EPTPower Rank Discussion Thread - Page 35
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GTR
51693 Posts
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On March 13 2012 20:18 GTR wrote: all i see from soo is that he rides off 3 hatch hydra busts in zvp. Indeed. That's why I'm not advocating an actual PR spot. But still, hydra bust or not, he still won 6 games against a few decent players, including Stats and Light (although I admit it looked a lot like Light killed himself that game), and should get some kind of shout-out or acknowledgement for his solid, even if not inspiring performances. It's not really his fault that Protosses can't defend hydra busts ._. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On March 13 2012 20:18 GTR wrote: all i see from soo is that he rides off 3 hatch hydra busts in zvp. This. I hate Soo. It is frustrating to see him win against P that same way all the time. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
@ Flash being greedy, "everything dies to something" is a saying in another competitive scene you guys probably haven't heard of. The conventional wisdom is to just play your own game and make changes that maximise in game that will give the edge over your opponents. Flash has lost like this many times before and has also won ALOT precisely because of "greed", the point is he wins on average. There have been some pretty amazing games in the past where Flash did play "standard" and got owned by mind games, that is Flashes weakness, if you cause him to make the wrong call your chances have gone up since his response won't be perfectly optimized to counter w/e it is your doing. Btw this is a lot harder than what you would think, Flash will count your workers, look at your army size, look at army composition and position. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On March 13 2012 21:12 Mortality wrote: SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details. Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves. When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing. He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won. | ||
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dobrzeee
Poland71 Posts
When you look at Fantasy play, he seem so mortal. He is basing on improvisation and mechanics so his edge is rather small. But he wins consistently and can comeback from unfavourable possition like vs Jaehoon or vs skyhigh. I think Flash vs Fantasy BOX now would be so epic and possibly go into the final match but still i would bet on Flash because sometimes Fantasy is just getting silly then we see him with open mouth, floating his buildings and not typing gg :D My ranking: 1.Flash 2.Fantasy 3.Stork 4.Leta 5. JD 6. SK 7. Best 8. Last 9. Bisu 10. Dear I put JD on 5 because we talk about power and JD should get credit just for being Jaedong. He returned to his standard form and Im sure everyone is more scared facing JD than SK. Best and Last was solid all season long, both of them had moment of crisis but too small to drop them from top10. You can think that I place Bisu on 9th only because of that SKT logo in signature. Of course his form is much worse than last season and his games are not inspiring, but he is still favoured against any zerg and has the same flashes of genius and fear factor as Jaedong. It would be perfectly fine to drop his off the list if there was more competition for last spots. Soo and CH have good records, however they won against week opponents mostly in their best mu and in uninspiring fashion. Effort, Hydra and Baby have very mixed results. Turn had 100% winrate with some lucky and risky strategies but his basic skill is lacking so he was struggling lately. I decided to give that place to Dear whos gamelist is quite funny. He played with 4 terrans, 2 games with every one of them. He won some games with slumping or bad vs T players and had one notable game vs Flash. He is even more sniper than soo or CH but he have the best record from those 3. Thats why i placed him on 10. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On March 14 2012 01:32 dobrzeee wrote: + Show Spoiler + Every Flash build is more or less hard counter to standard play . So you can either see him winning decisively to someone who tries to play as usual, losing to player with far superior mechanics (i think its impossible :D), losing by silly mistake (not likely when he is no longer injured), or losing to build based on some very likely assumptions like he did in last two games. That tendency to exploit Flash patterns is good. It will probably lead Flash to play more safe and make his "standard games" more even. At least in TvP. When you look at Fantasy play, he seem so mortal. He is basing on improvisation and mechanics so his edge is rather small. But he wins consistently and can comeback from unfavourable possition like vs Jaehoon or vs skyhigh. I think Flash vs Fantasy BOX now would be so epic and possibly go into the final match but still i would bet on Flash because sometimes Fantasy is just getting silly then we see him with open mouth, floating his buildings and not typing gg :D My ranking: 1.Flash 2.Fantasy 3.Stork 4.Leta 5. JD 6. SK 7. Best 8. Last 9. Bisu 10. Dear I put JD on 5 because we talk about power and JD should get credit just for being Jaedong. He returned to his standard form and Im sure everyone is more scared facing JD than SK. Best and Last