but it's not like getting Masters is some huge achievement. Just being in Masters doesn't even qualify you to enter the GSL qualifiers. Yellow made it to Masters and he got humiliated by no-name amateurs in Project A.
Also, second the request for a Reddit translation
>_>
<_<
>_>
Masters without knowing jack all about a game is still pretty impressive. But honestly it isnt that surprising, Macro is pretty much the only thing you need to get to masters with anyways.
Getting to Masters in SC2 isn't hard. I got there after only a few weeks of half-assed laddering and minimal knowledge of builds/metagame. It's all macro and not making stupid decisions, which anyone who knows how to play BW at a non-horrible level can do.
That being said, this talk of change makes me sad. I've never been a BW fanatic but I've always enjoyed the pro scene and the game to me is still a lot more fun to play than SC2. Maybe the influx of new players and the expansions will help, but I'm not sold.
It's really sad how it was the foreign SC2 scene and the greed of korean businessmen that killed off BW. All you guys who was a part of BW and switched to SC2 and hyped up the new "e-sport", and lead the way, inspired by the BW scene. I hope you're happy now. I remember summer 2010 and all the heated talks about transitioning. Transitioning makes as little sense today.
I know that a lot of people are saying they'll just leave the scene when the switch comes, but could you find it in your heart to at least support the players?
Without fans, then players are just that = players with no one to watch. They won't be progamers. They'll just be regular players. If you really support BW, that means that you supported through the hardships and the joys that these progamers brought. I don't enjoy SC2 THAT much but I'm willing to stay as long as the players that have brought me joy are willing to play. So please find it in your heart to at least even begrudingly help the teams and the players. It's not just a simple: i'll leave. It means that your individual support is taken away and that really does impact the scene. The people here are the foreign Team Liquid fans that are willing to watch the OGN and Korean eSports Scene. Coaches and players acknowledge that you are here. So please at least consider the huge impact that you will have when you say that you are done with the scene. Everyone is hurt from it.
BW was what got me into ESports years ago, and even though I follow SC2 I still look back at BW (had the pleasure of watching the last proleage) with a smile
BW will always be there for me in my nostalgic heart and I choose to continue following the SC2 Scene.
Sc2 is still in it's infancy, 2 exspansions planned to come out and BW pros comming over? There is still SOOO much room for SC to grow and who knows, we may see SC2 one day reach the pure epicness that BW has been and I want to be there to experience the growth.
It's time to be brutal, BW is an amazing game, but everyone's best reason for SC2 being bad, is they are bored and it is easy? You mean because this new game has introduced millions of new players to an rts? How can you expect there would be hard games on ladder with the overwhelming amount of new players coming. Have you ever wondered or even tried to think that through? BW is awesome I love it, but I also love SC2 and seeing a dream of E-Sports climb to where it is now, I only wish CS had seen this much success. Let's remember we all sat on the outside watching Korea going, why not us? Well we are getting there now. Yes it might not be with BW, but hell as far as I am concerned I've had just as much fun in SC2 if not more as I did playing BW. BW is popular in Korea for one reason, its still sponsored by what little companies there will sponsor it, SC2 has a lot sponsors willing to develop this scene. This is a natural evolution, and with that will come an evolution of SC2. You expect players it will be difficult for someone who played BW at such a high level to do so poorly in SC2? Obviously not, and things are highly exaggerated, don't read into them, especially when it comes to Coaches. They do only one thing, rep there team and there players they are responsible for. Instead of just moaning and whining constantly, take a chance and play the game, and don't give me "I played it when it was in beta, it was easy and unbalanced." DUH, just take a chance. People are getting better, ladder is getting progressively harder, as well as the game play thats evolving as play gets more diverse. SC2 has a foundation to build upon, just as BW did. Take the time to actually play the game like you would a BW game. You might find it's fun.
