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On March 20 2012 23:33 Dental Floss wrote:
Speaking of temporary momentum Action should be on the list somewhere. He was supposed to be the hardest working programer back on eSTRO and now that he has a real coaching staff/practice partners (no offense eSTRO fans) he is being pretty clutch.
Yes he does well in the playoffs.. But i believe those 3 games shouldn't be able to overwrite his horrendous regular reason performance enough to push him into the PR. A shoutout if you wanna give him some encouragement, but a PR spot ...
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Its hard for me to defend Action's regular season especially now that TLPD BW is no longer updated 
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On March 20 2012 22:00 4vvhiplash7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 21:56 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:On March 20 2012 21:45 Rhaegar_tar wrote:
What is Fantasy's score this season?
And has he ever faced Flash? 13-2, and not this season, according to TLPD. And if he did face Flash I'm sure it would be 13-3
Unless he offraced as Protoss
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Unless I'm mistaken, next weekend is the offline prelims for OSL and April 7 is the PL GF. I'm actually starting to think it would be better for the ranking to happen before next weekend, since this will mean that all players will get a chance to play between this upcoming ranking and the ranking that follows. Otherwise you have plenty of games for this rank, but the next rank will suffer from having ONLY the actual OSL tournament unless we wait all the way until... Late May???!!!
I'm going to assume the ranking will still only happen AFTER the GF, but now that OSL is on, I just don't think that's necessary.
Currently, my top 6 remain the same:
1. Flash - in spite of dropping 3 games to Protoss, he is looking ridiculously scary. His invincibility aura has been broken, but he's still the best Starcraft player in the world.
2. Fantasy - just don't bother arguing
3. Stork - since I last wrote he went 2-1, dropping a game against Stats due to a combination of BO disadvantage and a tactical mistake (the pylon he placed to disrupt Stats's movements ended up disrupting his own), but he promptly earned revenge in the rematch. He's looking very well rounded, but just not quite on the level of either guy ahead of him.
4. Leta - has gone 1-2 since I last wrote. His loss to Hoejja dropped him from #3 TvZ by ELO to #4 (behind Flash, Light and Fantasy), but he still looks stunning there, with recent wins over SK and JD and an impressive win rate. I'm a biiiiiit concerned by his TvP. In his first match against Stats he was completely out-classed. His harassment was excellent, but Stats had a perfect defense to counter it and so the game boiled down to timing, where Stats was light years ahead, from the early goon harass to the main push (omfg the storms!), where I personally think Leta botched the timing by moving too soon. But in the rematch, OMG THE MINES!!! What it boils down to is that Leta is a bit too dependent on his harassment and needs to beef up his TvP fundamentals.
5. Soulkey - I'm not going to go through the SK vs Jaedong argument again, except to say that I think Soulkey is more well-rounded at the moment and more consistent.
6. Jaedong - When he brings it he looks awesome, but when he doesn't bring it... well, we've seen a few definite fail moments out of him this season. Jaedong is somewhat hurt by the fact that he simply hasn't brought it against Terran this season, simply getting rolled by competent TvZ play. Netizens who give JD the benefit of the doubt and point out (correctly) that the sample is only 5 games don't seem to remember how long ago last season was. Usually I'm telling people not to think too short term, but when last season was 8 months ago I just can't consider any of that data as valid, except for considering trends, which is not what's going on.
After that the murkiness sets in. Candidates I think deserve attention:
Hoejja - The hero of the playoffs. Who would have though that Hoejja's role would be even more critical than Flash's to getting KT to the GF? Check it out: Hydra isn't doing all that great this season, but eliminating him on Outlier where he is 6-3 (counting this game) is a big deal. Also taking Effort AND Leta out of CJ's line-up?! And then beating Shine might not mean *too much* but it was the game that capped off the series against Khan. I think Hoejja has earned a place on the ranking, although exactly where is a tough question.
Crazy-Hydra - I'm not sold on his ZvT even though he is 1-1 against S-class players, partly because his win over Light was on Outlier in a retarded game that he could not possibly lose, but he looks quite solid vs Z and P both. Still, I think the 7 game win streak he wracked up has left him a bit over rated. I though that Grape did a nice job exposing some holes in Crazy-Hydra's play. CBNC at the least, but an actual ranking is questionable.
Soo - Comparable to Crazy-Hydra in terms of having a mammoth win streak that on paper makes him a solid pick, but again I'm just not fully seeing it, this time even less so. Soo is a player whose ZvP seems to produce wicked results whenever Hydra bursts are in vogue and pathetic results when the Protoss timing adjusts to make the old Hydra burst timing irrelevant. Like Crazy-Hydra, he also has a retarded win over Light, in which he won with... a Hydra bust! Ironically they could face each other in the Finals. I don't really think there's a rivalry between Fanta/Bisu and Flash/Stats even though some comparisons can certainly be made, but I think that in a twisted sort of way there is definitely a Soo vs Crazy-Hydra rivalry going on right now.
