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On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote:
Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin'
JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent
Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage.
Just sayin'
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On March 14 2012 02:55 VGhost wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 21:59 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 21:12 Mortality wrote:
SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details.
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves. When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing. He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won. Neo.G_Soulkey is 3-3 since the last PR, and 12-6 by my count overall this season. His games in order this period: W vs Shuttle. Shuttle is 0-3 this season, but has only played 3 games - God only knows why, as he was probably STX's best Protoss last year and Dear and mini aren't that good. His three losses are to Jangbi, sHy, and Soulkey, so you can't tell anything one way or the other from them. Verdict: Expected win. W vs Bisu. Speaks for itself. Verdict: good win. L vs Flash. Completely expected. Verdict: good loss. L vs Leta. Leta is 5-1 vs Zerg this season; his only loss is to ZerO and he's 1-1 vs ZerO on the season. His other wins are Jaedong, Crazy-Hydra, and s2. Also he's Leta, #3 TvZ ELO. Verdict: good loss. L vs Jaedong. Jaedong is 5-1 JvZ on the season; his sole loss is to EffOrt. Verdict: good loss.+ Show Spoiler +
W vs TurN. TurN's a good, but not a solid player and TvZ is his worst matchup. But he has beaten Hydra this season. Verdict: Expected win.
By my count, Soulkey's beaten the players he should (Shuttle and TurN), lost to the players he should (Flash, Leta, and Jaedong), and won one game in a significant upset (vs. Bisu). With no one else being particularly spectacular of the players currently below him, he certainly shouldn't drop much. If he falls any lower than #5, there should be some raised eyebrows
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Soulkey had BO win/advantage. Bad Loss. ZvZ is volatile, i don't know why people keep disregarding things like BO. Even at 80% win rate, JvZ had volatility, only Calm capitalized on it.
JD has not been spectacular as of late, and the same can be said about soulkey.
Is it better to lose to great opponents or to win against average opponents?
This time, i would say to win is better because soulkey didn't do anything to put up a fight against his opponents that he lost to. To me, JD is 3-1 (only ZvZ where he went against BO loss/disadvantage counts) and soulkey is 2-2.
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I think SK should be put above JD. I will not explain why, nor will I try to make analysis of their games.
It is not because, lol, SK beat Bisu, or JD lost to Leta. I think SK has much to prove and this fuels his ambitions. JD is just an old skilled and experienced player.
The hunger for victory and recognition will always prevail.
(However, I still haven't seen from SK JD-style macro mechanics and multitasking)
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Soo is also not doing hydra busts in the dark. He deny probe scout and do some scouting by himself. But as I said earlier I dont think these games are that meaningful. Especially when someone have wide open entrance just asking for a runby. And I wont change my mind only because it is Bisu who as we know like to mix moments of brilliance with 'wtf what is he doing'.
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On March 14 2012 13:36 Mortality wrote:
People read what they want to read apparently. Nobody is dissing Jaedong for doing a 5 pool, okay? What we are saying is that the game in question doesn't show much because it's a BLIND all-in build with lucky positions that hard counters what his opponent did.
And there is a HUGE difference between a 5 pool and a timed all-in or a proxy rax. I find it hard to believe that people on this forum do not understand that difference.
A failed timed all-in is pretty much game over.
A proxy rax against builds like 9 pool will just lose the game.
I don't even know why you think JD has anything to prove in ZvT, fact is Canata used a completely random build that no one expected.
His lost against leta is bad sure letting your hydras change targets isn't really something that should happen but in SK's game did you even realise that SK managed to get serveral lings through the marine vulture wall, one of which he just left at the natural? I don't know what happened maybe he had a brainfart and decided to macro instead of scout.
I don't even know why everyone is making a big deal out of the SK vs Bisu game, Bisu screwed up and SK took advantage of it.
I'm not saying SK should be taken out of the rankings( thats stupid) but the ranking is stupid because JD is being punished for being the Tyrant.
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I'm not saying SK should be taken out of the rankings( thats stupid) but the ranking is stupid because JD is being punished for being the Tyrant.
Pretty much this, lol. The amount of double standards in this thread is getting silly.
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On March 14 2012 19:12 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:36 Mortality wrote:
People read what they want to read apparently. Nobody is dissing Jaedong for doing a 5 pool, okay? What we are saying is that the game in question doesn't show much because it's a BLIND all-in build with lucky positions that hard counters what his opponent did.