was solid all season long, both of them had moment of crisis but too small to drop them from top10. You can think that I place Bisu on 9th only because of that SKT logo in signature. Of course his form is much worse than last season and his games are not inspiring, but he is still favoured against any zerg and has the same flashes of genius and fear factor as Jaedong. It would be perfectly fine to drop his off the list if there was more competition for last spots. Soo and CH have good records, however they won against week opponents mostly in their best mu and in uninspiring fashion. Effort, Hydra and Baby have very mixed results. Turn had 100% winrate with some lucky and risky strategies but his basic skill is lacking so he was struggling lately. I decided to give that place to Dear whos gamelist is quite funny. He played with 4 terrans, 2 games with every one of them. He won some games with slumping or bad vs T players and had one notable game vs Flash. He is even more sniper than soo or CH but he have the best record from those 3. Thats why i placed him on 10. Eh.. I have trouble counting Last as "solid all season long" =/ And the only reason i would agree with Fantasy vs Flash BoX being Epic, is that Fantasy is a master of preparation, and always up his games several notches coming into a BoX. I think right now on a single Bo1 game, Flash is still pretty far ahead of every1 else. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On March 13 2012 19:47 Trias wrote: What about: 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Soulkey 5. Leta 6. Crazy-Hydra 7. Best 8. Jaedong 9. Last 10. Dear + Show Spoiler + This actually turns out to be the same as the ranking you get if you order the players by #wins-#losses over the entire SPL season. Nonetheless, it feels about right. Can we leave the flash #1 debate behind and actually focus on the more difficult issues this month: 1. Should Bisu drop-off the PR entirely? 2. Should Soo make an appearance, despite sucking for the first 2 rounds of proleague? 3. What order should Soulkey and Leta appear? 4. What order should Crazy-Hydra/Best/JD appear? 5. What about Last/Turn/Dear? I would say this is pretty accurate IMO. CH should definitely be in there for showing somewhat solid play to gain 8-2 . | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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VGhost
United States3621 Posts
On March 13 2012 21:59 TrainSamurai wrote: When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing. He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won. Neo.G_Soulkey is 3-3 since the last PR, and 12-6 by my count overall this season. His games in order this period: W vs Shuttle. Shuttle is 0-3 this season, but has only played 3 games - God only knows why, as he was probably STX's best Protoss last year and Dear and mini aren't that good. His three losses are to Jangbi, sHy, and Soulkey, so you can't tell anything one way or the other from them. Verdict: Expected win. W vs Bisu. Speaks for itself. Verdict: good win. L vs Flash. Completely expected. Verdict: good loss. L vs Leta. Leta is 5-1 vs Zerg this season; his only loss is to ZerO and he's 1-1 vs ZerO on the season. His other wins are Jaedong, Crazy-Hydra, and s2. Also he's Leta, #3 TvZ ELO. Verdict: good loss. L vs Jaedong. Jaedong is 5-1 JvZ on the season; his sole loss is to EffOrt. Verdict: good loss. W vs TurN. TurN's a good, but not a solid player and TvZ is his worst matchup. But he has beaten Hydra this season. Verdict: Expected win. By my count, Soulkey's beaten the players he should (Shuttle and TurN), lost to the players he should (Flash, Leta, and Jaedong), and won one game in a significant upset (vs. Bisu). With no one else being particularly spectacular of the players currently below him, he certainly shouldn't drop much. If he falls any lower than #5, there should be some raised eyebrows. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 14 2012 02:55 VGhost wrote: Neo.G_Soulkey is 3-3 since the last PR, and 12-6 by my count overall this season. His games in order this period: W vs Shuttle. Shuttle is 0-3 this season, but has only played 3 games - God only knows why, as he was probably STX's best Protoss last year and Dear and mini aren't that good. His three losses are to Jangbi, sHy, and Soulkey, so you can't tell anything one way or the other from them. Verdict: Expected win. W vs Bisu. Speaks for itself. Verdict: good win. L vs Flash. Completely expected. Verdict: good loss. L vs Leta. Leta is 5-1 vs Zerg this season; his only loss is to ZerO and he's 1-1 vs ZerO on the season. His other wins are Jaedong, Crazy-Hydra, and s2. Also he's Leta, #3 TvZ ELO. Verdict: good loss. L vs Jaedong. Jaedong is 5-1 JvZ on the season; his sole loss is to EffOrt. Verdict: good loss. W vs TurN. TurN's a good, but not a solid player and TvZ is his worst matchup. But he has beaten Hydra this season. Verdict: Expected win. By my count, Soulkey's beaten the players he should (Shuttle and TurN), lost to the players he should (Flash, Leta, and Jaedong), and won one game in a significant upset (vs. Bisu). With no one else being particularly spectacular of the players currently below him, he certainly shouldn't drop much. If he falls any lower than #5, there should be some raised eyebrows. This, pretty much. Since we are comparing Soulkey and Jaedong (because I think nearly everyone has the top 4 as