Stats - His recent record... hasn't been that good. By my count, he's 5-6 since the start of R3, so why am I even mentioning him? Because I think his play has been really good, on the whole. Well, this may be a tough sell, but I'd easily pick Stats as the better player over someone like Crazy-Hydra or Soo who has a lot more momentum at the moment. Mainly I just think that Stats has been placed in a harder role and looked better. Not saying he should be ranked, but a good win over a stronger SKT player (assuming the ranking waits) like Fantasy or Bisu would make you almost HAVE to rank him. I'm seeing in Stats right now something kind of like what I saw in Zero around Dec 2010, back when he was known as being good, but hadn't broken out yet. Stats has obviously received a lot more attention and hype than Zero did prior to breaking out, and I think that's starting to play against him since fans are now falling into either the "Stats <3" camp or the "bleh, over rated" camp. If Stats ever has his time, I think it will be now.
(speaking of Zero, he seems to be starting to find his footing again, although I'm not going to give him any more mention than that)
Bisu - Only 2-2 since the last ranking, so a bit hard to judge. SKT has this tendency NOT to have Fanta and Bisu both at the front of their line-up. Sometimes that bites them in the ass, but in R3 it seems to have worked just fine. On the whole I'm a little underwhelmed by Bisu this season and if the ranking comes out before the GF I'd be inclined to say to leave him off.
Dear - The player everyone seems to have picked as the next bonjwa. Breaking Flash's win streak was a big deal, but TBH I found Horang2's win more meaningful and Dear simply does not have any other accomplishment to his name. As I've said before, I wouldn't throw a tantrum if he made it on, but I kind of hope he is left with CBNC or Shout Out at most. Before we talk about Dear on the ranking we should talk about Horang2 on the ranking. But I don't really think Horang2 deserves to be ranked right now either.
Calm - On paper calm is a ZvP sniper right now, but I think that compared to someone like Soo or Crazy-Hydra he has more depth. All season long he has faced a respectable line-up and gone unnoticed, mainly because he lacks any of the really high profile wins or win streaks other players have achieved, but that's probably not fair. With Bogus and Last both fading, I'm not sure even Flash could have picked up the slack for STX.
Best - I saved the Best for last. Ahahahaha... no, really. Best is 5-1 since the last ranking, with his only loss to Flash doing an all-in. Best is really the player who took SKT to the #1 spot, and for that I think he deserves to be ranked.
Tentatively,
7. Best
8. Hoejja
9. Crazy-Hydra
10. Stats
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I think your last 3 places are biased by KT playoff results. This is exactly what everyone was expecting to happen when power rank was not released right after R3. Although Hoejja 5 win streak including some wins against vsZ specialists like Leta Effort and Hydra looks solid this is still only ZvZ and 1 ZvT on Outlier. If you look at these achivements its similar to Dear with good results in one matchup and Soo or CH wins vs T on Outlier that looks great on paper. Hoejja games are fresh, Dear's are so distant now the same with Last or Bisu. All of them was competing for last spots with CH, Soo and maybe Stats Dear, CH, Soo and now Hoejja are group with good record but also a lot to prove while Bisu and Stats are group who used to play better than now but are still solid and are favourites against most of players. Last is somewhere between these 2 groups. Its unfair that deciding factor is long time since last game. Its really hard to judge now.
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I don't see the problem with the ranking being "biased by KT playoff results". Actually they're not biased at all. Hoejja and Crazy-Hydra could secure a spot in the top 10 which they deserve (imo) and Stats takes a dive because he simply didn't maintain his previous form.
Of course the playoffs influence the ranking. I, too, would have liked to have a ranking right before the playoffs but, given that there wasn't one, the PO games have to be taken into account. Calling this "biased" which has a clearly derogatory annotation is weird.
And about the comparison with Dear etc: I think one has to consider that a) playoff games are more important to the team than regular season games and b) it's a question of performing well under pressure, against high caliber opponents. Dear didn't (hasn't been given the opportunity to) prove that he can, so Hoejja should get preference over him.
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Hoejja worked his way on due to the PO. Crazy-Hydra was on just about everybody's rank BEFORE the PO. Stats is debatable and only added tentatively. I could just as easily have put Calm or even Bisu in that position.
Last went 2-2 in R3, but more importantly is 2-4 in his last 6. He is not someone I would consider ranking even if the PO did not happen. A CBNC could be argued, but not an actual PR position.
Bisu I also talked about. The fact that he only played 4 games in R3 is working against him, but it wouldn't really have helped him to have the ranking released at the end of R3. Bisu is in the position right now that when he wins it looks really solid, but when he loses it looks really ugly, which makes it even harder for you to rate him. If you judge by his best moments of course you will give him a high rating, but if you judge by his worst moments you cannot even consider him for the ranking. That really does not have anything to do with his games being distant.