And there is a HUGE difference between a 5 pool and a timed all-in or a proxy rax. I find it hard to believe that people on this forum do not understand that difference. A failed timed all-in is pretty much game over. A proxy rax against builds like 9 pool will just lose the game. I don't even know why you think JD has anything to prove in ZvT, fact is Canata used a completely random build that no one expected. His lost against leta is bad sure letting your hydras change targets isn't really something that should happen but in SK's game did you even realise that SK managed to get serveral lings through the marine vulture wall, one of which he just left at the natural? I don't know what happened maybe he had a brainfart and decided to macro instead of scout. I don't even know why everyone is making a big deal out of the SK vs Bisu game, Bisu screwed up and SK took advantage of it. I'm not saying SK should be taken out of the rankings( thats stupid) but the ranking is stupid because JD is being punished for being the Tyrant.
A timed all-in requires that you scout your opponent and understand what he is doing. How you can say that's the same thing as a blind all-in is beyond me.
Did Flash even do a proxy rax vs Zerg at all? I'm not sure of the relevance of this remark.
Canata's build wasn't nearly so special as you are acting. It's just a variant of the Valkyrie+bionic strategy we've seen before. Fantasy used a similar strategy in his game vs Calm, but switched away from valks when he saw Calm was going for a ground break. The game was won because JD made a BIG mistake by trading his 3rd base just to kill 3 of Canata's valks. He should have pulled his mutas back from Canata's base and brought his scourge up to help. He didn't lose to a magic build. He lost due to bad decision making.
The Leta games were both one-sided. I'm not sure why we're even talking about them.
Even if you dismiss the game vs Bisu, SK STILL has a stronger record vs Protoss. His opponents were harder.
What I'm wondering is why you think JD is being punished so badly. I am suggesting: 1. Flash, 2. Fantasy, 3. Stork, 4. Leta, 5. SK, 6. Jaedong.
So apparently since I'm punishing JD for being the Tyrant, then you think he should be ranked 2 or 3 or something? :/
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On March 14 2012 14:03 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote:
Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin' JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin'
there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic
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On March 15 2012 00:21 whatusername wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 14:03 jidolboy wrote:On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote:
Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin' JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin' there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic
I dont understand what you are trying to say. Just because Zerg do not have any unorthodox opening means they have to 5 pool???
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On March 15 2012 00:52 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 00:21 whatusername wrote:On March 14 2012 14:03 jidolboy wrote:On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote:
Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin' JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin' there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic I dont understand what you are trying to say. Just because Terran have so many options means that they have to proxy rax???
Fixed
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On March 15 2012 00:52 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 00:21 whatusername wrote:On March 14 2012 14:03 jidolboy wrote:On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote:
Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin' JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin' there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic I dont understand what you are trying to say. Just because Zerg do not have any unorthodox opening means they have to 5 pool???
No... only that the comparison is a little bit unfair because early rax is never as all in as early pool.
I wonder if Ver could make a power rank some time. I would love to read that because I feel that no one of us who are posting in this thread really understands what is going on when the pros are playing. At least we can count their wins, I guess...
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Wow I just realized playoffs don't end till the 7th of April... That's kind of far away.
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How about a pre finals rank then?  
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TBH, there should be a pre-play offs power rank. Woongjin, stx, t8, ace will get 'diluted' in the power ranks IMO.
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Maybe, but then there won't be any new data for those players on a post-PO ranking.
SK and JD wouldn't really be hurt if the next ranking waits until after the PO. Arguably Last, Calm, Dear etc. could be hurt, but none of them are guaranteed a spot even right now.
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On March 16 2012 02:57 Mortality wrote:
Maybe, but then there won't be any new data for those players on a post-PO ranking.
SK and JD wouldn't really be hurt if the next ranking waits until after the PO. Arguably Last, Calm, Dear etc. could be hurt, but none of them are guaranteed a spot even right now.
Everyone can be effected, both positively or negatively. If Stork and/or Leta falter badly in the playoffs, SK and Jaedong can easily move up. On the flip side, if someone like Crazy-Hydra or Turn go on an insane playoff streak(say 5-1 or 4-0 records) he would probably get into the top 5 and bump these guys lower.
Are they likely to be affected? Probably not. But it's not unreasonable to see both players getting higher or lower ranking come post-PO.
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WHERE. IS. POWER. RANK. UPDATE.
факинг щит!
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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EPT
