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Tenhou
1052 Posts
On June 22 2011 02:14 Release wrote: Hard Counter Hyvaa? Hard counter is Stork. I think stork has gone 6-0 against Bisu in past 6 games. Because we're talking about his PvZ and Stork obviously plays Z, right? | ||
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Dagon
Romania264 Posts
On June 21 2011 23:19 Oystein wrote: Nothing wrong with that, its Bisu, gods gift to BW after all. When did Bisu became Flash's gift to BW?! | ||
blahz0r
3030 Posts
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On June 22 2011 06:46 Raz0r wrote: If his map control, game sense, and scouting is so good in PvZ, why doesn't this skill translate to PvT? Isn't PvZ more multitasking oriented while PvT more positionally oriented, and if he has good positioning in PvZ, then why not in PvT? He suicides into tanks far too often to be successful, makes errors like stasis at the front which creates wall between tanks at back and his army, etc. | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On June 22 2011 06:46 Raz0r wrote: If his map control, game sense, and scouting is so good in PvZ, why doesn't this skill translate to PvT? Isn't PvZ more multitasking oriented while PvT more positionally oriented, and if he has good positioning in PvZ, then why not in PvT? because bisu is most notorious for his multitasking and harass. zergs usually have 3 bases all over the map and are forced to focus on defending them on the other hand, terrans just need to plant mines and siege up in their main and their nat, and harass damage will be minimal. | ||
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Funnytoss
Taiwan1471 Posts
On June 22 2011 06:46 Raz0r wrote: If his map control, game sense, and scouting is so good in PvZ, why doesn't this skill translate to PvT? Isn't PvZ more multitasking oriented while PvT more positionally oriented, and if he has good positioning in PvZ, then why not in PvT? I remember there was an interview in which Bisu talked about PvT being somewhat difficult because he found it hard to keep tabs on what the Terran was doing, since turrets limit information greatly. Since that's such a key to his play in PvZ, that could be one reason for the lack of success in the PvT matchup. If you watch Stork's replays, you'll notice that his observer placement is excellent, and that's something Bisu should definitely learn from him. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:52 iNfeRnaL wrote: Well that article was less than I expected it to be. Basically it just was a longer writeup than usual that says: some of Bisu's biggest strenghts in PvZ are his saircontrol, probecontrol and hilarious multitasking. I won't even count that "control group" thingy as it is obvious to put goon/temp in same group and zealots seperately. Literally every Protoss over C does that. I could write a lot more about Bisu's PvZ because as far as that gets as a foreigner [and obviously a lot worse] my style really IS Bisu's style in PvZ because he's the guy I taught myself everything off. Also he is the main reason why I love sairs. It's really so much more to his PvZ than most people even can understand, it's kind of hard to explain. Bisu never misses a probe, pylon or anything, even the way he sets up his workers follows the same setup. And that's where the magic already starts. How many games you saw Bisu hitting with ~8 Zealots and even +1 on those when the Zerg literally had 10 lings and 1 sunken, leaving you wondering why a Progamer does play like a little C+ noobek? It's just that timing, seriously, Bisu is not innovative when it comes down to "creating" own buildorders - in fact the atual Bisu build should becalled the "DaezanG build" - but in perfectionizing them. And be sure he's hilariously good at it. So good that it leaves Zergs wondering how the FUCKING hell this guy could attack nearly 5 seconds faster than ANY other Protoss they ever play, even his sairs seem to always net atleast 2 overlord kills; sometimes a lot more. It really really shows how good his buildorders are, you can't copy them and make them work as he does either. It's a perfect mix of timing, knowledge of how to abuse this very timing window to the maximum and the control to actually make all of this happen. Imagine Stork - the arguably 2nd best person in PvZ to hit at his first zealstrike with at lets say 7:25? Well then progamers would be used to have this strike hit at say 7:27 because their practice partners are not Stork. Now Imagine Bisu. He's gonna hit them at 7:23 instead. 