I've talked about Dear's record for the entire season before. Other than his win vs Flash, he has not done anything significant. A string of easy wins doesn't show me that he's a strong PvT sniper. I'm not trying to diminish the attention to detail it took to devise the strategy to counter Flash, but if we're just talking that, Flash has lost twice more since then.
Hoejja's ZvT win vs Leta should not be compared to Soo or CH. It was a much better game that actually showed what both players are capable of.
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On March 26 2012 10:47 Mortality wrote:
Hoejja worked his way on due to the PO. Crazy-Hydra was on just about everybody's rank BEFORE the PO. Stats is debatable and only added tentatively. I could just as easily have put Calm or even Bisu in that position.
Last went 2-2 in R3, but more importantly is 2-4 in his last 6. He is not someone I would consider ranking even if the PO did not happen. A CBNC could be argued, but not an actual PR position.
Bisu I also talked about. The fact that he only played 4 games in R3 is working against him, but it wouldn't really have helped him to have the ranking released at the end of R3. Bisu is in the position right now that when he wins it looks really solid, but when he loses it looks really ugly, which makes it even harder for you to rate him. If you judge by his best moments of course you will give him a high rating, but if you judge by his worst moments you cannot even consider him for the ranking. That really does not have anything to do with his games being distant.
I've talked about Dear's record for the entire season before. Other than his win vs Flash, he has not done anything significant. A string of easy wins doesn't show me that he's a strong PvT sniper. I'm not trying to diminish the attention to detail it took to devise the strategy to counter Flash, but if we're just talking that, Flash has lost twice more since then.
Hoejja's ZvT win vs Leta should not be compared to Soo or CH. It was a much better game that actually showed what both players are capable of.
I concur with this statement presumably the reference is to Hoejja and Leta.
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United States10302 Posts
HOEJJA #1!!! TOO CLUTCH IN PLAYOFFS!
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On March 26 2012 08:55 Mortality wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unless I'm mistaken, next weekend is the offline prelims for OSL and April 7 is the PL GF. I'm actually starting to think it would be better for the ranking to happen before next weekend, since this will mean that all players will get a chance to play between this upcoming ranking and the ranking that follows. Otherwise you have plenty of games for this rank, but the next rank will suffer from having ONLY the actual OSL tournament unless we wait all the way until... Late May???!!!
I'm going to assume the ranking will still only happen AFTER the GF, but now that OSL is on, I just don't think that's necessary.
Currently, my top 6 remain the same:
1. Flash - in spite of dropping 3 games to Protoss, he is looking ridiculously scary. His invincibility aura has been broken, but he's still the best Starcraft player in the world.
2. Fantasy - just don't bother arguing
3. Stork - since I last wrote he went 2-1, dropping a game against Stats due to a combination of BO disadvantage and a tactical mistake (the pylon he placed to disrupt Stats's movements ended up disrupting his own), but he promptly earned revenge in the rematch. He's looking very well rounded, but just not quite on the level of either guy ahead of him.
4. Leta - has gone 1-2 since I last wrote. His loss to Hoejja dropped him from #3 TvZ by ELO to #4 (behind Flash, Light and Fantasy), but he still looks stunning there, with recent wins over SK and JD and an impressive win rate. I'm a biiiiiit concerned by his TvP. In his first match against Stats he was completely out-classed. His harassment was excellent, but Stats had a perfect defense to counter it and so the game boiled down to timing, where Stats was light years ahead, from the early goon harass to the main push (omfg the storms!), where I personally think Leta botched the timing by moving too soon. But in the rematch, OMG THE MINES!!! What it boils down to is that Leta is a bit too dependent on his harassment and needs to beef up his TvP fundamentals.
5. Soulkey - I'm not going to go through the SK vs Jaedong argument again, except to say that I think Soulkey is more well-rounded at the moment and more consistent.
6. Jaedong - When he brings it he looks awesome, but when he doesn't bring it... well, we've seen a few definite fail moments out of him this season. Jaedong is somewhat hurt by the fact that he simply hasn't brought it against Terran this season, simply getting rolled by competent TvZ play. Netizens who give JD the benefit of the doubt and point out (correctly) that the sample is only 5 games don't seem to remember how long ago last season was. Usually I'm telling people not to think too short term, but when last season was 8 months ago I just can't consider any of that data as valid, except for considering trends, which is not what's going on.
After that the murkiness sets in. Candidates I think deserve attention:
Hoejja - The hero of the playoffs. Who would have though that Hoejja's role would be even more critical than Flash's to getting KT to the GF? Check it out: Hydra isn't doing all that great this season, but eliminating him on Outlier where he is 6-3 (counting this game) is a big deal. Also taking Effort AND Leta out of CJ's line-up?! And then beating Shine might not mean *too much* but it was the game that capped off the series against Khan. I think Hoejja has earned a place on the ranking, although exactly where is a tough question.