If you want more proof of the evolution of SC2 go watch the more recent tournaments, games are longer, more fast paced, and a lot more entertaining then it was a year ago. Now that doesn't mean never play BW, it's still BW it is the legend. Just as 1.6 is a legend to me, but I still play both 1.6 and source.
Above all this enjoy the game. Now let's prepare for the trolls. Enjoy your day fellas!
In the end, I'm going to support the e-Sports scene except foreign BW. I gave up on trying to help out foreign BW scene after realizing that it was pretty much a lost cause (due to couple of reasons) plus the fact that foreign fan base has completely different mindset from those of Koreans and some will never understand what, how, and why BW became successful.
With few recent threads (BW vs SC2/afreeca incidents) as well as the responses that I've see in those threads, I started losing interest in doing something big for the foreign BW fans overall.
On April 21 2012 04:18 pStar wrote: It's pretty funny to see the broodwar fans pick what they want out of the article and the SC2 fans to pick the things that makes it good for them as well.
The one thing that I find annoying is that SC2 fans give BW huge support, any thread on reddit is upvoted, we try to post in hype threads here etc, as well as tuning in to games, (proleague finals by sayle were close to 6000 and I know alot of them were mainly SC2 players, from the chat anyway as well as from the 2 major communitiers). However when it comes to SC2, BW fans won;t even give it a chance. They dismiss it immediately and complain about it.
Why can't we all just get along and support each other.
1 is killing the other. I'm sure sc2 fans would be very supportive if the whole scene switched back to bw lol.
I'm not sure how sc2 is killing bw in Korea as bw has still a large fanbase compared to those who follow sc2. As far as international scene is concerned the bw forum doesn't care about foreign bw/sc2 as it is too "nooby" in their eyes.
In case you haven't heard, they are switching to sc2 because of its foreign popularity.
That may be true, but it seemed bw was on the decline since the savior incident. They have nowadays really trouble finding sponsors for team8, osl, etc. And it is not because those are sponsoring korean sc2 teams. I feel like this is more of a last chance to revive the korean esports scene by including sc2. Well, this is all speculation and we never know how starcraft would have developed if the sequel didn't came out. I just find it hard to believe that sc2 killed the professional korean bw scene.
Not doubt it was declining but without sc2 they wouldn't end bw altogether and they certainly wouldn't switch just off the popularity of the game in korea.
Without SC2 brood war would still die anyways. LoL would totally take over that scene. (more than it already is... /WRISTS)
LoL could have all the online viewers they want , they will never generate a live crowd bigger then what BW's were , SC2 probably won't either , but lets see if KESPA can work some magic . Both games aren't as interesting to watch to the casual korean , but SC 2 has the potential . LoL has nothing in common to Starcraft and just like dota and the countless other games that came before LoL didn't replace BW LoL wouldn't have either .
Lack of sponsors killed BW , because of unfortunate events not some shiny new games . If SC2 gets at anything as close to what BW was it's prime LoL couldn't hold a candle to it in Korea .
On April 21 2012 05:43 supernovamaniac wrote: In the end, I'm going to support the e-Sports scene except foreign BW. I gave up on trying to help out foreign BW scene after realizing that it was pretty much a lost cause (due to couple of reasons) plus the fact that foreign fan base has completely different mindset from those of Koreans and some will never understand what, how, and why BW became successful.
With few recent threads (BW vs SC2/afreeca incidents) as well as the responses that I've see in those threads, I started losing interest in doing something big for the foreign BW fans overall.