4 seconds are WORLDS in terms of buildorders. The one thing I really have to agree with the OP's article with is the speed that is Bisu. You can't do the things he does if you're not that fast. Normal people do slight macro mistakes while harassing with the Zeals, keeping the sairs active 24/7 and expanding. Obviously, there's lot's of things to do in this period of time. However, you could give Bisu twice as much to do and he'd still sit there and do it with a smile on his face. Atleast in PvZ. He also has the sickest storming of them all in PvZ, which kind of comes naturally to you if you love PvZ tho, personally after 1,5 year in ToT), my storming was absurd good as well [funny note about it is that you'd fail completely against "bad" players sometimes trying to predict their movements], but the level of storming Bisu performs is sometimes seriously "imba". You often think wtf, this guy seems to know where the opponent will go before he even moved, eh? Erase the seem. He DOES know. That's what 10.000++++ PvZ do for you. That's already one part where Bisu's biggest strenght really shines through. Game sense. This guy has senses they're better than your knowledge with a fucking maphack turned on. Bisu keeps saying scout a lot with your sair. I think some people misunderstand that a lot. We foreigners think of scouting as in: check opponents base for tech structures. The most obvious scouting timing is before scourge pop and slightly after again to confirm no tech switch has been done. There's 2-3 more such timings later on and that's about it with his actual "scouting"! The rest he does with sairs is mapcontrol and ovi-harass which isn't actual "scouting" for tech but rather he to constantly keep track off the movement of your opponent! Bisu most definitely always knows in which area the opposing army is currently residing in and adjusts his own army position according to information, if he has control of the middle. This whole part is often totally overlooked - but that's all part of what a progamer considers "scouting". I guess his macro needs little "explanation", he's just better at making units than almost every other Protoss (except Best, the waster) in PvZ - which is as the OP kind of explained - based on his expansion timings that allows him to always have some more units at a given time. Reaver timing is incredibly important in PvZ nowadays btw - not something that hard to pull of tho. The thing hardest to explain about Bisu is his decision making, he always knows when to retreat and when to engage a fight, with some of the most delicious micro on earth when actually doing so. This is part of the reason why Bisu's decision making sometimes might seem a little odd and creates a lot of "wtf" moments. He perfectly knows on how to engage a line of lurkers with zealots so that only very few ones - except if the Zerg target fires - of them will hurt which makes him often plow through lines of those as if they we're nothing. To even see and notice such things even in a VOD is hard for an untrained eye, now imagine how fucking hard it is to pull that off especially when you have 3 other controlgroups of units to micro, storms to put up, observers to dance and macro to do meanwhile... Without being able to perform such micro actions simultaneously it's not really possible to do the decisions he does because if you can't - the correct decision for Bisu might just be the worst one possible for you. To sum it up, if you want to be even nearly as good as Bisu in PvZ get used to the thought to have to play 10k of games against the very best Zergs of the world, then you might be able to understand but still not replicate the "how" he does it. I could go on writing more and more on Bisu, but people might end up taking this as a personal love letter to Kim Taek Yong himself if so. I also love bisu, nothing wrong to send him love letters. Also that I learned to p v z watching ur vods from TSL1. Just wanted to add on how awesome/different bisu and his p v z is. His main strength is that his scouting and multitasking allow him to do stuff that other protosses just can't do. It all starts from early game. If zerg doesn't have more than 4 lings he will send out his first zea to one natural while lings are chasing probes in the other. If zerg notices and pumps 2-4 more lings be sure bisu will know about it and pull his zea back, delaying zerg's eco a bit. That is the kind of small things that eventually build up into his awesome timings. Later in the game, he will send a zea raid somewhere just to distract, while at the same time he is doing a templar drop AND taking a 3rd, which he can safely do because zerg will be too busy to even notice. His insane multitasking allows him to do that without piling up any money. If it is not safe to expand he will know and put down more gates and push for a timing atack which will most likely be successful. Basically he scouts very well, which allows him to make very good decisions, and because of his insane multi tasking