Crazy-Hydra - I'm not sold on his ZvT even though he is 1-1 against S-class players, partly because his win over Light was on Outlier in a retarded game that he could not possibly lose, but he looks quite solid vs Z and P both. Still, I think the 7 game win streak he wracked up has left him a bit over rated. I though that Grape did a nice job exposing some holes in Crazy-Hydra's play. CBNC at the least, but an actual ranking is questionable.
Soo - Comparable to Crazy-Hydra in terms of having a mammoth win streak that on paper makes him a solid pick, but again I'm just not fully seeing it, this time even less so. Soo is a player whose ZvP seems to produce wicked results whenever Hydra bursts are in vogue and pathetic results when the Protoss timing adjusts to make the old Hydra burst timing irrelevant. Like Crazy-Hydra, he also has a retarded win over Light, in which he won with... a Hydra bust! Ironically they could face each other in the Finals. I don't really think there's a rivalry between Fanta/Bisu and Flash/Stats even though some comparisons can certainly be made, but I think that in a twisted sort of way there is definitely a Soo vs Crazy-Hydra rivalry going on right now.
Stats - His recent record... hasn't been that good. By my count, he's 5-6 since the start of R3, so why am I even mentioning him? Because I think his play has been really good, on the whole. Well, this may be a tough sell, but I'd easily pick Stats as the better player over someone like Crazy-Hydra or Soo who has a lot more momentum at the moment. Mainly I just think that Stats has been placed in a harder role and looked better. Not saying he should be ranked, but a good win over a stronger SKT player (assuming the ranking waits) like Fantasy or Bisu would make you almost HAVE to rank him. I'm seeing in Stats right now something kind of like what I saw in Zero around Dec 2010, back when he was known as being good, but hadn't broken out yet. Stats has obviously received a lot more attention and hype than Zero did prior to breaking out, and I think that's starting to play against him since fans are now falling into either the "Stats <3" camp or the "bleh, over rated" camp. If Stats ever has his time, I think it will be now.
(speaking of Zero, he seems to be starting to find his footing again, although I'm not going to give him any more mention than that)
Bisu - Only 2-2 since the last ranking, so a bit hard to judge. SKT has this tendency NOT to have Fanta and Bisu both at the front of their line-up. Sometimes that bites them in the ass, but in R3 it seems to have worked just fine. On the whole I'm a little underwhelmed by Bisu this season and if the ranking comes out before the GF I'd be inclined to say to leave him off.
Dear - The player everyone seems to have picked as the next bonjwa. Breaking Flash's win streak was a big deal, but TBH I found Horang2's win more meaningful and Dear simply does not have any other accomplishment to his name. As I've said before, I wouldn't throw a tantrum if he made it on, but I kind of hope he is left with CBNC or Shout Out at most. Before we talk about Dear on the ranking we should talk about Horang2 on the ranking. But I don't really think Horang2 deserves to be ranked right now either.
Calm - On paper calm is a ZvP sniper right now, but I think that compared to someone like Soo or Crazy-Hydra he has more depth. All season long he has faced a respectable line-up and gone unnoticed, mainly because he lacks any of the really high profile wins or win streaks other players have achieved, but that's probably not fair. With Bogus and Last both fading, I'm not sure even Flash could have picked up the slack for STX.
Best - I saved the Best for last. Ahahahaha... no, really. Best is 5-1 since the last ranking, with his only loss to Flash doing an all-in. Best is really the player who took SKT to the #1 spot, and for that I think he deserves to be ranked.
Tentatively,
7. Best
8. Hoejja
9. Crazy-Hydra
10. Stats
One of the few times I'll have to disagree with PR bonjwa Mortality.
1-5: I completely agree.
Now 6... no disrespect to Jaedong, one of my favorite players, but winning vs Soulkey and losing vs Leta (and winning over a bunch of scrubs) in the past 2 months does not, a number 6 ranking make. In the normal course of things, maybe. If T8 still had a playoff chance and were playing serious opponents, sure. But in the context of things, it was simply too little too late. Jaedong mostly carried T8 this season but he's been extremely mediocre vs really good players, especially Terran. I mean, in his game vs Leta... (at around 9:05 of the VOD), 6 Hydras and 2 lings + Overlord get owned by 3 vultures, one nearly dead at that... I'm not sure that's an impressive show of skill. Not even on Leta's part. JD just walking into those mines like he was ggaemo. He wasn't even expanding behind that or anything. And then the mutas vs goliaths.
Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Now Hoejja. We're getting somewhere. Sure, he's gotten more chances than the others to play because of the playoffs, but unlike Wooki, he's taken full advantage of it. I mean, how much better do you have to play to get recognized? Amazing win vs Leta with monster plagues: Check. Outmaneuvering Hydra in the latter's best matchup: Check. Outmicroing Effort, current CJ ace player: Check. Destroying Roro and Shine, Khan's main zerg line with solid ZvZ play. Roro is not a pushover - he's SOLID. Shine is... Shine. Which means he's pretty good, and a fucking cheeser, but he wins and has really good micro. The case for Hoejja is ROCK solid. It's based on both results and actual skill shown during the games. It would be a travesty not to place him right after the top 5. He might not have the historical consistency of everyone else, but he is the definition of CLUTCH (still remember last season's finals).
