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baubo
China3370 Posts
On March 12 2012 23:03 Iplaythings wrote: Read the interview, he said it was a prepared strategy It's only "prepared" in the sense that he felt it's a good counter to Flash's macro cheese. Given how Flash loves to double-expand off of almost nothing on maps with easy 3rds, it's not surprising that players will think about how to react to such a build. If Flash had played standard, M18M would've surely followed suit. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:45 baubo wrote: It's only "prepared" in the sense that he felt it's a good counter to Flash's macro cheese. Given how Flash loves to double-expand off of almost nothing on maps with easy 3rds, it's not surprising that players will think about how to react to such a build. If Flash had played standard, M18M would've surely followed suit. Tell me then. What is your standard build?Because the "standard" build differs for each person and Flash's standard build was getting quick 3rd. Standard build doesnt always have to involve 3-4 fact into 3 base 2-1 timing. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:51 jidolboy wrote: Tell me then. What is your standard build?Because the "standard" build differs for each person and Flash's standard build was getting quick 3rd. Standard build doesnt always have to involve 3-4 fact into 3 base 2-1 timing. I think most people on TL generally subscribe to the definition of standard as something that will defend cheese. But will be disadvantageous towards a greedy build. Obviously when it comes to progamer builds it's a little more complicated than that. But for you to just say "standard differs from person to person" IMO makes absolutely no sense. Because from my years here I've rarely if ever seen it used in other context. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On March 13 2012 05:15 baubo wrote: I think most people on TL generally subscribe to the definition of standard as something that will defend cheese. But will be disadvantageous towards a greedy build. Obviously when it comes to progamer builds it's a little more complicated than that. But for you to just say "standard differs from person to person" IMO makes absolutely no sense. Because from my years here I've rarely if ever seen it used in other context. Maybe our thoughts on word "standard" might be different. For me, a "standard" build is a build most commonly used per player. Like in 2010, Flash's standard was 14cc vs Zerg. But other player such as Fantasy would have used 1 Rax FE as their "standard". | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On March 13 2012 05:15 baubo wrote: I think most people on TL generally subscribe to the definition of standard as something that will defend cheese. But will be disadvantageous towards a greedy build. Obviously when it comes to progamer builds it's a little more complicated than that. But for you to just say "standard differs from person to person" IMO makes absolutely no sense. Because from my years here I've rarely if ever seen it used in other context. Standard does not equal cautious as you imply. I'd argue that a year or so ago 12nex was standard in PvT, but it certainly wasn't cautious. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
I think you guys are marching down the wrong path. Whether or not a player is reacting to a "standard" or a "tendency a certain player has" or whatever, the questions that issues that should be discussed are: 1) repeatability of performance 2) sustainability of the edge (the difference between this and (1) is that (1) asks what would happen in a BoX right now with X arbitrarily large, while (2) essentially asks how long before this "counter" is made irrelevant) The reason why I cannot see dropping Flash below #1 on PR is that these wins against him are neither easily repeated, nor are they especially sustainable. There is zero reason to think that any Protoss player has an advantage against Flash in a Bo3+ and now that Flash knows that these "openings" exist he can easily close them. | ||
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dobrzeee
Poland71 Posts
When you analyse Flash recent games, these bunker rushes were another abuse. They were crafted not to win outright (but vs Best it did anyway) but to secure stable advantage. M18M defended but lost some probes, stopped mining and ended behind. In a game vs Soulkey he managed to delay gas and lair tech, skip turrets and get free scv scouting when lings were busy attacking bunker. Even with this early advantage I am sure SK would fight better and possibly win if Flash didnt abuse shortest path to SK high ground and third. I mean Flash still deserves 1st place, but you must see that those 2 loses are straight consequences of his style and cannot be considered only random upsets. They were something as normal as Flash 200/200 army rolling toss playing "standard". | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
On March 13 2012 09:20 dobrzeee wrote: [...] I mean Flash still deserves 1st place, but you must see that those 2 loses are straight consequences of his style and cannot be considered only random upsets. They were something as normal as Flash 200/200 army rolling toss playing "standard". No style is perfect. There's no build has no holes at all that can't be exploited in some or the other way. Funny thing is, nobody has found a way yet to do so with Flash's style. Which makes it as perfect (plus the execution part of course) as anybody can get. Dear essentially benefited from his exploitation of Flash's scouting pattern that left him unprepared for the reavers. And M18M's victory was also due only to a lack of (successful) scouting. I agree with Mortality in saying those were only coincidental losses in the sense that they could happen to any player. It's not a flaw in Flash's play. It's just the volatility of the game. | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On March 13 2012 10:09 Spekulatius wrote: No style is perfect. There's no build has no holes at all that can't be exploited in some or the other way. Funny thing is, nobody has found a way yet to do so with Flash's style. Which makes it as perfect (plus the execution part of course) as anybody can get. Dear essentially benefited from his exploitation of Flash's scouting pattern that left him unprepared for the reavers. And M18M's victory was also due only to a lack of (successful) scouting. I agree with Mortality in saying those were only coincidental losses in the sense that they could happen to any player. It's not a flaw in Flash's play. It's just the volatility of the game. The flaws in Flash's play is exactly what caused his losses. Both players found a very specific characteristic of his play and exploited it. | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