he can pull more elaborated strategies than other protosses (i.e harras in 2 places while expanding) | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Firstly let's note ZerO beat him very cleanly and squarely recently even at a disadvantage. So the simple answer is, just play better. My first point is: even Bisu's vZ isn't THAT perfect it just appears he overwhelms so many inferior opponents with mechanics, but just like his vT it still breaks down somewhat when it comes to unit composition, tactical positioning and other little things, definitely mistakes sometimes strategy wise. Also his admittedly excellent stats are padded by the fact he just constantly gets to play weak Zerg's in PL, and probably gets his choice of map and matchup in proleague always planned well ahead of time. So you have a situation where the single best well practiced PvZ just has a constant line-up of victims to smash through. Because of his position on SKT1 he's immediately in a good place to be stomping Zergs. Now onto my second point, if we are to talk about beating him (even if there is no special trick). Let's first discuss why he wins so easily much of the time. Imo it's because most zerg's cannot handle a heavy upgraded group or sairs being constantly micro'd while Bisu is also maintaining good army comp, movement, spells AND macro/expanding/scouting. Most Protoss can only do 2 of 3, while Bisu is maybe the ONLY Protoss who can do this to it's full degree. I'm going to consider those 3 elements the main part of a Bisu-style corsair heavy PvZ. Other P because of their abilities either make too many mistakes for this to be a strong enough strategy, or they pick strategies which only need heavily 2/3 elements to lessen the mechanical difficultly. My theory for PvZ is execution of the 3 elements at once and how much they are being used to their potential. As an aside I might write a theory of these 3 elements sometime as it makes perfect sense to me; as how some players use prehaps the majority of their might in just 1 element like Horang2 (macro) to gain wins, while others like Snow use sometimes just (multitask/harass). Every Protoss imo has their own ratio between the 3 elements. (depending on what build order they use too). I'm not going to extend on my elements Theory for Zerg because it doesn't suit their style at all. For a long time the multitask/harass element (we'll call it 3) was the cause of PvZ domination. Most above average Z's eventually managed to counter 3 generally quite well and swing the favor back. Now back to Bisu, his overall elements have all improved while no other P shows the same signs of improvement. When a Zerg plays Bisu in a standard game they simply have not had the practice standard or experience in trying to deal with a P who has an all around consistent elements. They are used to practicing against people making big harass mistakes, fail on macro or cannot keep their army composition correct. If Bisu ever gets to a BO with a Zerg and the more BO PvZ's we see in the future hopefully the more other players evolve and catch up to his level. Also as a quick strategical idea, maybe just as a hypothetical someone could use some kind of unexpected ensnare timing and catch the sairs totally offguard, then immediately switch to air dominance. I dunno what all the timings would be like but the general game plan i guess would be to hold as best you can as normal, lull him into his normal air dominance (and keep the fake threat up with mutalisks still existing), then suddenly hit him at the right time, take air dominance, muta harass everywhere maybe even go to greater spire and go really crazy? :D | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On June 22 2011 08:50 infinity2k9 wrote: ......... Some nice theorycraft included, nothing more nothing less..  The thread isn't called how to beat BvZ, tho! | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
EEEW | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
This whole thread is good so I'll add my two cents on scouting: I'll start with a short link: http://www.equipped.org/21-76/ch1.pdf It's the introduction chapter of the US Army's survival guide and it contains a lot of psychological information that can help a RTS gamer. Starts with an acronym: "S - Size up the situation U - Use all your senses, undue haste makes waste R - Rember where you are V - Vanquish fear and panic I - Improvise V - Value living A - Act like the natives L - Live by wits, Learn basic skills" While not all perfectly translate to a virtual game world, the information contained in each heading really helped my ability to "scout" and to handle "stressers". Like Infernal said, most people don't know what scouting is and consider knowing what units are coming to be sufficent information. In