Next up... how about Horang2? Results say he's pretty mediocre, but they were wins against Flash (in a pretty straight up game I might add!), Kal, and Stats. He's usually the player in CJ who faces enemy aces and does really well. Even in his losses he had a chance to win. I think he's shown enough to warrant a spot in the top 10, being the only CJ player aside from Leta not to choke (hey, he was tasked to fight Flash during the playoffs - going 1-1 is not choking).
Why no love for Action? The kid, while playing pretty badly for 80% of the season, stepped up his game heading into the playoffs. Double kill on Effort (after losing to him during the season). Taking out Sea, Turn, and Snow, some of the more aggressive players in BW with really good early/mid game defense. Sure he lost to Shine, and his vP looks shaky, but he's definitely shown the potential KT saw in him when they drafted him. Now you might say that I'm being a hypocrite because I'm not taking the context into account (i.e. Action's subpar season). But if you look at the specific context of the games he won, and won well, he was being clutch and stepping up his game even more. In that span of time, he shored up on his weakness and because really solid for KT. ZvZ? That's an early-game matchup! And yet Action did quite well there. It speaks much of his continued improvement.
So my ranking 6-10 is:
6. Hoejja
7. Horang2
8. Jaedong
9. Action
10. Stats (I agree with what you say about Stats, except that Hoejja has shown even better play recently).
CBNC:
Best
Bisu (T_T)
CH
Canata (woohoo!)
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ZvT stats on neo outlier are now 4-0. I know Leta's game was only one worth watching but still Hoejja had significant map advantage. Not sending terrans on this map confirms that fact (22games, 24Z, 16P, 4T). CJ zergs form in playoff was just ugly. Even in Hydra vs Wooki game I had impression that Hydra won it only because his advantage was too big to screw this up that much. That makes Hoejja wins against Effort and Hydra less spectacular. By saying that you are biased by playoff matches I dont say you shouldnt count them in PR. But these are only matches in last two weeks so you overrate them.
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On March 26 2012 12:02 dobrzeee wrote:
ZvT stats on neo outlier are now 4-0. I know Leta's game was only one worth watching but still Hoejja had significant map advantage. Not sending terrans on this map confirms that fact (22games, 24Z, 16P, 4T). CJ zergs form in playoff was just ugly. Even in Hydra vs Wooki game I had impression that Hydra won it only because his advantage was too big to screw this up that much. That makes Hoejja wins against Effort and Hydra less spectacular. By saying that you are biased by playoff matches I dont say you shouldnt count them in PR. But these are only matches in last two weeks so you overrate them.
Yeah but then we go too far back into the past, reaching for some measure of skill that doesn't really exist for the rest of the BW players. We can't maintain the status quo for their sake just because they didn't reach the playoffs.
The Leta game, even taking it into context, was a really good display of skill. Ok let's count map-imbalance. Still, Leta's skill is supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>> than Hoejja's. Leta is CJ's Terran ace (and is their best player right now). Leta has been spectacular all season long. Hoejja was looking for his form the whole season long. He found it, played really well, and as a result, defeated Leta in an amazing game. He also should get credit vs Effort and Hydra because even assuming you're correct, that the CJ zergs' play in the playoffs were ugly, it does not detract from Hoejja's show of skill, both mechanical in terms of his micro, and mental in terms of being clutch and making the right decisions.
I don't think "opponent sucks" is a very powerful argument. It could be, if the player who won equally sucked or didn't dominate as expected (like in Jaedong's case) or nearly threw away the games. But that's not the case here. Hoejja played really well. And in the absence of other players having the opportunity to showcase their skill, that's the ranking you have to make. Tough decisions all around. And no "benefit of the doubt" available, even to players like Bisu and Jaedong, because of their inconsistent play in both wins and losses (Bisu win over FBH was pretty ugly).
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Bisutopia19306 Posts
I think at this point if KT wins it all we just KT as a whole in the #1 spot for PR. And if SKT wins then all Bisu of course.
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United States7639 Posts
On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote:
Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What?
He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu.
I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
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On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 08:55 Mortality wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unless I'm mistaken, next weekend is the offline prelims for OSL and April 7 is the PL GF. I'm actually starting to think it would be better for the ranking to happen before next weekend, since this will mean that all players will get a chance to play between this upcoming ranking and the ranking that follows. Otherwise you have plenty of games for this rank, but the next rank will suffer from having ONLY the actual OSL tournament unless we wait all the way until... Late May???!!!
I'm going to assume the ranking will still only happen AFTER the GF, but now that OSL is on, I just don't think that's necessary.