May i enquire as to what those few reasons were? I would like to know, via PM if you don;t feel comfortable posting here,
On April 21 2012 05:38 b0tchla wrote: It's time to be brutal, BW is an amazing game, but everyone's best reason for SC2 being bad, is they are bored and it is easy? You mean because this new game has introduced millions of new players to an rts? How can you expect there would be hard games on ladder with the overwhelming amount of new players coming. Have you ever wondered or even tried to think that through? BW is awesome I love it, but I also love SC2 and seeing a dream of E-Sports climb to where it is now, I only wish CS had seen this much success. Let's remember we all sat on the outside watching Korea going, why not us? Well we are getting there now. Yes it might not be with BW, but hell as far as I am concerned I've had just as much fun in SC2 if not more as I did playing BW. BW is popular in Korea for one reason, its still sponsored by what little companies there will sponsor it, SC2 has a lot sponsors willing to develop this scene. This is a natural evolution, and with that will come an evolution of SC2. You expect players it will be difficult for someone who played BW at such a high level to do so poorly in SC2? Obviously not, and things are highly exaggerated, don't read into them, especially when it comes to Coaches. They do only one thing, rep there team and there players they are responsible for. Instead of just moaning and whining constantly, take a chance and play the game, and don't give me "I played it when it was in beta, it was easy and unbalanced." DUH, just take a chance. People are getting better, ladder is getting progressively harder, as well as the game play thats evolving as play gets more diverse. SC2 has a foundation to build upon, just as BW did. Take the time to actually play the game like you would a BW game. You might find it's fun.
If you want more proof of the evolution of SC2 go watch the more recent tournaments, games are longer, more fast paced, and a lot more entertaining then it was a year ago. Now that doesn't mean never play BW, it's still BW it is the legend. Just as 1.6 is a legend to me, but I still play both 1.6 and source.
Above all this enjoy the game. Now let's prepare for the trolls. Enjoy your day fellas!
how come everytime someone is gonan be brutal its a guy with his first post?.
On April 21 2012 05:38 b0tchla wrote: It's time to be brutal, BW is an amazing game, but everyone's best reason for SC2 being bad, is they are bored and it is easy? You mean because this new game has introduced millions of new players to an rts? How can you expect there would be hard games on ladder with the overwhelming amount of new players coming. Have you ever wondered or even tried to think that through? BW is awesome I love it, but I also love SC2 and seeing a dream of E-Sports climb to where it is now, I only wish CS had seen this much success. Let's remember we all sat on the outside watching Korea going, why not us? Well we are getting there now. Yes it might not be with BW, but hell as far as I am concerned I've had just as much fun in SC2 if not more as I did playing BW. BW is popular in Korea for one reason, its still sponsored by what little companies there will sponsor it, SC2 has a lot sponsors willing to develop this scene. This is a natural evolution, and with that will come an evolution of SC2. You expect players it will be difficult for someone who played BW at such a high level to do so poorly in SC2? Obviously not, and things are highly exaggerated, don't read into them, especially when it comes to Coaches. They do only one thing, rep there team and there players they are responsible for. Instead of just moaning and whining constantly, take a chance and play the game, and don't give me "I played it when it was in beta, it was easy and unbalanced." DUH, just take a chance. People are getting better, ladder is getting progressively harder, as well as the game play thats evolving as play gets more diverse. SC2 has a foundation to build upon, just as BW did. Take the time to actually play the game like you would a BW game. You might find it's fun.
If you want more proof of the evolution of SC2 go watch the more recent tournaments, games are longer, more fast paced, and a lot more entertaining then it was a year ago. Now that doesn't mean never play BW, it's still BW it is the legend. Just as 1.6 is a legend to me, but I still play both 1.6 and source.
Above all this enjoy the game. Now let's prepare for the trolls. Enjoy your day fellas!
how come everytime someone is gonan be brutal its a guy with his first post?.