That's ridiculous though. His play is not flawed in the sense that he can't adapt based on scouting. The style he has is so safe and so effective that it granted him his impeccable record until he got stopped. We can safely assume Flash would've held Dear's speed shuttle reaver drops if he had seen the supports bay, despite building his 3rd already. Although, I give you that, it's tough to say Flash was gonna hold M18M's proxy gates+robo if he had seen it after building his 3rd. The big question we have to ask is: is Flash's play exploitable in so far as there's a recipe to beating him? Is there a way other players/other protosses can continuously take advantage of his playstyle? And I don't think this can be said (yet). As long as Flash's losses can be attributed to tragic misreads or proxied all-in strategies which represent statistical swings more than legit faulty play there's no way to doubt his dominance, his position on the ranking or the well-roundedness of his style imo. | ||
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dobrzeee
Poland71 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
In the entire PL, Flash's style is in one of the least safe echelon. Vs Soo, he made a huge gamble of rushing in with a handful of units. Vs Stork, if Stork have even attempt to move his goons to deflect drops, Flash's build would be completely nullified and have to play from behind. Same deal vs BeSt, Flash got lucky as BeSt only know what hit him when Flash already got 4 Marines with a bunker in the process of being planted. Flash is the most abusive player of the entire season and that's a the biggest reason that contribute to his wins. | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 13 2012 11:12 Xiphos wrote:Flash is the most abusive player Sorry if this is stating the obvious? Flash is always trying to play mindgames and take advantage of what his opponent might be thinking; that (his "enlightenment," if you will) is what turned him from 2008/9-can-only-play-PL Flash into today's God Flash. It's "abusing" what his opponents would do under normal circumstances; Flash, being smart, can often deduce this from his scans. Dear and M18M thought outside the box a bit, tried to guess what Flash couldn't scout/adapt to, and came up with winning timing attacks. It's not impossible for other players to duplicate, but unfortunately they'll have to prepare something special for just about every match against Flash; he improvises and reacts better than any other progamer (though once in a while, he'll be sort of stubborn...) | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 13 2012 11:04 dobrzeee wrote: Flash could play only little more safe. If he was that good it would be enough to win anyway especially with his superior mechanics and gamesence. But he didnt and those loses can be described as bad decision making. Its unlikely that other players could lose this way because they are more aware of early aggression and they are not overconfident. Dear admited that he didnt have good results with this build in practice with other terrans. Probably because they didnt play as greedy as Flash. It's not as if "Flash only wins because he is greedy." If being greedy is all it takes, then why aren't any other Terrans able to replicate his play and success? And it's not as if players don't try to all-in or win with timing attacks against him. Usually he blocks them convincingly. Nor can it really be said that "Flash is greedy because he is overconfident." Flash gets away with what he does because he understands the game better than any other Terran, including Fantasy who I'd like to see eventually get a #1 on PR. He is always a step ahead and only falls behind when caught off guard. So what are you saying? That because he CAN be caught off guard that this somehow makes him less of a genius? Starcraft is a game of educated guessing. Nobody can guess right 100% of the time. Nobody has found a way to duplicate Flash's "greed." Nobody has found a reliable way to punish him for it. With the right maps and metagame there are a few who can manage. Stork. Jangbi. Bisu. But nobody has it against Flash right now. As I've said before, that may change in OSL when Flash is forced to play on maps that are bad for Terran (Outlier, Chain Reaction), but we'll see. | ||
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nbaker
United States1342 Posts
It's ridiculous to think that Flash should just 'win' games by playing standard. Things like 'game sense' and 'perfect macro' are generally labels we give to things we don't understand in progames. Flash obviously has good mechanics, but most progamers can macro almost perfectly. The reason he has more stuff is he makes builds that squeeze out the most economy based on what he knows/thinks the player is up to. Obviously, this makes Flash vulnerable in certain situations, but the fact that he is right so often is a testament to how great he is at the game. Flash #1 PR for sure imo. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
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Trias
Netherlands53 Posts
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Soulkey 5. Leta 6. Crazy-Hydra 7. Best 8. Jaedong 9. Last 10. Dear + Show Spoiler + This actually turns out to be the same as the ranking you get if you order the players by #wins-#losses over the entire SPL season. Nonetheless, it feels about right. Can we leave the flash #1 debate behind and actually focus on the more difficult issues this month: 1. Should Bisu drop-off the PR entirely? 2. Should Soo make an appearance, despite sucking for the first 2 rounds of proleague? 3. What order should Soulkey and Leta appear? 4. What order should Crazy-Hydra/Best/JD appear? 5. What about Last/Turn/Dear? | ||
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
Hard to say about Soulkey and Leta. SK had the slightly harder opponents (3/4 of TBLS within 2 weeks? dang), but lost in the head-to-head. Both died to Flash, but Leta managed to take down Jaedong who beat SK. I think I'd actually give 4th to Leta, but it could really go either way. SoO should get CBNC. Despite his fails, he finished this round 6-0, better than any other player. Turn, sorry bro, but your last two games have beengod awful. Goodbye, and hope to see you back on the PR again someday. Not so sure about Last as #9 either. Everyone's so quick to penalize Bisu for losing 3 games (2 since the last PR), but Last lost 4 in a row (3 since the last PR). At the risk of sounding like an unreasonable fangirl... I'm still going to suggest Dear at 9, Bisu at 10, and Last as CBNC. Idk why you would drop a guy from 6 to off the PR for going 2-2, but raise a guy from nothing to 9 for going 1-3 lol | ||
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