Currently, my top 6 remain the same:
1. Flash - in spite of dropping 3 games to Protoss, he is looking ridiculously scary. His invincibility aura has been broken, but he's still the best Starcraft player in the world.
2. Fantasy - just don't bother arguing
3. Stork - since I last wrote he went 2-1, dropping a game against Stats due to a combination of BO disadvantage and a tactical mistake (the pylon he placed to disrupt Stats's movements ended up disrupting his own), but he promptly earned revenge in the rematch. He's looking very well rounded, but just not quite on the level of either guy ahead of him.
4. Leta - has gone 1-2 since I last wrote. His loss to Hoejja dropped him from #3 TvZ by ELO to #4 (behind Flash, Light and Fantasy), but he still looks stunning there, with recent wins over SK and JD and an impressive win rate. I'm a biiiiiit concerned by his TvP. In his first match against Stats he was completely out-classed. His harassment was excellent, but Stats had a perfect defense to counter it and so the game boiled down to timing, where Stats was light years ahead, from the early goon harass to the main push (omfg the storms!), where I personally think Leta botched the timing by moving too soon. But in the rematch, OMG THE MINES!!! What it boils down to is that Leta is a bit too dependent on his harassment and needs to beef up his TvP fundamentals.
5. Soulkey - I'm not going to go through the SK vs Jaedong argument again, except to say that I think Soulkey is more well-rounded at the moment and more consistent.
6. Jaedong - When he brings it he looks awesome, but when he doesn't bring it... well, we've seen a few definite fail moments out of him this season. Jaedong is somewhat hurt by the fact that he simply hasn't brought it against Terran this season, simply getting rolled by competent TvZ play. Netizens who give JD the benefit of the doubt and point out (correctly) that the sample is only 5 games don't seem to remember how long ago last season was. Usually I'm telling people not to think too short term, but when last season was 8 months ago I just can't consider any of that data as valid, except for considering trends, which is not what's going on.
After that the murkiness sets in. Candidates I think deserve attention:
Hoejja - The hero of the playoffs. Who would have though that Hoejja's role would be even more critical than Flash's to getting KT to the GF? Check it out: Hydra isn't doing all that great this season, but eliminating him on Outlier where he is 6-3 (counting this game) is a big deal. Also taking Effort AND Leta out of CJ's line-up?! And then beating Shine might not mean *too much* but it was the game that capped off the series against Khan. I think Hoejja has earned a place on the ranking, although exactly where is a tough question.
Crazy-Hydra - I'm not sold on his ZvT even though he is 1-1 against S-class players, partly because his win over Light was on Outlier in a retarded game that he could not possibly lose, but he looks quite solid vs Z and P both. Still, I think the 7 game win streak he wracked up has left him a bit over rated. I though that Grape did a nice job exposing some holes in Crazy-Hydra's play. CBNC at the least, but an actual ranking is questionable.
Soo - Comparable to Crazy-Hydra in terms of having a mammoth win streak that on paper makes him a solid pick, but again I'm just not fully seeing it, this time even less so. Soo is a player whose ZvP seems to produce wicked results whenever Hydra bursts are in vogue and pathetic results when the Protoss timing adjusts to make the old Hydra burst timing irrelevant. Like Crazy-Hydra, he also has a retarded win over Light, in which he won with... a Hydra bust! Ironically they could face each other in the Finals. I don't really think there's a rivalry between Fanta/Bisu and Flash/Stats even though some comparisons can certainly be made, but I think that in a twisted sort of way there is definitely a Soo vs Crazy-Hydra rivalry going on right now.
Stats - His recent record... hasn't been that good. By my count, he's 5-6 since the start of R3, so why am I even mentioning him? Because I think his play has been really good, on the whole. Well, this may be a tough sell, but I'd easily pick Stats as the better player over someone like Crazy-Hydra or Soo who has a lot more momentum at the moment. Mainly I just think that Stats has been placed in a harder role and looked better. Not saying he should be ranked, but a good win over a stronger SKT player (assuming the ranking waits) like Fantasy or Bisu would make you almost HAVE to rank him. I'm seeing in Stats right now something kind of like what I saw in Zero around Dec 2010, back when he was known as being good, but hadn't broken out yet. Stats has obviously received a lot more attention and hype than Zero did prior to breaking out, and I think that's starting to play against him since fans are now falling into either the "Stats <3" camp or the "bleh, over rated" camp. If Stats ever has his time, I think it will be now.
(speaking of Zero, he seems to be starting to find his footing again, although I'm not going to give him any more mention than that)
Bisu - Only 2-2 since the last ranking, so a bit hard to judge. SKT has this tendency NOT to have Fanta and Bisu both at the front of their line-up. Sometimes that bites them in the ass, but in R3 it seems to have worked just fine. On the whole I'm a little underwhelmed by Bisu this season and if the ranking comes out before the GF I'd be inclined to say to leave him off.