On April 21 2012 05:38 b0tchla wrote: It's time to be brutal, BW is an amazing game, but everyone's best reason for SC2 being bad, is they are bored and it is easy? You mean because this new game has introduced millions of new players to an rts? How can you expect there would be hard games on ladder with the overwhelming amount of new players coming. Have you ever wondered or even tried to think that through? BW is awesome I love it, but I also love SC2 and seeing a dream of E-Sports climb to where it is now, I only wish CS had seen this much success. Let's remember we all sat on the outside watching Korea going, why not us? Well we are getting there now. Yes it might not be with BW, but hell as far as I am concerned I've had just as much fun in SC2 if not more as I did playing BW. BW is popular in Korea for one reason, its still sponsored by what little companies there will sponsor it, SC2 has a lot sponsors willing to develop this scene. This is a natural evolution, and with that will come an evolution of SC2. You expect players it will be difficult for someone who played BW at such a high level to do so poorly in SC2? Obviously not, and things are highly exaggerated, don't read into them, especially when it comes to Coaches. They do only one thing, rep there team and there players they are responsible for. Instead of just moaning and whining constantly, take a chance and play the game, and don't give me "I played it when it was in beta, it was easy and unbalanced." DUH, just take a chance. People are getting better, ladder is getting progressively harder, as well as the game play thats evolving as play gets more diverse. SC2 has a foundation to build upon, just as BW did. Take the time to actually play the game like you would a BW game. You might find it's fun.
If you want more proof of the evolution of SC2 go watch the more recent tournaments, games are longer, more fast paced, and a lot more entertaining then it was a year ago. Now that doesn't mean never play BW, it's still BW it is the legend. Just as 1.6 is a legend to me, but I still play both 1.6 and source.
Above all this enjoy the game. Now let's prepare for the trolls. Enjoy your day fellas!
how come everytime someone is gonan be brutal its a guy with his first post?.
Because something pissed them off enough to stop lurking and actually create an account.
On April 21 2012 05:38 b0tchla wrote: It's time to be brutal, BW is an amazing game, but everyone's best reason for SC2 being bad, is they are bored and it is easy? You mean because this new game has introduced millions of new players to an rts? How can you expect there would be hard games on ladder with the overwhelming amount of new players coming. Have you ever wondered or even tried to think that through? BW is awesome I love it, but I also love SC2 and seeing a dream of E-Sports climb to where it is now, I only wish CS had seen this much success. Let's remember we all sat on the outside watching Korea going, why not us? Well we are getting there now. Yes it might not be with BW, but hell as far as I am concerned I've had just as much fun in SC2 if not more as I did playing BW. BW is popular in Korea for one reason, its still sponsored by what little companies there will sponsor it, SC2 has a lot sponsors willing to develop this scene. This is a natural evolution, and with that will come an evolution of SC2. You expect players it will be difficult for someone who played BW at such a high level to do so poorly in SC2? Obviously not, and things are highly exaggerated, don't read into them, especially when it comes to Coaches. They do only one thing, rep there team and there players they are responsible for. Instead of just moaning and whining constantly, take a chance and play the game, and don't give me "I played it when it was in beta, it was easy and unbalanced." DUH, just take a chance. People are getting better, ladder is getting progressively harder, as well as the game play thats evolving as play gets more diverse. SC2 has a foundation to build upon, just as BW did. Take the time to actually play the game like you would a BW game. You might find it's fun.
If you want more proof of the evolution of SC2 go watch the more recent tournaments, games are longer, more fast paced, and a lot more entertaining then it was a year ago. Now that doesn't mean never play BW, it's still BW it is the legend. Just as 1.6 is a legend to me, but I still play both 1.6 and source.
Above all this enjoy the game. Now let's prepare for the trolls. Enjoy your day fellas!
how come everytime someone is gonan be brutal its a guy with his first post?.
for fear of being banned on main account.
They can see if both accounts come from the same IP. They get more mad that you fill up server space with duplicate accounts i believe.
I think I'm one of the few people who can honestly say they see both sides being partially correct about the switch. I started watching professional BW before I even knew that it *was* professional in Korea. I scoured Manifesto7's site to find as many RWA (Replays with Audio) as I could because it was just so much fun to watch and listen to commentary on BW. Later I learned more and followed the Korean BW scene closely, just in time for the epic Flash vs Jaedong wars. I'm a Jaedong fan for life, so I'm still a little bit sad that Flash ended up winning in the end and Jaedong slumped just a little.
