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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
High SPL winrates, 1 Gold plus 2 Semis in SL. In 10/11 Season (including SLs): 1-0 Bisu 1-0 ZerO 3-2 Stork 4-0 JangBi (albeit only 1 is post-slump JB) 4-3 Jaedong His Terran, eh, beating Light is impressive at least. 2-0 Light 0-2 Sea 1-5 Fantasy 1-5 Flash | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
I wouldn't consider him S-class, but his play this last year has definitely been high A level, especially vP and vZ. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On November 30 2011 08:08 Mortality wrote: What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch. Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players. | ||
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
On November 30 2011 12:59 baubo wrote: Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players. uh http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/274_Shinhan09-10_Proleague/player_stats 4th place http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/274_Shinhan09-10_Proleague/player_stats 8th place http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/410_Shinhan_2010_Winners_League/player_stats 6th place http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/794_SWL_2011/player_stats 5th place not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong, but really fucking good and consistent. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:06 Ideas wrote: not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong, but really fucking good and consistent. Isn't that kind of the point? That he's not at the top? And simply a level below the best? Hence why I used the word "lack of domination". Bisu, Flash, Jaedong all have that sense of domination factor going for them. And while newer BW fans may feel Stork isn't really all that, there was a point when Stork was invincible everywhere but the finals. That's what I feel a S-Class player is. Someone who could just go in and wipe the floor with any other player. Effort sort of had this aura too at his peak. Fantasy? I don't feel that. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On November 30 2011 12:59 baubo wrote: What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch. S-class isn't something you hand out like candy. Only 1-2 players a generation are truly S-class, and right now we're lucky that we had TBLS (although Stork has a lot to prove; I don't consider him S-class anymore, if ever). I don't think Fantasy is S-class, and saying "obviously" doesn't add any veracity to your opinion. Since 11.1 '09 he has a 61.57% win-rate, 141 wins, 88 losses. Is Hydra S-class? He has a 60% win-rate with a gold medal in that time frame. "You don't fluke your way into that." S-class players? Flash, Jaedong, Bisu. Flash is obvious so I'll save myself the time of looking up his stats. Bisu's won 68% of his games since 11.1 '09. Jaedong? 68.7%. The gap between that and 61.5% is ginormous; it's larger than the gap between Fantasy and free (54% in the same period of time). (Stork, by the way, is only at 58%.) On November 30 2011 13:06 Ideas wrote: not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong Yes, that's the point. imo: S-class (~65% win-rate): Flash, Jaedong, Bisu A-class (55-65% win-rate): Fantasy, Stork, Hydra, EffOrt, Sea, ZerO, Leta, Light, Stats, Neo.G_Soulkey Good, but inconsistent, players (50-55%): Jangbi, Calm, Kal, free, BaBy, Shuttle, BeSt, HiyA, Snow, Movie, Mind Potential A-class players: Killer, Horang2, Bogus, BaBy The fact that so few up-and-coming players can be projected to become A-class shows that being A-class is great honor, not an indictment. There's nothing wrong with classifying Fantasy, Stork, Hydra, ZerO or EffOrt as A-class, because that makes them one of the 15 best players in the world. Elite talent in SC is very rare. S-class is the best of the best, across any generation. Possessing a 65% win-rate is a nearly impossible task... but as well it should be. Just winning half of your games is a tremendously difficult feat. Let's try not to hype up our favorite players, placing them a level above where they should be just because we're emotionally attached to them. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:34 baubo wrote: Isn't that kind of the point? That he's not at the top? And simply a level below the best? Hence why I used the word "lack of domination". Bisu, Flash, Jaedong all have that sense of domination factor going for them. And while newer BW fans may feel Stork isn't really all that, there was a point when Stork was invincible everywhere but the finals. That's what I feel a S-Class player is. Someone who could just go in and wipe the floor with any other player. Effort sort of had this aura too at his peak. Fantasy? I don't feel that. im not saying he's S-class, but people always say fantasy sucks at PL when really he's consistently one of the best players in PL. | ||