Dear - The player everyone seems to have picked as the next bonjwa. Breaking Flash's win streak was a big deal, but TBH I found Horang2's win more meaningful and Dear simply does not have any other accomplishment to his name. As I've said before, I wouldn't throw a tantrum if he made it on, but I kind of hope he is left with CBNC or Shout Out at most. Before we talk about Dear on the ranking we should talk about Horang2 on the ranking. But I don't really think Horang2 deserves to be ranked right now either.
Calm - On paper calm is a ZvP sniper right now, but I think that compared to someone like Soo or Crazy-Hydra he has more depth. All season long he has faced a respectable line-up and gone unnoticed, mainly because he lacks any of the really high profile wins or win streaks other players have achieved, but that's probably not fair. With Bogus and Last both fading, I'm not sure even Flash could have picked up the slack for STX.
Best - I saved the Best for last. Ahahahaha... no, really. Best is 5-1 since the last ranking, with his only loss to Flash doing an all-in. Best is really the player who took SKT to the #1 spot, and for that I think he deserves to be ranked.
Tentatively,
7. Best
8. Hoejja
9. Crazy-Hydra
10. Stats One of the few times I'll have to disagree with PR bonjwa Mortality. 1-5: I completely agree. Now 6... no disrespect to Jaedong, one of my favorite players, but winning vs Soulkey and losing vs Leta (and winning over a bunch of scrubs) in the past 2 months does not, a number 6 ranking make. In the normal course of things, maybe. If T8 still had a playoff chance and were playing serious opponents, sure. But in the context of things, it was simply too little too late. Jaedong mostly carried T8 this season but he's been extremely mediocre vs really good players, especially Terran. I mean, in his game vs Leta... (at around 9:05 of the VOD), 6 Hydras and 2 lings + Overlord get owned by 3 vultures, one nearly dead at that... I'm not sure that's an impressive show of skill. Not even on Leta's part. JD just walking into those mines like he was ggaemo. He wasn't even expanding behind that or anything. And then the mutas vs goliaths. Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking. Now Hoejja. We're getting somewhere. Sure, he's gotten more chances than the others to play because of the playoffs, but unlike Wooki, he's taken full advantage of it. I mean, how much better do you have to play to get recognized? Amazing win vs Leta with monster plagues: Check. Outmaneuvering Hydra in the latter's best matchup: Check. Outmicroing Effort, current CJ ace player: Check. Destroying Roro and Shine, Khan's main zerg line with solid ZvZ play. Roro is not a pushover - he's SOLID. Shine is... Shine. Which means he's pretty good, and a fucking cheeser, but he wins and has really good micro. The case for Hoejja is ROCK solid. It's based on both results and actual skill shown during the games. It would be a travesty not to place him right after the top 5. He might not have the historical consistency of everyone else, but he is the definition of CLUTCH (still remember last season's finals). Next up... how about Horang2? Results say he's pretty mediocre, but they were wins against Flash (in a pretty straight up game I might add!), Kal, and Stats. He's usually the player in CJ who faces enemy aces and does really well. Even in his losses he had a chance to win. I think he's shown enough to warrant a spot in the top 10, being the only CJ player aside from Leta not to choke (hey, he was tasked to fight Flash during the playoffs - going 1-1 is not choking). Why no love for Action? The kid, while playing pretty badly for 80% of the season, stepped up his game heading into the playoffs. Double kill on Effort (after losing to him during the season). Taking out Sea, Turn, and Snow, some of the more aggressive players in BW with really good early/mid game defense. Sure he lost to Shine, and his vP looks shaky, but he's definitely shown the potential KT saw in him when they drafted him. Now you might say that I'm being a hypocrite because I'm not taking the context into account (i.e. Action's subpar season). But if you look at the specific context of the games he won, and won well, he was being clutch and stepping up his game even more. In that span of time, he shored up on his weakness and because really solid for KT. ZvZ? That's an early-game matchup! And yet Action did quite well there. It speaks much of his continued improvement. So my ranking 6-10 is: 6. Hoejja 7. Horang2 8. Jaedong 9. Action 10. Stats (I agree with what you say about Stats, except that Hoejja has shown even better play recently). CBNC: Best Bisu (T_T) CH Canata (woohoo!)
People accuse me all the time of being stubborn and... worse things because I am not fond of poorly thought out opinions.
But it's this kind of post that you made that makes me rethink my opinion. Your points are very good, if a bit daring.