But I also found Tasteless commenting BW on GOMTV.net and fell in love with that, having English commentary on the game I loved was something I wanted more than anything. When the GOMTV Classics went away I felt like something had been taken from me. When he came back with Artosis to commentate Starcraft II, I was incredibly excited.
I remember the first few seasons of the GSL. The games were pretty sloppy. The map pool was terrible. I had fun, but I had to admit that the level of competition was just not where Brood War was. Still, it was new, and it was exciting.
Then Starcraft II exploded around the world, and I went from having not enough Starcraft (with English commentary, even!) to watch to having TOO MUCH to watch. I remember the point when I officially could not watch any more, and had to start picking and choosing tournaments to watch.
I still watched OSL and MSL (RIP) religiously during this time. I still love Jaedong forever. I gained a begrudging respect for Flash's amazing abilities. This season I decided I would watch Proleague consistently, and it was incredible. It felt bittersweet, knowing it was probably the last BW (turns out it was the last BW-only) season. The finals were incredible.
So here's the thing.
Both sides are right, but in different ways.
SC2 is not, right now, as wonderful a game as BW is right now.
But it has gotten a LOT better, and could get better still.
Some of the earliest problems were map-related. GOMTV to their eternal credit forced Blizzard to change this and get proper macro maps. It took a while, but there are some amazing SC2 maps now. The other problem was a lack of consistent skill and far too many players all-inning (especially Terran... remember Bit By Bit Prime?). This was fixed as players got better and the Bit By Bits fell out of the system.
The remainder of the issues, the clumping of units, the "deathball" problem, the "both players wait until maxed, clump armies together, fight, one army wins, that player wins the game" are still an issue, but I see this happening less and less. I think this is all due to the players getting better.
The other day I saw a SC2 TvZ that had multiple battles, all over the map, not just drops but engagements and pokes and counter-pokes and real strategy, and the better player started to win battles JUST SLIGHTLY because they were positioning units better and thinking better, and although it went back and forth the better player ended up winning.
Honestly, it felt like a game of BW.
Sadly, the next game in the series was a quick deathball push. So I don't think SC2 is quite there yet.
With luck, the HOTS expansion and the influx of a huge number of really skilled BW professional players will raise the level of the game back to where it was in BW. This would be the best possible outcome I think.
But I can understand the coaches being a little bit sad that BW won't carry on its epic legacy somehow. It's a bit sad that BW is being forced into retirement sooner than it should be.
TL;DR: Both sides are right. BW is still a better game to watch, right now. But SC2 has the potential to be as good. It's still sad that we are all forced to choose rather than being able to keep both.
On April 21 2012 05:43 supernovamaniac wrote: In the end, I'm going to support the e-Sports scene except foreign BW. I gave up on trying to help out foreign BW scene after realizing that it was pretty much a lost cause (due to couple of reasons) plus the fact that foreign fan base has completely different mindset from those of Koreans and some will never understand what, how, and why BW became successful.
With few recent threads (BW vs SC2/afreeca incidents) as well as the responses that I've see in those threads, I started losing interest in doing something big for the foreign BW fans overall.
May i enquire as to what those few reasons were? I would like to know, via PM if you don;t feel comfortable posting here,
On April 20 2012 22:28 blubbdavid wrote: That's it for me.
Oh come on, it's for e-sports man we should support them bw pro's going to sc2 as you can see even the coaches were having a blast talking about sc2 . I mean I don't mind seeing history repeat itself when this guy dominate the scene and the foreign scene will know where their standing is again after all . Korean dominance sound pretty sweet in my opinion.
k, but only if I get monthly packages of Redbull so that I stay awake during the games.
A message for all BWers that dont seem to get it - SC2 IS VANILLA! SC2 IS VANILLA! SC2 IS VANILLA! I know you have the right to be pissed but i cannot not to respond to such terrible statement that sc2 is boring. How can you compare a game with datadisc and one without it?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3KQIt.gif)