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telamascope
United States310 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:17 Ideas wrote: im not saying he's S-class, but people always say fantasy sucks at PL when really he's consistently one of the best players in PL. He played pretty poorly for an OSL winner in 2010-2011 SPL. 20 wins and 19 losses is not that great. Here's a list of players with better win percentages last PL having played around 30 games:  Jaehoon 23 -12 n.Die_soO 19 - 10ggaemo 20 - 18 firebathero 18 - 13Tyson 18 - 15Shuttle 18 - 13 | ||
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:42 telamascope wrote: He played pretty poorly for an OSL winner in 2010-2011 SPL. 20 wins and 19 losses is not that great. Here's a list of players with better win percentages last PL having played around 30 games: Jaehoon 23 -12n.Die_soO 19 - 10ggaemo 20 - 18firebathero 18 - 13Tyson 18 - 15Shuttle 18 - 13but he did finish 5th in winner's league, around the time he won the OSL. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:46 KamMoye wrote: S-class isn't something you hand out like candy. Only 1-2 players a generation are truly S-class, and right now we're lucky that we had TBLS (although Stork has a lot to prove; I don't consider him S-class anymore, if ever). I don't know how by any criteria can you make this bolded statement. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
It's healthy to talk about statistics but at the end of the day being S-class is all about who you beat, what the games look like, and the ability to secure the wins that matter most. When the tournament brackets get put up, there are the guys you wonder why they're there, the guys who you think are gonna drop out early but you at least know why they're there, the guys who might go halfway with luck but are going to fall in the end, and then there are the guys who are going to cut deep in and possibly win it all. That last category is the S-class. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On November 30 2011 17:50 KamMoye wrote: dunno how arbitrary it is when only 3 players this generation have >60% win rate There is, just over periods and not over their entire career | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
Personally, i think S-class is something you "feel". It has been said before, but i agree with the sentiment that an S-class player is someone that instills fear in you when he sits on the opposite booth from you favourite player in an important match. (save some random cursed relationship (like Shine T_T)..) That said, i also agree that only 3 players currently fits the word "S-class".. Some others are close (Fanta, Zero, among others), and some has been there for a long time (Stork, but he needs to show the same level of play he did beginning of last season to get back in), but i don't feel that they are there yet (im sure Stork will stomp some faces and get back in a Flash though). | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
#1: Flash S class: Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy A+class: Hydra, Stork, EffOrt, ZerO, Jangbi A class: Leta, Sea, Light, Stats, Neo.G_Soulkey, BaBy, BeSt, Bogus A- class: Movie, Snow, Horang2, Killer, Mind, Firebathero, Soo, Calm, Kal | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
He just retired for a LONG time, had 2 games since coming back = 1 average ZvZ and a good ZvT vs Iris.. Sure he played well and won, but i don't think that puts him up there yet.. People stay Stork has a lot to prove? At least he established some absolute domination at the beginning of last season (up till that OSL Finals), and have been fighting on even ground with TLS throughout the course of the year... EffOrt, on the other hand... | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On November 30 2011 21:38 Fenrax wrote: Currently I would rank S and A class players like this: #1: Flash S class: Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy A+class: Hydra, Stork, EffOrt, ZerO, Jangbi A class: Leta, Sea, Light, Stats, Neo.G_Soulkey, BaBy, BeSt, Bogus A- class: Movie, Snow, Horang2, Killer, Mind, Firebathero, Soo, Calm, Kal I'd consider swap BeSt and Horang2. They both beat Jaedong in their most recent game in 2011, so you can't hype that too much and forget BeSt's rather large deficiencies in that matchup. Horang2 is quite competent in all three matchups, which is key for a high ranking. Kal needs to drop, since the end of last season was quite poor for him (almost as bad as Free). Calm? Maybe? Clam has been making in awful lot of appearances. Effort sorta still needs to prove himself since he's played 2 games in over 400 days. I think Effort can be considered that high if he keeps it up through this month. Likewise JangBi could elevate to S-Class. We haven't seen him PvP in a while, and although he spanked Soo in the OSL, he couldn't handle Woongjin Zerg in the playoffs. I hope he can prove himself in all 3 matchups. | ||
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