I'm still inclined to have JD as my #6 pick. I'm almost tempted to cave and say, "You're right," because yeah, I know what you're saying about him. A lot of his faults this season people try to justify with silly excuses, e.g. that the game against Flying actually shows how great he is that he could win in spite of such a huge mistake (actually, it shows how BAD Flying's unit mix was -- seriously, pure zeal/archon against a lurker based defense?!), or that the game against Canata was a build nobody has ever seen before and therefore could not be countered (didn't a certain ex-teammate of Canata *cough* Fantasy *cough* popularize this strategy 3 years ago? JD lost because he decided to face Canata's valks head on with his mutas before his scourge could get there WHILE Canata was marching his army to JD's 3rd base... extremely bad decision making). But at the same time, I have to realize that there have been some absolutely BRILLIANT moments from JD as well. His second game against Modesty just blew my mind. Modesty was just thoroughly out-classed. I'm concerned about the state of JD's ZvT and concerned that his decision making and mechanics are looking sloppy. Another example from that game against Flying was when Flying dropped JD's 5th base and we saw in FPview how JD was defending... and it looked awful. But right now his ZvZ is indisputably best in the world, his ZvP is probably top 3 with Soulkey and Calm, and even though his ZvT is no longer up to par, it's not something I'd take lightly. I really can't see him as anything other than the #2 overall Zerg threat.
With Jaedong, how "powerful" he is right now depends on which Jaedong shows up. Is it the Tyrant? Or is it the kid who got his head cut off by Rock all those years ago?
But, I like the daring to rank Horang2 and Action. In fact, yeah, Horang2 and Action, based on games played, maybe deserve it more than Best and Crazy-Hydra. Although, the same argument about coming off a loss streak that you criticize Best with could also be used to criticize either of those guys. But, in the same respect, if you look at who they played, then Action has faced a pretty brutal ZvP line-up, an almost as tough ZvZ line-up, and he's crushed a fairly weak ZvT line-up, so I think that says a lot about him as a player since he's come out of it 8-7 in total. And very important in all of this is that he's looked good. Horang2 is actually a bit tougher to sell since I think he's dropped a few he shouldn't have and a few of his wins I'd expect. Even Kal, that you mention, hasn't been so hot lately (okay, 4-3 PvP, but 6-9 overall with only 2 wins in his last 10 games). But I think what's important here is how he's look while playing and the role he's taking in CJ's line-up.
On March 26 2012 12:02 dobrzeee wrote:
ZvT stats on neo outlier are now 4-0. I know Leta's game was only one worth watching but still Hoejja had significant map advantage. Not sending terrans on this map confirms that fact (22games, 24Z, 16P, 4T). CJ zergs form in playoff was just ugly. Even in Hydra vs Wooki game I had impression that Hydra won it only because his advantage was too big to screw this up that much. That makes Hoejja wins against Effort and Hydra less spectacular. By saying that you are biased by playoff matches I dont say you shouldnt count them in PR. But these are only matches in last two weeks so you overrate them.
Leta is 1-1 overall on Outlier counting both versions of the map, which aren't all that different. And yes, the map is bad for Terran, but it's not unplayable. It was Hoejja's outstanding defiler usage that cinched it.
And you're belittling his wins over Effort and Hydra. In his game against Effort he had a scouting advantage, performed an excellent tactic that left Effort trapped in his base and blind, and then took a calculated risk to strengthen his economy, that Effort didn't capitalize on because unlike us watching the game via commentators, Effort was forced to play blind. The game against Hydra was a very well-timed, well-coordinated attack. The greatest risk that you have to face in that kind of situation is that you don't want to get too impatient with your air based on having the early gas advantage, but because Hydra expanded he couldn't wait too long. His timing was correct and his scourge were more effective.
On March 26 2012 12:16 BisuDagger wrote:
I think at this point if KT wins it all we just KT as a whole in the #1 spot for PR. And if SKT wins then all Fantasy of course.
Fixed.
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On March 26 2012 14:15 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote:
Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What? He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu. I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
He's talking about R3 when he says that, not this season. Shy, Dear, Reality and Tyson aren't exactly the toughest opponents.
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On March 26 2012 14:15 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote:
Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What? He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu. I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
Best's traditionally strong match up which is vT has not been anything spectacular this season, I agree that he was the underdog going into games vs top zergs, but he definitely wasn't the underdog going into games vs most of his non zerg opponents. He deserves alot of praise for his sudden improvements in vZ, if only he would regain his vT prowess (not to mention he displayed some great vP play too vs shy) then his PR spot wouldn't be disputed.
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Best deserves 7th spot almost everyone agreed with that before playoffs. I dont see the reason why he would be lower than some hot players that came out of nowhere when he didnt get chance to play. And also if you want to place Hoejja in PR that much he should be lower than CH who didnt play that well in the playoffs and his play in regular season wasnt that spectacular even though his results look good, but he should be rewarded for being consistent.
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On March 26 2012 14:15 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote:
Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What? He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu. I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
Wasn't undermining his achievements this season, which have been mind-blowing in terms of his PvZ. But the PR involves "recent" (especially given the limited amount of games right now) momentum, force, results, and an eclectic/indefinable mix of them all which somehow leads to a hierarchy of power. And his recent show of "power" has been quite flat these past few games.
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EPT