Flash, Fantasy, Stork and Leta in that order), let me add to your post... In R3 Jaedong has done this: Win vs Mini, who is 2-2 this season (and lifetime in important games). Although he certainly looked good vs Effort, that just isn't much to go on. So, looking at his stats from prelims and minor leagues I see he is 3-14 lifetime. Ouch. JD win is expected. Win vs Orion. Orion only has 1 W in his last 10 ZvZ and is 6-18 lifetime and is 0-2 in ZvZ this season. Ironically his last W was over JD. Expected win. Loss vs Leta. Pretty one-sided game. Leta also butchered Soulkey, also on the same map. Given JD's recent ZvT form and the map (im)balance, I think this loss was expected. Win vs Soulkey. This actually matters for something since we are comparing these 2 head-to-head. But, again, I've been saying for a while that JD is standing out as the best ZvZer right now, but looks less balanced overall. Good win. Win vs Perfectman. PMan is 8-12 lifetime and 4-6 in his past 10 PvZ (both 40%), 0-1 this season. Expected win. So we can observe: -Soulkey has a worse record this round -BUT Soulkey has faced harder opponents with 4 S-class Zerg killers in the world (Flash, Bisu, JD and Leta), whereas JD only faced 1 S-class Zerg killer (Leta) as well as 1 high A-class Zerg killer (Soulkey himself). Looking out at the entire season... -JD shows stronger ZvZ with his only loss to Effort, where he had a BO disadvantage. His second game against Modesty stands out as brilliant. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvT resume. Both have lost to Flash and Leta. JD has also lost to Canata, while Soulkey also lost to FBH (a stronger TvZer) with both those extra losses on Ground Zero. JD only has 2 ZvT wins over Mind and over Ssak. The win vs Ssak was a 5 pool against FE with JD scouting in the correct direction, which although still a win shows us very little. Soulkey's 4 wins are Bogus (a solid but not great TvZer who is 58% lifetime vs Z, 59% last 12 months, 2-2 this season), Piano, Sea and Turn. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvP resume as well. Most important in that is his win over Bisu, but he's also tackled Movie who has a strong PvZ history. He's beaten Sun and Shuttle as well, but neither of those wins stands out. His only loss was to Best, who ALSO beat Jaedong. Meanwhile, JD also lost to Snow and has beaten M18M (weak PvZ), Free (weak right now at PvZ), Flying (weak PvZ and an EPIC FAIL game), as well as Mini and PerfectMan. I see Soulkey as the stronger candidate based on results this season, which accounts for all games played in the last 6 months. In order to get JD as being stronger on paper, you really need to go out to more like 12 months when he was destroying Terrans left and right and qualifying for semifinals. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On March 14 2012 07:05 Mortality wrote: This, pretty much. Since we are comparing Soulkey and Jaedong (because I think nearly everyone has the top 4 as Flash, Fantasy, Stork and Leta in that order), let me add to your post... In R3 Jaedong has done this: Win vs Mini, who is 2-2 this season (and lifetime in important games). Although he certainly looked good vs Effort, that just isn't much to go on. So, looking at his stats from prelims and minor leagues I see he is 3-14 lifetime. Ouch. JD win is expected. Win vs Orion. Orion only has 1 W in his last 10 ZvZ and is 6-18 lifetime and is 0-2 in ZvZ this season. Ironically his last W was over JD. Expected win. Loss vs Leta. Pretty one-sided game. Leta also butchered Soulkey, also on the same map. Given JD's recent ZvT form and the map (im)balance, I think this loss was expected. Win vs Soulkey. This actually matters for something since we are comparing these 2 head-to-head. But, again, I've been saying for a while that JD is standing out as the best ZvZer right now, but looks less balanced overall. Good win. Win vs Perfectman. PMan is 8-12 lifetime and 4-6 in his past 10 PvZ (both 40%), 0-1 this season. Expected win. So we can observe: -Soulkey has a worse record this round -BUT Soulkey has faced harder opponents with 4 S-class Zerg killers in the world (Flash, Bisu, JD and Leta), whereas JD only faced 1 S-class Zerg killer (Leta) as well as 1 high A-class Zerg killer (Soulkey himself). Looking out at the entire season... -JD shows stronger ZvZ with his only loss to Effort, where he had a BO disadvantage. His second game against Modesty stands out as brilliant. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvT resume. Both have lost to Flash and Leta. JD has also lost to Canata, while Soulkey also lost to FBH (a stronger TvZer) with both those extra losses on Ground Zero. JD only has 2 ZvT wins over Mind and over Ssak. The win vs Ssak was a 5 pool against FE with JD scouting in the correct direction, which although still a win shows us very little. Soulkey's 4 wins are Bogus (a solid but not great TvZer who is 58% lifetime vs Z, 59% last 12 months, 2-2 this season), Piano, Sea and Turn. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvP resume as well. Most important in that is his win over Bisu, but he's also tackled Movie who has a strong PvZ history. He's beaten Sun and Shuttle as well, but neither of those wins stands out. His only loss was to Best, who ALSO beat Jaedong. Meanwhile, JD also lost to Snow and has beaten M18M (weak PvZ), Free (weak right now at PvZ), Flying (weak PvZ and an EPIC FAIL game), as well as Mini and PerfectMan. I see Soulkey as the stronger candidate based on results this season, which accounts for all games played in the last 6 months. In order to get JD as being stronger on paper, you really need to go out to more like 12 months when he was destroying Terrans left and right and qualifying for semifinals. Last round JD vs: Best who has shown monstrous PvZ Snow who trained very hard to beat JD last yr so I say he has a much higher chance than a normal protoss Canata who prepared a completely new build ( I'm sure when u play in familar territory your plays will be much crisper) Flash ZvZ JD beat a zvz sniper twice and also beat SK, I don't think SK managed to kill a single drone with his zerglings in the earlier part of the game. ZvP Soulkey abused Bisu wall( strange you mention the 5 pool but gloss over this) ZvT SK beat Bogus Not saying they both should be knocked out. They're both very good this season, except you just expect more from JD but didn't get it so that leaves you more dissatisfied. | ||
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dobrzeee
Poland71 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2553 Posts
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nodule
Canada931 Posts
It means that gut feeling (subjective opinion of strength) is the main determining factor. | ||
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VGhost
United States3621 Posts
On March 14 2012 07:58 dobrzeee wrote: You are biased. JD won zvz 3 times in the row from unfavourable BO (maybe even BO loss) including zvz sniper Modesty and Soulkey himself. And you say SK win over Bisu is crucial when comparing these two players. Sure, that win looks good on paper but go watch it. You say 5pool against ssak doesnt counts then why you treat ling runby vs no defense as something that make difference. JD did better than SK since last PR and he has the same record from entire season. Conclusion - JD should be higher than SK. You want place JD lower than he deserves only because he is not as dominant as Flash right now. I'll freely admit I'm biased, though I try to avoid that when making arguments (also JvZ is the best thing in BW when it's operative, but that's a different discussion). Anyway, here's the game in question, Soulkey vs Bisu. Yes, it's a ling runby. At the same time, it's more impressive if you can time a runby vs Bisu than if you do the same thing to Sun (or even BeSt who is notoriously bad vs. early game shenanigans). By the same token, it would be more impressive to proxy-reaver Flash than to do it to FBH. On the other hand, it's not just a successful cheese: there was a major error on Bisu's part. He never scouted Soulkey's first expansion (at the 3 o'clock base) and didn't even start looking for it until the ling attack was en route despite getting no scouting on the natural. From the evidence (Soulkey's careful keeping the 1st probe in his main + the usual non-natural 1st expansion will mostly be to the main across the map from the Protoss main) it's even entirely possible that Soulkey went for the runby based on that failure from Bisu. One way or another it's not one of the more impressive wins against Bisu that will ever be accomplished, but still - it's Bisu. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On March 14 2012 07:58 dobrzeee wrote: You are biased. JD won zvz 3 times in the row from unfavourable BO (maybe even BO loss) including zvz sniper Modesty and Soulkey himself. And you say SK win over Bisu is crucial when comparing these two players. Sure, that win looks good on paper but go watch it. You say 5pool against ssak doesnt counts then why you treat ling runby vs no defense as something that make difference. JD did better than SK since last PR and he has the same record from entire season. Conclusion - JD should be higher than SK. You want place JD lower than he deserves only because he is not as dominant as Flash right now. There's a massive difference between Jaedong's 5-pool and SK's Ling Bust. Jaedong blindly commited to an all-in build that could have easily died had some things not go his way (scouting the wrong way, cross spawn, safe build by T). Soulkey knew exactly what's going on on his opponent's side (granted by the luck that he scouted right). Had Bisu reinforced a sturdier wall, he could have just droned instead of Linged, and it could have transitioned into a relatively normal game (he still would have wasted a few Larvae, and an unfavourable position of a 3rd, but that's a lot less deadly than a failed 5-pool). Bisu didn't make a huge mistake either. One will wanna keep his scout probe in Zerg's main to keep an eye on his tech (bringing it out means kissing "going back in" goodbye). The 3rd's position usually isn't important, and can be left till later (unless there's a surprised bust like what happened, of course), especially in this case when the "likely third" is cross-map. Now im not saying SK didn't all-in, he did. But there's more thought and less risk in his build than Jaedong's 5-pool. | ||
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Sethronu
United Kingdom450 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
And there is a HUGE difference between a 5 pool and a timed all-in or a proxy rax. I find it hard to believe that people on this forum do not understand that difference. | ||
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