BW where initial positioning determines so much of how you will micro. Look at your guys, look at the map and it's various pathways for armies to move, chokes to hold and ramps to block, etcetc. Are your melee units free to run at the enemy or do they have to run around your own forces to engage? Are your ranged units arced properly and do they have some room to back-step micro? Can you retreat quickly (bisu's "hotkeys" all help him do this shit)? Most importantly: do you know when, where and how the enemy is going to engage you? If you do then you have an advantage going into battle. Each race has various different ways to do it but it's important. As a toss I keep my first probe alives as long as possible and then go with a second probe probably around 3:30 making pylons and keeping intel up slightly more than the game demands. But really, the biggest problem I see with most players today and scouting happens after this early game phase and when they get to command observers. They get an obs and don't actually scout their opponant. They kinda plop it into their opponants main and then forget about it (maybe) and I think this is what infernal was getting to. Just seeing buildings isn't fully utilizing an invisible flying machine but this is getting too protoss specific (although I guess it's a Bisu thread) Hrm, done for now. Remember kids you can always get better! | ||
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JMave
Singapore1805 Posts
The real magic about him is really the ability to be at so many places at one go and optimising every single advantage. I am very impressed with his initial probe scouting as well as corsair movement. Probably control that I've not ever seen in any P player. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
On June 24 2011 00:54 JMave wrote: I think in terms of vZ, Bisu is probably one of those guys that really understands every detail of it. I was really impressed with a few games I watched where he actually prioritised zealot speed over +1 and attacked even before +1 was done. The real magic about him is really the ability to be at so many places at one go and optimising every single advantage. I am very impressed with his initial probe scouting as well as corsair movement. Probably control that I've not ever seen in any P player. +1 Is explicitly meant to get an edge on zerglings, If the opponent is not depending on them much it is normal to prioritize speed over it imho. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On June 23 2011 21:51 iNfeRnaL wrote: Some nice theorycraft included, nothing more nothing less.. The thread isn't called how to beat BvZ, tho! Yeah sorry i dunno why i wrote it when it's not actually related. Other P's playing like this is more important than beating it. On June 24 2011 04:01 ArvickHero wrote: Infinity2k9, Zero wasn't disadvantaged vs Bisu in that Neo Aztec game, especially since he deflected every attack by Bisu. Even if Protoss has 4-5 bases against a 4base turtle Zerg, he'll lose if he fails deny the fifth/sixth base of Zerg (unless Protoss is able to secure more bases himself), because Zerg is just much more efficient w/ its resource usage with that particular strategy. Well regardless of how the strategy played out, can you really say it's not a disadvantage to have equal or less bases as a Zerg for a long period of time? Of course Bisu threw away any benefit with his constant attacks up the ramp. But theoretically it still was an advantage wasn't it? He could have turtled himself then went reaver/archon free-style or something with that huge amount of gas. I see the game as ZerO taking advantage from well defend 4th base opening, which was slowly being broken away until it went way over to Bisu's side, then it got to a point where it snapped straight way back into ZerO's favour. ![[image loading]](http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4756/zerobisu.png) This is sort of how i felt advantage was, roughly no science here haha. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On June 24 2011 04:24 ninazerg wrote: Ask Bisu how to play PvT. He'll probably just sadly shake his head and reply "I don't even know anymore..." Are you one of those guys that just cling to the old "Bisu sucks vT" stuffs w/o actually watching the games? When was the last time u see him lose to a non-Flash T? | ||
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Mumei
United States257 Posts
On June 24 2011 08:40 ffreakk wrote: Are you one of those guys that just cling to the old "Bisu sucks vT" stuffs w/o actually watching the games? When was the last time u see him lose to a non-Flash T? March 14th! /answering a rhetorical question | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
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